Author Topic: Police militarization in the US, and its consequences  (Read 25075 times)

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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Police militarization in the US, and its consequences
This arrest was brought to you by Adidas, the world's best manufacturer of prisoner's uniforms!

 

Offline Dragon

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Re: Police militarization in the US, and its consequences
Being able to watch live streams of your local police officers on patrol would be awesome and informative. Then you could vote for the best cop and the winner would get a free box of donuts. All the winners could then have their clips go to state and eventually national level and the ultimate best cop winner gets a free trip to Hawaii sponsored by Krispy Kreme. The only problem is what do you do if the winner is from Hawaii?
Send him somewhere else. :) Once he gets back, he'll feel like he's at the most wonderful post in the world. Again, cops are not marines. Only the latter are capable of complaining about Hawaii, having already been somewhere else. :)

 

Offline Aardwolf

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Re: Police militarization in the US, and its consequences
So yeah, my earlier question, again: what's the deal with the NFZ?

Police claim that one of their helicopters was shot at, so they had the FAA impose a no-fly zone up to 3000 feet.  Detractors of the decision state that this is a means of partially blacking out the media, by preventing news helicopters from hovering over the area film from overhead.

Ahhh. So they're pretending it's for the safety of the people flying.

* Aardwolf thinks

Yeah, I'ma stick with "pretending".

 

Offline swashmebuckle

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Re: Police militarization in the US, and its consequences
This arrest was brought to you by Adidas, the world's best manufacturer of prisoner's uniforms!
Makes liberals happy by preventing cops from abusing power, makes the state and its corporate masters money through ads, entertains drooling masses. The only losers are the cops who were in it for the power abuse, but even they can enjoy the 15 minutes of fame that precede their arrest by the photogenic law dispensers of the future!

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Police militarization in the US, and its consequences
-snip-

-snip-

Did you two actually look at the phrase I quoted before you went off?  Did you read the post?  Because I think you need to read it again.

My point was that Lorric's original statement - "nothing to hide, therefore why object" - is used to justify unjust surveillance, monitoring, and privacy violations of the public all. the. time.  And it's soundly rejected there, as it should be.  It is no more legitimate for police than anyone else.  It presumes that the innocent don't need privacy.

There are many good argument why police should carry bodycams.  THAT is not one of them.
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Offline Lorric

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Re: Police militarization in the US, and its consequences
-snip-

-snip-

Did you two actually look at the phrase I quoted before you went off?  Did you read the post?  Because I think you need to read it again.

My point was that Lorric's original statement - "nothing to hide, therefore why object" - is used to justify unjust surveillance, monitoring, and privacy violations of the public all. the. time.  And it's soundly rejected there, as it should be.  It is no more legitimate for police than anyone else.  It presumes that the innocent don't need privacy.

There are many good argument why police should carry bodycams.  THAT is not one of them.
Well maybe the phrase is causing confusion. Do you object to the police being filmed in a situation such as Ferguson, or in the course of making arrests? I know I'd want a camera to be rolling if I was arrested.

 

Offline mjn.mixael

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Re: Police militarization in the US, and its consequences
Lorric, you completely missed it. MP-Ryan is not against filming the police. He is simply saying that "they should have nothing to hide" is a terrible terrible argument for any kind of surveillance ever. But he also said that there are good arguments for surveillance.

"they should have nothing to hide" presumes that privacy is not a right. That is the reason it is a terrible, very bad argument. You need an argument for surveillance that shows why the benefits of losing privacy are outweighed by a constantly-on camera... such as "there is evidence that cameras on police causes police abuse of authority to drop significantly."
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Offline Dragon

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Re: Police militarization in the US, and its consequences
Except that privacy is not a right when talking Police officers, as well as other "public" positions. This is what I was talking about. The moment you put on the uniform, you stop being a private person. You become a policeman, a marine, a fireman... Private life should have no bearing on what you do in uniform. You've got to enforce the law, defend your country or put out fires. There's no place for anything "private"  as long as you are on duty. That was what I said. Police have no right for privacy from the moment they put on the uniform to the moment they take it off. This should not impede them in any way, too. A police officer exists only for other people. To protect them and serve them. After hours, they might be whoever they want, but during them, they're Police.

This also extends to other people with a lot of power and responsibility. A civil servant, politician, diplomat or whatever should cleanly separate their own, private selves from the functions they fulfill. They have no uniforms, and the time they're "on duty" is a bit muddled, but the general idea is the same. I would not be opposed to filming politicians 24/7, (with the exception of times when they're on vacation, and as such "off duty"), either. This would certainly improve accountability and government transparency. A politician should have the good of his country in mind, not anything related to whoever he is in private. The country not only goes first, it's the only thing that goes as long as you're an official and not a private person. The government (especially the military) might keep secrets, of course, but they have special agencies which are specifically meant for doing covert stuff.

 

Offline Lorric

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Re: Police militarization in the US, and its consequences
And if the police are shutting down the ability to take video evidence in a situation where the police themselves are the ones who stand accused of criminal activity, where is your evidence going to come from other than the police themselves?

 

Offline pecenipicek

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Re: Police militarization in the US, and its consequences
Except that privacy is not a right when talking Police officers, as well as other "public" positions. This is what I was talking about. The moment you put on the uniform, you stop being a private person. You become a policeman, a marine, a fireman... Private life should have no bearing on what you do in uniform. You've got to enforce the law, defend your country or put out fires. There's no place for anything "private"  as long as you are on duty. That was what I said. Police have no right for privacy from the moment they put on the uniform to the moment they take it off. This should not impede them in any way, too. A police officer exists only for other people. To protect them and serve them. After hours, they might be whoever they want, but during them, they're Police.

