Author Topic: BP: War in Heaven discussion  (Read 918162 times)

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Spoiler:
Given that they are cosmic entities talking, I imagine it was simply another side to their conversation we didn't comprehend the first time. Bei seemed to be there on behalf of the Elders and the Vishnans to convince her to join them.

The issue is, who, if any, is more trust worthy? A seemingly benevolent group of precursors who nonetheless are conspiring to shape human society into something they can use, or a xenocidal cosmic horror whose mouthpiece is a war criminal with, "good intention".

There doesn't seem to be a good third option at this point. The Vishnans have already written off humanity, and the Shivans are chomping at the bit to finish the job.

Plus, both the Elders and the GTVA have their "ace in a hole" projects left to deploy.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Jesus Christ. I am doing something terribly wrong. Can't seem to find a way to beat the damn Asteroid mission.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Jesus Christ. I am doing something terribly wrong. Can't seem to find a way to beat the damn Asteroid mission.

Given the stakes, collateral damage is acceptable.
Spoiler:
Use your shield boost, flares, and MHD thrusters to get past the Morena and her fighters. Dive into the asteroid via the entry point. Destroy the reactor. Escape and evade.

 

Offline Shivan Hunter

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Jesus Christ. I am doing something terribly wrong. Can't seem to find a way to beat the damn Asteroid mission.

Given the stakes, collateral damage is acceptable.
Spoiler:
Use your shield boost, flares, and MHD thrusters to get past the Morena and her fighters. Dive into the asteroid via the entry point. Destroy the reactor. Escape and evade.

Spoiler:
I actually tried that and it turned out to be more difficult than destroying the Morena and calling in the transport.

Fantastic Campaign! Loved every moment of it. Questions in the spoilers below. (There will be more at a later date)
Spoiler:
In the last mission Bei shows you the events that took place at the end of AoA in Delta Serpentis. However, you hear the Vishnans and Shivans having a different discussion then the one you heard in AoA. Is Bei and Laporte hearing two separate things? How did Bei find Laporte In the crazy acid trip dreamland. Did the Vishnans help him find and connect to her?

Spoiler:
I assume that because of the nature of the Shivans and Vishnans, they communicated enough information in that conversation to fill entire human libraries, and we're getting a summary that's dumbed-down for us. It is important to note that we're hearing what they want us to hear. And since Laporte and Bei were seeing two different things (Bei did not see the ships from Universal Truth or the Vishnan ships), it's likely that Laporte heard a different facet to their conversation as well- a facet the Shivans wanted her to hear.

[edit] one more question why do you guys have such epic taste in music :D
« Last Edit: January 09, 2013, 01:21:18 am by Shivan Hunter »

 
Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Playing through now. Dear Lord, this is amazing. You guys went for the creative angle and you nailed it.

I do agree there's a bit of an information overload at times: you give many options, and that's good, but it's certainly more infodumping than most players are used to for a briefing.

Haven't played through the whole thing just yet... it's getting late here, and if I don't stop playing now, I'll never get to sleep tonight. So far, my verdict is excellent work! :yes:
"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?" -DEATH, Discworld

"You can fight like a krogan, run like a leopard, but you'll never be better than Commander Shepard!"

 

Offline Gloriano

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
I just finished Act 3 and to be honest it felt like a acid trip to galaxy and back in a good way really enjoyed the diffrent mechanics  :yes:

I just hope we don't have to wait too long for the Act 4-5 since this was also such a big tease.
You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star.- Nietzsche

When in despair I remember that all through history the way of truth and love has always won; there have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time they can seem invincible, but in the end they always fall.- Mahatma Gandhi

 

Offline Shivan Hunter

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
For anyone who wants an alternative method to download the gargantuan BP-Complete.exe, some of us on the #bp channel put together a torrent file: https://www.box.com/s/6ojtm99zubx8rbemvcz1

I'm almost certain that it may work in some circumstances, but my upload speed is absolute crap, so if some of you who already have BP-Complete could add it and start seeding, that would be greaaaat...

