Author Topic: Players, how do you feel about me?  (Read 3902 times)

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Offline Lorric

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Players, how do you feel about me?
Hello.

My fellow players, please can you tell me how you feel about me in this game. Do you approve of what I'm doing? Do you not mind what I'm doing? Or do you dislike what I'm doing? I need to know. If my actions are welcome, or at least not a problem, then I can carry on planning and trying to organise everyone to follow a plan, whether it be mine or someone else's, or if you don't like it, then I'll just shut up and take my turns. Or maybe there are some who like what I'm doing and some who don't, then I can try and help those who do, and not bother those who don't.

I really am trying very hard to help us all you know. And I'll always respect your right to make your own decisions.

 
 

Offline Enioch

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Re: Players, how do you feel about me?
Definitely Snufflepharagus. This is a Snuffle question if ever I read one.
'Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent'  -Salvor Hardin, "Foundation"

So don't take a hammer to your computer. ;-)

 

Offline Lorric

  • 212
Re: Players, how do you feel about me?
Snufflepharagus
This is indifference, yes?

 
Re: Players, how do you feel about me?
it's a rejection of the question
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline Enioch

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Re: Players, how do you feel about me?
Essentially "I'm not answering that. I'm not getting near that question. I'm not touching that question with a ten-foot-pole."

You should not be asking this question. If there is something you'd like to do, then do it, without waiting for the others' approval. If somebody doesn't like what you're doing, he'll say it, and then you can decide to either stop what you're doing or change what you're doing to suit his needs. If you want to play grand marshal, play grand marshal. If somebody doesn't want your advice, don't offer him any.

I do not know if you expect everybody to go "oh yes, please, Lorric, command us". Do not go fishing for this. It won't happen.

But I'm not hearing that many complaints, either.
'Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent'  -Salvor Hardin, "Foundation"

So don't take a hammer to your computer. ;-)

 

Offline Lorric

  • 212
Re: Players, how do you feel about me?
Essentially "I'm not answering that. I'm not getting near that question. I'm not touching that question with a ten-foot-pole."

You should not be asking this question. If there is something you'd like to do, then do it, without waiting for the others' approval. If somebody doesn't like what you're doing, he'll say it, and then you can decide to either stop what you're doing or change what you're doing to suit his needs. If you want to play grand marshal, play grand marshal. If somebody doesn't want your advice, don't offer him any.

I do not know if you expect everybody to go "oh yes, please, Lorric, command us". Do not go fishing for this. It won't happen.

But I'm not hearing that many complaints, either.
I'm truly not fishing for compliments. It is what Spoon said, about "Lorric's single player game" and then later in the thread, and what niffiwan has been saying to me in pms, he's been questioning my motives and making wrong assumptions about me, he's put doubts in my mind. All I need to know is that I'm not stepping on any toes, and then I can go about my business with confidence, as I have been doing, but this has been getting me stressed.

 

Offline Enioch

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Re: Players, how do you feel about me?
OK, honest answer then. You have not been stepping on my toes. You have, on occasion, though, stepped close to the line.

You have done an amazing amount of work, by pre-checking the numbers of the fights and coordinating everybody. That is something to be appreciated and I would very much like you to continue doing so.

What can cause some issues, however, is the fact that you tend to present the plan to the rest of us and wait for us to comment on it, instead of letting everybody contribute to the forming of the plan. It's a thin line, and you might not even realize you're crossing it, but it can rub people the wrong way.

To make things easier, you say things like:

LORRIC: "Ok, folks, we need to defeat the Hertak. So, fleet so-and-so should do this, and fleet so-and-so should do that, because [insert math here]".

You are presenting us with a plan, complete with predictions, goals etc. You are telling us what we should do (most of the time, they are legitimately good moves). However, in this example, you're not even taking into account the possibility that other players might not even want to engage the Hertak. We might want to engage their escorts. It might even be a better idea (in this case I don't think so, but you get the idea).

What would be much better and more appreciated by everybody would be something like this:

LORRIC: "Wow, those Hertak look threatening. I think we should dogpile them because [reason]. I could run some numbers on that. Anybody got any better ideas?"

