[TrashMan]

Re-played the campaign again today and I laughed at that line. Colli can't take out one, heavily damaged Sath.

I suspect that line was left from before when the balance was far different. What makes the Colossus pathetic is the weapons balance, where shivan beams are so insanely superior, it's not even funny. Not only a lot more damage, but FAAAR faster re-charge.

[Assassin714]

Well it seems pretty obvious that one Sathanas can't beat multiple Sathanases... (Sathani?)

Unless maybe it got really lucky.

[TrashMan]

Meant to write Collossuss. Only noticed the f**-up now. Fixed hte title

[Kie99]

I read it as the GTVA having a hard time losing its hubris after destroying the first Sathanas.

I do think there's a strategy for it, though.  You've got two single chokepoints - between the nebula and Gamma Draconis and between Gamma Draconis and Capella - and even if they get to Capella, you've got two in the jump nodes out of Capella.

You move your entire fleet in as far as is possible to the vicinity of those nodes and park them permanently outside them, produce as many Mjolnirs as is humanly and vasudanly possible.  As soon as any aperture opens up, it gets hit with enough firepower that they'll be able to see it in whatever system they came over from.

[Nohiki]

I liked the fact that in the mission, the colossus' CO keeps yelling out updates on what systems are failing and how much. It's not just that the Collie is underpowered in the raw stats, but it is for all intents and purposes a testbed for a ship that size, and clearly the GTVA doesn't have the design guidelines quite right, as the ship nearly melted its' own insides when engaging a... let's call it near-peer adversary, with the understanding that GTVA are the ones catching up.

[BengalTiger]

To be honest, I'm not really a fan of the Big C.
To me it's sinking (word game I know) a lot of money into one ship.

It looks like from a storyline perspective, the GTVA was so slow to build it that the tech developed for it became common on smaller ships (I'll bet the Hecate could do a long range beam fire mission from its BGreen on the nose), and the Colossus was just like a relic of the early post FS1 era.

If I was in charge, we'd see giant floating crossbows...


...and there would probably be several of these for the price of the Colossus.
And they'd probably also significantly outgun the Big C, given how Vasudans have better beams on their destroyers than the Terrans.

There would probably also still be a budget to make the Hecate better. I know it has the biggest hangars in the GTVA (except Colossus), but they could probably get evolved if the Big C wasn't eating resources for 20 years.


Then we have the normal Hecate being the fleet command and carrier, the Hatshepsut being the regular high power destroyer and the above two - several of which would probably exist by the time FS 2 rolls along, instead of the juggernaut.

Thus we avoid the whole Colossus is going down moment, because Command could just put another ship in when the first one needs to get pulled out of the frontline - rather than being stuck using a more and more damaged ship because there is no spare.

[NickM]

Ya know? THat sounds like a great Idea for an alternate history confrontation with the Sathanas fleet: it's a one way trip (Al la the IJN Yamato in 1945) and you're gonna get blown to heck but, lets see how many we can take with us.  Either choose the Colossus or an upgunned destroyer, jump in as they gather at the Capella sun and just 'go to town' (or if you're feeling like a cheat you can include the Erebus destroyer and/or some of Herkie's super ships ;RIP brother).

[Colonol Dekker]

High speed pegasus stealth plated meson cruise missiles.   If you can mass produce dozens of thousands over the time it took to build the colly....you can one-two punch them in the hangar ovaries.

[Kie99]

Ya know? THat sounds like a great Idea for an alternate history confrontation with the Sathanas fleet: it's a one way trip (Al la the IJN Yamato in 1945) and you're gonna get blown to heck but, lets see how many we can take with us.  Either choose the Colossus or an upgunned destroyer, jump in as they gather at the Capella sun and just 'go to town' (or if you're feeling like a cheat you can include the Erebus destroyer and/or some of Herkie's super ships ;RIP brother).

"How many we can take with us" is zero.  A redlining Colossus took 15-20 minutes to destroy a Sathanas.  It takes about 60 seconds for a Sathanas to destroy a Colossus.  Anything destroyer sized or below is history in two salvos or less.

