[Mr. Vega]

I fail to see how blanket disrespecting 1.6 billion people, an entire religion, and dozens of cultures helps in the slightest.

A culture that largely says that if you change your religion you should be killed is a culture I want very far away from me, and in fact one I would like to see end entirely. If you are not part of that culture, or you want to escape that culture (I am implying assimilation into another one here) even if you have a religion that goes by the same name as the one practiced compulsorily by the people in that culture, then I welcome you. But if you are going to be my neighbor and continue to hold on to ideas like "it's OK to murder your daughter because she talked to a boy" then we are going to have problems.

There does seem to be something about Islam. Not saying it's something that cannot be fixed and is something ingrained in every muslim, but why is it that we've had all of these middle class westerner kids flying over to Syria to murder kafirs? there is a problem here.

You're not going to believe this, but all but an infinitesimal fraction of Muslims do not engage in killing people for religious reasons. They are people with normal lives and families and struggle with reconciling nasty parts of the Koran with their innate morality the same way Christians have to reconcile the Old Testament with reality, to the point that this really does not need to be said (and yet it seems it has to be everytime something like this happens). Some of them talk **** about people who are not Muslims, which you will of course NEVER EVER see in America's Christian community.

So, for the love of god, do not point your finger at "Muslims". To be that broad is to engage in outrageous slander. There are plenty of Jews who really are kniving and greedy! Who cares? Be very, very specific about who and what particular groups and philosophies you are talking about. Or I'm going to demand you apologize for Timothy McVeigh.

Also, a question for y'all - what do you think the culture of the Deep South would look like if it were a destitute war zone? Spoiler: every abortion clinic in sight would be bombed out of existence by now.

You wanna put some blame on religion, go ahead. But this Islamic Exceptionalism I'm hearing smacks of several other -isms.

[666maslo666]

I do think deep south for all its faults is less crazy and conservative than muslims are.

The equivalent of muslims are those christian extremists in subsaharan Africa that sometimes burn witches and want death penalty for gays. But at least those stick to themselves and dont emigrate into Europe.

Also newsflash: religions differ in the proportion and danger of their extremists. And Islam is probably the worst currently. Is that "Islamic exceptionalism"? Maybe, doesnt make it any less true IMHO.

[Mr. Vega]

I do think deep south for all its faults is less crazy and conservative than muslims are.

You do not understand what I just said. Why have they produced more crazy people? Because Islam is just that inheritly more violent? Or because, I don't know, maybe the Middle East IS POOR AS ****?

I don't need to engage in some pseudoscientific inquiry as to which teachings produce more violence (although I applaud the irony that actual scientists are now at the forefront of this pastime). I simply need to observe that religious extremism tends to get worse with increasing poverty, all other things being equal (such as the presence of scriptures with passages that extoll the virtue of violence for the faith), for reasons which I should not have to go into, look at just how poor the average Muslim in Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan is, and grab my coat and go home, content with the fact that I understand this aspect of the world I live in damn well enough.

[Flipside]

Thing is, this isn't about Islam, that's just the boat it sailed in on. Truth is, Jihadists are no more serving the 'Will of God' than the Crusaders were, unless you consider God to be men who, whilst claiming a firm belief in some kind of paradise for a glorious death in battle, seem to be strangely in no rush to get there themselves.

This is about resources, power, education, money and  the imbalance of them throughout the world, both perceived and actual, and about the fact it's just as easy to say 'A Superpower did it and ran away' as it is to say 'It's for the sake of National Security'.

Extremist Islam is to blame for Terrorism in the same way that flames are to blame for fire.

[666maslo666]

I do agree that poverty is an important factor (not the only one tough).

But it is no excuse. There can be no excuse for religious extremism.

[Mr. Vega]

I do agree that poverty is an important factor (not the only one tough).

But it is no excuse. There can be no excuse for religious extremism.

Yes! We should not be slandering Muslims who have been already slandered quite enough. We should be condemning those who by interpreting the Koran in the worst possible light are able to take advantage of their desperate countrymen to further their own power and have a good time hurting and intimidating others.

[Bobboau]

Or because, I don't know, maybe the Middle East IS POOR AS ****?

why did a bunch of middle class kids from the US and the UK and IIRC France and a few other places in Europe go to fight for ISIS?

also, are you implying that the culture of the deep south of the US does NOT have some major problems that need addressing? because if you are not implying that then I don't know why you are using that as a counterexample to what I said.

