Author Topic: Shivans: Why only 1 Lucifer?  (Read 24101 times)

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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Shivans: Why only 1 Lucifer?
Sure it is. But humans is a really damn broad characterization when you get down to it. Insufferable arrogant pricks sure of their own sainthood along the lines of early ST:TNG? Sinners like Game of Thrones? Does the General Assembly have actual power or the Security Council holds the only meaningful ability? Who has military oversight?  There's a huge amount we're not told which is directly relevant and not filled in by the usual general gap-filling. You're simply not looking at it.

You are putting too many expectations of detail into a game that consistently decided to go at it minimalistically. Yes, how are the rainbows in Capella VI, what is the regional architecture of Polaris IV, what kind of virtual games are most enjoyed in Delta Serpentis? There is no end to the detailing of any lore if one so wishes. Your demands are just way far above my own here. Notice how the whole game doesn't even have a protagonist. This decision is consistent throughout: the idea to have as little characterization of the "good guys" part so that you can easily "fill in the banks" with your own "unknown knowns" (your preferences, baggages, prejudices, etc.) and not even think about them. The focus should be on the plot, not on world building. And the plot is about the relationship we as a mortal young species have with an (apparently) immortal, very old, very large, muted species.

We all know what humans are with our baggage, and quite frankly the difference between TNG insufferability and GoT psychopathy is not that great when compared with creatures like the shivans. To worsen your point, we do get some kind of characterization, from both the speeches we get, their tone, their ambition, their looseness or tightness, their humanity or not. And from all of this the feeling I got was one of "this is just like modern 21st century army human beings around me". To me this is more than enough.

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None of which, of course, applies to the Vasudans either.

They do speak with me, they interact with me, I get to see the belly of their destroyer, I somewhat know how they function and they are mostly like humans in the grand scheme of things.

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The problem with this concept is that you don't actually deal with any of the rebels from the movies. You do in fact see the Emperor and Vader, of course. But you see plenty of things that don't match up with the movie portrayals as well, like attacks on civilians, exchanges of hostages, the Empire acting as a peacekeeping force, and the Rebel Alliance taking an anarchistic stand against an attempt to establish the basic implements of law and order; all of these are a part of your first couple of campaigns in TIE Fighter.

It was immediately obvious that what you knew was only partially relevant, if it was relevant at all. So it is here; you're arguing we can apply our general knowledge of humanity to an interstellar society with FTL drive and communications, to which I respond that many good authors have spilled much ink exploring the obvious fact this would result in vast societal differences. And did we mention they've integrated a whole other species?

I think what you said is very interesting but missing the point entirely. I really appreciate it, I didn't remember the plot all that well (been a long time), but consider what you said and contrast it against what I meant here. It's clear from what you presented regarding Tie Fighter that they did play with what we thought we knew from the trilogy, and played us against it. It's very clever. However, my point stands because you didn't address it at all. While I might not know "these kinds of rebels" that well, I somewhat know they will have intrinsic human archetypical incentives to their actions, they will speak, they are individuals, they suffer, they have things to win and things to lose, they die and are aware of that, they are capable of love, they have families, they are troublesome, I could go on and on and on about it.

Not one of those things do I know about the shivans.

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I don't need to presuppose. It's a mathematical certainty that if they intend to fight us and they are in a position of great strength (which is self-evident in both games), then not communicating with us is beneficial because it involves no risk.

Yes it can be construed as such, but it still is a non-sequitur that this is the definite explanation why they don't. There could be multiple other explanations. Also, it is possible it's not the most beneficial tactic. Miscommunication and misinformation on a larger level could even be deadlier and way more effective.

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That's not FreeSpace 2's thematic concern at all. Consider: the climax of the game comes after the ETAK plots wrap up. You can define it variously; Straight, No Chaser, Their Finest Hour, Clash of the Titans II, or Apocalypse, but it's clearly later. Similarly, the majority of the other missions in the game that are extremely memorable, like A Lion At The Door or The Sixth Wonder, are completely unrelated to ETAK.

You're right.

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There is a laundry list of reasons why the Shivans might want to cause a supernova, ranging from the ingame speculation to wanting to make a statement to the GTVA about not poking them like the nebular campaign did. Bosch's abduction/departure is a predictable consequence of his communication. What isn't rationally explainable from what we know is why the Shivans felt the need to kill much of the Iceni's crew in the process of taking the dozen-odd people they did.

