Author Topic: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.  (Read 60977 times)

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Offline SF-Junky

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Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
You should really try TAGs out. They’re not just viable but maybe overpowered.
I indeed did so in High Noon. But what's the benefit in, say, Return to Babel? Effectively it gives you one mere AAA beam. If you manage to hit a target with a missile you might as well use a salvo of Tornados which will do a much faster and more effective way killing it.

I appreciate that you put that feature in as it makes sense within in the in-universe logic. But gameplay-wise... I'm not convinced.

 

Offline Rhymes

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Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
How about in Endgame, where half the NTF is coming at you and the Colossus?
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Try it out. You’ll like it. We actually had to nerf it a fair bit from the first version.

 

Offline DefCynodont119

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Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
IMHO The morning star should have at least a small amount of push, like the same as the flail or less, to keep it consistent with canon.

Having a briefing segment explicitly claim that it's a successor to the flail and is designed to alter the course of targets, then for it not to do that is kinda jarring.

Quote from: Battle of the Wilderness COMMAND BRIEFING stage 7

GTW ML-70 Morning Star

Two next-generation weapons are now available: the Morning Star and the EMP missile. The GTW ML-70 Morning Star improves upon the Flail gun developed during the Great War. Recent advances in high-temperature optics enable the primary focusing chamber of the Morning Star to produce a more coherent charge. Though an energy weapon, the Morning Star has a powerful kinetic effect on its target.

This briefing stage is unchanged in FSBlue by the way.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2019, 02:28:04 pm by DefCynodont119 »
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Offline SF-Junky

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Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
The Flail has a much higher kinetic effect than the Morning Star btw. :p

 

Offline DefCynodont119

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Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
The Flail has a much higher kinetic effect than the Morning Star btw. :p

Really? huh, I've been playing a lot of Between the Ashes so It's possible that the BtA version of the Flail was massively nerfed and I didn't notice.  :drevil:

Or I'm so used to being shot at by it, that I no longer see kinetic weapons as annoying. lol.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2019, 04:42:41 pm by DefCynodont119 »
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Offline Iain Baker

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Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Re the whole morning Star thing. Would it have been possible to keep the morning star as it was in retail - with a bump in effectiveness perhaps, and then implement the blue long range fighter-mounted cwis of death as a brand new weapon? That way everyone would have been happy.

Or would this have been more complicated than it sounds? (Genuine question)
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Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
AFAIK the idea behind FSBlue was to keep the FS2 tool set while making the gameplay better, so no new weapons (but I've never played it :nervous: ).

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
There’s no dialogue to describe new weapons so there won’t be any new weapons.

 
Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Besides that, I have to agree with DefCynodont too regarding the CB describing the Morningstar:

IMHO The morning star should have at least a small amount of push, like the same as the flail or less, to keep it consistent with canon.

Having a briefing segment explicitly claim that it's a successor to the flail and is designed to alter the course of targets, then for it not to do that is kinda jarring.

Quote from: Battle of the Wilderness COMMAND BRIEFING stage 7

GTW ML-70 Morning Star

Two next-generation weapons are now available: the Morning Star and the EMP missile. The GTW ML-70 Morning Star improves upon the Flail gun developed during the Great War. Recent advances in high-temperature optics enable the primary focusing chamber of the Morning Star to produce a more coherent charge. Though an energy weapon, the Morning Star has a powerful kinetic effect on its target.

This briefing stage is unchanged in FSBlue by the way.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
It’d be nice to have the CB not be a total lie but it’s also nice to have the Morningstar be a usable weapon. So there’s trade offs. The dialogue there is fairly ambiguous about what the Morningstar does if you’ve never met it before.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
What I would like to do is make something other than EMP missiles useful against the stealth fighters in Proving Grounds.

 
Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
The problem with just buffing the stats of the MS without changing the effect is that the effect is almost completely useless. It's not even that much of a pushback and if you buff the effect you still end up with a questionably useful one. On the other hand the kinetic effect makes it hard to put this on hostile fighters.
On difficulties below insane the player is going to be much harder to kill meaning a gun config focusing on pure damage won't work as well thanks to the huge survivability buffs the player has and the firerate penalties for the AI. So just knocking them around with kinetic weapons or wasting their time with EMPs can be pretty effective and somewhat frustrating.

Against things that are actually hostile why would you want to push them away outside your tempest range when you can just take the Prom S and kill them?
So if you only buff the stats you end up with a decent DPS gun with a reasonable energy cost. So you take it over the Subach just for the stats and then later switch to prom S, again, just for the stats. The core question for FS2 and BP-era weapons will always be "Why would I want this over the Prom S or Balor?" And if you make something better than those guns on raw stats then it'll just become the new measuring stick. That's why most weapons were given some unique selling point that might make you want to actually use them over the balanced stat kings of the PromS and Balor.

Sure, you could add a non-zero blast force to the shockwave or a kinetic effect on direct hits just to stay somewhat consistent with that one Cbrief but you go back to the problem of it being far more powerful against the player than when being used by the player. I mean, most players probably wouldn't even notice if it did have a small kinetic effect in the shockwave since it deals actual damage now. For ships to really veer off course you need a lot of consecutive hits. You hit something a lot with this Morningstar and it will probably just die. And then you could table a new Morning Star#hostile that has no kinetic effect and is fine to put on hostile ships. But that's a lot of added complexity to stay consistent with one Cbrief.
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Offline Kiloku

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Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
So, I'm replaying FS:Blue and I'm pretty sure this behavior isn't in retail, but in King's Gambit, the Mjolnirs miss the Uhuru completely. I recorded a video of the problem. When comparing it to the videos on the Wiki, I can tell that the destroyer was supposed to take most of its damage from the Mjolnirs. 

I get that the mission was a bit too easy on retail, but now it's too hard! My only successful attempt required me to empty all my secondaries to disable the Uhuru's engines and then let my wingmen finish it.



And here's one of the two videos of the retail version on the wiki.
Potato!

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Bluuuuuggh that stupid mission

 

Offline Kiloku

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Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
That's exactly how I feel.
Potato!

 

Offline The E

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Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
****, that problem was reported a few weeks ago and I remember fixing it (IIRC the issue is that the mission instructs the Mjolnirs to fire immediately when a ship appears where the original mission had a small delay to allow ships to move into the Mjolnir's field of fire), but it seems I forgot to actually push that fix live. I'll try it again when I'm back home tomorrow.
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Let there be moon
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Let there be monsters and let there be pain
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Offline Kiloku

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Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
If it helps:

Knossos says Blue Planet was Last Updated 2019-11-26. 
The version number is at 1.0.6.
The Blue Planet "card" on the Knossos Home doesn't have the little "Update Avail!" tag on it.
Potato!

 

Offline The E

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Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Yeah, I kept running into issues with Knossos failing to upload things, which should be fixed in the current version.
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Offline The E

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Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
So since uploads through Knossos are still failing for me (only at the Nebula end now), here's the fixed version of King's Gambit.. Download it, and place it in <Knossos Directory>/FS2/blueplanetcomplete-1.0.6/bpc-fs2blue/data/missions.

Let there be light
Let there be moon
Let there be stars and let there be you
Let there be monsters and let there be pain
Let us begin to feel again
--Devin Townsend, Genesis