Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: vyper on June 09, 2006, 06:52:55 pm
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5065982.stm
Seven people, including three children, died on Friday when Israeli shells hit a beach in the Gaza Strip, Palestinian officials say.
There was no immediate comment from Hamas's political wing, which runs the Palestinian Authority.
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An Israeli army spokesman said Chief of Staff Dan Halutz had ordered an immediate stop to all artillery shelling of Gaza while an investigation was carried out into the beach shelling.
Erm, wtf?
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Just another happy day in Palestein
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Pretty much. Israel has been shelling them constantly.
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Wait, I thought Israel was claiming to be the "good guy" in this whole s***ty conflict.
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Damn palestinians, always triyng to blow up our sand castles.
Sorry.......
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I'm not saying either side is entirely right or wrong, I'm just saying that the whole thing is fubar
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she sells sea shells by the sea shore?
:p
seriously, this reeks of bad intel, a miscalculation, as it were.
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Wait, I thought Israel was claiming to be the "good guy" in this whole s***ty conflict.
One is a bit more aggressive... I would be 100% totally surprised if this beach shelling was on purpose. It smells of a total accident.
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they wouldn't have been shelling the beach if palestinians hadn't been launching rocket attacks from that area, now would they ?
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And the palestinians wouldn't be launching rocket attacks if the Israelis hadn't invaded their country and kicked them off their land. IF you want to play the who's to blame game you can trace it back thousands of years and still end up with the fact that they're both to blame.
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The Rocket attacks were in response to the shelling iirc?
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Yep. It's a whole big vicious cycle.
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but i've come to the conclusion that the israelis are worse.
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There is no worse. At least the Israelis are organized about it.
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Well, if the end of the world rests on peace between Israel and Pakistan. We're going to be around forever.
They're like the arch-enemies that are actually friends with one another, but just fight because they feel obligated.
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Well, if the end of the world rests on peace between Israel and Pakistan. We're going to be around forever.
They're like the arch-enemies that are actually friends with one another, but just fight because they feel obligated.
Yeah, and both have nukes.
(:wtf:)
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lol, israel and pakistan
a common mistake.
one reason i dont like israel is because its the christians who are backing them, and i don't like the christians
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Haven't we been down this road before?
Doesn't matter cause I think I gave up on the existance of God.
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There is no worse. At least the Israelis are organized about it.
If you ask me that is worse.
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I find I'm more biased towards Israel, I think that's because they're way more sane than the Palestinians. I mean let's face it, Ahmadinejad is a ****ing psychopath.
They both irrationally hate each other though. They need to build a huge wall.
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I find I'm more biased towards Israel, I think that's because they're way more sane than the Palestinians. I mean let's face it, Ahmadinejad is a ****ing psychopath.
They both irrationally hate each other though. They need to build a huge wall.
Ahmadinejad is the Iranian president.
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Mmhmm.
Still think Israel is more to blame for the troubles there, m'self.
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Frankly, I think its 6 of one, half dozen of the other. The Jews feel they have a right to be there, the Palestinians believe they don't. Considering the whole area was Byzantine for a time, as well as being part of several other Empires throughout History, how do we judge who is 'right' and who is 'wrong', why not just give the whole area back to Persia if we are going to go into Historical context?
The fact of the matter is that until people stop complaining about the way things 'should be' and start dealing with the way things 'are', this is never going to get sorted.
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Translation:
This is never going to get sorted.
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thats why my plan for peace involves palestinians and israelis being forced to live in alternating houses and work in the same places.
as soon as each side realizes that the other side is comprised of human beings like themselves, the conflict will stop
honestly, the concept of sharing is entirely lost on all of them
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One quick question...
With this current referendum in Palestine about recognising Israel as a country, does this mean that any 'State sponsored' acts of violence would be an open declaration of War against a recognised foreign power? Which is a fair bit from Random acts of Terrorism from a militant group?
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I know how to get peace, blow the Muslim building off the the temple mount. It would get peace between them two factions, but start another war however.
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Not a War, it's start a bloodbath.
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One quick question...
With this current referendum in Palestine about recognising Israel as a country, does this mean that any 'State sponsored' acts of violence would be an open declaration of War against a recognised foreign power? Which is a fair bit from Random acts of Terrorism from a militant group?
thats just propaganda that the Israel and its puppet, the US government, spew out to keep americans from considering the problem on their own and coming up with their own opinions. funny how the US claims to act in the name of freedom, while we're losing freedom at home, and supporting it's suppression in other parts of the world. i'm really getting sick of it.
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Israel and it's puppet, the US?
:wtf:
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http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/0323-09.htm
http://www.motherjones.com/commentary/columns/2006/05/the_israel_lobby.html
http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0321/dailyUpdate.html
the sites might be a little sketchy (i know, christian science...), but the study is real, got a printed copy of it in my house
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thats why my plan for peace involves palestinians and israelis being forced to live in alternating houses and work in the same places.
as soon as each side realizes that the other side is comprised of human beings like themselves, the conflict will stop
honestly, the concept of sharing is entirely lost on all of them
Not much better in the US, when you think of it. Your plan... they tried in the south with blacks and whites. And they still dont get along. Sure... on the outside they do, but I wonder how many express how they really feel when they think they are with people who think like them.