This way you allow the other players to contribute in the setting of our overarching and immediate goals and keep providing the much-appreciated number-crunching, and tactical analysis.
'Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent'  -Salvor Hardin, "Foundation"

So don't take a hammer to your computer. ;-)

 

Offline Dragon

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  • The sky is the limit.
Re: Players, how do you feel about me?
Good post. A tactical advisor/reckoner without a specific command could be of use. He could provoke discussion/brainstorming on tactics for the next turn and crunch the numbers when prompted. Not everyone is dedicated enough to actually run the results of an order through a calculator, I mostly rely on ballpark estimates and I guess most other commanders do the same. Personally though, I'd prefer Spoon to issue "missing" orders, should somebody miss the deadline. This is bound to happen from time to time, I'm afraid, so Spoon, being the GM here, should decide what happens in such case.

 

Offline swashmebuckle

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    • The Perfect Band
Re: Players, how do you feel about me?
Y'all are gonna feel silly for letting Lorric coordinate your moves when Spoon gets pissed off and turns your factions against each other :D

 

Offline Lorric

  • 212
Re: Players, how do you feel about me?
Ah, this is nice. Thank you Enioch, Dragon. Maybe this thread can morph into a kind of suggestions thread or something. And I suppose if anyone does have a problem, this would also be a good place for it instead of cluttering up the rules/discussion thread.

When I present my stuff, I don't want to be seen as coming in as "This is the way forward. Do this, do that." I kind of feel like I just drop in my plan and then I'd like people to look at it and see what they think. I want to inspire discussion, not be some sort of general ordering people around. I can try and follow your suggestions Enioch, Dragon, maybe you can help me get things rolling when I do present my plans, as a pattern seems to have emerged that I present my plan, maybe a couple/handful of people quickly go along with it, and then I spend my days sort of chasing up those who didn't, and I think part of the problem is the plan gets lost in the shuffle.

I'll see if I can try and present next turn's suggestions more as suggestions. They are always suggestions, but I can see where you're coming from.

Really, this is all very new to me, I'm not used to being in a role like this at all, it makes me nervous, so any help would be really appreciated. I'm doing well with the plans, and when things are going well it's great, and it feels really fulfilling when the plans are put into effect and come to fruition, but I'm out of my comfort zone with this.

Y'all are gonna feel silly for letting Lorric coordinate your moves when Spoon gets pissed off and turns your factions against each other :D
Oh no, don't you be giving him any ideas like that! :lol:

 

Offline Lepanto

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Re: Players, how do you feel about me?
Thanks, Lorric and everyone. Hopefully, if these suggestions work, we'll have overcome a major source of tension, but Lorric can still do some of the strategic work that he does pretty well.
"We have now reached the point where every goon with a grievance, every bitter bigot, merely has to place the prefix, 'I know this is not politically correct, but...' in front of the usual string of insults in order to be not just safe from criticism, but actually a card, a lad, even a hero. Conversely, to talk about poverty and inequality, to draw attention to the reality that discrimination and injustice are still facts of life, is to commit the sin of political correctness. Anti-PC has become the latest cover for creeps. It is a godsend for every curmudgeon and crank, from fascists to the merely smug."
Finian O'Toole, The Irish Times, 5 May 1994

Blue Planet: The Battle Captains: Missions starring the Admirals of BP: WiH
Frontlines 2334+2335: T-V War campaign
GVB Ammit: Vasudan strike bomber
Player-Controlled Capship Modding Tutorial

 

Offline swashmebuckle

  • 210
  • Das Lied von der Turd
    • The Perfect Band
Re: Players, how do you feel about me?
Y'all are gonna feel silly for letting Lorric coordinate your moves when Spoon gets pissed off and turns your factions against each other :D
Oh no, don't you be giving him any ideas like that! :lol:
I would be surprised if Spoon wasn't already planning to set you against each other in some way after going through all the trouble of setting up the factions (and making it a multiplayer game in the first place). If you step back and look at things objectively, the play becomes a lot more interesting if there is some competitive tension between the players as opposed to just watching you crunch numbers while endless waves of faceless enemies are spawned. Spoon is too clever a game designer to stick with that forever.

