[FlamingCobra]

http://freethinker.co.uk/2013/08/28/christianity-is-dying-in-england-and-in-france-catholic-priests-are-only-preaching-to-pensioners/

I'd like to discuss why this trend is happening all across Europe, not just in England and France, but not in the United States. Does it have to do with a lack of urbanization?

[Scotty]

FlamingMamba, as an attempt to keep this from getting out of hand early (because unlike many posters here, I am still religion-friendly, even if I am not religious, please expound and create a basis for discussion that is both appropriate and relevant for conversation.

Drive-by posting of links on notoriously prickly subjects is not something that's a good idea, and could be seen as deliberately trying to fan flames.

[Black Wolf]

I think that this is pretty much established now, though. It's well documented that religiosity is decreasing all over the Western world. Even in America, which is almost certainly the most religious western country (possibly excluding Italy and Ireland), atheism and irreligiousness is growing. In more... shall we say moderate countries, the decline has been steady and is well established.

Personally, I don't see how it's news any more. Demographics shift, better educated younger people are beginning to outnumber people who grew up in an age where belief was simply taken as a given, in large part because they probably weren't taught any sensible alternatives - The big bang (and cosmology as a science even) was contentious well into the middle of the twentieth century - evolution too, to a lesser extent. The coherent alternative narrative we all take for granted today has only existed in a sensible, defensible form for a relatively short period, and things take time to filter from acadaemia into the school system and broad public understanding.

That's probably why the church is still doing so well in poorer countries (see the comparison in this very article between French catholocism and African). As the internet allows greater education in poorer parts of the world, religion should start to follow a similar (if slower) path worldwide.

Good news for everyone.

[Dragon]

I think we should note something form the start. Europe is mostly Catholic, America is mostly Protestant. You'll notice "Catholic priests" in the title. Of all variations of Christianity (and even compared to Islam and Judaism, which work off the same "core"), Catholicism is the most bureaucratized and stiff. It's difficult to compare much more flexible and decentralized Protestantism to Catholicism. The latter is just too far behind the times, despite every attempt to change that. The new Pope Francis is very interested in changing that, but it'd be a long process. We'll see how this goes, but I expect religion to keep declining in importance, the question is just how quickly.

[Flak]

Ha! I'd say it is almost the same case in the US. I really have no idea if it is because urbanization or some say the media (AKA Californication), but it happens, just look at the people today. You can see many wouldn't call themselves Atheists or something like that, but they are definitely no longer Christian. My father's friend who live in Spain said many churches are abandoned, and turned into cafes. Which is actually ironic if you compare to the Eastern worlds. Where I live (Indonesia), it is very difficult in many areas just to build a church, that is if some of the more fanatic locals and corrupt government officials don't try to kick you out for it, yet countless struggled and try to have a place of worship.

[Dragon]

Well, it's pretty much universal. Even the most adaptable Protestant churches tend to resist progress and change. Religion was extremely important in early stages of human history (which is why it's still big in poorer countries), but now it's a relic which is no longer necessary. Also, it's not a recent trend. Compare the progress of literature over the ages. The first "emotional" age (Medieval) emphasized God and religion. Baroque was also religious (but to a lesser extent), and after that, Romanticism focused on Man and human emotions instead. You can observe a similar progression through "intellectual" ages, where we've come from Renaissance (God and religion were quite an important theme) to Modernism (where they were mere background). This is a natural progression and I believe the logical conclusion will be ditching religion completely, focusing entirely on Man. You can see that already in the most recent works.

[Flipside]

The UK has its own Church, the CofE, which is not aligned with the Catholic Church, which hasn't had a particularly firm hold here since Henry VIII's time.

Do you mean a lack of Urbanisation in Europe or the US (not that I was aware of such a thing in either) I am assuming you mean the US, since a lack of Urbanization in Europe would probably result in an increase in Religious influence not a decrease?

[Dragon]

I think that lack of urbanization in any place has the opposite effect, religion always had a firmer hold in rural areas. In both countries (really, all over the world), progressing urbanization usually goes hand in hand with decline of religion.

As for CofE, it is, for all intents and purposes, Catholic Church with the Queen as the Pope. Bureaucracy might be less extensive, but from what I've seen of it, it's just as stiff as the Catholic Church. Soon it might be even more, considering the new Catholic Pope. The head of CofE doesn't look like she's going to quit anytime soon.

