Author Topic: Star Trek Discovery -- This is the good ****  (Read 18017 times)

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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Star Trek Discovery -- This is the good ****
I'm fine with that aspect as well, weird **** technologies have been presented in previous Trek episodes as well (IIRC there was a trek episode where a similar kind of teleporting tech was found...). It's just that the whole concept is entirely dumb from the get go and seems to be inspired more by the likes of Chopra than the likes of Hawking. The whole writing on that tech is just pure nonsensical woo drivel.

Lorca is a deeply flawed character. Out is the entire StarFleet's motto and ethical standards, in is Machiavelli and his ethos. Apparently, Context Is King and the rule of law no longer applies. Apparently, captains in Starfleet are given free reign to do whatever they need to win the war. Apparently, miss Michael hasn't learnt her lesson yet, and still believes that the ends justify the means.

And apparently, Trek cannot even be elevated to the likes of Alien. I mean, I couldn't laugh my ass off more when I saw Pinky gnawing its teeth at the crew. And what the **** is that thing, even? I mean, yeah I kinda assumed the "science team ****s it up and delivers a monster" trope, but that thing was never explained at all, which is weird in of itself, but this is Star Trek for ****s sake. They must explain this ****, because as it stands, I'm calling ip theft on this one and argue that this thing was teleported out of Hell straight towards our universe through that NuPolenTech.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Star Trek Discovery -- This is the good ****
Actual lines of dialogue.

Paul Stamets:

"At the quantum level there's no difference between biology and physics, no difference at all.
And you talk about spores? What are they? They're the progenitors of panspermia. They're the building blocks of energy across the universe.
Physics and biology? No. Physics AS biology"


Spores are apparently energy quanta in our universe.

 

Offline Flaser

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Re: Star Trek Discovery -- This is the good ****
I actually find the whole notion of "spore line" not that bad, it reminds me of Asimov's "Currents of Space", especially since it was just shown that a ship can use said spores to power itself. Is this a little "wacky"? Oh yes, but it's actually remarkably better thought out than a lot of technobabble Trek has used in the past.
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Offline Buckshee Rounds

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Re: Star Trek Discovery -- This is the good ****
That would fit with Burnham's immediate character arc, a ship in need of experienced crew and an officer with a troubled past being sent somewhere ELSE than the front lines.

Which seemed to form a good chunk of the premise of Episode 3, nice prediction!

I liked this one better. The Alice in Wonderland scene was silly. Blowing up a brand new starship that by all rights could've been salvaged was silly. Not sure how I feel about the teleporter, if it leads to a Black Mesa style scenario that could be interesting I guess, perhaps that's what the monster was all about? The dialogue is still trash.

Despite its' flaws I much preferred this episode to the first 2, probably because Burnham came off as quite a bit more capable and less of an unprofessional malcontent, although that's probably down to the fact that her mutineering has humbled her somewhat and she doesn't really have any real responsibilities yet.

Saru is XO. ****ing YES. He should've been XO from the start.

That shot of Discovery tractor beaming Burnham's prison shuttle almost made the ship look good. Almost. The design is still rather unfortunate. It looks much better up close where its' ugliness isn't so obvious.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Star Trek Discovery -- This is the good ****
The design is sick as hell, I have the utmost respect for the designers that stuck to it, even knowing they would be hated by the mainstream.

 

Offline The E

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Re: Star Trek Discovery -- This is the good ****
Saru is XO. ****ing YES. He should've been XO from the start.

In David Mack's tie-in novel (which covers a period of time before the start of Discovery), it is made explicit that Georgiou promoted Burnham to XO over Saru (who has seniority in grade and has the necessary command training) simply because she thought Burnham was more ready for the position.
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Star Trek Discovery -- This is the good ****
I'm just going to say that this should have been a new IP. I see absolutely no reason so far why this had to be a Star Trek show. And I suspect it's going to end up hamstinging them unless they decide to completely ignore TOS.
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Offline The E

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Re: Star Trek Discovery -- This is the good ****
Why? I keep seeing this talking point pop up, but so far, nothing about Discovery (except superficial stuff like "the ship uses touchscreens" or "shuttles shouldn't have warp drives" or "these klingons don't look like tanned humans") makes the show incompatible with TOS.
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Star Trek Discovery -- This is the good ****
So you think in 10 years the universe of the show you've just seen could have changed into the one we see in TOS? Hell, this show is set 2 years after The Cage. We're supposed to accept that the attitudes of the Pike era Enterprise have mutated into the Discovery and back again in 12 years?