I don't see how any speculation on why they should kill everyone but the dozen-odd ones is weirder than the supernova one. Possibly, because they just wanted to keep it simple and have absolute disregard for human lives. Possibly it was the most efficient manner to bring Bosch aboard and not be burdened by hundreds of irrelevant carbon bags of water. Possibly, they are just brutes. Seriously, I can see how these speculations are less intellectual, but I don't see them "harder" at all. Quite the opposite. My big mystery here is why they took Bosch, to what end. It follows consistently, it is speculatable. Not any less than the supernova.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Shivans: Why only 1 Lucifer?
EDIT: To make super-extra sure that FSPort didn't engage is any historical revisionism, I pulled out the GOG.com installer for FS1+ST and extracted md-12.FSM, and still no nonsensical Seraphims.

I'd look at my CD version of Silent Threat but I'm not sure where it is. I've had to bring this up before in discussion. Try checking by wings in the mission and seeing what they're composed of; unlike the infinitely respawning Lokis you get one wave of Shivans, and if you decide to let the Orff die and don't bother with anything that launches and just rubber-band your trigger, you could easily not see them.

Regardless of their presence, though, the command briefings still make your statement troublesome at best, particularly the statement that GTI has action to Shivan weaponry. (Especially Shivan Super Lasers, the only actual examples of which are currently on the other side of a closed node.)

Yes it can be construed as such, but it still is a non-sequitur that this is the definite explanation why they don't. There could be multiple other explanations. Also, it is possible it's not the most beneficial tactic. Miscommunication and misinformation on a larger level could even be deadlier and way more effective.

But contains elements of risk; if nothing else, after being misdirected several times, people will realize what is not going to be attacked. There is also possibility that nobody will fall for it or that the deception will accidentally expose the reality.

Risk is to be minimized where possible. In both cases the Shivans had the forces available at the start of the war to have crushed the GTV/PVE/GTVA. If given the option to use a sledgehammer, or to construct elaborate plans to achieve the same ends, using the sledgehammer is safer and less subject to random chance or enemy action.

Any cultural or other explanation is ultimately an excuse for the fact that Shivans very obviously did not care to speak to us to understand us, and did not have to talk to us to efficiently kill us, so they never had a reason to try.

I don't see how any speculation on why they should kill everyone but the dozen-odd ones is weirder than the supernova one. Possibly, because they just wanted to keep it simple and have absolute disregard for human lives. Possibly it was the most efficient manner to bring Bosch aboard and not be burdened by hundreds of irrelevant carbon bags of water. Possibly, they are just brutes. Seriously, I can see how these speculations are less intellectual, but I don't see them "harder" at all. Quite the opposite. My big mystery here is why they took Bosch, to what end. It follows consistently, it is speculatable. Not any less than the supernova.

Because it's actually possible to speculate about one and then use inferences from previous events to support that speculation. In other words, they can be given weight and examined for their adherence to the overall FreeSpace story.

It is not possible in the case of the other, because the Shivans are already doing something they have never done before. It is impossible to apply inductive logic to the situation because we have no previous experience on which to build. Anything goes here; if all claims are equally valid, this usually is a sign that none have much validity to begin with.
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Offline AdmiralRalwood

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Re: Shivans: Why only 1 Lucifer?
EDIT: To make super-extra sure that FSPort didn't engage is any historical revisionism, I pulled out the GOG.com installer for FS1+ST and extracted md-12.FSM, and still no nonsensical Seraphims.

I'd look at my CD version of Silent Threat but I'm not sure where it is. I've had to bring this up before in discussion. Try checking by wings in the mission and seeing what they're composed of; unlike the infinitely respawning Lokis you get one wave of Shivans, and if you decide to let the Orff die and don't bother with anything that launches and just rubber-band your trigger, you could easily not see them.
I went through the mission files themselves; there is no reference to a wing of Seraphims in any mission with the Hades in any version of Silent Threat that I (or anyone else, for that matter) could find or remember. You're the only person who seems to remember these Seraphims.