[Mr. Vega]

Or because, I don't know, maybe the Middle East IS POOR AS ****?

why did a bunch of middle class kids from the US and the UK and IIRC France and a few other places in Europe go to fight for ISIS?

How many of them felt welcome in their own society?

Remember the riots in France a few years back over the killing of a Muslim teenager by police? Much, much worse than the Michael Brown unrest?

BTW I would like to know just how large those numbers of middle class emigrants are.

[Bobboau]

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/iraq-war-on-terror/losing-iraq/why-are-so-many-westerners-joining-isis/

~2,500

can you think of any similar situations with different religions?

[0rph3u5]

I've been talking with old friends and collegues in France since noon ... This one struck deep...

Saldy, the dark days are those which will be coming next when the shock wears off and everyone either instrumentalizes the memory of the dead or falls to headless activism ...

[Dragon]

This just keeps getting worse. Because IS achieves victories, Islamic fanatics from all over the world flock to them, which strengthens them, letting them achieve more victories... That's a rather difficult situation to stop. I'm afraid this might have gone too far, they're essentially a separate country now. A country that keeps expanding. They have jet fighters, armor and a large enough military to count as more than a terrorist group. They might have already crossed a point when just killing them will be able to uproot them. Of course, you could just burn down/execute the whole state, but genocide is generally frowned upon these days (though given everything, I'd support such a thing, should it happen).

The scary thing about IS is that they actually seem to push towards establishing a functioning Caliphate, instead of just trying to terrorize everyone. They're calling for skilled technicians and doctors, meaning that they do have a plan to establish a functioning state. They are not a gathering of religion-crazed madmen, at least not anymore. If this continues, I'm afraid that we are going to have a large Arab state on our hands, united by a despotic, violent and highly anti-Western (but disturbingly stable, and likely very well armed) theocracy. The very existence of both Iraq and Syria might soon be threatened (or already is).

Islamic State needs to be destroyed. At this point, I'm personally willing to accept witch hunts, genocide, or even nuclear weapons. Something needs to be done, and we're running out of something that would help. They are targeting the entire non-Sunni world (yes, that means Shia and other Muslim denominations aren't safe, either) and every Sunni area that they don't control already. My only hope is that the next attack happens in Russia and kills someone important enough to piss off Putin and the Russian oligarchs. Indeed, I'd gladly see the entire IS relocated to Siberia and worked to death in Gulags. If anyone deserves this fate, it's them (and yes, forced prisoner labor is still a thing in Russia). Given how they run thing, they might be too smart for that, though...

[Bobboau]

...

you might be overestimating their capabilities. and overreacting a little. though I certainly agree they need to be crushed, and I think they are. They seem to have stalled since shortly after we started bombing them. Nuclear genocide seems to be a bit unnecessary.

[Col.Hornet]

Jets? man are you serious? They only managed to capture some migs from Syrian Air Force (al Tabqa air base for example) while they were on the ground and the crews of air bases were retreating. They may have them but forget them to use it. Neither fly or maintain in operational status. Planes are far too complicated equipment to be used by these savages, even soviet ones. You need to know some physics, mechanics etc. As far as I remember Qua-ran doesn't say anything about maintaining jet fighters.  BTW are you aware that every coalition pilot wouldn't miss an occasion to paint an aerial kill marking on his/her bird Yes, IS has a lot of advanced weaponry, mainly thanks to US deliveries for FSA -.-, captured Abrams tanks stolen from the Iraqis  (but it doesn't seem that they use them effectively due to the poor training). The worse are rifles and anti tank weapons (mainly US- made TOW launchers and Russian Konkurs and Kornets) And let's not forget some shoulder launched anti air rockets.

Yes, their forces are strong but they can be smashed like cockroaches as well.

But you are right in one thing. Their recent victories may encourage a lot brainwashed idiots to do such things as we have seen today in Paris. 

[Flipside]

I hate to say it, but I think 'Radicalized' is the new 'Gangsta' in a lot of young middle-class Muslims eyes. For most of them it's harmless enough, they'll end up with a mortgage and kids and end their rebellious days the same as the rest of us, but you always get that one kid in each group who takes it too far and ends up either dead or in jail.

[Dragon]

You need to know some physics, mechanics etc.