I sit and stay quiet, and I hear a lot.
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I know how to get peace, blow the Muslim building off the the temple mount. It would get peace between them two factions, but start another war however.
Sorry, but that's the stupidest thing I've heard yet. Why do the jews have the rights to land that was and is occupied by Muslims? (Hell, thats the entire problem in this whole region)
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I say we need a third party to go in there and kick them both out, lay some underground nuclear charges, and collapse the area into the Mediterranean. 'Tis the same way you would handle two children fighting over the same toy; if they can't learn to share, take the toy away and niether of them can have it.
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That's the best idea for a solution I've heard in a long time.
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Then it would just turn into a naval battle. :D
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Then it would just turn into a naval battle. :D
See, now that would just be plain cool. We've not seen a good, large Naval battle since the 40's, we need another one, dammit!
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And the palestinians wouldn't be launching rocket attacks if the Israelis hadn't invaded their country and kicked them off their land.
Country?
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What do you want me to call Palestine after 1947? :confused:
Why not just give the whole area back to Persia if we are going to go into Historical context?
If you're going to be fair about it the Spanish end up in control of that area. Direct decendents of the Phoenicans see, and even the Bible gives them prior claim.
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I dont kniow what the hell those "things" are actualui fighting for over there. Its a barren land with no real strategical or economical value. Hell just go buy some country in Africa or some relly big island and you could fit the entire jewish population there.
Note: I used the word "things" because you can not call human people who actualy loke to blow eachothers children families etc into the air for well for the heck of it basicly. They have no realistic reason to keep foghting like this.
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Then it would just turn into a naval battle. :D
See, now that would just be plain cool. We've not seen a good, large Naval battle since the 40's, we need another one, dammit!
You'd end up with a bunch of Boghammers vs. the Israeli Navy's Sa'ar series PTMs/corvettes. And the Israelis would win easy.
Kinda like the "Missile Boats at Dawn" scenario from Harpoon, only more one-sided.
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Like he said it would be like shooting ak47's against a 400mm cannon of a ww2 battleship. Guess who would win??
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400mm :jaw:
In all seriousness, I think radioactive fallout might be good for the area, no one will fight over it if no one could survive there. I know this is all very cliche, but they could both live in the land if they would just let each other be.
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Yep but then agin they are more stubborn then 4 year old children fighting over a toy car. I have yet to understand why the hell would they be fighting for peace of land that is efectively barren. I mean it surpasses mi power of understanding.
Oh and dont look to surprised aboust the whole 400mm canon there were actualy even bigger cannons mounted on battleships. Oh and they were not bolted or welded there they were held in place by the sheer wiyght of the whole gun turret.
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I'm sorry, I was getting confused by the (stupid) American units, and by the fact that it's 3:00 AM where I am.
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oh its almost 1 in the afternoon here!
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Yep but then agin they are more stubborn then 4 year old children fighting over a toy car. I have yet to understand why the hell would they be fighting for peace of land that is efectively barren. I mean it surpasses mi power of understanding.
God / Allah told them so.
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oh yeah forgot about that. Freaking idiots thats what they are. Cant someone nukem and get it over with. Geez i mean nukem all the israili and the palestinians that way there will be none left to fight over the iradiated scorached terrain. Cuz they are stupid enough to figh even for a nuclear waste sight.
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What do you want me to call Palestine after 1947? :confused:
Why not just give the whole area back to Persia if we are going to go into Historical context?
If you're going to be fair about it the Spanish end up in control of that area. Direct decendents of the Phoenicans see, and even the Bible gives them prior claim.
True, the descendants of the Phoenicians must be given back their homeland. The Muslim and Zionist occupation and genocide must end! ;)
Actually, the truth is that 12 wealthy Phoenicians have controlled the world for thousands of years. (all of that purple dye money...) The creation and spread of Islam, the Nazi Holocaust, and the foundation of Israel are all part of a long term plan for revenge.
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Indeed, the 'Order of Indigo' is a power to be fear, the Illuminaughties must be stopped ;)
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Indeed, the 'Order of Indigo' is a power to be fear, the Illuminaughties must be stopped ;)
Lol
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hehe, glad someone spotted it ;)
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Israel and it's puppet, the US?
:wtf:
Zionist Oppression Government, dude. They're totally controlling everything.
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Zionist Government = Machine bait :D
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you may act like its a consipracy, but it's true
when it comes to foreign policy, israel has complete control over the US
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I actually misred the thread title, I thought it said "Reach shelled" Some sort od middle east/covenant conspiricy sprang to mind.
