[Scourge of Ages]

I was kind of surprised that I didn't see this topic last month when the protests riots were starting. But they've escalated now, and it seems pretty important. There have been fatalities.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26249330

Ukraine crisis: Police storm main Kiev 'Maidan' protest camp

Police are storming the main protest camp in Ukraine's capital, Kiev, which has been occupied since November.

Explosions are taking place, fireworks are being thrown and large fires have broken out in Independence Square, known locally as the Maidan.

On Tuesday at least 18 people were killed, including seven policemen, in the worst violence seen in weeks.

Opposition leaders later met President Viktor Yanukovych but failed to find a solution to the crisis.

Vitaly Klitschko, leader of the opposition Udar (Punch) party, told Ukraine's Hromadske TV that the president had given the protesters only one option, leave the Maidan and go home.

Live stream: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26244542

[S-99]

Stuff may be happening over there, but it hardly warrants much of a different change on part of the protestors and the president. Both unwilling parties. Except the president is pretty much clearly bought out by a deal with russia; this sucks.

[Luis Dias]

I don't get much of what is happening there. The media is being terrible at this.

[Dragon]

Well, what is happening is Ukrainians having enough of corruption, theft, attempts at dictatorship and incompetence. The government tried enacting decrees that would essentially make Ukraine a dictatorship, but it turned out people weren't suppressed enough for that. Now they want change, and this is not going to stop until they get it. It was bound to happen one day, really. People has had enough, and the best thing the government could do now would be to resign en masse and declare elections. Not that it's going to do that, so I'm afraid blood is gonna flow.

I only hope this ends with relatively low causalities and without military intervention. However, the situation could as well spiral into a civil war, and it won't be NATO doing peacekeeping if that were the case, I'm afraid... Russia's pretty comfortable with Ukraine being dependent on it, and would try to turn it into a puppet state, given the chance.

Also, it's strange that I didn't see it discussed much in the western media. Too distracted with the Olympics, I suppose... It's been all over Polish media for quite some time, and there's popular support for the protesters over here. For example, reports about fatalities were there long before the BBC article. Not as many as this time, but still. There were also "solidarity protests" all over the country. I wish the issue got more attention from the west, but there's an inherent risk of annoying Russia by this.

[StarSlayer]

Stuff is happening in Venezuela and Thailand as well.

[Col.Hornet]

So far. Over 30 people killed (including more then 10 policemen) in Kiev. Many hundreds of injured. Most of the dead were killed by snipers (on both sides)
Sadly, numbers will be higher because the situation is developing very quickly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrBprqu6pnM    police BTR burning

[Aardwolf]

I'm somewhat annoyed that the word "protesters" is being used for this. This is a proper revolt going on.

[Mongoose]

Didn't the Ukraine just have this happen within the past decade too?  Yeesh.

[S-99]

A new type of government needs to be evolved. What it be? Who knows, however, corruption will still be common place with any of them either way. Checks and balances don't matter in the modern day.

[Mpez]

Russia's pretty comfortable with Ukraine being dependent on it, and would try to turn it into a puppet state, given the chance.

There are already voices within the Russian government to annex parts of Ukraine...

Sadly, numbers will be higher because the situation is developing very quickly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DxkDiAcSF8

[Luis Dias]

This made me understand the issues a little better, at least.

Here's why this map is important: There is a big dividing line in Ukrainian politics -- an actual, physical line that separates the north and west from the south and east. You can see it in this map and in just about every electoral map since the country's independence. That divide goes beyond the question of whether Ukraine faces toward Europe or toward Russia, but that question is a major factor. And it's polarizing.

Go read the article.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/01/24/this-is-the-one-map-you-need-to-understand-ukraines-crisis/

This might explain why talks about "annexation" aren't ridiculous. Too tad reminiscent of Checkoslovakia annexation in 1938 / 39 for me, so there's that.