 

Offline crizza

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Jesus Christ. I am doing something terribly wrong. Can't seem to find a way to beat the damn Asteroid mission.

Given the stakes, collateral damage is acceptable.
Spoiler:
Use your shield boost, flares, and MHD thrusters to get past the Morena and her fighters. Dive into the asteroid via the entry point. Destroy the reactor. Escape and evade.

Spoiler:
Say what? I tried it three times, the first time everything went wrong from the start, the first barrage hit me, then I decided to duke it out with the Morena, using flares, didn't work, the asteroid warped out...BAM.
Second try: Way better, switched to antifighter missiles, and killed the torpedo launchers, disabled the reactor casings, the engine, and then went for the killing blow, downside: Called in the transport too late.
Third try: Same as above, but I just killed the launchers, the engine, then the reactor shields.
Called the transport, used the afterburner boost, killed the remaining sentry guns and yeahha, saved the day and the GEF :)
And thats my damn problem, I want to be the good guy, not an ice cold killer...-.-

 

Offline Black Wolf

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Jesus Christ. I am doing something terribly wrong. Can't seem to find a way to beat the damn Asteroid mission.

Given the stakes, collateral damage is acceptable.
Spoiler:
Use your shield boost, flares, and MHD thrusters to get past the Morena and her fighters. Dive into the asteroid via the entry point. Destroy the reactor. Escape and evade.

Spoiler:
Say what? I tried it three times, the first time everything went wrong from the start, the first barrage hit me, then I decided to duke it out with the Morena, using flares, didn't work, the asteroid warped out...BAM.
Second try: Way better, switched to antifighter missiles, and killed the torpedo launchers, disabled the reactor casings, the engine, and then went for the killing blow, downside: Called in the transport too late.
Third try: Same as above, but I just killed the launchers, the engine, then the reactor shields.
Called the transport, used the afterburner boost, killed the remaining sentry guns and yeahha, saved the day and the GEF :)
And thats my damn problem, I want to be the good guy, not an ice cold killer...-.-

Spoiler:
Forget the transport. Kill the Morena's reactor casing, then the reactor. Then kill the GEF command habitat. Then fly inside and kill the reactor. Finally, kill the last remaining Uly. Liberal use of the capship countermeasures, afterburner boost and at least one hit of the hull fixer got me through, though time was a little short towards the end.
TWISTED INFINITIES · SECTORGAME· FRONTLINES
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Burn the heretic who killed F2S! Burn him, burn him!!- GalEmp

 
Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Final mission spoilers:
Spoiler:
So, what's with the Transcend, Sync and Vassago references? The Transcendent seems to appear during the mission and, if you turn and look instead of running away, you get a debriefing that relates to the Transcend campaign.
Are these easter eggs, or is there some sort of big, huge intertwining plot going on?

I want to go back to that final mission and see what else I missed - but it's quite long!

 

Offline Rodo

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
You can save them all, if I could you can!
Spoiler:
My transport docked with the habitat 30 seconds to carnage, the counter went 0 as a I watched in agony expecting for news from the infiltrating forces, a good 30 seconds after the countdown reached 0 I got the good news, the world was saved and all GeF scum as well.
So go miss Laporte, GO!

Edit: ups.. sorry.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2013, 09:04:37 am by Rodo »
el hombre vicio...

 

Offline Eratharon

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Well, I finished it. It is a spectacular piece in the middle of War in Heaven.

Spoiler:
I don't really want to write about spoilery things but better safe than sorry.
I liked the "downtime" between missions and the new weapons, they were very powerful (shotgun point blank = space dust). Although I didn't really use the other addons like the repair system at all. The capital mission was the most enjoyable mission for me especially because I didn't fly a BIG capital ship but a smaller one. The missions were of moderate difficulty and very enjoyable. At first it was information overload but after filtering what I needed the most I could read the dialogues too. As expected there are tons of dialogue but with Blue Planet that's a given.

I also have to praise you because of the game's performance with BP models because when WiH came out it was choppy like hell but now it's much much better although there are a few slowdowns here and there. Particularly with the in-system gates. In the Dreamscape when I turned there the game always slowed down. Not choppy slow but like 0.50 speed slow.