This also extends to other people with a lot of power and responsibility. A civil servant, politician, diplomat or whatever should cleanly separate their own, private selves from the functions they fulfill. They have no uniforms, and the time they're "on duty" is a bit muddled, but the general idea is the same. I would not be opposed to filming politicians 24/7, (with the exception of times when they're on vacation, and as such "off duty"), either. This would certainly improve accountability and government transparency. A politician should have the good of his country in mind, not anything related to whoever he is in private. The country not only goes first, it's the only thing that goes as long as you're an official and not a private person. The government (especially the military) might keep secrets, of course, but they have special agencies which are specifically meant for doing covert stuff.
i will just point out that this HEAVILY depends on the country in question and what their actual laws proscribe... yeah, sure, its a good guideline, but dont think thats how it works in the real life.


as for the topic... le sigh.
thankfully, the police here dont have access to much military gear ( "much" == handguns are former military issue/they use the same make of i think 9mm handguns)
and the specials.... well... if you get a strong desire to get the **** out of the way of these guys when you see them going anywhere, i like to think that they are doing their job right.

street cops & our "special unit", heavier outfit...
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Offline Aardwolf

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Re: Police militarization in the US, and its consequences
Pretty sure Dragon was talking "should" and not "is"

 

Offline Mars

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Re: Police militarization in the US, and its consequences
To be fair, this was supposedly a SWAT team in military gear - but I don't think most countries special police forces are nearly as numerous or well armed. Former soviet bloc states seem to still have some of that going on as well though (The 9A91 and other 9X39mm weapons scream oppressive state to me)

 

Offline Dragon

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Re: Police militarization in the US, and its consequences
i will just point out that this HEAVILY depends on the country in question and what their actual laws proscribe... yeah, sure, its a good guideline, but dont think thats how it works in the real life.
Like Aardwolf said, I was talking theory, what civil service should entail for people. Or rather, what it still does entail, it's just people don't live up to that standard. Indeed, what I was talking about is only adhered to by few, select individuals who know what being a civil servant (of any kind) really means. No law has ever forced that, this world isn't that good. Of course it usually doesn't work out like this in practice, people like having power with no responsibility. This is, in my opinion, fundamentally and morally wrong. Strict monitoring of those in power could force them to actually "uphold their end of the bargain", which is exactly why it isn't going to happen - the very same people would have to agree to it and enforce it. It would also make power much less appealing, especially in hard times.

 

Offline Bobboau

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Re: Police militarization in the US, and its consequences
I have not been following the details of this, but...
So yeah, my earlier question, again: what's the deal with the NFZ?

What the ****?
y'all might not be aware of this but the Ferguson area is directly in the line of flights coming and going to and from St.Louis's only real airport how the **** can they put a no fly zone over the area to the immediate end of the runway of the only air port? this is actually part of the reason that part of town turned into a ****hole, no one who could afford it wanted to live under the landing/taking off airplanes.

or does it only pertain to news helicopters?
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Offline Aardwolf

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Re: Police militarization in the US, and its consequences
According to some of the replies, it's only below 3000 feet... so maybe that makes a difference? I wonder just how such a request gets processed...

 

Offline Bobboau

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Re: Police militarization in the US, and its consequences
which is exactly the altitude range one would expect to find landing aircraft.
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Offline Dragon

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Re: Police militarization in the US, and its consequences
I have not been following the details of this, but...
So yeah, my earlier question, again: what's the deal with the NFZ?

What the ****?
y'all might not be aware of this but the Ferguson area is directly in the line of flights coming and going to and from St.Louis's only real airport how the **** can they put a no fly zone over the area to the immediate end of the runway of the only air port? this is actually part of the reason that part of town turned into a ****hole, no one who could afford it wanted to live under the landing/taking off airplanes.

or does it only pertain to news helicopters?
That's something I didn't know about. An NFZ up to 3000ft would indeed cut the airport off completely. They didn't just cut off news helos, they cut off the entire air traffic in and out of the area!

 

Offline Aardwolf

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Re: Police militarization in the US, and its consequences
I would think if they had cut off all air traffic in and out of St. Louis I'd have heard about all the angry travelers... St. Louis is a major hub, isn't it?

But then again, maybe I wouldn't have heard about it. Maybe I don't listen to the right channels.



So... anyone got any guesses as to how such a request gets processed? Whose office at the FAA it goes through, and who in Ferguson had to get on the line with them? And perhaps, to whom at the FAA should the angry travelers address their hate-mail? Or the journalists whose first amendment right was denied on the basis of "for your own safety".

 

Offline S-99

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Re: Police militarization in the US, and its consequences
The "paintball marker" takes a while to notice, and it's the only indication they're not the military.
I don't see how this picture was taken out of context since the topic is about militarization of police, and will show off the militarizing of police. Dude with the paintball gun makes me think sadist perhaps since he's the only one with a paintball gun. I'm back btw.
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Re: Police militarization in the US, and its consequences
The "paintball marker" takes a while to notice, and it's the only indication they're not the military.
I don't see how this picture was taken out of context since the topic is about militarization of police, and will show off the militarizing of police. Dude with the paintball gun makes me think sadist perhaps since he's the only one with a paintball gun. I'm back btw.

I'd rather get shot with a pepper ball then with the actual bullets the rest of these forces seem to be using.