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you may act like its a consipracy, but it's true
when it comes to foreign policy, israel has complete control over the US
:lol:
muslims and their conspiracy-theories ::)
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*stabs ivan in the neck with Blade of Truth*
if america's ever going to be the good guy in the world again, we've got to get as far away from israel as possible
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*stabs ivan in the neck with Blade of Truth*
if america's ever going to be the good guy in the world again, we've got to get as far away from israel as possible
or maybe the arab/muslim governments need to stop feeding their people anti-jewish propaganda that would make the nazis proud.
The whole Palestine-issue is a lightningrod to keep the poor and oppressed populaces of the middle-east nice and (semi-)docile.
There's nothing the West can do to solve it, and morally the west cannot allow to let the Israel stand alone facing an enemy that would gladly exterminate the population of the country.
Oh btw, the Zionists control the arab governments too, they controlled the communists, the nazis, the Britisch Dental Association, the Priory of Sion, the late Caliph, Kang and Kodos.
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<playground rules> BUNDLE !! FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT !!! AVE' IT !! </playground rules>
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but i've come to the conclusion that the israelis are worse.
*waves*
one reason i dont like israel is because its the christians who are backing them, and i don't like the christians
*waves twice*
thats why my plan for peace involves palestinians and israelis being forced to live in alternating houses and work in the same places.
as soon as each side realizes that the other side is comprised of human beings like themselves, the conflict will stop
honestly, the concept of sharing is entirely lost on all of them
There's plenty of interaction - civilian interaction - between Israelis and Palestinians / Israeli Arabs every day. Heck, try this on for a spot of irony. I work for a church. The church bought and renovated a large theater hall in downtown Jerusalem, turning it into a confrence hall. The manager is a secular Israeli guy. The janitor, however, is an Israeli Arab named (of all things) Islam. Neither are Christian. And we all get along fine, thank you very much.
So anyway, my point is that you should kindly stop speaking as if you know of things you don't have a clue about. Honestly, come visit the area (it's not nearly as dangerous as the news makes it seem - we all know how they like to focus on the gory parts). See things for yourself. Once you've been here and had firsthand experience - from both sides - you'll be able to speak with a certain amount of credibility on the subject. Until that point however, your views are coming across as so radically biased that there's not many people here that are taking you seriously - even if they do agree with you in general. :)
Just some friendly advice - I hope I didn't come across as belittling or offensive. :)
I dont kniow what the hell those "things" are actualui fighting for over there. Its a barren land with no real strategical or economical value. Hell just go buy some country in Africa or some relly big island and you could fit the entire jewish population there.
Oy... first off, please put a little bit more effort into actually spelling - you'll find you're a lot more persuasive if you use proper spelling and grammar. :)
Second... no real value? Puh-leese (http://www.israel21c.org/bin/en.jsp?enZone=Views&enDisplay=view&enPage=BlankPage&enDispWhat=object&enDispWho=Views%5El181).
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lol, hi sandwich, i was wondering when you'd come back
when i say israelis i mean the government, all the israelis i know on an individual level are nice ppl
christians... well maybe not.
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Descrimination at any level is never a good thing, it is always good to keep a somewhat open mind, I suppose you could call me Agnostic at this point, though I used to be Christian. Christians aren't bad people
My point is if you make blanket statements about any group, be it racial, religious, national, sexual, political or economic, than your likely bordering on illogic and should probably shut up
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My point is if you make blanket statements about any group, be it racial, religious, national, sexual, political or economic, than your likely bordering on illogic and should probably shut up
Agreed
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I dunno... these days, everyone (who's not a total idiot) knows that everyone knows that blanket statements are just that - blanket statements - and that there are many exceptions to the rule. I don't see a problem with generalizing under such conditions. Of course, moderation in all things.
Including moderation. :D
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http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/0323-09.htm
http://www.motherjones.com/commentary/columns/2006/05/the_israel_lobby.html
http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0321/dailyUpdate.html
the sites might be a little sketchy (i know, christian science...), but the study is real, got a printed copy of it in my house
Very interesting....
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Oy... first off, please put a little bit more effort into actually spelling - you'll find you're a lot more persuasive if you use proper spelling and grammar.
Second... no real value? Puh-leese.
-Wow, so there's some sort of magical connection between the Jews and the land of Palestine that gives them super academic powers?!
No one denies that Jews have contributed more than their fair share to human knowledge.
This may come as a shock to you, but many of the the world's greatest physicists, who were Jewish,lived before Israel existed. I know, must be some sort of crazy super jew that didn't need the Israeli state in order to draw his paper publishing power from.
Since everyone's tired of my facetious tone, the point is that so far as "The Conflict" is concerned, we're talking about the land not the value of the human beings that populate it. Jews can aide the human race just as well from Estonia as they could from Israel.
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If it weren't for Jewish Scientists, we wouldn't have reached the Moon, quite frankly.
Oddly enough it was a combination of Jewish mastery of the physical sciences and Astronomical equations that were based on the learning of Arab countries such as Persia that made it possible.
Just goes to show :)
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If it weren't for Jewish Scientists, we wouldn't have reached the Moon, quite frankly.
Oddly enough it was a combination of Jewish mastery of the physical sciences and Astronomical equations that were based on the learning of Arab countries such as Persia that made it possible.