Last I would like to ask:
1. Is there any chance I could get info on which choises are canon or will they have lasting consequences on Act 4-5?
Personally I blew up the gefs - Captured the asteroid base and killed every ship - Spared the Chartage
2. To get the full ending what do I have to do in the last mission? I probed all the shivan nodes until 3 were Complete and 1 was Interrupted. In the GTVA convoy section there are nodes some of which have portal inside them some of them don't and some turn red. It's not really easy dodging thos dastardly Vishnan fighters and seeing to the nodes.
3. Will you release Act 4-5 together or alone?
4. Does Laporte die if I choose not to bail out of the Dreamscape?

So that is all for the moment but if something comes to mind I'll write again.
Good Job on Act 3, keep up the good work and Thank You all very much for the fantastic experience so far.
-Woohoo new campaign! No time to play? ****!!

-Why in the bloody hell is command only giving Colossus ONE wing of bombers against the Sathanas?!

 

Online Colonol Dekker

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
You can save them all, if I could you can!
Spoiler:
My transport docked with the habitat 30 seconds to carnage, the counter went 0 as a I watched in agony expecting for news from the infiltrating forces, a good 30 seconds after the countdown reached 0 I got the good news, the world was saved and all GeF scum as well.
So go miss Laporte, GO!


Fixed :mad:
Campaigns I've added my distinctiveness to-
- Blue Planet: Battle Captains
-Battle of Neptune
-Between the Ashes 2
-Blue planet: Age of Aquarius
-FOTG?
-Inferno R1
-Ribos: The aftermath / -Retreat from Deneb
-Sol: A History
-TBP EACW teaser
-Earth Brakiri war
-TBP Fortune Hunters (I think?)
-TBP Relic
-Trancsend (Possibly?)
-Uncharted Territory
-Vassagos Dirge
-War Machine
(Others lost to the mists of time and no discernible audit trail)

Your friendly Orestes tactical controller.

Secret bomb God.
That one time I got permabanned and got to read who was being bitxhy about me :p....
GO GO DEKKER RANGERSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Offline Ravenholme

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Definitely avoids "Underwhelming Middle Act Syndrome". Act 3 is many things. Underwhelming isn't one of them.
Full Auto - I've got a bullet here with your name on it, and I'm going to keep firing until I find out which one it is.

<The_E>   Several sex-based solutions come to mind
<The_E>   Errr
<The_E>   *sexp

 

Offline SF-Junky

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
!!! Possible spoilers in this post !!!

I forego spoiler tags, however, as I don't like them. If you want to play it safe, skip this post!

But in contrast prior campaigns, I am simply feeling overwhelming with the sheer amount of STUFF I am being told to do. I felt, well, justifiably pissed off when the mission briefer snarked, "Oh, do you need to take notes?" I'm sorry, but I don't feel that is good game design. I am sure many vets will oogle over the sheer amount of stuff you can DO in each mission, but the main point has to come back to, "is it fun?"

The FREDDING is amazing, the graphics are amazing, the story is amazing. But from where I am right now, the campaign just isn't FUN. It feels like a chore.
Yes, that is what I think about this act, too. Perhaps I'm gonna change my mind if I get to know these missions better in the future, but at this point I hav e to say I'm very much disappointed.

From a FREDding point of view this campaign is, again, a masterpiece. Anyone denying this is either a complete fool or has never used FRED or both. You can see huge loads of work put into this in any single mission. When playing this, you can constantly see why it took years to make this.

Unfortunately Tenebra lacks of good gameplay. Or let's rather way: Gameplay one expects from a space combat simulation. The first combat mission was okay. It is a rather classic mission with cool new features. I liked that. But all the other missions are more like pressing buttons rather than doing anything else. And that, at some points, was really, really annoying me.

