Author Topic: FS1 and FS2 (Split from  (Read 6228 times)

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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: FS1 and FS2 (Split from
FS1's soundtrack has a distinct atmosphere though, a lot more B5'ish (and 80ish) than FS2 in a weird exotic way. It took the player to a different dark and cruel universe filled with mysteries and secrets in a way that FS2's didn't. I think that's the main drive for FS1's nostalgia.

In a way, they were still trying to understand the world they were creating and overall things are still quite heterogeneous in quality. FS2 is a lot more coherent, impressive, exciting, top-notch quality in all distinct areas of the game. And they didn't just make a "better FS than FS1", they actively seeked to subvert and undermine FS1 along with it. Both products and the path that took them from making the first to the second make me very respectful of their development team.

 

Offline InsaneBaron

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Re: FS1 and FS2 (Split from
At the end of the day, FS2 is, in fact, a better game. Story, gameplay, VAs, writing, are all better. But FS1 has a certain appeal to it as well. The comparison between Star Wars episodes is really good, but I think A New Hope has a certain type of fun that The Empire Strike Back doesn't.
Doesn't matter what the press says. Doesn't matter what the politicians or the mobs say. Doesn't matter if the whole country decides that something wrong is something right. This nation was founded on one principle above all else: the requirement that we stand up for what we believe, no matter the odds or the consequences. When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth, and tell the whole world — "No, you move." - Captain America

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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: FS1 and FS2 (Split from
I just hope the parallels between BP and FS are false. For it would mean that BP3 would never be finished. :(

 

Offline Nyarly

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Re: FS1 and FS2 (Split from
While I think FS2 is on the whole a considerably better game, FS1 was superior in a few ways.  The most notable, IMHO, was that the Terran ships of the GW were much better looking than their Second Shivan Incursion-era counterparts.  The inverse is true for the Vasudan ships.

There are exceptions, of course.  The Deimos and Typhon are both sexy ships, particularly in comparison to almost everything else in their respective fleets.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2014, 01:01:22 am by Nyarly »
Do not taunt Magic Boulder.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: FS1 and FS2 (Split from
I agree. The Orion especially seems a lot more well designed and cared than the Hecate.

 

Offline AV8R

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Re: FS1 and FS2 (Split from
General Battuta, I am sincerely sorry about all of this.

I never meant for this to occur.... again.   :(

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: FS1 and FS2 (Split from
No, it's been a pretty good thread!

 

Offline AV8R

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Re: FS1 and FS2 (Split from
If you say so. Some good points were made, I suppose. I am surprised by the outpouring of FS1 support too. It shows that simplistic storylines can work - albeit in a limited way. I guess our wives are right - sometimes emotional content trumps intellectual logic. Don't tell her I said that....  ;)

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: FS1 and FS2 (Split from
FS1 never manages to be dark so much as comic. It's full of odd malapropisms that undermine the tangibility of the setting and prevent it from really evoking emotion.

I'm...really failing to grasp what's comic about the mission where you're escorting Vasudan refugees away from the destruction of their homeworld, and your wingmen are pointing out that it doesn't matter, because there's no place safe to take them if the Lucifer can't be stopped and nobody has a way to stop the Lucifer.

Every time the plan failed in FS2, by contrast, we are immediately introduced to the next one. The whole concept of "we can't win" is never even touched on or explored in FS2; it may be deconstructive on a micro scale, but on a macro one, as I said, there's always another plan and another hope. There's never despair the way FS1 at least made an attempt.
"Load sabot. Target Zaku, direct front!"

A Feddie Story

 

Offline niffiwan

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Re: FS1 and FS2 (Split from
I thought the arrival of the 2nd Sathanas was the moment where "we can't win, we can only survive" started to be explored?
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Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: FS1 and FS2 (Split from
I thought the arrival of the 2nd Sathanas was the moment where "we can't win, we can only survive" started to be explored?

