Author Topic: FS1 and FS2 (Split from  (Read 6223 times)

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Offline General Battuta

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FS1 and FS2 (Split from
Out of curiosity, why are you opposed to FreeSpace Open? Particularly if you're interested in user-made content? It seems like a completely positive-sum game for you - you gain a lot at zero cost.

 
Re: FS1 and FS2 (Split from
Out of curiosity, why are you opposed to FreeSpace Open? Particularly if you're interested in user-made content? It seems like a completely positive-sum game for you - you gain a lot at zero cost.

I'm not so opposed to FS Open anymore. The only thing I would dislike would be the new ship models (specifically of the Cain/Lilith and Typhon) but I could get over that very quickly. I just don't own Freespace 2.

I was going to buy it to get FS Open but the I realized I could just get FS 1 for the same price. I didn't even need to do that because I was able to fix my original problem in my retail copy.

 

Offline AV8R

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Re: FS1 and FS2 (Split from
I'm not so opposed to FS Open anymore. The only thing I would dislike would be the new ship models (specifically of the Cain/Lilith and Typhon) but I could get over that very quickly. I just don't own Freespace 2.

I was going to buy it to get FS Open but the I realized I could just get FS 1 for the same price. I didn't even need to do that because I was able to fix my original problem in my retail copy.

How could you honestly dislike more detailed ship models? Isn't that why we play more and more advanced games so we can enjoy better graphics that our newer computers can handle? After playing FSPort (the FS1 port for FSOpen) I find the retail models laughable now in comparison. The amount of painstaking detail that someone lovingly crafted into the ship models is really awe-inspriring in most cases (the new Arcadia model is absolutely stunning).

Trust me when I tell you, that, even if you're a die-hard FS1 purist in the most sacred sense (it was a decade before I even played FS2 retail since I thought "how can you improve on the FS1 storyline?" - so I get where you're coming from) once you start experiencing the improvements of FSOpen (for both the FS1 and FS2 campaigns) and really become immersed in the graphical glory that the new models provide and the raw realism they seem to impart, you'll come to see the vision that this talented team had for improving an already stellar game in the only way they could - by taking a great story and making it even better by improving the look and feel of the game by leaps and bounds.

As Howard Cosell once said - "Truly an awesome spectacle".   ;7

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: FS1 and FS2 (Split from
S/he might not like the artistic decisions the MVPs made. *shrug* Remember, the graphical upgrades are completely optional.

Not liking FreeSpace 2 leaps and bounds more than FreeSpace 1 is probably the more alien opinion to me, but that's a debate we've had at length.  :nervous:

 

Offline AV8R

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Re: FS1 and FS2 (Split from
I suppose some like the completely unadulterated experience of the original game and I get that (nostalgia is what it is). But to say a flat, plain, blocky model is somehow nicer or more acceptable than a intricately crafted and detailed model is a bit odd.

As far as stories go - I might have to agree with the OP in the sense that I really feel that FS1's storyline was a bit more compelling that FS2's. Maybe due to the fact the that, to me, the Shivans were so different in the two stories. In FS1 the Shivans seemed to be a xenophobic race focused on one thing and one thing only - the eradication of all other subspace-capable races they encountered (Including our own). While in FS2 they seemed to lose their focus and had their own strange, mysterious agenda - and we just happened to be in their way at the time.

I liken the story comparison to:

FS1 being like Star Wars Episode IV - A New Hope
FS2 being like Star Wars Episode V - The Empire Strikes Back

Of course, that's just my opinion. YMMV.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: FS1 and FS2 (Split from
*resists with all might*

 

Offline Mongoose

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Re: FS1 and FS2 (Split from
I was gonna say...

 

Offline AdmiralRalwood

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Re: FS1 and FS2 (Split from
FS1 being like Star Wars Episode IV - A New Hope
FS2 being like Star Wars Episode V - The Empire Strikes Back
BP: Episode VI: Return of the Earthers
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Codethulhu GitHub wgah'nagl fhtagn.

schrödinbug (noun) - a bug that manifests itself in running software after a programmer notices that the code should never have worked in the first place.