We know for a fact that Spock was already a serving senior officer at that point and I'm sure someone more versed in Trek can prove that Kirk, McCoy and pretty much every senior officer involved in TOS would have been serving at that point. Yet despite the fact that they all fought in the Klingon - Federation war they all barely if ever mention it. That it affects next to none of their decisions or actions. If space-psychology is that good, perhaps the current crew should be getting some of it.

I'm sorry but it just doesn't work for me. Setting the show so close to TOS is obviously designed for one reason alone, cameos. I'll probably watch it a bit longer but to be honest, I've already decided that in terms of head-canon this isn't happening in the prime universe. It just goes way beyond belief.
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Offline The E

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Re: Star Trek Discovery -- This is the good ****
We know for a fact that Spock was already a serving senior officer at that point and I'm sure someone more versed in Trek can prove that Kirk, McCoy and pretty much every senior officer involved in TOS would have been serving at that point. Yet despite the fact that they all fought in the Klingon - Federation war they all barely if ever mention it. That it affects next to none of their decisions or actions. If space-psychology is that good, perhaps the current crew should be getting some of it.

By the time of TOS, the Klingon/Federation war has simmered down to being pretty cold. No major offensives were happening, and the klingons and Federation had established a neutral zone that was supposed to be inviolate. Enterprise was on an explicit exploration mission; while they had klingon encounters, most of them didn't really change the status quo (except, obviously, for the organian peace treaty).

I would posit that ten years is enough time for the acute traumas to heal (and even then: Witness Kirk in Undiscovered Country and his resolve to never make peace with the klingons) or the officers most affected to be rotated out of frontline assignments.

Oh, and just incidentally: During the timeframe of Discovery, Kirk and McCoy are still in the Academy. We don't know what Spock was doing, but he was part of the Enterprise crew by then. We do not know what actions the Enterprise took part in, or how long it took from the hot war of Discovery to go into a stalemate, but it is entirely plausible to me that the war wouldn't come up as a random topic of conversation during TOS.

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I'm sorry but it just doesn't work for me. Setting the show so close to TOS is obviously designed for one reason alone, cameos. I'll probably watch it a bit longer but to be honest, I've already decided that in terms of head-canon this isn't happening in the prime universe. It just goes way beyond belief.

Fair enough.
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Star Trek Discovery -- This is the good ****
Oh, and just incidentally: During the timeframe of Discovery, Kirk and McCoy are still in the Academy.

Nope. Starfleet academy doesn't seem to work like that.

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Kirk was commissioned as an officer in the United Federation of Planets Starfleet with the serial number SC937-0176CEC. In the mid-2250s, some years after beginning his friendship with Lt. Finney, he was promoted to ensign. He served aboard the Republic with his friend Lt. Ben Finney. When Finney made a mistake nearly catastrophic to the ship, Kirk logged the incident, which resulted in his friend being reprimanded and put to the bottom of the promotion list. (TOS: "Court Martial")

In 2255, Kirk was promoted to lieutenant. As a young lieutenant, he visited Neural on his first planetary survey mission. Kirk met and befriended one of the planet's natives, the Hill man Tyree. Kirk's report described a primitive but promising culture, and Starfleet endorsed him recommending a policy of non-interference. (TOS: "The Corbomite Maneuver", "A Private Little War")

In 2257, upon graduating from Starfleet Academy, Kirk began his service under Captain Garrovick. Kirk's first deep-space assignment was as a lieutenant aboard Garrovick's USS Farragut. As a phaser gun crew member, he was assigned to a phaser station.