Yes, you do, and they know that. Have you seen what they said lately? "We need technicians and doctors". I'm not going to bet my life on there not being a single fanatical pilot in the world. They can and eventually will get people capable of keeping advanced equipment they captured in order. That is the problem, especially in light of recent victories (which are bound to make at least some people think that siding with them is a good idea). It might be also that to young, religious people, even well-educated ones, what IS does really does have some kind of romantic, rebellious flair. They get a steady flow of recruits from places where people should really know better, and from places where technical education is easier to come by.

Sure, bombing has slowed them down, but it's not affecting them enough to stop them. It's a bit too imprecise to be really damaging. They are not savages anymore. Their leaders may be nuts, but way too many people joined them by now, some rather educated. The planes are old Soviet junk, but the very idea of Islamic State running some semblance of an air force is unsettling. Of course, they'd likely be quickly overwhelmed if they tried to use them against Coalition bombers, but these things have other uses as well. Besides, they're not really less advanced than what the rest of the region operates. The point is, IS is slowly advancing toward being able to call itself a fully functioning state. I don't think we can afford that.

you might be overestimating their capabilities. and overreacting a little. though I certainly agree they need to be crushed, and I think they are. They seem to have stalled since shortly after we started bombing them. Nuclear genocide seems to be a bit unnecessary.

Well, it might not be beyond the point when other options are not viable, but it will soon be, if things keep going like they are. Islamic State is evolving into actual state with a large, organized army and an actual logistical and technical base. They're no longer a bunch of bearded savages hiding around caves. Their recruitment strategy is well thought out, and their military will soon be able to match other forces in the region. I'm not afraid of them conquering the world or anything, but I do think that they're in a state where another 9/11 happening is a realistic concern. The benefits of a large-scale extermination campaign (whether by WMDs or other means) might soon outweigh the costs.

[Phantom Hoover]

jesus christ dragon isis aren't the ****ing borg

you've literally suggested genocide as a means of containing them, i mean what the **** even for you that's disgusting

[Bobboau]

...

The course of action you are proposing would have unforeseen consequences.

and...
If we wiped out 1.6 billion people (not trying to mischaracterize you but this really sounds like what you are saying, please correct me if I am misguided here) even if you count "we" as the 2.5 billion who (generously) could be called western civilization, and we wiped out 1.6 billion people, and lets be REALLY ****ing generous and say half of them wanted to kill us and also were going to try, so we are killing 800 million innocent people, directly, and probably at least about that many of our own people and nutral 3rd parties due to the effects of fallout. when they lacked the capabilities to end us, and were not in the process of actively attacking us. and we end their line, we wipe them out. doesn't that kinda make us the badies?

can we at least wait until they are kinda close to being able to kill us before resorting to full on genocide?

[karajorma]

I'm not religious but every once in a while the universe conspires to make me believe in Karma

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-30721021




Dragon. I think it's time we drew the line on your decision to always get up on your soapbox and preach your world view at every opportunity. Your comments on ISIS have typically been divorced from reality but this is getting stupid. Calls for genocide in response to a terrorist attack are going way too far and will stop now. In fact they will definitely stop because you're not posting on Gen Discuss for a week.

Similarly, the next person to make a bigoted comment about Muslims is also getting time off.

[Mongoose]

First and last warning to everyone:  any suggestions of blatant racism and/or genocide are completely unacceptable and will be dealt with harshly.  End of story.

[karajorma]

I fail to see how blanket disrespecting 1.6 billion people, an entire religion, and dozens of cultures helps in the slightest.

A culture that largely says that if you change your religion you should be killed is a culture I want very far away from me, and in fact one I would like to see end entirely. If you are not part of that culture, or you want to escape that culture (I am implying assimilation into another one here) even if you have a religion that goes by the same name as the one practiced compulsorily by the people in that culture, then I welcome you. But if you are going to be my neighbor and continue to hold on to ideas like "it's OK to murder your daughter because she talked to a boy" then we are going to have problems.

Did you notice that you had to switch to using the word culture rather than continuing to use religion?

That alone should have showed you that you're making a huge mistake blaming Islam for this.

can you think of any similar situations with different religions?

I'd say that the Christian Survivialist movement is very similar actually. A lot of them are eagerly waiting for the moment society falls so that they can start shooting people. I think the main difference between the two is nothing to do with religion but the fact that survivalists don't believe the moment for violence has come yet. If the Canadian border was like Northern Iraq, they'd be driving up there, guns in hand, right now.