Just goes to show :)
although...... NASA had the odd Nazi V2 bloke like Von Braun, too.....
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Ahhhh, wihout whittle the jet age would be nowhere,............
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Indeed, but most of our scientific achievements have been made because of the contributions of many countries. We still wouldn't have got to the moon were it not also, for example, for the US/European (as in 'People who originated in Europe) skill at Engineering and Industry and the existence of the wheels of industry there to allow the massive project to take place.
That, I think, is why I find it so infuriating when everyone pulls in different directions.
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At the end of the day i am grateful for women ;7
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although...... NASA had the odd Nazi V2 bloke like Von Braun, too.....
Von Braun wasn't a Nazi Party member IIRC...though whether that matters is highly dubious.
On the other hand, a very real argument can be made that Jewish scientists built the atomic bomb.
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who ever put jewishness into question anyways?
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I dont kniow what the hell those "things" are actualui fighting for over there. Its a barren land with no real strategical or economical value. Hell just go buy some country in Africa or some relly big island and you could fit the entire jewish population there.
Note: I used the word "things" because you can not call human people who actualy loke to blow eachothers children families etc into the air for well for the heck of it basicly. They have no realistic reason to keep foghting like this.
I think it's posts like that which are causing the problem to be honest. :/
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although...... NASA had the odd Nazi V2 bloke like Von Braun, too.....
Von Braun wasn't a Nazi Party member IIRC...though whether that matters is highly dubious.
On the other hand, a very real argument can be made that Jewish scientists built the atomic bomb.
Well, offhand, Von Braun was responsible for the V2 rocket program, which would include the use of Jewish (etc) slave labour, and he did pick out slaves from the camps for that. He was most definately a Nazi party member, though - otherwise he wouldn't have had his job.
Also, Arthur Rudolph who worked and was awarded for said work on the Saturn V, renounced his US citizenship after he came under investigation for war crimes in the 80s (I think as part of a deal to avoid charges - essentially by agreeing to leave the US).
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I think it's appropriate for me to point out that you never went to the moon, so it's a moot point.
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Beach shelled, Israel not sure if they did it...
How did we get to this point anyway?
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I think it's appropriate for me to point out that you never went to the moon, so it's a moot point.
Hmm, you're right (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,26705.0.html), of course.
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I think it's appropriate for me to point out that you never went to the moon, so it's a moot point.
...
(http://www.aqsx85.dsl.pipex.com/monkeywtf.jpg)
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(http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/img/baboon.jpg)
Babooooooooooooooooooon !!!
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who ever put jewishness into question anyways?
I second that. Why has this thread derailed? *Stares at Atheist*
Anyway Sandwich, with all due respect... WTF are you talking about?! When it's the Israeli Military that bulldozes civilian buildings, uses civilian meat shields, and murders palestenians, your idea of 'blanket statements' goes out the window. Hell, if you were stationed in a particular division of the Israeli Military, I'd ask "How many Palestenian kids did you shoot in the back in order to get that promotion?"... But I don't know enough about you to decide whether or not you are, so I wont ask that question. Maybe after the Zionists... I mean Military stop with their actions, maybe then the palestenians wont be feeding anti-Islamic propaganda, lots of which is partially true.
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who ever put jewishness into question anyways?
I second that. Why has this thread derailed? *Stares at Atheist*
Anyway Sandwich, with all due respect... WTF are you talking about?! When it's the Israeli Military that bulldozes civilian buildings, uses civilian meat shields, and murders palestenians, your idea of 'blanket statements' goes out the window. Hell, if you were stationed in a particular division of the Israeli Military, I'd ask "How many Palestenian kids did you shoot in the back in order to get that promotion?"... But I don't know enough about you to decide whether or not you are, so I wont ask that question. Maybe after the Zionists... I mean Military stop with their actions, maybe then the palestenians wont be feeding anti-Islamic propaganda, lots of which is partially true.
Without making a personal judgement, I'm sure Sandwich would point out that a lot of this comes in response to the deliberate targeting and thus murder of civillians by Palestinian terrorist organisations, including one which now forms the government.
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Hamas also manages hospitals and schools, to treat wounded palestinians and educate the children (not 100% with hate propoganda, there's some math in there too). one of the reasons theyre popular with the arabs is because they do quite a bit to help out the average palestinian. they, unfortunately, also do bombings on the side.
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Hamas also manages hospitals and schools, to treat wounded palestinians and educate the children (not 100% with hate propoganda, there's some math in there too). one of the reasons theyre popular with the arabs is because they do quite a bit to help out the average palestinian. they, unfortunately, also do bombings on the side.
I'm well aware of the humanitarian activities of Hamas - I remember pointing it out earlier (elsewhere) in the hope that their election was not a vote for further bloodshed - but at the same time you can't just divorce their terrorist/murderous activities, and it's certainly not a little bit on the side but part of their definining identity. Hamas have, after all, had the opportunity to renounce violence now they have political power and influence, and they have not.
