[Shivan Hunter]

AoA played in a parallel universe. We don't know wether the fights over there have any influence on the GTVA/UEF universe.

IIRC it's implied several times that the Vishnans (and therefore Shivans, since they're a similar... entity) are extradimensional.

[Bei] was informed that the Vishnans were psychic beings of pure thought that could move between universes

I know it says the info is unreliable because it came from the Vishnans, but then we have...

Our tentative simulations suggest that the Vishnan 'Great Psyche' is a subspace stack entity, a sophisticated construct that exploits energy gradients in subspace to perform computation and cognition. Because subspace surrounds and connects universes, this entity exists outside time and space, and is capable of observing the entire space-time bulk. This grants it complete knowledge of all events past and future, although this knowledge may be hampered by quantum uncertainty. The origin of this entity is unknown, but we believe it may be artificial in nature.

And...

[from The Jester's probably Nagari-fueled visions] The Shivans were a vastly more alien, powerful, and extant force than anyone had at first believed.

indicating that the Shivans are possibly the same kind of entity as the Vishnans are described to be.

I know this info isn't concrete and may even be completely inaccurate, reflecting what little the Terrans know as of yet. But as we have nothing else to go on, I'm going to use the info in species.tbl as it's presented as a reliable source.

[General Battuta]

I should point out, re: species.tbl entries, that the REDACTED information from AoA has been...un-redacted.

[Shivan Hunter]

I'm not entirely convinced "Ken" is a Vishnan. Advocating the destruction of an entire branch of humanity doesn't seem to be a very 'Preserver' thing to do. Not to mention that Shivan com node in the dream sequence... The Shivans could be fighting fire with fire... perhaps a result of Bosch and ETAK?

I'm actually entirely convinced Ken is a Shivan. Noemi's bloodlust later on in the campaign seems to make that quite clear.

And of course, the Shivans are monitoring the situation and perhaps are already on the move. While they cannot be defeated by traditional military means, I hope any "Deus Ex" resolution doesn't revolve around the human race all holding hands and making nice with the bug-eyed genocidal monsters. The Shivans have already abandoned their place in the galactic order of things according to AoA, and are pursuing their own agenda. For them to 'follow the rules' once humanity stops its great civil war would be an anticlimax. I have faith in the story telling of the BP team, I just hope it doesn't completely marginalize the GTVA's perspective that the Shivans are simply too dangerous to leave humanity's fate to their "good graces", since they don't exist.

I really doubt the BP team would pull something as cheap as that.

[NGTM-1R]

The "Shivans are the good guys" is about as dramatically interesting as a rock in the face.

I agree, but for different reasons.

Namely we shouldn't be solving the Shivan mystery because that retroactively destroys anything interesting in the canonical games.

[manwiththemachinegun]

AoA played in a parallel universe. We don't know wether the fights over there have any influence on the GTVA/UEF universe.
And from a certain point of view the Shivans always were the good guys. They wipe out those that would kill the weaker species, so they can flourish.

Do you consider the people who almost wiped out the wolves in Europe in the past evil? They were doing what they thought was necessary to safe their families after all, no matter that their judgement was based on wrong information. For the Shivans we are the wolves and the species to come are their children - untill they in turn become the wolves.

Good and evil, morality, justice.... it all depends on point of view. What for one person is a sin, is a virtue for another (like killing unbeliefers for example... or killing wolves). A very cynical person could even say that such concepts as good, evil and moral are just a way to force your own ideals onto others. Make everyone the same and chocke off individualism.

That there is no definate good and evil in Blue Planet is one of the things tha apeal to me so much. Instead of saying "we are good. shivans are evil" or "UEF good, GTVA evil" all sides have valid reasons for what they do. It provokes thinking about and discussion the situations and points of view of each side.

They're murdering monsters.

What did the Shivans do? Massmurder, indisciminate killings and genocide. And all that towards some purpose, not for fun.
Humankind? Massmurder, genocide, indiscriminate killings, torture, rape, use of weapons with horrific aftereffects (nuclear bombs, chemical weapons, napalm,....). And all that for petty matters or even for pleasure.
If there are murdering monsters lose in this universe, I fear they are us. And looking back at our history makes one wonder if the Shivans arn't justified in wiping us out to make room for a better species.
On the other hand, there always were, and hopefully always will be, those of us who don't go that path, which might make us worth saving.

Shivan weapon fallout is far more horrific than anything humanity has created. Shivans kill stars and planets. There was no sign from the Great War that Humanity sought the genocide of the Vasudans, quite the opposite. There were Vasudan agents working for the GTA. Humanity was also not a malevolent force like the Ancients, conquering thousands of star systems over thousands of years. And since when do "sufficently advanced races" have the right to exterminate other sentient life because they don't 'live up' to their moral expectations? Nobody argues for the extinction of Hyenas because they devour their own infants. It's a ridiculous argument anyway you slice it. If the Shivans are the galaxy's antibodies, then they currently have an auto-immune disease. They are focused on our annihilation even though the 'infection' had barely begun to manifest.

[General Battuta]

The "Shivans are the good guys" is about as dramatically interesting as a rock in the face.

I agree, but for different reasons.

Namely we shouldn't be solving the Shivan mystery because that retroactively destroys anything interesting in the canonical games.

I don't believe a solution has been presented (or promised).

[NGTM-1R]

Ah, but does that mean you support the conception of Shivans as good guys?

Because that also rather ruins FS1 and FS2.

[General Battuta]

Ah, but does that mean you support the conception of Shivans as good guys?

Because that also rather ruins FS1 and FS2.

Does that mean that you prefer pistachio ice cream to Rocky Road?