Even accepting the patently false claim that they exist however, it's laughable to compare the performance of a wing of bombers that GTI has had access to for an unknown amount of time to an already-damaged Dragon that was deployed immediately after its capture, making the rest of your argument as nonsensical as its premise is false.

Regardless of their presence, though, the command briefings still make your statement troublesome at best, particularly the statement that GTI has action to Shivan weaponry. (Especially Shivan Super Lasers, the only actual examples of which are currently on the other side of a closed node.)
Having access to Shivan weaponry is an interesting fact. It offers no proof of communication or cooperation between GTI and the Shivans. You could put it forth as an interesting piece of corroborating evidence to support the plausibility of the theory that there may have been communication between GTI and the Shivans. What you cannot do is assert that such communication and/or cooperation took place, which... is what you did.

I'm not sure what "troublesome statement" of mine you're referring to; the only statement I made was that there are no Seraphims in the final mission of Silent Threat (which literally anybody can verify with a minimum of effort... as several people on IRC did, and you apparently did not). The only "troublesome statement" I'm seeing is still this one:
Silent Threat rather destroys the notion of the Shivans as uncommunicative. They not only communicated but participated in a massive joint project with the GTI which replicated some of their most powerful technologies.
This is a rather bold assertion; one you have failed to back up with any solid evidence.
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<Aesaar> literary criticism is vladimir putin

<MageKing17> "There's probably a reason the code is the way it is" is a very dangerous line of thought. :P
<MageKing17> Because the "reason" often turns out to be "nobody noticed it was wrong".
(the very next day)
<MageKing17> this ****ing code did it to me again
<MageKing17> "That doesn't really make sense to me, but I'll assume it was being done for a reason."
<MageKing17> **** ME
<MageKing17> THE REASON IS PEOPLE ARE STUPID
<MageKing17> ESPECIALLY ME

<MageKing17> God damn, I do not understand how this is breaking.
<MageKing17> Everything points to "this should work fine", and yet it's clearly not working.
<MjnMixael> 2 hours later... "God damn, how did this ever work at all?!"
(...)
<MageKing17> so
<MageKing17> more than two hours
<MageKing17> but once again we have reached the inevitable conclusion
<MageKing17> How did this code ever work in the first place!?

<@The_E> Welcome to OpenGL, where standards compliance is optional, and error reporting inconsistent

<MageKing17> It was all working perfectly until I actually tried it on an actual mission.

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* z64555 erases "Thursday" and rewrites it in red ink

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Re: Shivans: Why only 1 Lucifer?
http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=84821.0
Simple strong ideas are not necessarily expressible in a single sentence, if you interpret "simple" as basic, fundamental, common, or intuitive. (For example: existence, truth, love, numbers, consciousness, brute facts, and especially nothingness.)

That said, the final sentence of Luis' thesis is pretty good:

Quote from: Luis Dias
The vertigo symbolized by the constant biblical references parallels the player's experience of the Shivan unreal godlike nature, and the Mosaic thematic creates the perfect setting to brutalize the player's expectations of a simple "epic" story into a more authentic and honest moment of awe and frustration at the game's ending.

I read the theory and its interesting, but not sure I buy it. There are parallels to ancient stories certainly but the number of stories it draws upon calls into doubt the idea of direct parallels. If one compares Bosch and NTF to both the Hebrews and the rebelling britons, then while there are certainly parallels there are a great many things which have to be ignored for the comparison to hold. The circumstances of the Hebrew exodus, its conclusion and the 40-year journey in-between have a lot of variation from the Freespace 2 story. The number of differences outweigh the number of similarities and it doesn't hold up under anything but a superficial and selective reading.

Personally I would say simply that:


The references to ancient texts and stories are a literary device to impart additional subtext and sentiment to characters and actions while also imbuing the story with an ancient and timeless quality.

 
Re: Shivans: Why only 1 Lucifer?
Akalabeth: great response. I can't argue with that.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Shivans: Why only 1 Lucifer?
But contains elements of risk; if nothing else, after being misdirected several times, people will realize what is not going to be attacked. There is also possibility that nobody will fall for it or that the deception will accidentally expose the reality.

Risk is zero with efficient misinformation. At best, your opponent's intel is incredibly confused, at worst your opponent learns to ignore you properly.

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Any cultural or other explanation is ultimately an excuse for the fact that Shivans very obviously did not care to speak to us to understand us, and did not have to talk to us to efficiently kill us, so they never had a reason to try.