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"I am one of the best FREDders on Earth" -General Battuta

<Aesaar> literary criticism is vladimir putin

<MageKing17> "There's probably a reason the code is the way it is" is a very dangerous line of thought. :P
<MageKing17> Because the "reason" often turns out to be "nobody noticed it was wrong".
(the very next day)
<MageKing17> this ****ing code did it to me again
<MageKing17> "That doesn't really make sense to me, but I'll assume it was being done for a reason."
<MageKing17> **** ME
<MageKing17> THE REASON IS PEOPLE ARE STUPID
<MageKing17> ESPECIALLY ME

<MageKing17> God damn, I do not understand how this is breaking.
<MageKing17> Everything points to "this should work fine", and yet it's clearly not working.
<MjnMixael> 2 hours later... "God damn, how did this ever work at all?!"
(...)
<MageKing17> so
<MageKing17> more than two hours
<MageKing17> but once again we have reached the inevitable conclusion
<MageKing17> How did this code ever work in the first place!?

<@The_E> Welcome to OpenGL, where standards compliance is optional, and error reporting inconsistent

<MageKing17> It was all working perfectly until I actually tried it on an actual mission.

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* z64555 erases "Thursday" and rewrites it in red ink

<MageKing17> TIL the entire homing code is held up by shoestrings and duct tape, basically.

 

Offline AV8R

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Re: FS1 and FS2 (Split from
*resists with all might*

I'm sure you've discussed this subject ad-nauseum with many others over the years and I assure you, I'm certainly not here to dredge up the whole "FS1 vs FS2 - which story is better" debate all over again. I simply offered my preference based on my personal experience - how each story affected me personally (and yes, not everyone will agree).

My point was - each story, when told, will be experienced by different people in different ways based on how each story touches both their intellect and emotions. Now, whether FS1 or FS2's story is better than another based on some literary criteria has a basis for fact (in that sense I would concede FS2 as the better literary work), but that doesn't negate the fact that, while FS2 wins on an intellectual level story-wise, what it lacked for me were the raw emotions of fear, survival and triumph that FS1 invoked in me. Thus, on an emotional level, I found FS1's story to be more compelling (expanding on what I meant in my previous post). And once again, that is simply my opinion - and certainly not meant to detract from how others experienced these games.

And regardless of how each of us personally experienced these games for the first time back in the day, I believe this truism remains (and I'm sure most would agree): FS1 and FS2 were both some of the finest space-sim stories ever told.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: FS1 and FS2 (Split from
I think FreeSpace 1 works on the same level as Independence Day or D&D novels - entertaining in a shallow sense, but ultimately a monomyth banality valuable mostly as meat for the engine of FS2.

 

Offline AV8R

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Re: FS1 and FS2 (Split from
I think FreeSpace 1 works on the same level as Independence Day or D&D novels - entertaining in a shallow sense, but ultimately a monomyth banality valuable mostly as meat for the engine of FS2.

Wow - I take it you really don't care much for FS1, do you?   :p

D&D novels, heh heh. I used to buy them for the half-naked female cover art....  ;7

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: FS1 and FS2 (Split from
Yeah, I read a ton of them, and they're part of the reason I don't think subjectivity is the only valuable metric of artistic worth: I loved them! But they're really, really, really bad, and going back to them I can see that now. I think FS1 is a story that gets less interesting the more you think and look at it, and FS2 is the opposite.

 
Re: FS1 and FS2 (Split from
I suppose some like the completely unadulterated experience of the original game and I get that (nostalgia is what it is). But to say a flat, plain, blocky model is somehow nicer or more acceptable than a intricately crafted and detailed model is a bit odd.

As far as stories go - I might have to agree with the OP in the sense that I really feel that FS1's storyline was a bit more compelling that FS2's. Maybe due to the fact the that, to me, the Shivans were so different in the two stories. In FS1 the Shivans seemed to be a xenophobic race focused on one thing and one thing only - the eradication of all other subspace-capable races they encountered (Including our own). While in FS2 they seemed to lose their focus and had their own strange, mysterious agenda - and we just happened to be in their way at the time.

I liken the story comparison to:

FS1 being like Star Wars Episode IV - A New Hope
FS2 being like Star Wars Episode V - The Empire Strikes Back

Of course, that's just my opinion. YMMV.

where episode v is the one that's unquestionably the better film. you see, we're all in agreement on this!
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 
Re: FS1 and FS2 (Split from
Also I'd add that from a gameplay perspective it's very hard for me to prefer FS1, with its capships that do nothing but shoot ineffective blob turrets and soak up torpedoes and its often very shoddy mission design.
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: FS1 and FS2 (Split from
this thread's done son

 

Offline AV8R

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Re: FS1 and FS2 (Split from
Yeah, I read a ton of them, and they're part of the reason I don't think subjectivity is the only valuable metric of artistic worth: I loved them! But they're really, really, really bad, and going back to them I can see that now. I think FS1 is a story that gets less interesting the more you think and look at it, and FS2 is the opposite.