Even a destroyer ramming into the Colossus, which has the exact same number of hit points as a Sathanas, caused minimal damage.

[ShivanSlayer]

Maybe if they packed the Colossus full of Meson Bombs, they could have taken a couple of juggernaughts.  But yeah, without Herkie's super ships, the GTVA was not ready to battle the Sathanas fleet.  I'll never forget the first time I beat Aftermath Reboot in 2020 and finally after all those years got to avenge the Colossus, the Psamtik, and all others lost during the Capella incursion

[NickM]

Yeah, Herkie's super ships were a 'gas', weren't they?

I was thinking a more 'agile' strategy, stay to the rear of an individual Sath and jump out when the big guns come to bear.

[NickM]

High speed pegasus stealth plated meson cruise missiles.   If you can mass produce dozens of thousands over the time it took to build the colly....you can one-two punch them in the hangar ovaries.

Sounds like the Space Marines making suicide boarding attacks with Nukes on the "Hakaga Fleet" during the Battle For Earth, in wing commander==assuming we got suicidal troops and enough get thru to make a dent. How big is a meson bomb anyway?  I assume only a Meson can take out a Sath in 'one go'.

[Kie99]

Yeah, Herkie's super ships were a 'gas', weren't they?

I was thinking a more 'agile' strategy, stay to the rear of an individual Sath and jump out when the big guns come to bear.

There are 80 of them, and they're all just sat there, with plenty of time to charge their jump drives.  As soon as your strike team jump in, the one they're targeting can jump out and 4 or 5 others can immediately jump in and obliterate them while they're recharging.

[Colonol Dekker]

High speed pegasus stealth plated meson cruise missiles.   If you can mass produce dozens of thousands over the time it took to build the colly....you can one-two punch them in the hangar ovaries.

Sounds like the Space Marines making suicide boarding attacks with Nukes on the "Hakaga Fleet" during the Battle For Earth, in wing commander==assuming we got suicidal troops and enough get thru to make a dent. How big is a meson bomb anyway?  I assume only a Meson can take out a Sath in 'one go'.

The confederations finest. Long may they be remembered.  Like the royal marines taking out dragons in the reign of fire intro too.

[BengalTiger]

If it's not a boarding mission to discover what's there, just send a bunch of drones with meson nukes in their backpacks.

The GTDr Amazon is referred to as "not smart", so I assume there is AI in universe that can control a machine much better.

Stealth is also very effective vs the Shivans, I guess using a normal Hecate loaded up with stealth strike craft to try to disarm or disable a Sathanas before the main strike could be a big force multiplier.


I know this is a non-canon ship (GTF Icarus), but hey, we're speculating here. It can equip the Trebuchet and the Maxim, and the Sathanas's main beams were not exactly heavily armored.
The Pegasus can load the Trebuchet and Akheton as well if we'd assume this fighter would not be ready in the numbers needed for these operations.

On a side note - I did not find a single stealth bomber in the FS wiki... 
Can anyone maybe mod the Icarus to be a bit beefier? I can supply sketches of how I see it to be...

Another strategy with the GTVA superior strike craft is standoff weapons.

This ship (GVB Setep) is described as able to carry subspace strike torpedoes, so one can imagine stealth fighters in the initial raid to hopefully disarm a Sathanas and to say hello to the enemy fighters, followed by a bunch of conventional ships to do the heavy dogfights and then the third wave would be these bombers, tossing torpedoes that would teleport to be close to the target while these bombers stay away from most trouble.
Don't know how much a subspace drive can be miniaturized and how many such torpedoes a bomber could realistically carry though. Mods do not define canon too much.

Ya know? THat sounds like a great Idea for an alternate history confrontation with the Sathanas fleet: it's a one way trip (Al la the IJN Yamato in 1945) and you're gonna get blown to heck but, lets see how many we can take with us.  Either choose the Colossus or an upgunned destroyer, jump in as they gather at the Capella sun and just 'go to town' (or if you're feeling like a cheat you can include the Erebus destroyer and/or some of Herkie's super ships ;RIP brother).

