Author Topic: Most despised canon mission  (Read 2216 times)

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Re: Most despised canon mission
- A Game of TAG : Another mission that feels much worse on higher difficulties. I think it could have remained quite fun if they didn't slave ALL of the corvette's guns to TAGs. Overall, I think :v-old:'s implementation of TAG missiles is rather underwhelming.

Proper implementation of TAG weapons can be quite overwhelming though, and probably requires New features that aren't even present in FSO yet.

Not at all, it's pretty trivial. FS Blue has TAG support available on a lot of missions and it doesn't require every turret on a ship to be slaved to the TAG.

Last time I looked at FS Blue there was some SEXP that required the name of every single turret using AAA beams and every hostile fighter. When I saw it I felt happy that I simply specified both weapons to a single turret instead (that was when you could only have 1 beam per turret simultaneously, and result was that beams got swapped immediately and automatically without any SEXP). However that got broken quite some time ago. :(

Still other stupidities remain. For example interceptors will chase a tagged fighter with normal weapons even when the other ship is kilometers away.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Most despised canon mission
Right, so, not overwhelming and doesn't require new features not yet present in FSO.

 

Offline Droid803

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Re: Most despised canon mission
I hate A Game of TAG.
Being forced to fly a Ulysses (super wide secondary points which alternate left/right, which wouldn't normally be a problem, except:), relying on slow-moving slow-reloading dumbfire missiles out of said fire points to accomplish anything, and the corvette being completely useless if you don't. You want to fly up real close to make sure the TAG lands on the target you want...and when it does you get killed bey friendly ULTRA-AAA beam fire. Wonderful. All to introduce a mechanic that is literally never used ever again (at least FS Blue fixed that).

But yeah it's fixable, they just chose not to...but left the mission in anyway. What purpose does it serve (other than the kappa wing thing?) nothing really, they could have just thrown that into any other nebula mission. At least stealth fighter technology comes into play in Monster in the Mist.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Most despised canon mission
Also increased the TAG velocity and made its firewait less than INFINITY so missing a shot isn't as punishing.

 
Re: Most despised canon mission
TAG weapons can be overwhelming powerful though. In theory every light interceptor could instakill a heavy bomber with a single missile at considerable distance.

 
Re: Most despised canon mission
I'd say that TAGs aren't weapons, not directly. They're tools, and very powerful ones. I just wish that :v-old: had actually used them in gameplay more often than just having the player experiment with them in a mission or two.

I personally have been annoyed not by certain missions (that too but the worst offenders have been pointed out already), but by the equipement. For me, the lack of a dedicated interceptor - something along the lines of FS1 Valkyrie - was definitely an annoying thing. I know that the Perseus is, uhm, a bit fast but I'd really sometimes prefer to have something that has got more zoom. And Horus doesn't count.
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Re: Most despised canon mission
Just that using TAG weapons in retail the way it was supposed to be in "A game of TAG" was probably impossible.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Most despised canon mission
They are pretty strong, but they do come with disadvantages (at least the way I implemented them). When a ship's firing on your TAG target it's not using its antifighter beams in its own defense.

I do think in the long run bomber tactics would need to change, and that in the even longer run fighters and bombers would take on a role closer to their modern antiship duties — attacking from outside a warship's defensive perimeter with standoff weapons. Beams are just too good at nullifying a fighter's defensive advantages (agility and shields). As they improve, it would become suicidal to get within their range.

 

Offline 0rph3u5

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Re: Most despised canon mission
I do think in the long run bomber tactics would need to change, and that in the even longer run fighters and bombers would take on a role closer to their modern antiship duties — attacking from outside a warship's defensive perimeter with standoff weapons. Beams are just too good at nullifying a fighter's defensive advantages (agility and shields). As they improve, it would become suicidal to get within their range.

*mumbles something about failures of imagination*
"When you work with water, you have to know and respect it. When you labour to subdue it, you have to understand that one day it may rise up and turn all your labours into nothing. For what is water, which seeks to make all things level, which has no taste or colour of its own, but a liquid form of Nothing?" - Graham Swift, Waterland

"As you sought to steal a kingdom for yourself, so must you do again, a thousand times over. For a theft, a true theft, must be practiced to be earned." - The terms of Nyrissa's curse, Pathfinder: Kingmaker

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Re: Most despised canon mission
They are pretty strong, but they do come with disadvantages (at least the way I implemented them). When a ship's firing on your TAG target it's not using its antifighter beams in its own defense.