Again, it could be. I never said this is implausible. But the problem is that all this line of evidence is equally consistent with any theory or speculation that characterizes the Shivans as, say, autistic introvert beings who dislike any communication whatsoever (the real reason of the Great War is that the Shivans couldn't stand all the radio chatter! And so much so they banged a ****ing star to just get out of these noisy neighbours! ok ok I'm so sorry), or that they are just bad communicators, or they just talk to entities in quantum-etak-speak and just didn't noticed all the radio chatter until Bosch.

"Negative evidences" are ****ty like that.

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Because it's actually possible to speculate about one and then use inferences from previous events to support that speculation. In other words, they can be given weight and examined for their adherence to the overall FreeSpace story.

It is not possible in the case of the other, because the Shivans are already doing something they have never done before. It is impossible to apply inductive logic to the situation because we have no previous experience on which to build. Anything goes here; if all claims are equally valid, this usually is a sign that none have much validity to begin with.

Ok, so tell me where have the shivans blown up a solar system before Apocalypse?  And weren't you the one advocating just now how the shivans had communicated with humans before? We also have that phenomenal FS1 hallway cutscene that pretty much teaches us what to expect from shivan body language, so again I don't see here any qualitative meaningful difference, but I can agree to disagree here.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Shivans: Why only 1 Lucifer?
I read the theory and its interesting, but not sure I buy it.

After writing that wall of text, I learned that before it was called "Descent: Freespace 2", it was to not have "Descent" in it altogether and instead have quite the different subtitle.

And yes, that subtitle was apparently going to be "Exodus".

 

Offline ssmit132

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Re: Shivans: Why only 1 Lucifer?
Nitpicking here, but I don't think that FreeSpace 2 was ever planned to be called "Descent: FreeSpace 2". Of course, that's unrelated to the planned "Exodus" subtitle.

I think this contradiction is indeed inevitable, but it can be tamed and at the same time you can somewhat "have your cake and eat it", because the raw emotion you are tryiing to convey is vertigo

That's honestly the first time I've heard "vertigo" being referred to as an emotion... do you mean feeling mentally disorientated (in a way that feels similar to actual phyiscal veritgo) or something?

Silent Threat rather destroys the notion of the Shivans as uncommunicative. They not only communicated but participated in a massive joint project with the GTI which replicated some of their most powerful technologies.
This is a rather bold assertion; one you have failed to back up with any solid evidence.
I myself was confused with that statement, too. I don't recall hearing anything in the original Silent Threat that suggested that the Shivans were actively collaborating with the GTI. Granted, it's been a long time since I've played Silent Threat all the way through.

 
Re: Shivans: Why only 1 Lucifer?
I read the theory and its interesting, but not sure I buy it.

After writing that wall of text, I learned that before it was called "Descent: Freespace 2", it was to not have "Descent" in it altogether and instead have quite the different subtitle.

And yes, that subtitle was apparently going to be "Exodus".

Yes but what does that impart? Bosch likens himself to both Moses and the rebelling britons, but how does his journey actually compare to the story of the exodus?  He doesn't bring his people with him and instead allows them to be slaughtered like so much cattle. He doesn't flee his Egypt, he attacks and burns it and kills its people without the help of his God. He doesn't go up the mountain and bring his people a message. He reaches his promised land (contact with the shivans) whereas Moses never crossed the jordan. Even the event where he is taken is likened to Babel, a story wholly unrelated to moses where people challenged God and were cast out and scattered for it.

Factually speaking,
1-the only exodus of a people in Freespace 2 is the exodus of refugees from the Capella system.
2-The only event that mirrors the events of the Red Sea is not the explosion of the supernova, but the closure of the capella nodes by the GTVA. It was the GTVA that cut off the enemy from pursuing them. Many people died in the attempt but in the end it was they who played gods and decided the fate of their own people.
3-And the only people to reach a promised land was again, the GTVA, because they now have the means to return to Earth. The paradise of their ancestors.
4-AND in addition it's the GTVA that has been wandering the desert for nearly 40 years. Petrarch describes them as nomads. One can liken the Vasudans to the Egyptians but the Vasudans are nomads too.