"How many we can take with us" is zero.  A redlining Colossus took 15-20 minutes to destroy a Sathanas.  It takes about 60 seconds for a Sathanas to destroy a Colossus.  Anything destroyer sized or below is history in two salvos or less.

Even a destroyer ramming into the Colossus, which has the exact same number of hit points as a Sathanas, caused minimal damage.

The aimable Mjolnir is a bit more powerful than the Colossus's 20 year old tech when supercharged. The Mjolnir set to fire along the beam emitter's axis is about 2x that.
The upgraded Hecate (GTD Icelus) could also benefit from the tech that made the Mjolnir beam and just have two of those on its nose mounts - so firing both down the axis gives more than half of a Colossus broadside, and it's not like one cannot aim a destroyer at a juggernaut.

This again shows how far behind the Big C became during its development.

Would still want the Vasudan Crossbow though. Vasudans are known to have significantly stronger beam cannons than Terrans... and with a beam cannon that big I'd think it would match or exceed the dual Mjolnir Icelus.

Then it's just a systemic planned battle till the Shivans figure it out (and they seemed to be not very adaptive planners).

P.S. Found this in like 2 seconds of searching:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcWhhsRGsAI

[Mr_Maniac]

If we're dealing with a single Sathanas, how about jumping in from the side to avoid it's main beams? Okay... The attacking ships would have to be fast enough to keep up with it's rotation speed...

But yeah, taking front beams out is the best strategy.

And like mentioned in this thread before: Commands hubris just is hillarious. I've re-played FS2 campaign recently (haven't played it for quite some time) and I really had to wonder about the mantal state of command...

Hey, there's a new portal to an unknown nebula with many shivans in it and with very limited sensor range. Let's not just guard the entrance, but poke at the hornets nest as much as possible... We had 30 years and are now SOOO much better than shivans...

Oh noes... Ravana! We lost many big ships... Alpha, take bombers and save us! Oh, we're saved... That shows our technical superiority!

Let's resume poking the hornets nest...

Oh noes... Sathanas... Lost capships in seconds... Closing portal failed... Alpha help us! Take bombers and disable main waponry! Woohoo... Colossus took out sathanas after oh-so-many minutes while melting all it's electronics in the process (according to comms in mission). We are soooo superior. So let's continue poking at hornets nest!

And, oh... There's another portal! Let's see if we can go through... Oh noes... MANY Sathanasesesesesesesesesesessssss....

And the colossus' brain has melted in the attack too... Trying to "hold off ONE Sathanas as long as they can"... I don't think those ten seconds mattered that much...

[Kie99]

If it's not a boarding mission to discover what's there, just send a bunch of drones with meson nukes in their backpacks.

The GTDr Amazon is referred to as "not smart", so I assume there is AI in universe that can control a machine much better.

Stealth is also very effective vs the Shivans, I guess using a normal Hecate loaded up with stealth strike craft to try to disarm or disable a Sathanas before the main strike could be a big force multiplier.


I know this is a non-canon ship (GTF Icarus), but hey, we're speculating here. It can equip the Trebuchet and the Maxim, and the Sathanas's main beams were not exactly heavily armored.
The Pegasus can load the Trebuchet and Akheton as well if we'd assume this fighter would not be ready in the numbers needed for these operations.

On a side note - I did not find a single stealth bomber in the FS wiki... 
Can anyone maybe mod the Icarus to be a bit beefier? I can supply sketches of how I see it to be...

Another strategy with the GTVA superior strike craft is standoff weapons.

This ship (GVB Setep) is described as able to carry subspace strike torpedoes, so one can imagine stealth fighters in the initial raid to hopefully disarm a Sathanas and to say hello to the enemy fighters, followed by a bunch of conventional ships to do the heavy dogfights and then the third wave would be these bombers, tossing torpedoes that would teleport to be close to the target while these bombers stay away from most trouble.
Don't know how much a subspace drive can be miniaturized and how many such torpedoes a bomber could realistically carry though. Mods do not define canon too much.

Ya know? THat sounds like a great Idea for an alternate history confrontation with the Sathanas fleet: it's a one way trip (Al la the IJN Yamato in 1945) and you're gonna get blown to heck but, lets see how many we can take with us.  Either choose the Colossus or an upgunned destroyer, jump in as they gather at the Capella sun and just 'go to town' (or if you're feeling like a cheat you can include the Erebus destroyer and/or some of Herkie's super ships ;RIP brother).