Let's begin with Everything is Permitted. This mission already suffered from information overload in my opinion. Maybe it's because I'm a non-native speaker or I'm just exceedingly stupid, but in my first tryout I didn't understand at all what's going on. Well, I then tried to kill the target with a Mjolnir. Unfortunately, I never found out what button to press to get the sentry gun fire its beam. This is probably because I had to play on a 1024x768 resolution so not all of the HUD was displayed, it doesn't matter anyway. The mission failed to tell me what button press and that is, I'm deeply sorry, bad design. Again, maybe I'm just stupid and again terribly oversaw something there. Anyway, in the end I used cheats to beat this one, because at some point I was just sick sitting there trying to find out which button to press now.
And this is really, really sorry, because overall I liked this mission. Great stealth feeling!! That is how a cover assassination mission is supposed to look like.

Then the Gef mission. It is cool to fly a capital ship for a change, nice new tools there but in the end it was just about flying into that huge asteroid, kill the reactor, get out again and kill the enemy mother ship if you like. Nothing special about that. To be honest, I liked The Blade Itself at lot more. This would have been a lot more fun if you would've led a few fighter wings in there. Would have been a great opportunity to fly the Lao'tse fighter, I think. New toys and features are cool to support story telling and improve mission design. Here they replace mission design in my eyes.

Now for Her Finest Hour. Oh my god, am I disappointed. This mission is NOTHING than pressing buttons. Again a basically great idea and great design, but absolutely destroyed by total overload of information, new functions and new features. I think I tried this mission 15 times or so didn't beat it properly. In the end, I used cheats to beat it. I later tried it with Battuta's tips. It works rather well this way. But what does this tell you about the mission design if you can only beat it when the campaign maker tells you how to do it? Before I read Battuta's post I didn't even realize you can call in the Toutatis into the mission. Also, the artiellery ships stop firing at some point. Why is that? Maybe I would've beaten the mission if they wouldn't do that.
Overall I am having the impression that you need perfect timing and a huge amount of previous knowledge to beat this mission. In Acts 1 and 2 you had a lot of missions where you needed perfect timing to achieve secondary and bonus goals, for example safe those cruisers in Aristeia, but most of the missions could be done quite easily in the first try.

The last combat mission is... well, you know the drill: Cool basic idea, screwed up by pressing buttons orgy. I really don't understand why you introduced that clumsy interface here to place the turrets. Why not just let the player select a platform on which he or she wants to put a turret and press buttons 1 through 4. 1 standing for mass driver, 2 standing for missile launchers, 3 standing for flak turret, 4 standing for rapid-fire plasma turret, for example. This would have been an easy and effective way to upgrade a classic mission design for something new and cool. Instead you put HUGE amounts of work into there to have a clumsy new interface that totally distracts you from the battle and has nothing to do with space combat.

I don't know what these critics you meantion earlier, Battuta, expect when they play a Freespace 2 campaign. I think Freespace 2 is a space combat simulation and in a space combat simulation I want to take my fighter into dogfight to contest other craft and warships. Not just open up building interfaces and place turrets or just select targets for capship turrets. If I want to build turrets and commandeer warships around I go play Star Trek Armada Fleet Operations or Starcraft 2 or what.

I understand and appreciate your efforts to make covert ops mission feel different from what you saw in Acts 1 and 2. Basically, this worked perfectly. You have cool new ideas for cool new features, but you use way to much of this at the cost a game fun and streamlined  mission design. That leads to another weak point in this act: Most of the story is not put forward in actual missions, but only in that dreamscape (which again was a cool idea which you spent a lot of time on) and the last mission, which was too long for my taste, by the way. You probably might want to split this into two, but I'm getting distracted.

Let me point that out in greater depth by using an example from Act 2. In Aristeia you first experience an epic and cool mission which shows advanced FREDding and uses new features (beam inhibitor, credits to force play to choose which reinforcements to call in, new music) to improve story telling and gameplay. The player is facing a cool gameplay experience here and at the end the main story is driven forward in a in-game dialogue.
In Act 3 you have that Gef mission, for example, in which there is not very much happening, except that you destroy one or two greater targets and, perhaps, two fighter wings. And before and after that mission you are in the dreamscape where there is also nothing happening except flying around and talk to other ships for seven to ten minutes. It is really good that you can skip this, which I did once. Because this is really boring after the second time, even though you might get interesting information; then again it is not important information, because then you shouldn't be able to skip it just like that. Anyway, if I want to just sit there and read text I go reading a book.