Because that seems to follow just about as well from anything you've said. 

Good guys, bad guys...we don't really do those.

[manwiththemachinegun]

Right, I mean, if the Shivans are totally justified in wiping out us poor monkeys, then what's the point of Freespace or Freespace 2? Why resist the destroyers when it's better that TEVs lay down and die?

Of course, that means you trust a totally alien xenophobic genocidal sense of 'morality' that may or may not be completely insane after having been kicked off the galaxy's coolest triumvirate.  

Life's worth fighting for, warts and all.

Just because a solution to the Shivan problem hasn't been found, doesn't mean it won't be. It just means conventional military methods won't win *alone*. Just look at the Borg or Shadows or Zentradi or other all powerful sci-fi race. There's more than one way to skin a cat, but that doesn't mean military force isn't a nessecity to survive long enough to find it. That's what Freespace 1 and 2 were about, the quest to stay alive.

[manwiththemachinegun]

Ah, but does that mean you support the conception of Shivans as good guys?

Because that also rather ruins FS1 and FS2.

Does that mean that you prefer pistachio ice cream to Rocky Road?

Because that seems to follow just about as well from anything you've said.  

Good guys, bad guys...we don't really do those.

Come come, of course you do. A story without good antagonists isn't much of a story. And BP has that in spades. You can define Shivans as evil, or not. Regardless, since most people are of the opinion that maybe the human race doesn't deserve to be utterly obliterated, they are a titanic force that must be fought nonetheless.

[General Battuta]

Ah, but does that mean you support the conception of Shivans as good guys?

Because that also rather ruins FS1 and FS2.

Does that mean that you prefer pistachio ice cream to Rocky Road?

Because that seems to follow just about as well from anything you've said.  

Good guys, bad guys...we don't really do those.

Come come, of course you do. A story without good antagonists isn't much of a story. And BP has that in spades. You can define Shivans as evil, or not. Regardless, since most people are of the opinion that maybe the human race doesn't deserve to be utterly obliterated, they are a titanic force that must be fought nonetheless.

A good story (usually) requires good antagonists - either of the man vs. man, man vs. nature or man vs. himself variety. (You'll note that in two of those instances the antagonists don't even have to be separate characters from the protagonists.)

But none of those require 'bad guys'. And as you yourself are saying, the question of antagonism is very different from the question of 'good' or 'bad'.

Steele is, from the reactions we've had, an excellent antagonist, but he is not a bad evil guy who does things for no reason.

[manwiththemachinegun]

With enemies such as other humans and Vasudans, absolutely. Steele is a magnificent bastard, but that's what you'd expect of a legendary military commander. And a great deal of the background prose points out each side has legitimate reasons for fighting.

That "good and bad is a point of view" sort of relativism I find falls flat when mecha glowy red Ctulthu spider monsters come around every few million years and cull every race that doesn't pass their little 'test'.  

[General Battuta]

With enemies such as other humans and Vasudans, absolutely. Steele is a magnificent bastard, but that's what you'd expect of a legendary military commander. And a great deal of the background prose points out each side has legitimate reasons for fighting.

That "good and bad is a point of view" sort of relativism I find falls flat when mecha glowy red Ctulthu spider monsters come around every few million years and cull every race that doesn't pass their little 'test'.  

If you want to know how we're going to explain the actions of the Shivans - or whether we're going to explain them at all - I'm afraid we can't talk about that right now. But I will say that whitewashing anybody as the good guys is clearly not on our agenda, as anyone who'd played War in Heaven should be able to tell by now.

And I'll note that in terms of the broad classes of storytelling conflict, war with the Shivans has really been treated more as 'man vs. environment' than anything else so far.

[manwiththemachinegun]

Well, I wasn't really expecting direct answers, that's what the rest of your projects are for!

But that's good to hear the Shivans are being treated more like a force of nature or a plague than some sort of morality omniscient cosmic janitor that sweeps away the naughty races every so often.

In fact, I think that plague analogy is a good way to put it.

Are virus and bacteria a part of the natural order of things?

Yes.

Do they routinely kill humans?

Yes.


Does that mean people will let them do as they please?

No, that's why people create antibiotics, vacinations, etc. You might not be able to get rid of them, it would probably be a disaster to life as we know it to try, but that doesn't stop humans from trying to save themselves. Its in our nature to survive, no matter the odds.

[General Battuta]

It's a very difficult topic to talk about without spoiling, so all I can say is 'trust us'.

[Scotty]

Antagonist != bad.
Protagonist != good.
Light != good.
Dark != bad.

Any conclusion we draw here != BP canon.

We can speculate, but when a BP team member comes in to tell us we might not be on the right track, I'd take that as a hint.

[Flak]

While stereotypical stories have a distinct 'good' and 'bad' sides, many good ones don't need to. In fact, WiH already stepped on "Grey and Grey morality"would mean that neither side is entirely 'good' or 'bad'.

The original FS canon has so far given us no clue about the Shivans' goals or purpose. So far as the terrans are concerned, they are a force of destruction and there are no explanation whether they are 'good' or 'bad', at least until we know what happen to Bosch and what he is doing.

[redsniper]

Shivans are trying to save the universe!

[Snail]

Shivans are trying to save the universe!

So are the Gefs.

[manwiththemachinegun]

And see, that's something I can totally get behind. I like the Shivans as forces of nature, that's why they're so scary to begin with!

Since I believe this has sort of come full circle... what exactly is the GEFs agenda? They want to blow the crap out of Unbutu because they exploit natural resources or somesuch? If that's the case, why work with the GTVA, who wants very much to turn Sol into a giant munitions arsenal.