Agreed. There's more to a story than just how we see it - and the less value it tends to have the more we see it. We could, in fact, take any story and by employing a bit of critical thinking, take it apart piece by piece and find all of it's flaws and plot-holes (and in this case, game inconsistencies and bad mission design). But of what benefit is it now? We can't rewite either FS1 or FS2 without making them completely different games so they are what they are - warts and all.

Now think back to a simpler time, 15 or so years ago. Do you remember that very first time you played FS1 (and later FS2), before you knew what you now know about them? How did they make you feel? The rush you felt, the battle stress, the hyper-awareness? What I'm sure you weren't doing at the time was picking the story apart - you were just enjoying it.

Sadly, it seems, if all we have left after so many years of playing this game is picking it apart, where's the joy in playing it anymore? When all we can think while playing the game is "bad mission design", "poor weapons placement", "cheap model texturing", etc... where's the fun, the wonder, the thrill coming from? Is there any left?

Seems one of the truths of getting older is that no story is ever going to be as engaging as when you experienced it the first time. It's true in games, books, movies, love and life. And there are fewer and fewer "first times" we can enjoy as we get older. So as I get older, as far as the Freespace stories are concerned, I like to put a real effort into trying to recapture that thrill I got while playing these games for the first time, as many times as I can (with both FS1 and FS2).

So for me, I could care less about plot holes and mission design (good or bad), I just want to enjoy the game - and for that familiar fleeting second feel the exhilaration of firing that last shot into the belly of the Lucifer and watching the (upgraded) cut scene play as it breaks apart again, just outside of the moons orbit. Have I seen it happen a 1000 times now? Yes. But if this is what Luke Skywalker felt like watching the Death Star come apart (and how I felt watching him do it), well then that's a feeling a want to keep experiencing as often as possible by way of these stories (warts and all) for as long as I'm able.

Ok, so maybe I don't look at the Freespace story lines from an intellectual or critical point of view - but I'm still having fun with them and to me that is the point of the game.

Ok, now the thread is done.  ;)

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: FS1 and FS2 (Split from
I'm not really concerned with plot holes - I think some logical gaps are generally a part of fiction, though I try to steer clear of them in my own - but the very first thing I noticed about FreeSpace 2 was that it had really high-quality sentence-level writing, and the first thing I noticed about FreeSpace 1 was that it didn't. FS1 is poorly written at a very basic craft level. Whatever else FS1 was going for, that torpedoed it for me.

It's great that you have fun with it, though, more power to you.

 

Offline AV8R

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Re: FS1 and FS2 (Split from
I'm not really concerned with plot holes - I think some logical gaps are generally a part of fiction, though I try to steer clear of them in my own - but the very first thing I noticed about FreeSpace 2 was that it had really high-quality sentence-level writing, and the first thing I noticed about FreeSpace 1 was that it didn't. FS1 is poorly written at a very basic craft level. Whatever else FS1 was going for, that torpedoed it for me.

Sure, FS2 has far superior "mission-speak" and voice acting - no contest there. But humor me for a moment. If you had never played FS2 - do you think it you'd feel differently about FS1? What would you have to compare it to? If FS2 was never made, FS1 would just be a story that encapsulates itself - and in a somewhat shallow sense, yes (much like, as you mentioned, Independence Day). No sequels, no history, just a single, simple triumphant story. Aliens come, aliens threaten, aliens attack and, with typical human adaptive ingenuity and a little luck, we persevere and stick it to the aliens (or insert other enemy here) and destroy them/send them packing.

Yes, it's the same old tired plot line used over and over again with different characters different enemies and different way of achieving the same outcome but the bottom line is - the story line works. Who doesn't want to be a part of humanity's overcoming annihilation by an evil/faceless invading army? It's great fun! And I believe when you played it the first time you really liked it - until FS2 came along and jaded you with Roger Loggia's gritty and gripping mission briefs. Game over FS1.  ;)

Anyway, thanks to everyone here who have worked so hard over the years to keep breathing new life into this well-worn story line by at least keeping the imagined view fresh and inventive. I have the utmost respect for all you are able to accomplish.

And thanks, General Battuta, for having this civil and honest exchange with me - I appreciate your candor.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: FS1 and FS2 (Split from
Cheers!

 
Re: FS1 and FS2 (Split from
Wow, was not expecting a tech thread to derail in such an engaging way. And to those questioning my graphical tastes, it is a mix of nostalgia and canon. For example, the Cain/Lilith class cruisers in their upgraded forms look nothing like how they originally did. I just can't accept that, it irks me. The same goes with the Typhon and many of the freighters.

I admit, some ships did get a bad ass upgrade though.