That year, the Farragut engaged the dikironium cloud creature at the planet Tycho IV. The creature killed Captain Garrovick and two hundred of the ship's crew. Farragut's record tapes of the event included Lieutenant Kirk insisting upon blaming himself for the disaster, citing his delay in firing the ship's phaser banks at the creature as he lost consciousness. The Farragut's executive officer disagreed, stating, "Lieutenant Kirk is a fine young officer who performed with uncommon bravery." (TOS: "Obsession")


So Kirk would have already been serving on starships at the time the war started. He'll definitely be a serving officer by the time Season 2 rolls round. So we're supposed to believe that at the same time the federation was peaceful enough for all the stuff Kirk did but at the same time was at war with the Klingons. Scotty supposedly started in 2241 so he definitely would be involved in a war that occurred some 15 years later. McCoy was also older than Kirk so it would be hard to believe he wasn't involved in patching people up at the front.

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I would posit that ten years is enough time for the acute traumas to heal

Ten years from the start of Discovery is not necessarily ten years from the end of the war. This is what I mean about TOS hamstringing them. They're going to have to wrap up this whole Klingon War stuff pretty quickly as it will become less and less believable the longer things go on. It's bad enough that there was a short war ten years ago that no one mentioned but if the war is the backdrop to the show and is still going on by season 5 that would be like having a show based on the Korean War where no one ever mentions WWII.
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Offline The E

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Re: Star Trek Discovery -- This is the good ****
This all assumes things we don't know. We don't know how long the hot war is going to last. We don't know what timeframe Discovery is meant to cover.

Also, we know that there was a hot conflict with the klingons in this timeframe because Picard mentioned it once.

I think what I can't get my head around is this concept of "if it wasn't mentioned in TOS, it can't exist in Discovery", when TOS (and, to some extent, all of Star Trek) was made by people with a much looser concept of the requirements of sticking to a defined canon. Claiming that DSC is breaking rules that Star Trek was never good at keeping in the first place is weird, to me.
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Star Trek Discovery -- This is the good ****
It's not just events that are the problem. The entire tone of the federation has to switch in 10 year span for this to be believable.
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Offline The E

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Re: Star Trek Discovery -- This is the good ****
Because the tone on-board Discovery is typical for Starfleet? When Discovery is explicitly atypical?
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Offline Novachen

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Re: Star Trek Discovery -- This is the good ****
Watched it during the last couple of days.

I did not like it very much. By far the worst starting episodes of a Trek series i can remember. Only TOS and TAS were even worse... but that was 50 years ago.

Actually, this one did not feel neither a ENT sequel or TOS prequel for me. Even it does not work as an TOS prequel anyway because it seems to play in the Kelvin timeline, based on the references given, that was never Star Trek at all for me.

After the pilot episode it was the first time i have a feeling from a ST pilot like "If this would not be called Star Trek, it could be simply 'another starship series'".

Maybe i have again to wait for season 3, like in all other modern Trek series before this one gets really good. But at least the beginning of them where much better to keep you up during a horribly bad second season.
If we are lucky... this first season is already the second season from the others series  :D
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Offline Buckshee Rounds

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Re: Star Trek Discovery -- This is the good ****
I think what I can't get my head around is this concept of "if it wasn't mentioned in TOS, it can't exist in Discovery", when TOS (and, to some extent, all of Star Trek) was made by people with a much looser concept of the requirements of sticking to a defined canon. Claiming that DSC is breaking rules that Star Trek was never good at keeping in the first place is weird, to me.

Which is a fair enough point. TNG and by extension DS9/VOY were a lot more respectful of continuity however, particularly in regards to the tech. TOS ships were slower, they had no replicators, no holodecks, the transporters would doppelganger people....which I guess they never fixed? :)

This is the problem of doing a prequel. The ships have to be less capable. The ideals and the way things are have to be proportionally less developed, because you wouldn't expect 19th century Europe to have greater civil rights than 20th century Europe now would you? Yet in Discovery the ships seem more capable, the officers seem to instinctively know what to do with stuff that the poor old Enterprise crew had to ponder over.