Fact is, Moses was a peaceful man.  Bosch is a monster. He's a killer. He's a man who justifies genocide/xenocide by placing more importance on his own race. A man who "loves" humanity but lets humans get slaughtered by the droves including those who follow him. That's why we as the player pity him, he's not someone who has soared so high he's someone who has stooped so low. He made a deal with the devil and got more than he bargained for. If he's a prophet, he's a false one.

The only real way he can be likened to Moses is in helping the GTVA get to the promised land when he led them to the Knossos. But such an event could have theoretically been accomplished without all the bloodshed and he did this act indirectly, without purpose. He activated the Knossos to find the shivans, not bridge a path to Earth.


So your theory about Bosch being Moses may have SOME weight to it, even though he's not Moses for the reasons he believes, but a lot of the theory in my opinion doesn't fit the facts.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2014, 10:56:39 pm by Akalabeth Angel »

  
Re: Shivans: Why only 1 Lucifer?
By the way, why do people associate Aken Bosch with some painter guy?


Aken, is the Ferryman of the dead apparently in egyptian mythology. He's the guy who takes people into the underworld. In a similar way to Charon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aken_the_ferryman

Also Aken was described as being ram headed, and with that in mind has anyone ever looked at the Iceni?


It looks, surprise surprise, like a Ram with its head down. The ship even has the ****ing goatee! (even though this beautiful animal below does not)


It even has 2 BGreens where the horns eyes would be.


And what about Bosch?
Bosch means Bush. ( http://www.surnamedb.com/Surname/Bosch )

It is said to "The name may also be Ashkenasic and an illusion to the biblical story of the burning bush, from which God is supposed to spoken to Moses. "


There you go.
Ferry man of the dead who takes people into hell with his ram headed ship.
And burning bush, which leads to the exodus from capella and return to the promised land.

Not some random painter who once painted an apocalyptic painting like thousands of painters before him.


Revelations people. These here are free. Enjoy.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2014, 12:05:52 am by Akalabeth Angel »

 

Offline qwadtep

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Re: Shivans: Why only 1 Lucifer?
Also Aken was described as being ram headed, and with that in mind has anyone ever looked at the Iceni?
Please excuse me while I clean my mind off the walls.

 
Re: Shivans: Why only 1 Lucifer?
And if you really want some more revelations.

Aken is the Ferryman of the dead. Aken Bosch, as that individual with his goat-headed ship takes the dead, that is the NTF, into hell and the underworld.

Shivans are demon. They reside in hell.
Aken Bosch's monologues at the start of the game as well are not one of an oppressed people, they're one of a DEAD people.

"we live in the mausoleum of history."
"We inherit the legacy of ghosts who haunt these ruins."
"to guard the tomb of space, and to find within its cold expanse the salvation of our race

He's dead.
The NTF is dead.
They're all casualties of history, of past prejudices, they have nothing to live for and for many perspectives Bosch's crusade is one of seeking armageddon. He unleashes hell and nearly gets everyone killed.
The NTF civil war is one where the chosen people: the GTVA, is separated from the chaff and the dead, the NTF. Aken Bosch as ferry man leads his people into the underworld, into hell, to consort with demons and ultimately to die. Because as he's said all along he's already dead.

Is he hurtling himself into the void? Or into the abyss? Into the cold expanse of space? Or the cold embrace of death?

But Aken Bosch as Bosch is a symbol for the chosen people, he's a call to act, the burning bush. And act the GTVA does. It faces hell itself and in the end cuts off the enemy and saves itself with a triumphant return to their homes. Ending their near 40 year exile in the desert.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2014, 12:29:45 am by Akalabeth Angel »

 

Offline AdmiralRalwood

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Re: Shivans: Why only 1 Lucifer?
Aken Bosch's monologues at the start of the game as well are not one of an oppressed people, they're one of a DEAD people.

"we live in the mausoleum of history."
"We inherit the legacy of ghosts who haunt these ruins."
"to guard the tomb of space, and to find within its cold expanse the salvation of our race"
You say "Aken Bosch", and then you quote the nameless narrator from the introductory cutscene...

Metaphors along those lines aren't actually used by Bosch, who instead directly references the Odyssey and Exodus.
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Codethulhu GitHub wgah'nagl fhtagn.

schrödinbug (noun) - a bug that manifests itself in running software after a programmer notices that the code should never have worked in the first place.