I do think in the long run bomber tactics would need to change, and that in the even longer run fighters and bombers would take on a role closer to their modern antiship duties — attacking from outside a warship's defensive perimeter with standoff weapons. Beams are just too good at nullifying a fighter's defensive advantages (agility and shields). As they improve, it would become suicidal to get within their range.

I thought it'd change particular fighters, as interceptors and light fighters probably wouldn't engage hostile ships themselves anymore so they could be even lighter, deliver the TAG weapons and besides that only shoot down bombs (for context, the weapon I envisioned had a range of 4 km, as it doesn't need a heavy warhead anymore, just something to get through the shield intact).

However, overall normal point defense and flak still remain against untagged stuff and bombs so having the AAA fire on certain ships shouldn't be a weak point.

I don't know how much bombers would change (unless they trigger SSM strikes like in BP) as they would be most likely directed against Shivans post-Capella.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Most despised canon mission
However, overall normal point defense and flak still remain against untagged stuff and bombs so having the AAA fire on certain ships shouldn't be a weak point.

It is. They're powerful anti-bomb weapons and when they're not doing that more bombs get through.

 
Re: Most despised canon mission
Ultra AAA is pretty good at killing bombers before they can launch any nukes though.

 

Offline darkdaej

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Re: Most despised canon mission
*mumbles something about failures of imagination*

That, or a really short development cycle.  I'm guessing the crunch time was pretty intense given FS2 came out only a year after FS1.

FS2 suffers from a lot of great ideas with poor execution.  We all love the game to death, but methinks it could have used more polish regardless :P

pretty sure the mission designers didn't coordinate their efforts as much as they should have too
« Last Edit: August 24, 2019, 02:18:35 pm by darkdaej »

 
Re: Most despised canon mission
FS2 was released ahead of the schedule IIRC.

Could you provide some samples of poor execution?

 

Offline 0rph3u5

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Re: Most despised canon mission
*mumbles something about failures of imagination*

That, or a really short development cycle.  I'm guessing the crunch time was pretty intense given FS2 came out only a year after FS1.

FS2 suffers from a lot of great ideas with poor execution.  We all love the game to death, but methinks it could have used more polish regardless :P

pretty sure the mission designers didn't coordinate their efforts as much as they should have too

That's exactly not what the remark was about - you know, me being a "it is not the weapon that is important but who it aimed at and why"-person.

I find Battuta's "let's make post-capella warfare all realistic warfighty"-stick both tedious and besides the point. I already elaborated on the whole "beams and flak have symbolic meaning in the narrative beyond their gameplay dimensions of shaping battle-space and elvating cruiser+ ships from being large targets", so nothing more to say really...

EDIT: That is not to say the "realistic warfighty"-approach doesn't have it uses, but execution must meet intention: e.g. in The Scroll of Atankharzim you can have that because story is all about a new generations different approach to a similar challenge than those who came before.

EDIT2: In the spirit of "put up or shut up", here is concepts for "how military tech evolved" for this campaign sketch:
Hidden Text: Yet Another Post-Capella Campaign, Weapon Concepts by Faction • Show
Alright all factions get their evolution around a theme:

1. GTVA
The big change to the GTVA since FS2 is the deployment of the Panopticon - a wide range surveillance device that acts as an early warning system, but also gives the GTVI the blind spot anxiety that starts the story proper. To match that the GTVA would have gotten pinpoint accurate weapons, such as laser snipers, single shot AAA beams and long range anticapital beams - if possible with some sort of blind spot build into the armaments to match the theme.

2. Terran Union
The Terran Union is busy "not being the NTF" and therefor would as a statement not have evolved their military tech from FS2.

3. non-Imperial Vasudans
They are on a quest for vengence so to match the theme, the non-Imperial ships would have all gotten really good at fighting up close and personal - with HP buffs and weapons that work really well up close, extra flak, shotgun-style lasers, big "point blank range or they dispate" plasma launchers and slow, long duration slash beams.

4. Solar Federation
The Solar Federation Military can be arrogant as all hell, and wouldn't touch you with a ten foot pole because you are from outside their solar system-sized gated community. They would have had a focus on range shooting, but different from the big sustained beams of the GTVA, so maybe missiles or railguns. In turn their weapons would have had a slight problem at medium range only to be better at close range because no touching allowed.