[Flipside]

With regards to Urbanisation, that's exactly what I'm saying, that if there was a lack of it, we'd see Religious control increase because secluded communities tend to be more receptive of Religious doctrines.

With regards to CofE, I'm not stating an opinion of it, merely explaining why the Catholic Church has a limited hold in the UK.

[karajorma]

If you're equating the Queen with the Pope, you're making a big mistake about how the CoE works. The Queen is no more involved in running the CoE than she is in running the UK. The Pope's counterpart in the CoE is the Archbishop of Canterbury.


As for urbanization, in general, urbanisation leads to better education. I suspect that is the main driver.

[Flak]

Oh yes, I forgot about that part. With Modernism, people are starting to believe in logic to be the most important thing, putting religions aside. That is similar to Plato's belief. Now in post-modern society, people are shifting back to emotion, and they actually went further away from religion.

Lastly, I think nobody likes how the Catholic Church antagonize sexuality to hell and back, so am I of course. 'Darth Bento' actually tried to remove the celibacy requirement for the priests, but most of the cardinals didn't agree with him.

[NGTM-1R]

The UK has its own Church, the CofE, which is not aligned with the Catholic Church, which hasn't had a particularly firm hold here since Henry VIII's time.

More Catholics currently attend services in England than do CofE members, perversely, so I'm not sure how accurate this statement can be treated as.

[Nuke]

yay!

[Flipside]

The UK has its own Church, the CofE, which is not aligned with the Catholic Church, which hasn't had a particularly firm hold here since Henry VIII's time.

More Catholics currently attend services in England than do CofE members, perversely, so I'm not sure how accurate this statement can be treated as.

Catholics tend to attend more frequently per month, but far, far fewer people associate themselves with the Catholic church in the UK. 9%, or 1/12 people in the UK, compared to the 37.5%, over 4 times higher which is the European average (Source : Wikipedia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_by_country)

Now explain to me again how the statement that the Catholic Church has not established a particularly strong hold in the UK is 'not accurate'. Whilst the fact that fewer CofE members attend is a contributing factor, it wasn't the factor I was referring to, it was the low level of Catholicism in the UK in the first place.

Further to that, the level of attendance for both Churches has been slowly dropping for a long time, with fewer new members each generation, hence the preaching to pensioners. There's no single factor involved, but the fact remains that a lot of people in the UK don't attend Mass simply because they are not Catholic.

[MP-Ryan]

http://freethinker.co.uk/2013/08/28/christianity-is-dying-in-england-and-in-france-catholic-priests-are-only-preaching-to-pensioners/

I'd like to discuss why this trend is happening all across Europe, not just in England and France, but not in the United States. Does it have to do with a lack of urbanization?

Re: why Europe and not the US

Liberal democratic values are largely incompatible with theocratic methods of governing.  The US has become markedly more conservative and theocratic in the last 50 years.  This is in part due to a resurgence of religion in the southern US due to mass immigration, and a political resurgence of religion in non-urban areas of the US as a response to political conflict in the last two decades.  It's no coincidence that religion began playing a greater role in US politics again right around the time the US started getting re-involved in military action in the Middle East.

Furthermore, the main areas of immigration to Europe are of non-Christian origin.  The main immigrants into the US have strong Christian roots - and the US has many well-established churches that do not belong to the major branches of Christianity.  Membership in tradition Christian denominations has dropped, but evangelicals in the US have actually seen an increase.

And far more of Europe's population lives in urban areas than does the population of the United States on a per capita basis.

[Nakura]

Good riddance. What makes you think that Christianity isn't dying in the United States?

[swashmebuckle]

I just hope the emerging non-religious majority populations will manage to be less dickish to minority groups than the religious ones they replace. It will be interesting to see.

[Nakura]

I just hope the emerging non-religious majority populations will manage to be less dickish to minority groups than the religious ones they replace. It will be interesting to see.

Or perhaps the non-religious majority will simply be dickish to the religious minority?

Except Muslims of course, since criticizing Islam would be "racist." Yet criticizing Christianity and Judaism is perfectly acceptable.

[BloodEagle]

And there goes the thread! 

<cue applause>

[Nakura]

And there goes the thread! 

<cue applause>

The thread will only go downhill if we allow it to go downhill. If everyone remains civilized and respectful, I see no reason we can't have a legitimate discussion.