When you gaze long into BMPMAN, BMPMAN also gazes into you.

"I am one of the best FREDders on Earth" -General Battuta

<Aesaar> literary criticism is vladimir putin

<MageKing17> "There's probably a reason the code is the way it is" is a very dangerous line of thought. :P
<MageKing17> Because the "reason" often turns out to be "nobody noticed it was wrong".
(the very next day)
<MageKing17> this ****ing code did it to me again
<MageKing17> "That doesn't really make sense to me, but I'll assume it was being done for a reason."
<MageKing17> **** ME
<MageKing17> THE REASON IS PEOPLE ARE STUPID
<MageKing17> ESPECIALLY ME

<MageKing17> God damn, I do not understand how this is breaking.
<MageKing17> Everything points to "this should work fine", and yet it's clearly not working.
<MjnMixael> 2 hours later... "God damn, how did this ever work at all?!"
(...)
<MageKing17> so
<MageKing17> more than two hours
<MageKing17> but once again we have reached the inevitable conclusion
<MageKing17> How did this code ever work in the first place!?

<@The_E> Welcome to OpenGL, where standards compliance is optional, and error reporting inconsistent

<MageKing17> It was all working perfectly until I actually tried it on an actual mission.

<IronWorks> I am useful for FSO stuff again. This is a red-letter day!
* z64555 erases "Thursday" and rewrites it in red ink

<MageKing17> TIL the entire homing code is held up by shoestrings and duct tape, basically.

 
Re: Shivans: Why only 1 Lucifer?
Aken Bosch's monologues at the start of the game as well are not one of an oppressed people, they're one of a DEAD people.

"we live in the mausoleum of history."
"We inherit the legacy of ghosts who haunt these ruins."
"to guard the tomb of space, and to find within its cold expanse the salvation of our race"
You say "Aken Bosch", and then you quote the nameless narrator from the introductory cutscene...

Metaphors along those lines aren't actually used by Bosch, who instead directly references the Odyssey and Exodus.

Hmmn, that's not entirely true.

"? Did the Ancients stumble upon the monoliths and the tombs of their predecessors in this distant corner of space, dismissing the warnings carved on the walls of the sepulchre? And when the Destroyers came at last, what did the Ancients think as they sifted the cremation of dust and bones, staring into the mute remains for a key, some solution to their plight. What if there had been countless races, stretching back into infinity? And like the 9 cities of Troy, each civilization had been built on the rubble of one that came before, each annihilated by the Shivans. "

You're right that it's not the same voice but I believe that it was intended to bosch. That may be entirely fan speculation though.

Bosch also wonders at one point if they are going into the "valley of kings", which is of course the place where all the dead pharoahs are buried.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Shivans: Why only 1 Lucifer?
We know Bosch refers to Hieronymous because his name of birth was Jheronimus Van Aken. I will deal with your points later but to just give you a quick feedback, I think your idea about the promised Land being earth and so on is indeed interesting, but I also think your portrayal of Moses as this Christ like peaceful figure is extraordinarily out of sync with his actual story. Let us remind ourselves that this man allies with a god that brings 10 plagues to Egypt for no other reason than to prove his might, he hardens the Pharaoh's heart and then condemns his people for it. This is a man that slaughters half of his own Hebrew tribe for daring to appease another god than Yahweh, ISIS style? I know people generally uncritically like this figure, but I also think freespace's interpretation of him is appropriate and legitimate.

E: I gotta say though, your idea regarding Aken the ram headed is both hilarious and very very smart. Could even be true! Made my day!
« Last Edit: July 31, 2014, 05:04:14 am by Luis Dias »

 

Offline cahdoge

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Re: Shivans: Why only 1 Lucifer?
There are at least 2 options of interpretation.

1. these words come from a Terran pilot born shortly before or after the great war.
     He grew up between the  ruins and devastation's the shivans have caused and finding new hope in the GTVA.
or
2. it's a kind of open letter from Bosch to his NTF followers decalring its main target.
Understanding do you me?

 

Offline AdmiralRalwood

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Re: Shivans: Why only 1 Lucifer?
The introductory cutscene is absolutely not shortly after the great war, and it is absolutely not Bosch, as we know from the very first sentence:

"Thirty-two years have passed since the Great War. The Shivans vanished half a lifetime ago, and now we live in the mausoleum of history. We inherit the legacy of ghosts who haunt these ruins. The elders call us the lost generation."