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Without making a personal judgement, I'm sure Sandwich would point out that a lot of this comes in response to the deliberate targeting and thus murder of civillians by Palestinian terrorist organisations, including one which now forms the government.
So Sharon's logic there is that because a few Palestenian extremists murdered our civilians, I will use the arm of my government to murder your civilians. I see. No wonder Iran loves Israel so much :).
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The only reason the Palestians didn't do all of the above, first, is that they don't have bulldozers.
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Without making a personal judgement, I'm sure Sandwich would point out that a lot of this comes in response to the deliberate targeting and thus murder of civillians by Palestinian terrorist organisations, including one which now forms the government.
So Sharon's logic there is that because a few Palestenian extremists murdered our civilians, I will use the arm of my government to murder your civilians. I see. No wonder Iran loves Israel so much :).
Mmm.... that would be an oversimplification. It's not a course of action I believe works, but I understand the logic due to the old IRA campaigns. Essentially, it's the use of troops as a police force, raiding houses, etc, alongside retroactive punishment by destroying suicide bombers' houses (as often foreign benefactors will reward suicide bombers' families with cash).
For the most part, and simply by dint that there are Palestinians alive, it's obvious there is not an explicit plan to kill Palestinian civvies. That does not mean they give fair regard/value to said civillians lives, or that it's proportionate force to use M-16s against stone-throwing kids, but I'd say there is a world of difference between accidental deaths and the intentional, ordered and sole targeting of civillians.
Unfortunately, I'd also say that world of difference is pretty much eroded by a) the sheer number of civillians killed (and apparent disregard for that) and b) the number of troops who do murder, and go relatively unpunished for it (the guy who shot and killed a British journalist springs to mind). I view neither side as better than the other, just wrong in different ways, and the key to peace is to right both wrongs. Somehow.
In any case, the Palestinian arguement is equally wrong when put into these types of simple terms - the Israeli army kills Palestinian civillians, so they go out and murder similarly innocent Israelis.
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In all the years I have been a member of HLP I have never seen a political debate, or any debate in general, as ****ty as this one.
I recommend Turambar be banned from these discussions at least until he learns ****ing basic grammar and spelling for christ sake.
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I don't know if it's worth getting into this one for me. Especially considering I'm
1. Israeli
2. More critical of Israeli politics/military stance than some non-Israelis.
Anyway, whoever thinks Israel is purposly shelling Gaza beaches to murder civilians should go guillotine themselves and then walk around a few times showing their severedhead to everyone. Israelis couldn't care less. Killing civilian Palestinians serves no purpose for Israel.
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Israelis couldn't care less.
And there you've hit the nail on the head. That is the Israeli government's opinion on killing civilians. They really don't care about civilian casualties as long as they aren't enough to cause worldwide outrage. If you don't believe that answer me this one question. What military target was on that beach?
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Israelis couldn't care less.
And there you've hit the nail on the head. That is the Israeli government's opinion on killing civilians. They really don't care about civilian casualties as long as they aren't enough to cause worldwide outrage.
That's certainly how it feels to me; it seems that protecting Palestinian civillian lives are very, very, very low down on the scale of concerns for the IDF.
If you don't believe that answer me this one question. What military target was on that beach?
The claim was that they were routinely targeting rocket-firing militants in North Gaza. As Israel haven't accepted responsibility (to be fair, we can't definitively know anyways, as there are also landmines and old munitions on that beach, both of which have been blamed for it), it's hard to know exactly what was being aimed at.
Frankly, using naval artillery for that purpose seems idiotic - literal overkill - but there you go.
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The claim was that they were routinely targeting rocket-firing militants in North Gaza.
How convinient that the militants happened to be sitting on the beach in plain view of a ship anchored off the coast while waving a flag saying "We are palestinian terrorists" then.
Like I said they really don't care if their indiscriminate shelling does kill civilians. The only time they do care with when they kill enough that it bites them on the arse like in this case.
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As the old addage goes,
"Give them enough rope"
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The claim was that they were routinely targeting rocket-firing militants in North Gaza.
How convinient that the militants happened to be sitting on the beach in plain view of a ship anchored off the coast while waving a flag saying "We are palestinian terrorists" then.
Like I said they really don't care if their indiscriminate shelling does kill civilians. The only time they do care with when they kill enough that it bites them on the arse like in this case.
Well, to be fair here, it's unclear if they were actually aiming at the beach itself. That is not a defense of it (shelling), of course.
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Then question becomes what were they aiming at?
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Giving us subject matter to rant/flame/debate over at the moment i guess...
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Then question becomes what were they aiming at?
Um, somewhere else? I don't have a map, natch, so can't even begin to speculate.
Apparently they target open areas in general, which seems remarkably stupid/careless/callous.
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I recommend Turambar be banned from these discussions at least until he learns ****ing basic grammar and spelling for christ sake.
well frak you.
somebody's got to stand up for the little guy
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Apparently they target open areas in general, which seems remarkably stupid/careless/callous.
That's my point. The tactic that the IDF appear to be using is that if they routinely shell wide open areas the terrorists won't go there to launch rocket attacks on them.