It might not be a bad idea for you all to start considering your individual/faction positions if and when the game changes. In fact, you (Admirals) should probably start figuring out ways of forcing other fleets to do the fighting for you whenever possible ASAP. May the best fleet win!

 

Offline Lorric

  • 212
Re: Players, how do you feel about me?
Oh no you don't...

We have to defeat the heirarchy first anyway. I personally would be very surprised if he did that, since this seemed to be a game to push aside competitive multiplayer.

 

Offline Enioch

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Re: Players, how do you feel about me?
In fact, you (Admirals) should probably start figuring out ways of forcing other fleets to do the fighting for you whenever possible ASAP. May the best fleet win!

Absolutely not. Fightin' gives XP (=morale, and next-gen stuff), which will be of great value if we ever fight each other.
'Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent'  -Salvor Hardin, "Foundation"

So don't take a hammer to your computer. ;-)

 

Offline Lorric

  • 212
Re: Players, how do you feel about me?
I don't want us to fight each other.

 

Offline Lepanto

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    • Skype
Re: Players, how do you feel about me?
While a competitive strategy game might be fun, I don't think Spoon would take his game in that direction, and there's no evidence that he's going to do so.
"We have now reached the point where every goon with a grievance, every bitter bigot, merely has to place the prefix, 'I know this is not politically correct, but...' in front of the usual string of insults in order to be not just safe from criticism, but actually a card, a lad, even a hero. Conversely, to talk about poverty and inequality, to draw attention to the reality that discrimination and injustice are still facts of life, is to commit the sin of political correctness. Anti-PC has become the latest cover for creeps. It is a godsend for every curmudgeon and crank, from fascists to the merely smug."
Finian O'Toole, The Irish Times, 5 May 1994

Blue Planet: The Battle Captains: Missions starring the Admirals of BP: WiH
Frontlines 2334+2335: T-V War campaign
GVB Ammit: Vasudan strike bomber
Player-Controlled Capship Modding Tutorial

 

Offline swashmebuckle

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  • Das Lied von der Turd
    • The Perfect Band
Re: Players, how do you feel about me?
Competition doesn't necessarily mean actually fighting each other, it just means that there are finite resources (which there already are) and you don't all share the exact same goal (which the GM can change at any time). Spoon has already established that he can surprise you by changing the way things work (like when an enemy fleet moved in a way that your fleets can't), and you are already conveniently divided into factions with varying histories and motivations. Obviously I don't really know the rules of the game (I had no idea about the XP thing), but I think it's rather naive to play under the assumption that the current all-in-it-together fleet grind will be the way things work until the end. Don't say I didn't warn you!

Also you should probably cover Sol. That's where we live.

 

Offline Lorric

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Re: Players, how do you feel about me?
I don't think there is an XP system. But you can pump up your morale through victory in battle.

Oh and Sol, that's the loss condition of the game, if the aliens take Sol.

 

Offline Spoon

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Re: Players, how do you feel about me?
My concern here is, Lorric, is that you seem rather pushy in my eyes. In your own words you 'chase' the people down that don't hold themselves to the (your) plan.
In this post: http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=85046.msg1706272#msg1706272 you are telling everyone action for action what you 'recommend' they should be doing. And you have a tendency to directly question a person doing something that is suboptimal in your eyes. Such as here: http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=85046.msg1706340#msg1706340 I understand your motives but its really easy to look at this as if you are trying to put pressure on an other player into doing things your way.

I want every player to have some degree of agency and I want everyone to feel that they are fully in control of their own fleet. And not just copy pasting someone elses plan because they sorta feel pressured into doing so.
As Enioch said, it's a thin line. And I think you'll be on the right side of the line if you take his advice on the way you word/present your plans.

Y'all are gonna feel silly for letting Lorric coordinate your moves when Spoon gets pissed off and turns your factions against each other :D
  :drevil:
Urutorahappī!!

[02:42] <@Axem> spoon somethings wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> critically wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> im happy with these missions now
[02:44] <@Axem> well
[02:44] <@Axem> with 2 of them