TOS established a lot of plot and setting tropes that audiences are now too familiar with, so DSC by necessity has to gloss over things like Burnham using a thruster pack which would've taken a good 10-mins of explanatory dialogue in TOS before the scene actually happened.

Rogue One is a fine example of a prequel done right imho and arguably Star Wars has less of an incentive to maintain continuity because it has a wider appeal and can get away with playing fast and loose with canon.

Putting the tech aside, in terms of ideals the Federation is much more mature by TNG era than it was in TOS, if Kirk and Co. are anything to go by. The Prime Directive is adhered to more often, though probably less than even half of the time, but still more than Kirk did by any reasonable measure. There's far more diplomacy going on, I mean hell the Federation are allied to the Klingons by TNG. That's a story I'd much rather explore.

The Federation in TOS is well-meaning, but not pacifistic. The Enterprise Incident coming to mind, where Kirk is ordered to steal a cloaking device from the Romulans. In DSC they seem downright militaristic. Starfleet feels and operates more like a traditional Navy than Nasa with guns, which is basically what TOS Starfleet was.

DSC actually reminds me of the Movie era, where everyone wore the same red military uniforms and the stories revolved more around action. Even then we got the Shakespeare and Moby-Dick quotes (He tasks me!). That works for the films. In DSC everyone wears the same blue military uniforms, there's constant action, there's escalation instead of diplomacy or science solutions....

Idk, I really don't want to dislike Discovery. I do think Trek has to evolve and DSC is trying very hard to just that, which is itself commendable. But the Trek tropes just don't seem to be there - the exploration, the sciencing, the interesting and sometimes brilliant dialogue, the cringey humour, the technobabble (which DSC has actually kept to a minimum which is...good I guess?), the occasionally hamfisted moral lessons....

I agreed with Kara in that it doesn't feel like Trek to me, it feels more like generic sci-fi, which is an opinion that seems to be widely shared among Virgins Trekkies.

EDIT: Didn't spot your post there:-

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Because the tone on-board Discovery is typical for Starfleet? When Discovery is explicitly atypical?

Yes, but they're not even a combat unit yet they seem to operate more like a warship.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2017, 09:34:05 am by Buckshee Rounds »

 

Offline The E

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Re: Star Trek Discovery -- This is the good ****
Which is a fair enough point. TNG and by extension DS9/VOY were a lot more respectful of continuity however, particularly in regards to the tech. TOS ships were slower, they had no replicators, no holodecks, the transporters would doppelganger people....which I guess they never fixed? :)

This is the problem of doing a prequel. The ships have to be less capable. The ideals and the way things are have to be proportionally less developed, because you wouldn't expect 19th century Europe to have greater civil rights than 20th century Europe now would you? Yet in Discovery the ships seem more capable, the officers seem to instinctively know what to do with stuff that the poor old Enterprise crew had to ponder over.

Let's talk about production artefacts a bit. TOS didn't have hologram projectors or touchscreens or heads-up displays on the main viewscreen because most of that was technology that was too costly to display properly. The ships have to be less capable, sure, but we don't know exactly what the capabilities of the TOS Enterprise are; TOS canon was never defined in a way that would lend itself to that sort of discussion.
The ships and crews seem more capable, but how much of that is because the ships can be shown in much more dynamic scenes these days? How much of it is due to the writers choosing not to make something into a problem for the characters to deal with?
These things, IMHO, are due to TOS being very obviously a product of its time and its inherent limitations. I can't accept the notion that a TOS prequel series must look less advanced than TOS when our own observable reality is, in many ways, more advanced than TOS was.

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TOS established a lot of plot and setting tropes that audiences are now too familiar with, so DSC by necessity has to gloss over things like Burnham using a thruster pack which would've taken a good 10-mins of explanatory dialogue in TOS before the scene actually happened.

Rogue One is a fine example of a prequel done right imho and arguably Star Wars has less of an incentive to maintain continuity because it has a wider appeal and can get away with playing fast and loose with canon.