Which pretty much proves my point that they really don't give a damn about killing civilians.
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In all honesty if i heard about an area getting routinely shelled, i would avoid it...........
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In all honesty if i heard about an area getting routinely shelled, i would avoid it...........
Except if you're working in any sort of agrarian area, you don't have a choice, or you'll starve. So all you can do is go out and hope they don't misfire and overshoot their current target (i.e. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4910810.stm). I have to admit seeing some parallels to Sarajevo in it.
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It would save me ploughing it :D
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I find this comment the most telling.
"As long as calm does not prevail on the Israeli side, neither will it do so on the Palestinian side," Israeli Defence Minister Shaul Mofaz said this week. "Our operations are going to intensify."
In other words as long as the rocket attacks keep coming we're going to keep indicriminately shelling Gaza in the hope of causing them to stop.
See the problem is that there is a word for indiscriminate attacks on civilians in order to cause political change....
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I recommend Turambar be banned from these discussions at least until he learns ****ing basic grammar and spelling for christ sake.
well frak you.
somebody's got to stand up for the little guy
By the little guy, do you mean your own idiot ego, or the lives of Palestinians which you know nothing about, but you're going to argue for anyway?
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somebody's got to stand up for the little guy
indeed, someone must stand up for Israel, a couple million jews surrounded by hundreds of millions of jew-hating muslims.
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i mean the thousands of palestinians who had their homes and land stolen and are being repressed and slaughtered, backed by the 'champion of freedom,' the USA.
please don't make it personal.
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i mean the thousands of palestinians who had their homes and land stolen and are being repressed and slaughtered, backed by the 'champion of freedom,' the USA.
please don't make it personal.
Does that include the ones who go out and slaughter innocent Israelis?
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Both sides do s***, but only one side get's the blessing from a official government.
Palestinian terrorists = loose group of fanatics over which you DON'T have control, so you can't blame the Palestinian state for whatever they do
Isreali Army = something controled by the government and so every fu** up it does is the governments and the states fault.
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Frankly, using naval artillery for that purpose seems idiotic - literal overkill - but there you go.
IIRC the biggest guns in the possesion of the Israeli Navy are OTO-Melara Compact 76mm. (That's not even decent ante as landbased artillery goes, everyone uses at least 105mm now.) It's also worth noting that naval artillery is inherently more accurate (it's designed to hit point targets, whereas army artillery is actually designed for a degree of inaccuracy; works better that way) and thus better suited for counterbattery fire. If that's what they were doing.
Trashman: Remember who's running the Palestinian government now? Yeah. Hamas. They approve terrorism. I'd abandon that last post real fast.
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Trashman: Remember who's running the Palestinian government now? Yeah. Hamas. They approve terrorism. I'd abandon that last post real fast.
the US government supports israel, and israel has killed far more innocents than the palestinians, they just do it with troops. the US supports terror, will you abandon them?
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the US government supports israel, and israel has killed far more innocents than the palestinians, they just do it with troops. the US supports terror, will you abandon them?
Let me summarize here.
IRRELEVANT TO MY ARGUMENT.
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is it? you say that trashman should abandon his post because Hamas supports terrorism. I'm saying you should abandon yours because Israel does worse, and does so with the backing of the nation trying to "bring democracy to the world".
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Trashman: Remember who's running the Palestinian government now? Yeah. Hamas. They approve terrorism. I'd abandon that last post real fast.
And before Hamas? Or is any palestinian government a terrorist supporter (without any real proof mind you)?
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Actually, I think that the average Israeli citizen does care about Palestinian civilians getting killed.
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is it? you say that trashman should abandon his post because Hamas supports terrorism. I'm saying you should abandon yours because Israel does worse, and does so with the backing of the nation trying to "bring democracy to the world".
Abandon my post. Riiiight. I point out that Trashman is basically spewing garbage (how appropriate), and made no mention of the US at all. Nothing in my post even relates to the US. (Okay, perhaps very very tenous link via the fact that some US ships also mount the type of gun mentioned...but it's made in Italy.) Your argument is, was, and remains totally irrevelant to the points of my post. I refuse to engage in this battle of wits any further; you're clearly unarmed.
And before Hamas? Or is any palestinian government a terrorist supporter (without any real proof mind you)?
Claiming responsiblity isn't proof enough for you? The PLO did that quite a bit as well. The PLO at least made an attempt to seperate itself from its roots, though. Hamas has done no such thing.
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And before Hamas? Or is any palestinian government a terrorist supporter (without any real proof mind you)?
I have no real proof, but I would place a fair wager that Hamas has had connections to the Palesinian government for quite a while
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i mean the thousands of palestinians who had their homes and land stolen and are being repressed and slaughtered, backed by the 'champion of freedom,' the USA.
I see you buy the arab bull**** propaganda about Israel.
Being slaughtered is what happened in Rwanda, not what happens in Palestine. Frankly, given the situation the Israelis have showed remarkable restraint, immense restraint event (as evidence by the ever larger number of palestinians in existance). If it were arabs, chinese or russians instead of israelis I doubt we'd be having a palestinian question, cause there wouldn't be any palestinian left in the region.