I dunno, locking the Shivans in with their supernova sounds kinda winning to me. So does the mere fact of survival, which as I pointed out FS1 made a point to have a period where even that wasn't a possibility.
"Load sabot. Target Zaku, direct front!"

A Feddie Story

 

Offline Rga_Noris

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Re: FS1 and FS2 (Split from
FS1 never manages to be dark so much as comic. It's full of odd malapropisms that undermine the tangibility of the setting and prevent it from really evoking emotion.

I'm...really failing to grasp what's comic about the mission where you're escorting Vasudan refugees away from the destruction of their homeworld, and your wingmen are pointing out that it doesn't matter, because there's no place safe to take them if the Lucifer can't be stopped and nobody has a way to stop the Lucifer.

Every time the plan failed in FS2, by contrast, we are immediately introduced to the next one. The whole concept of "we can't win" is never even touched on or explored in FS2; it may be deconstructive on a micro scale, but on a macro one, as I said, there's always another plan and another hope. There's never despair the way FS1 at least made an attempt.

Huh. I finished FS2 with the very, very clear message that we couldn't win. We could only run. And then it was just a matter of time before we were faced with the Shivans again. Once the second Sath enters the game, it is a feeling of pure dispair. That is amplified by the contrast of a recent success in destroying what we thought was the ultimate threat, only to find out that we weren't even close. To top it off, we then watch the Colly get dusted. It's also very clear that some Shivan's escaped the super nova, have access to other Knossos devices, and are still present and possibly even abundant in the nebula.... hardly a win.

I think I'll call REAL Mahjong 'Chinese Dominoes', just to make people think I'm an ignorant asshat.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: FS1 and FS2 (Split from
Sounds as much "winning" as managing to escape a fight you first thought you could win hands down and now are desperate to run away as fast as possible from. And after "winning" you slowly realise that even your escape was just possible because you were ignored / let escape.

That's even worse than defeat in some ways.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: FS1 and FS2 (Split from
hardly a win.

You're going to live. I dunno man, that's terrible, right? We should all die. (Come on, does nobody actually read?)

In FS2 there is always a plan that meets some definition of "win condition" and a way to get there. The win condition might change, but in the end there's always one that's recognizable and thwarts the Shivan's objectives (any discussion that they didn't want to kill us can be safely ignored since they continued to kill us even after all we were doing was running away).

In FS1 there is a period after the destruction of Vasuda Prime where there's no plan and no win condition; you're all dead. It's just taking time to show.
"Load sabot. Target Zaku, direct front!"

A Feddie Story

 
Re: FS1 and FS2 (Split from
I dunno, FS1's cliche-ness kinda spoils that no matter what, you'll find a way to stop the unstoppable supership just in the nick of time. I would have been impressed if the Lucifer actually managed to glass Earth before going kaboom, but it gets isolated instead.

EDIT - to elaborate: I agree with you that from an ingame perspective, there is point where the Alliance and the Empire don't have any option to actually stop the Shivans.
However, at the end of the game, the unbeatable is now beatable. Humanity (and Vasudanity) is triumphant. Silent Threat further cements that by showing that the Shivans outside Sol gets beaten as well.

At the end of FS2, the beatable is now unbeatable. The Alliance is in full retreat, wondering why the Shivans didn't steamroll them before making Capella go kaboom. You are left wondering what the heck happened, with the very real possibility that the Shivans might just repair the nodes and finish the job.

EDIT 2 - If not for Silent Threat, the situation at the end of FS1 would be pretty bad too, since there is the very real possibility of the Shivans repairing the node and roll in another Lucy, and Humanity would have nowhere to run.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2014, 04:56:38 am by X3N0-Life-Form »

 

Offline jr2

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Re: FS1 and FS2 (Split from
I think where the Ancients were done in is (possibly) they were so large they tried to use their insane numbers / existing tech to beat the Shivans.  Then, after being worn down, the Lucy comes in and cleans their clock, and they only realize how to defeat that after it's too late (they don't have the advanced missile / bomb  tech to take down the Lucy, if they even had any ships that they could scrape together to mount an offensive).