I hope I could make my point clear in this grantetly long review. I really appreciate and deeply respect the efforts you put into this. As a FREDder I'm just jealous of what you accomplished. As a player, however, I remain quite disappointed at this point, though I'm still looking forward to see more BP in the future. I hope that Acts 4 and 5 come out soon with new features used more deliberately. :)


  

Offline General Battuta

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Quote
I later tried it with Battuta's tips. It works rather well this way. But what does this tell you about the mission design if you can only beat it when the campaign maker tells you how to do it?

Nothing at all, these missions were playtested pretty extensively. We verified that people could accomplish them with only the information they had in-game. (I didn't even tell you anything you can't read directly off the screen, right above the center of the HUD).

I totally accept your criticism and think it's valid. But bear in mind that people value different things in what they play. We made the decision to move to a very systems-heavy approach to this act because we thought it was important to push the limits. We understand we're going to lose some people with missions like Her Finest Hour, simply because it steps away from what they value and enjoy (not to mention being a performance monster). But at the same time, we also gain something - Her Finest Hour is probably one of the most diverse, replayable missions in community history, and that's why people have so much fun with it. Everybody comes up with a different strategy.

Design decisions always come at a price. There's no reason you should feel bad about not enjoying this act - it wasn't for you, it wasn't what you want. But the same things that brought it down for you are the strengths other people really appreciate.

(I still die constantly on m19 though)

 

Offline SF-Junky

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
But bear in mind that people value different things in what they play. We made the decision to move to a very systems-heavy approach to this act because we thought it was important to push the limits. We understand we're going to lose some people with missions like Her Finest Hour, simply because it steps away from what they value and enjoy (not to mention being a performance monster). But at the same time, we also gain something - Her Finest Hour is probably one of the most diverse, replayable missions in community history, and that's why people have so much fun with it. Everybody comes up with a different strategy.

Design decisions always come at a price. There's no reason you should feel bad about not enjoying this act - it wasn't for you, it wasn't what you want. But the same things that brought it down for you are the strengths other people really appreciate.
I always kept that in mind, don't worry. :) I am aware of the fact that this act just makes up five missions out of 30 or probably more in the finished campaign. I can live with that. Acts 1 and 2 don't become less enjoyable to me because of this, after all.

What I forgot to say: It might have been a better idea if you would've made Her Finest Hour the mission where you fly the gunboat. This would've fit the tactical commander role a lot more, in my humble opinion. One could also make cool sniper actions with the mass driver. Perhaps a possible design idea for the future. There are a lot Tev destroyers to kill. ;)

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
if I want to just sit there and read text I go reading a book.
And this is why we can't have nice things :(
People are stupid, therefore anything popular is at best suspicious.

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666maslo666: Releasing a finished product is not a good thing! It is a modern fad.

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Offline General Battuta

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
No, it's a totally valid criticism of a game. Games are about agency and interaction - passive text reception isn't gonna be fun for everyone.

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
We'll have to agree to disagree on that point. I strongly believe that storytelling is the primary component of a game. Otherwise you only have an empty shell.
People are stupid, therefore anything popular is at best suspicious.

Mod management tools     -     Wiki stuff!     -     Help us help you

666maslo666: Releasing a finished product is not a good thing! It is a modern fad.

SpardaSon21: it seems like you exist in a permanent state of half-joking misanthropy

Axem: when you put it like that, i sound like an insane person

bigchunk1: it's not retarded it's american!
bigchunk1: ...

batwota: steele's maneuvering for the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: you mispelled grâce
Awaesaar: grace
batwota: oh right :P
Darius: ah!
Darius: yes, i like that
MatthTheGeek: the way you just spelled it it means fat
Awaesaar: +accent I forgot how to keyboard
MatthTheGeek: or grease
Darius: the killing fat!
Axem: jabba does the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: XD
Axem: bring me solo and a cookie