Their homes and land stolen, we'll tought luck. Muslims stole jewish land and homes too, from Morocco all the way to Iran. And you can bet your granny on it that what the muslims stole has quite a bit more value too.
Again, maybe the arab nations should be working to integrate the palestinian refugees they have instead of letting them languish (for the 3rd generation already) on their lands while using them as a cynical tool for oppression and to legitimise anti-semitism.
That said, I have nothing more to say to you as it's clear where you stand.
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RESTRAINT!! THEY ****ING INVADED!
you obviously are getting incomplete history lessons
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RESTRAINT!! THEY ****ING INVADED!
you obviously are getting incomplete history lessons
Ok, calm down.
You can also place those invasions within the context of Arab nations threatening Israel, such as was seen immediately after the state was formed in the 1948 war; for example the West Bank being captured during the 6-Day War in 1967 (which there is a strong arguement for being caused by Arab actions, such the operations of Syrian supported Fedayeen in Israel and an Egyptian blockade).
Plus - and more importantly - 'restraint' is being characterised here as a response to terrorist actions which are either implictly or explcitly (now) supported by the Palestinian government. The intimation is that the Israelis have the capacity to out-and-out obliterate the Palestinian population in response, but do not.
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Both sides do s***, but only one side get's the blessing from a official government.
Palestinian terrorists = loose group of fanatics over which you DON'T have control, so you can't blame the Palestinian state for whatever they do
Isreali Army = something controled by the government and so every fu** up it does is the governments and the states fault.
I promised myself I'd stay out of threads like these, but this smacks of someone who has ignored the news the past few months.
Terror into Israel comes from three main groups.
Hamas, Fatah and the Islamic Jihad.
Fatah untill recently were the controlling branch of the Palestinian goverment. They were voted out of power in the Palestinians first election. Hamas came into power. Hamas, the same body that repetedly took pride in bombing Israel. The same group that says one thing to English newspapers and another to arabic ones. You can argue wether each side is better or worse then the other untill your fingers are raw on the keyboard. But I suggest you read up on the current situation before about the palestinians being so disorganised when the goverment is an organisation that bombed Israel pretty much routinely.
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You jsut don't get it do you?
No matter who comes to power in Palestinia they can't control the suicide bombers! They can yell "STOP!" all they want, 90% won't listen - tehy cannot be punished as tehy are loose cells.
Israel has a army that must follow orders, and breach of orders must and can be punished. See the difference?
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You jsut don't get it do you?
No matter who comes to power in Palestinia they can't control the suicide bombers! They can yell "STOP!" all they want, 90% won't listen - tehy cannot be punished as tehy are loose cells.
Israel has a army that must follow orders, and breach of orders must and can be punished. See the difference?
Actually, the Palestinians do have security forces (police), who can be ordered to take on the likes of Hamas, and the high visibility nature of activists means it is possible for said police to take action should they wish to.
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Actually, the Palestinians do have security forces (police), who can be ordered to take on the likes of Hamas, and the high visibility nature of activists means it is possible for said police to take action should they wish to.
DUH!
Tehre is a small matter of there being many, many cells that don't know of eachoter...hunderds of them are nameless - you don't even know where to begin to search. It's like saying "The US can totaly stop all thieves on the street. Tehy got the police!".
the Isreali army is different - tehy are all registered and accounted for.
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You jsut don't get it do you?
No matter who comes to power in Palestinia they can't control the suicide bombers! They can yell "STOP!" all they want, 90% won't listen - tehy cannot be punished as tehy are loose cells.
Israel has a army that must follow orders, and breach of orders must and can be punished. See the difference?
You're changing the issue. That's not the question; the question was government support, not government control.
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Plus - and more importantly - 'restraint' is being characterised here as a response to terrorist actions which are either implictly or explcitly (now) supported by the Palestinian government. The intimation is that the Israelis have the capacity to out-and-out obliterate the Palestinian population in response, but do not.
Not much of an argument though is it? "We're not committing genocide so we're the good guys!"
Yet I've heard it many times as a defence from Israelis. Quite frankly I rank this one up there with the west having the position that they are good to Iran cause they haven't nuked them yet.
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That's certainly how it feels to me; it seems that protecting Palestinian civillian lives are very, very, very low down on the scale of concerns for the IDF.
The IDF has a very short scale of concerns, and - like in Asimov's Laws of Robotics, no lower-ranked concern will ever take precendence over a higher-ranked concern.
The first concern is the safety of Israeli civillians. Number two, safety of Israeli soldiers. Third and last, safety of other non-combatants.
So yes, in a way, your statement is correct. The concern for the well-being of Palestinian non-combatants is last on the list of concerns, but please take note (and this is more unusual than you might think) that their safety IS on the IDF's list of concerns. Had it not been, I would not have been ordered - at no small risk to myself - to set foot in Jenin in early 2002. The IDF went after terrorist cells hiding among the civilian population of Jenin in that operation; the best way to strike at the terrorists with the least damage to civilians was to go in on the ground. Had the welfare of the Palestinian civilians not been on the list of the IDF's concerns at all, what would have prevented us from indiscriminately bombing the whole city? That would have more effectively eliminated the terrorist cells operating out of Jenin, as well as prevented an deaths on the IDF's side.