[Dragon]

The question is not what Russia will do. They will try to take Ukraine, and TBH, they'd be foolish if they didn't. This opportunity is too good for them to pass up. The question is, what will the west do. Is the NATO going to confront Russia when it makes it's move into Ukraine, or is it gonna go the way of Checkoslovakia? A confrontation could escalate really badly, last thing this world needs is a war between NATO and Russia. On the other hand, standing idly while Russia annexes Ukraine (or a good part of it) just doesn't seem right, and would probably lead to them wanting more. And if that happens, I guess I'll be emigrating sooner than I expected, and at least as far as the UK... Come to think of it, I'd probably want to do that if there was a war brewing, too. It's really not a good time to live where I do.

I'm somewhat annoyed that the word "protesters" is being used for this. This is a proper revolt going on.

In Poland, they're already calling it an uprising. Let's call that spade a spade. "Protests" were in january. It's a full blown revolt now.

[StarSlayer]

Is the EU even looking for the Ukraine to join?  I was under the impression the EU has been hesitant to add more high pop low GDP nations to the fold.

[Mpez]

Is the EU even looking for the Ukraine to join?  I was under the impression the EU has been hesitant to add more high pop low GDP nations to the fold.

Well, based on TV-knowledge (you might want to read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan to get a better and probably more accurate picture) the demonstrations were a result of the Ukraine's president breaking off negotiations with the UE (concerning a Free Trade Agreement and creating a framework for further talks about joining the UE). There are talks of Ukraine being bankrupt and owing Russia money, but, nonetheless, the sudden end of negotiations was a surprise both to the UE and the Ukraine's society, the latter hoping to become more independent from Russia.

[Mika]

For some reason, I see Russian military intervention unlikely. They could do it, but I think that's less likely than just direct support to the government. Going head first into a civil war doesn't sound like a good idea.

However, it is true that NATO has been expanding towards Russia all the time, and this is the very thing which wasn't supposed to happen. On the other hand, Russian government should also understand why this is the case.

[Mpez]

For some reason, I see Russian military intervention unlikely. They could do it, but I think that's less likely than just direct support to the government. Going head first into a civil war doesn't sound like a good idea.

It depends. Consider Luis Dias's link. Ukraine is still strongly dependent on Russia and there are parts of Ukraine that would like this to continue. 5 years ago Russia invaded Georgia and basically tore off Abkhazia and South Ossetia (they declared themselves independent states, but it is said that they are basically Russian puppet states). A similar thing can happen now. And it is quite scary, because the region is becoming more and more unstable. There are uprisings and all kinds of civil unrest in other parts of the world, but Europe's situation was, till now, relatively stable.

[Dragon]

For some reason, I see Russian military intervention unlikely. They could do it, but I think that's less likely than just direct support to the government. Going head first into a civil war doesn't sound like a good idea.

Oh, they're not gonna call it "military invasion". They're gonna send "peacekeeping and stabilization forces", just like Americans did to Iraq. You know, "brotherly help", "supporting the government against the rebels". Wars and annexations are out of fashion these days, today you "stabilize the country" and "help establish a democratic government". The only problem I could see is if NATO wanted to do some friendly peacekeeping and stabilization, too. They might not get along with the Russians...

Also, did ArmA II suddenly become a bit too realistic for comfort to anyone else?

[Scourge of Ages]

Also, did ArmA II suddenly become a bit too realistic for comfort to anyone else?

They said the same thing about Ghost Recon when the Georgia thing happened.

Whatever happens, I hope that non-combatant casualties, well, don't happen. Right, it'll be a pretty bloodless revolution I'm sure. 

[Dragon]

Yeah. Hmm, suddenly, the Greeks arresting ArmA III devs on their island starts to look like a sensible move... I suppose that's the advantage of grandiose, CoD-style plots. They're unlikely to actually happen.
Oh, and about non-combatant casualties, well, it's a bit too late. There were quite a few already, and it looks like soon, just living in Ukraine is gonna make you a combatant, whether you like it or not. If previous situations of this kind are any indication, it'll get only worse from here. Russia wants southeastern Ukraine, because it's pro-Russian and has access to Black Sea. The way I see it, the only way it could have a peaceful end would be to split Ukraine into two countries along the language divide. Nationalists would complain, and the southeastern part would probably become a Russian puppet state, but the alternatives are probably more bloody.

[Bobboau]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/ukraine-calls-russian-troops-invasion/2014/02/28/e066bfc8-a0be-11e3-878c-65222df220eb_story.html