"How many we can take with us" is zero.  A redlining Colossus took 15-20 minutes to destroy a Sathanas.  It takes about 60 seconds for a Sathanas to destroy a Colossus.  Anything destroyer sized or below is history in two salvos or less.

Even a destroyer ramming into the Colossus, which has the exact same number of hit points as a Sathanas, caused minimal damage.

The aimable Mjolnir is a bit more powerful than the Colossus's 20 year old tech when supercharged. The Mjolnir set to fire along the beam emitter's axis is about 2x that.
The upgraded Hecate (GTD Icelus) could also benefit from the tech that made the Mjolnir beam and just have two of those on its nose mounts - so firing both down the axis gives more than half of a Colossus broadside, and it's not like one cannot aim a destroyer at a juggernaut.

This again shows how far behind the Big C became during its development.

Would still want the Vasudan Crossbow though. Vasudans are known to have significantly stronger beam cannons than Terrans... and with a beam cannon that big I'd think it would match or exceed the dual Mjolnir Icelus.

Then it's just a systemic planned battle till the Shivans figure it out (and they seemed to be not very adaptive planners).

P.S. Found this in like 2 seconds of searching:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcWhhsRGsAI

You can strap an engine on a Meson Bomb, but then you've just invented a very large slow missile.

Stealth bombers, I'm not sure they're even feasible.  Bombers have a lot of mass and FreeSpace engagements are in visual range.

Trebuchets barely scratch the Sathanas' frontal beams.

I don't think you can necessarily just plug in a Mjolnir#Home on the front of your destroyer.  Presumably all those arms on the Mjolnir perform some important function and it's the size of a small cruiser.  Even if you could, even if you got 5 of them pointed at a single Sathanas, the Mjolnirbeam does 1,257 damage per second, so 6,285 for 5 of them.  The Sathanas has 1,000,000 hit points.  So you're looking at 160 seconds to take it out.  Its 4 front beams do 32,340 damage per second, your toughest destoyer, the Hatshepsut, has 135,000 hitpoints.

But you're not worried about that, you go to the rear, right?  The LRed on the rear of the Sathanas puts out 2,100 damage per second, it will have destroyed your toughest destroyer inside of a minute.

By the way, they also have jump drives, so if you're winning they can either leave, or use one of the other 80 Juggernauts they've got in the system to show up and obliterate you in 5 seconds.  And they can deploy lots of fighters themselves.

Any efforts to go after them is a suicide mission with no upside.

If we're dealing with a single Sathanas, how about jumping in from the side to avoid it's main beams? Okay... The attacking ships would have to be fast enough to keep up with it's rotation speed...

But yeah, taking front beams out is the best strategy.

And like mentioned in this thread before: Commands hubris just is hillarious. I've re-played FS2 campaign recently (haven't played it for quite some time) and I really had to wonder about the mantal state of command...

Hey, there's a new portal to an unknown nebula with many shivans in it and with very limited sensor range. Let's not just guard the entrance, but poke at the hornets nest as much as possible... We had 30 years and are now SOOO much better than shivans...

Oh noes... Ravana! We lost many big ships... Alpha, take bombers and save us! Oh, we're saved... That shows our technical superiority!

Let's resume poking the hornets nest...

Oh noes... Sathanas... Lost capships in seconds... Closing portal failed... Alpha help us! Take bombers and disable main waponry! Woohoo... Colossus took out sathanas after oh-so-many minutes while melting all it's electronics in the process (according to comms in mission). We are soooo superior. So let's continue poking at hornets nest!

And, oh... There's another portal! Let's see if we can go through... Oh noes... MANY Sathanasesesesesesesesesesessssss....

And the colossus' brain has melted in the attack too... Trying to "hold off ONE Sathanas as long as they can"... I don't think those ten seconds mattered that much...

It's not communicated very well, but I think the issue with the Colossus was where it goes if it jumps out, given that the Sathanas might follow it.