Terrans / Vasudans, however, immediately started advancing their tech and cloning Shivan tech.  Thus, when they found the weakness in the Lucy, they could defeat it.  This brings up the point of my post: Terrans / Vasudans probably could defeat another Lucy in short order.  Track it through subspace, clobber it there.  The Colossus could probably have one-shotted a Lucy in subspace, who knows.  Even with the tech available shortly after the start of the Shivan incursion, if we had know to attack the Lucy in subspace, it would have slowly been worn down and destroyed after a few systems. 

Come to think of it, the tech buildup for the Terran-Vasudan War probably saved both races...

/end opinion

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: FS1 and FS2 (Split from
I think Xeno makes a good point. In addition to FS1's aforementioned tragicomedy (the script is just too full of bloopers at the prose level to really work), it's always working on familiar territory. There's always a plan because we all know what's going to happen next.

 
Re: FS1 and FS2 (Split from
Yeah, in FS1 the situation isn't 'hopeless' at all on a metanarrative level, because we've been here in countless other action movies and we know that there will be some kind of last-minute solution which may exact some dramatically-significant price in its execution but will still save the day. Whereas in FS2 both the player's and the GTVA's control of the situation is completely broken when SJ Sathanas 02 jumps out of that node and is continually worn down from that point forward, culminating in the ultimate indignity of the supernova: not only are we incapable of beating the Shivans once more, our last-ditch contingency to blockade them from our systems can't even confound them because they were never here for that in the first place.
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline InsaneBaron

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Re: FS1 and FS2 (Split from
I'd say that, all things taken into account, FS1 and FS2 complement eachother in much the same way that A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back, or AoA and WiH, complement eachother. They have very different tones, and as a result appeal to different parts of the emotions. Neither make much sense without the other. Ultimately, FS2 takes the prize (the only FS1 blooper that particularly bothered me was when Wolf brought up my recon of the Lucifer too early... but yes, it had a lot of goofups now that i read of them, mainly with the nodes)
Doesn't matter what the press says. Doesn't matter what the politicians or the mobs say. Doesn't matter if the whole country decides that something wrong is something right. This nation was founded on one principle above all else: the requirement that we stand up for what we believe, no matter the odds or the consequences. When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth, and tell the whole world — "No, you move." - Captain America

InsaneBaron's Fun-to-Read Reviews!
Blue Planet: Age of Aquarius - Silent Threat: Reborn - Operation Templar - Sync, Transcend, Windmills - The Antagonist - Inferno, Inferno: Alliance

 

Offline Rga_Noris

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Re: FS1 and FS2 (Split from
hardly a win.

You're going to live. I dunno man, that's terrible, right? We should all die. (Come on, does nobody actually read?)

In FS2 there is always a plan that meets some definition of "win condition" and a way to get there. The win condition might change, but in the end there's always one that's recognizable and thwarts the Shivan's objectives (any discussion that they didn't want to kill us can be safely ignored since they continued to kill us even after all we were doing was running away).

In FS1 there is a period after the destruction of Vasuda Prime where there's no plan and no win condition; you're all dead. It's just taking time to show.

I agree with the FS1 point, but I still disagree with your evaluation of win, which is essentially, "Hey, we delayed being wiped out!" Just because the Shivans were killing us as we left Capella, it doesn't signify that was their only goal. If it was, it would have been far more effective for them to simply invade our systems with the 80 Saths before we could close the nodes, which they had time to do. So if it was their only goal, they certainly didn't wish to dedicate the appropriate (and abundant) resources to it.

Even if you disregard that, a portion of the Shivan armada clearly left Capella before it exploded and is far from defeated. Again, its clear we didn't defeat the Shivans. The only clear truth is that we are not dead, which isn't exactly defeat, but it is hardly a happy note.

Are you saying FS2 ended with hope for success? Was the something about fleeing for our lives through the Capella node that said "We're nailing this!"?
I think I'll call REAL Mahjong 'Chinese Dominoes', just to make people think I'm an ignorant asshat.