(Emphasis mine.)

"Did the Ancients stumble upon the monoliths and the tombs of their predecessors in this distant corner of space, dismissing the warnings carved on the walls of the sepulchre? And when the Destroyers came at last, what did the Ancients think as they sifted the cremation of dust and bones, staring into the mute remains for a key, some solution to their plight. What if there had been countless races, stretching back into infinity? And like the 9 cities of Troy, each civilization had been built on the rubble of one that came before, each annihilated by the Shivans."
Okay, well, he's referring to the Ancients and their theoretical predecessors, who are literally dead, but fair point anyway.
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Codethulhu GitHub wgah'nagl fhtagn.

schrödinbug (noun) - a bug that manifests itself in running software after a programmer notices that the code should never have worked in the first place.

When you gaze long into BMPMAN, BMPMAN also gazes into you.

"I am one of the best FREDders on Earth" -General Battuta

<Aesaar> literary criticism is vladimir putin

<MageKing17> "There's probably a reason the code is the way it is" is a very dangerous line of thought. :P
<MageKing17> Because the "reason" often turns out to be "nobody noticed it was wrong".
(the very next day)
<MageKing17> this ****ing code did it to me again
<MageKing17> "That doesn't really make sense to me, but I'll assume it was being done for a reason."
<MageKing17> **** ME
<MageKing17> THE REASON IS PEOPLE ARE STUPID
<MageKing17> ESPECIALLY ME

<MageKing17> God damn, I do not understand how this is breaking.
<MageKing17> Everything points to "this should work fine", and yet it's clearly not working.
<MjnMixael> 2 hours later... "God damn, how did this ever work at all?!"
(...)
<MageKing17> so
<MageKing17> more than two hours
<MageKing17> but once again we have reached the inevitable conclusion
<MageKing17> How did this code ever work in the first place!?

<@The_E> Welcome to OpenGL, where standards compliance is optional, and error reporting inconsistent

<MageKing17> It was all working perfectly until I actually tried it on an actual mission.

<IronWorks> I am useful for FSO stuff again. This is a red-letter day!
* z64555 erases "Thursday" and rewrites it in red ink

<MageKing17> TIL the entire homing code is held up by shoestrings and duct tape, basically.

 
Re: Shivans: Why only 1 Lucifer?
The introductory cutscene is absolutely not shortly after the great war, and it is absolutely not Bosch, as we know from the very first sentence:

"Thirty-two years have passed since the Great War. The Shivans vanished half a lifetime ago, and now we live in the mausoleum of history. We inherit the legacy of ghosts who haunt these ruins. The elders call us the lost generation."

(Emphasis mine.)

Explain to me how it is "absolutely not Bosch"? The voice is different yes.
But people here are attributing "salvation of our race" to Bosch. So if not's Bosch, then who is it? "Now we forge a new alliance" who is that? Petrarch? The black guy? Some random guy we never hear from again?

We know Bosch refers to Hieronymous because his name of birth was Jheronimus Van Aken.

That might explain his colourful monologues, but it seems secondary to the other associations.

I will deal with your points later but to just give you a quick feedback, I think your idea about the promised Land being earth and so on is indeed interesting, but I also think your portrayal of Moses as this Christ like peaceful figure is extraordinarily out of sync with his actual story. Let us remind ourselves that this man allies with a god that brings 10 plagues to Egypt for no other reason than to prove his might, he hardens the Pharaoh's heart and then condemns his people for it. This is a man that slaughters half of his own Hebrew tribe for daring to appease another god than Yahweh, ISIS style? I know people generally uncritically like this figure, but I also think freespace's interpretation of him is appropriate and legitimate.

What story exactly? Whose version of events?

The common story, in the bible is a a series of events where Moses says "let my people go" then Pharoah says "no, screw you, I'll give them more work instead" basically.