If it goes to the Epilson Pegasi node and the Sathanas follows it then the Bastion could get caught in the crossfire and the whole plan to seal the Shivans off is doomed. 

The Vega node is where all the refugees are fleeing to/through.

[BengalTiger]

If we're dealing with a single Sathanas, how about jumping in from the side to avoid it's main beams? Okay... The attacking ships would have to be fast enough to keep up with it's rotation speed...

But yeah, taking front beams out is the best strategy.

Trebuchets barely scratch the Sathanas' frontal beams.

I was pretty sure it took a few Artemis bombers only a few minutes to take out the BFReds...

Need to replay all the FS games again soon (at least FS1, Silent Threat and FS2 - with the current graphics of course). It's been years.

I don't think you can necessarily just plug in a Mjolnir#Home on the front of your destroyer.  Presumably all those arms on the Mjolnir perform some important function and it's the size of a small cruiser.  Even if you could, even if you got 5 of them pointed at a single Sathanas, the Mjolnirbeam does 1,257 damage per second, so 6,285 for 5 of them.  The Sathanas has 1,000,000 hit points.  So you're looking at 160 seconds to take it out.  Its 4 front beams do 32,340 damage per second, your toughest destoyer, the Hatshepsut, has 135,000 hitpoints.

But you're not worried about that, you go to the rear, right?  The LRed on the rear of the Sathanas puts out 2,100 damage per second, it will have destroyed your toughest destroyer inside of a minute.

By the way, they also have jump drives, so if you're winning they can either leave, or use one of the other 80 Juggernauts they've got in the system to show up and obliterate you in 5 seconds.  And they can deploy lots of fighters themselves.

Any efforts to go after them is a suicide mission with no upside.

Oh I know that a frontal engagement is not possible at all.

Now disarming the tail beam (again stealth ships* needed for greatest chance of success) and putting a Hatshepsut over there and we are looking at a 6 minute bombardment with 3 BVas.
Since there is the Supercap flag in the way, I'd think the Hat would need to go all power to weapons to be able to do the final 75% damage to the Sath, so if a hypothetical BFVas is proportionately stronger than a normal BVas, the Sathanas explodes in maybe 5 minutes.

This is about the time that Sobek needed to blow up that Ravana if I remember correctly, so the GTVA can gain local superiority for such an amount of time.

It's not communicated very well, but I think the issue with the Colossus was where it goes if it jumps out, given that the Sathanas might follow it.

If it goes to the Epilson Pegasi node and the Sathanas follows it then the Bastion could get caught in the crossfire and the whole plan to seal the Shivans off is doomed. 

The Vega node is where all the refugees are fleeing to/through.

What was the jump drive charging time?
I know it was a plot element sometimes to get ships before they can run or to keep ships alive long enough, but I don't think there was ever any real values assigned...

Oh and I also like to think that Admiral Bosch hacked the Shivans' brains and made them get Capella to go supernova thus saving the GTVA. Some Shivans regained control of themselves and were able to wait through the shockwave while in subspace, but most remained hypnotized till it was too late.
How's that for a conspiracy theory and plot twist? The main villain is also the savior.


*- I'll come back in the near future with a sketch of the GTB Daedalus, the heavier version of the GTF Icarus.

[Kie99]

If we're dealing with a single Sathanas, how about jumping in from the side to avoid it's main beams? Okay... The attacking ships would have to be fast enough to keep up with it's rotation speed...

But yeah, taking front beams out is the best strategy.

Trebuchets barely scratch the Sathanas' frontal beams.

I was pretty sure it took a few Artemis bombers only a few minutes to take out the BFReds...

Need to replay all the FS games again soon (at least FS1, Silent Threat and FS2 - with the current graphics of course). It's been years.

I don't think you can necessarily just plug in a Mjolnir#Home on the front of your destroyer.  Presumably all those arms on the Mjolnir perform some important function and it's the size of a small cruiser.  Even if you could, even if you got 5 of them pointed at a single Sathanas, the Mjolnirbeam does 1,257 damage per second, so 6,285 for 5 of them.  The Sathanas has 1,000,000 hit points.  So you're looking at 160 seconds to take it out.  Its 4 front beams do 32,340 damage per second, your toughest destoyer, the Hatshepsut, has 135,000 hitpoints.