5. The Shivans
All evolutions of the Shivan tech would have been to match the Voc'quir tech, to stress that this time they are not dealing with the Terrans and Vasudans - they just happen to be there.

6. Voc'quir
I wanted the Voc'quir to be much more close combat focussed - similar to the non-Imperial Vasudans - but to add them actually boarding ships into the mix. With no ships to base this on I am/was running on empty there then.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2019, 04:05:18 pm by 0rph3u5 »
"When you work with water, you have to know and respect it. When you labour to subdue it, you have to understand that one day it may rise up and turn all your labours into nothing. For what is water, which seeks to make all things level, which has no taste or colour of its own, but a liquid form of Nothing?" - Graham Swift, Waterland

"As you sought to steal a kingdom for yourself, so must you do again, a thousand times over. For a theft, a true theft, must be practiced to be earned." - The terms of Nyrissa's curse, Pathfinder: Kingmaker

"...because they are not Dragons."

 
Re: Most despised canon mission
The one thing that bugged me about that "realistic" approach was the reliance on ECM weapons. Might be good against Terrans/Vasudans but it's a damn big maybe against Shivans which should be the main target after Capella.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Most despised canon mission
Ultra AAA is pretty good at killing bombers before they can launch any nukes though.

In FS Blue I think it's just AAAf, which is plenty powerful. And you're never going to be able to TAG everything coming your way.

I find Battuta's "let's make post-capella warfare all realistic warfighty"-stick both tedious and besides the point. I already elaborated on the whole "beams and flak have symbolic meaning in the narrative beyond their gameplay dimensions of shaping battle-space and elvating cruiser+ ships from being large targets", so nothing more to say really...

I don't know what your deal is lately, man, but I wish you would find a way to express your ideas without taking snipes. They're perfectly fine ideas, you don't need to pair them with the suggestion that I'm bad at imagining things. Especially if your showcase of 'better' imagination is Blue Planet plus apos'trophe ali'ens!

 

Offline Colonol Dekker

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Re: Most despised canon mission
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Re: Most despised canon mission
@Orpheus: Could you put your ideas into a new post instead of editing them into older ones if you want them to be read?

@Battuta: Ah OK I had a different concept in mind (with Ultra AAA), which was half-way between normal AAA and a Cap beam; perhabs in BP-terminology "overcharging"? If you know the exact location of the target it's probably more economic to destroy the target with few hits. Since (as you noted) there won't be anything TAGed simultainously you can take the (theoratical- if it was more balanced) longer recharge time without trouble.

 

Offline 0rph3u5

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Re: Most despised canon mission
@Orpheus: Could you put your ideas into a new post instead of editing them into older ones if you want them to be read?

I will if they are of signficance and not extended postscripts restating things I somehow have the impression to have to keep saying.

you don't need to pair them with the suggestion that I'm bad at imagining things.

You just happen to be the first target I find when trying to punch up. It "helps" that your default short-cut always seems to be the emulation of reality with no regard to a layer of Superstructure.

Especially if your showcase of 'better' imagination is Blue Planet plus apos'trophe ali'ens!

I suggest you read the story again - on a thematic level it has little to do with Blue Planet (as it presents itself currently).

And if you would allow, I would submit two additional things for consideration:
a) It is something that is out there and thus a better example of that me having to make references to stuff I am still making (I find that always highly unsatisfying - as much as I want people to get excited by the stuff I am making, I am also very concious that all teasing is just setting up for failure).
b) If not obvious by the title or the preface I consider the story I referenced to be bearly worth the time spend on it; not just because I suffer from some version of Imposter Syndrome, because it's derivate in many sufrace aspects, its thematic grounding is to ridiciolous degree out-of-date (the collective shrugging reaction to the Panopticon we are living in may recieve it peridodical challenge but only so far as involves it side-show); and relies to heavily on a downer ending gimick that I can deploy better elsewhere.
"When you work with water, you have to know and respect it. When you labour to subdue it, you have to understand that one day it may rise up and turn all your labours into nothing. For what is water, which seeks to make all things level, which has no taste or colour of its own, but a liquid form of Nothing?" - Graham Swift, Waterland

"As you sought to steal a kingdom for yourself, so must you do again, a thousand times over. For a theft, a true theft, must be practiced to be earned." - The terms of Nyrissa's curse, Pathfinder: Kingmaker

"...because they are not Dragons."