Or when the plagues come upon the land, Pharaoh says "okay, get rid of the plague and I'll let them go" and when the plague is taken away Pharaoh says "oh wait, I changed my mind. You can't go" and so on and so forth until he's forced to let them go and even after he lets them go, he still changes his mind and chases them with his army. He breaks his promises over and over and punishes the hebrews for it. Is that the original version? I don't know but it's the version that we know.

http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Exodus-Chapter-5/


E: I gotta say though, your idea regarding Aken the ram headed is both hilarious and very very smart. Could even be true! Made my day!

Thanks.


Moses at the time of his death was also supposed to meet Azrael, the angel of death. Sammael, one of the cruisers during that mission is also the angel of death.

Azmedaj, the other cruiser not sure. Medhaj might be an indian name and az might be some article of speech.


 

Offline AdmiralRalwood

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Re: Shivans: Why only 1 Lucifer?
The introductory cutscene is absolutely not shortly after the great war, and it is absolutely not Bosch, as we know from the very first sentence:

"Thirty-two years have passed since the Great War. The Shivans vanished half a lifetime ago, and now we live in the mausoleum of history. We inherit the legacy of ghosts who haunt these ruins. The elders call us the lost generation."

(Emphasis mine.)

Explain to me how it is "absolutely not Bosch"? The voice is different yes.
Yes, the voice is different, and the speaker is speaking from thirty-two years after the Great War. Pop quiz: when does FreeSpace 2's main campaign take place?

But people here are attributing "salvation of our race" to Bosch.
The only person I can find reference to attributing that line to Bosch is you.

Some random guy we never hear from again?
Since we never hear that voice again, yes.
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Codethulhu GitHub wgah'nagl fhtagn.

schrödinbug (noun) - a bug that manifests itself in running software after a programmer notices that the code should never have worked in the first place.

When you gaze long into BMPMAN, BMPMAN also gazes into you.

"I am one of the best FREDders on Earth" -General Battuta

<Aesaar> literary criticism is vladimir putin

<MageKing17> "There's probably a reason the code is the way it is" is a very dangerous line of thought. :P
<MageKing17> Because the "reason" often turns out to be "nobody noticed it was wrong".
(the very next day)
<MageKing17> this ****ing code did it to me again
<MageKing17> "That doesn't really make sense to me, but I'll assume it was being done for a reason."
<MageKing17> **** ME
<MageKing17> THE REASON IS PEOPLE ARE STUPID
<MageKing17> ESPECIALLY ME

<MageKing17> God damn, I do not understand how this is breaking.
<MageKing17> Everything points to "this should work fine", and yet it's clearly not working.
<MjnMixael> 2 hours later... "God damn, how did this ever work at all?!"
(...)
<MageKing17> so
<MageKing17> more than two hours
<MageKing17> but once again we have reached the inevitable conclusion
<MageKing17> How did this code ever work in the first place!?

<@The_E> Welcome to OpenGL, where standards compliance is optional, and error reporting inconsistent

<MageKing17> It was all working perfectly until I actually tried it on an actual mission.

<IronWorks> I am useful for FSO stuff again. This is a red-letter day!
* z64555 erases "Thursday" and rewrites it in red ink

<MageKing17> TIL the entire homing code is held up by shoestrings and duct tape, basically.

 
Re: Shivans: Why only 1 Lucifer?
The introductory cutscene is absolutely not shortly after the great war, and it is absolutely not Bosch, as we know from the very first sentence:

"Thirty-two years have passed since the Great War. The Shivans vanished half a lifetime ago, and now we live in the mausoleum of history. We inherit the legacy of ghosts who haunt these ruins. The elders call us the lost generation."

(Emphasis mine.)

Explain to me how it is "absolutely not Bosch"? The voice is different yes.
Yes, the voice is different, and the speaker is speaking from thirty-two years after the Great War. Pop quiz: when does FreeSpace 2's main campaign take place?

32 years or more.

The dialogue is talking about forging a new alliance.

The GTVA was formed 10 years after the great war from what I understand. So the new alliance is the not the GTVA.


But people here are attributing "salvation of our race" to Bosch.
The only person I can find reference to attributing that line to Bosch is you.

Luis attributes the actions of Bosch to fulfilling the text of the speech.
If he's not fulfilling his own words, then whose words are they?

Some random guy we never hear from again?
Since we never hear that voice again, yes.

I recall seeing trivia that it was supposed to be Bosch at one point. But can't find the reference.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2014, 01:31:00 pm by Akalabeth Angel »