But you're not worried about that, you go to the rear, right?  The LRed on the rear of the Sathanas puts out 2,100 damage per second, it will have destroyed your toughest destroyer inside of a minute.

By the way, they also have jump drives, so if you're winning they can either leave, or use one of the other 80 Juggernauts they've got in the system to show up and obliterate you in 5 seconds.  And they can deploy lots of fighters themselves.

Any efforts to go after them is a suicide mission with no upside.

Oh I know that a frontal engagement is not possible at all.

Now disarming the tail beam (again stealth ships* needed for greatest chance of success) and putting a Hatshepsut over there and we are looking at a 6 minute bombardment with 3 BVas.
Since there is the Supercap flag in the way, I'd think the Hat would need to go all power to weapons to be able to do the final 75% damage to the Sath, so if a hypothetical BFVas is proportionately stronger than a normal BVas, the Sathanas explodes in maybe 5 minutes.

This is about the time that Sobek needed to blow up that Ravana if I remember correctly, so the GTVA can gain local superiority for such an amount of time.

It's not communicated very well, but I think the issue with the Colossus was where it goes if it jumps out, given that the Sathanas might follow it.

If it goes to the Epilson Pegasi node and the Sathanas follows it then the Bastion could get caught in the crossfire and the whole plan to seal the Shivans off is doomed. 

The Vega node is where all the refugees are fleeing to/through.

What was the jump drive charging time?
I know it was a plot element sometimes to get ships before they can run or to keep ships alive long enough, but I don't think there was ever any real values assigned...

Oh and I also like to think that Admiral Bosch hacked the Shivans' brains and made them get Capella to go supernova thus saving the GTVA. Some Shivans regained control of themselves and were able to wait through the shockwave while in subspace, but most remained hypnotized till it was too late.
How's that for a conspiracy theory and plot twist? The main villain is also the savior.


*- I'll come back in the near future with a sketch of the GTB Daedalus, the heavier version of the GTF Icarus.

They were Bakhas carrying Helios bombs, two of which are sufficient to take out light cruisers.

They do need time to recharge their jump drives, but that's after they've jumped in.  The juggernauts at the star are just sat there, they know they're in hostile territory, they'd need to be pretty negligent not to be ready to go.

[BengalTiger]

They were Bakhas carrying Helios bombs, two of which are sufficient to take out light cruisers.

They do need time to recharge their jump drives, but that's after they've jumped in.  The juggernauts at the star are just sat there, they know they're in hostile territory, they'd need to be pretty negligent not to be ready to go.

Ahh thanks for the info.
I really need to replay these games soon (now I'm still busy with this one other mod for this one other game - Open General).

192.7 (+192.7) - subsystem damage per second of the Helios.
387.5 (+387.5) - Stiletto II
140 (+140) - Trebuchet

Per size unit the Stiletto and Trebuchet are comparable, while the Helios is about 2x more effective.

Thus my stealth bomber argument still stands, only now with light, anti-subsystem bombs.   

But yeah, I totally get the point there's 80-ish Sathanasesi's floating around Capella, probably two for each GTVA corvette and larger that is present in the warzone.

The GTVA has relatively a lot of Meson bombs (I guess about 25-30 are used in the game, most inside a gutted GDT Orion though) - maybe bait the Shivans to bring a Sathanas to help out another that is being blasted by a Hatshepsut, then retreat the Hatshepsut and instead switch it for a couple freighters with MB's?
The explosions would be legendary. 

I kind of think the MB's should be developed into a gigantic torpedo, and the GTFr Triton should be developed into like an East Indiaman, with a lot of defensive guns. In game it has 2 turrets, but the Poseidon has 4 Subach HL-7's, and the Vasudan Satis had 5 turrets.
I would think it would be reasonable for the Triton to be able to support maybe 6 or 7 turrets, possibly including an AAA beam.

Then you have a protected delivery vehicle, a bomb that will go on its own when in range, and everybody jumps away (hopefully except Shivans).