Putting the tech aside, in terms of ideals the Federation is much more mature by TNG era than it was in TOS, if Kirk and Co. are anything to go by. The Prime Directive is adhered to more often, though probably less than even half of the time, but still more than Kirk did by any reasonable measure. There's far more diplomacy going on, I mean hell the Federation are allied to the Klingons by TNG. That's a story I'd much rather explore.

I would agree that a story set within the timeframe in which the klingon/fed alliance happened would be cool to see (TNG's Yesterday's Enterprise says hello), but at the same time, that show would be met with much the same criticisms, wouldn't it, if its makers chose to update elements of the look.

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The Federation in TOS is well-meaning, but not pacifistic. The Enterprise Incident coming to mind, where Kirk is ordered to steal a cloaking device from the Romulans. In DSC they seem downright militaristic. Starfleet feels and operates more like a traditional Navy than Nasa with guns, which is basically what TOS Starfleet was.

I gotta ask this, why are you assuming that Lorca in particular and Discovery and Glenn in general are indicative of what the rest of Starfleet is like? We know that Shenzhou was different, much closer to what we think a Starfleet ship should be like, and from those two examples you are saying that all of Starfleet must be like Discovery? This doesn't compute for me.

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DSC actually reminds me of the Movie era, where everyone wore the same red military uniforms and the stories revolved more around action. Even then we got the Shakespeare and Moby-Dick quotes (He tasks me!). That works for the films. In DSC everyone wears the same blue military uniforms, there's constant action, there's escalation instead of diplomacy or science solutions....

Hmm, yes, constant action where in the pilot two fleets are staring at each other intently until Burnham screws up. Where Georgiou is trying to use tried-and-true Starfleet methods of non-aggression. Where in the third episode we get taken on an excursion to Alien-land, where Lorca is explicitly characterized as more warmonger-ish than any other Starfleet captain we've seen.

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Idk, I really don't want to dislike Discovery. I do think Trek has to evolve and DSC is trying very hard to just that, which is itself commendable. But the Trek tropes just don't seem to be there - the exploration, the sciencing, the interesting and sometimes brilliant dialogue, the cringey humour, the technobabble (which DSC has actually kept to a minimum which is...good I guess?), the occasionally hamfisted moral lessons....

I agreed with Kara in that it doesn't feel like Trek to me, it feels more like generic sci-fi, which is an opinion that seems to be widely shared among Virgins Trekkies.

I don't know. I've talked to people who really liked the show and see it as a good Trek story.

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Because the tone on-board Discovery is typical for Starfleet? When Discovery is explicitly atypical?

Yes, but they're not even a combat unit yet they seem to operate more like a warship.

Lorca is operating Discovery like a warship, yes.
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Star Trek Discovery -- This is the good ****
The Shenzhou also doesn't seem like a TOS era ship to me either, so stop claiming that it's cause of the Discovery.
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Offline Mikes

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Re: Star Trek Discovery -- This is the good ****
My take: The superduper teleportation shrooms will shortly take the whole ship to a) another part of the galaxy or b) another dimension entirely where the actual show will then commence to start. b) is more likely than a) imho simply because a) has been done in Voyager already.

I.e. Discovery will most likely go deep down the rabbit hole. The Alice in Wonderland quotes do nothing less but directly telegraph this plot "twist" as well.
With one ship destroyed in episode 3 and the other ship potentially disappearing from the known universe never to be seen again this would also explain Starfleet never further pursued the "shroomdrive" as viable technology.


Aside from that I am getting a kind of "Ship of the damned" / "Mutiny on the Bounty" vibe from the show since episode 3, which might not be the worst direction they could have taken it.



All in all I am quite a bit more interested in the show now after episode 3 than I was after 1+2. /shrugs. Gonna see how it develops.

 
Re: Star Trek Discovery -- This is the good ****
My take: The superduper teleportation shrooms will shortly take the whole ship to a) another part of the galaxy or b) another dimension entirely where the actual show will then commence to start.

You forgot option C:  The protagonist is already on shrooms, and the show really starts when the bad trip concludes.