But we didn't do that because we do care. Sometimes, we wonder if we care about the Palestinians more than they care about themselves. Somebody once said that this will only ever end once the Palestinians love their children more than they hate us. I have to agree.
I find this comment the most telling.
"As long as calm does not prevail on the Israeli side, neither will it do so on the Palestinian side," Israeli Defence Minister Shaul Mofaz said this week. "Our operations are going to intensify."
In other words as long as the rocket attacks keep coming we're going to keep indicriminately shelling Gaza in the hope of causing them to stop.
See the problem is that there is a word for indiscriminate attacks on civilians in order to cause political change....
You just blatantly put words into someone's mouth. Where did this "indiscriminate" thing come from? Do you have any clue whatsoever how many dead Palestinians there would be if Israel started shelling Gaza indiscriminately? Try hundreds, if not thousands. We certainly have plenty of firepower to do so. But instead, we've "stuck to our guns" (ironic saying, that) with the targeted strikes on Kassam launch sites and cells.
Where's the cry out to the Palestinians to stop indiscriminately firing rockets at Israeli towns, eh? Did you hear about the rocket that fell directly on top of a teenager's bed (http://www.google.com/search?q=kassam+rocket+bed)? He had left for school just a few minutes beforehand.
What would you have Israel do? Make every effort to eliminate civilian casualties on the Palestinian side, even at the expense of the lives of Israeli soldiers? Sounds like Jenin all over again, just more so.
Anyway, regarding the shell that landed on the beach in Gaza, I honestly don't know what the real story is (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1150355506993&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull). All I can say is that the IDF does not deliberately target Palestinian non-combatants - that is not only utterly pointless, but stupid, and the IDF knows that.
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Had the welfare of the Palestinian civilians not been on the list of the IDF's concerns at all, what would have prevented us from indiscriminately bombing the whole city? That would have more effectively eliminated the terrorist cells operating out of Jenin, as well as prevented an deaths on the IDF's side.
International condemnation. I already explained this one several times. Even the US who currently veto any attempt to pass resolutions against Israel would be unable to continue to do so in the face of such an attrocity.
Sure committing genocide would mean that there were no terrorist attacks from Jenin but there would be repercussions even though the IDF don't care about civilians.
But we didn't do that because we do care. Sometimes, we wonder if we care about the Palestinians more than they care about themselves. Somebody once said that this will only ever end once the Palestinians love their children more than they hate us. I have to agree.
It will end when both sides stop acting like ****ing babies.
You just blatantly put words into someone's mouth. Where did this "indiscriminate" thing come from? Do you have any clue whatsoever how many dead Palestinians there would be if Israel started shelling Gaza indiscriminately?
It's indiscriminate because the IDF have no idea who is in the area where their shells will fall. It's indiscriminate because shelling is not a particularly surgical attack. The IDF may choose their target with some precision but can you honestly tell me that the shells hit those targets with the same precision?
Where's the cry out to the Palestinians to stop indiscriminately firing rockets at Israeli towns, eh?
Of course the palestinians need to stop the rocket attacks. No one ever said that they shouldn't. But if you respond in kind how are you any better than they are?
And that's what my problem is with this tactic. How many rocket attacks were there before they started shelling? How many after? Has shelling Gaza had any effect on the number of attacks? Nope. There were more attacks in May than in any month proceeding it and the total for June is even higher. So shelling is not achieving it's goal and I'd put it to you that it was never meant to either.
Shelling is nothing more than a tit for tat attack designed to say that if Gaza launches a rocket at Israel then Israel will shell them right back. That's all that it is. Artillery shelling of wide open areas is never going to have a military effect in that way.
Anyway, regarding the shell that landed on the beach in Gaza, I honestly don't know what the real story is (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1150355506993&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull). All I can say is that the IDF does not deliberately target Palestinian non-combatants - that is not only utterly pointless, but stupid, and the IDF knows that.
No one says they deliberately targetted civilians. As has been said several times already the point is that the IDF didn't care who was on the beach.
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You jsut don't get it do you?
No matter who comes to power in Palestinia they can't control the suicide bombers! They can yell "STOP!" all they want, 90% won't listen - tehy cannot be punished as tehy are loose cells.
Israel has a army that must follow orders, and breach of orders must and can be punished. See the difference?
Did you read anything I said? Hamas, one of the largest(if not the largest) of the organised groups in the Palestinian country, is the goverment. It can control itself very well. It has the largest militerised force out of the 3 terror groups. IF it wanted to, it could control itself and others, the same way it was done when the Palestinian goverment made a show of arresting terrorists.
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Had the welfare of the Palestinian civilians not been on the list of the IDF's concerns at all, what would have prevented us from indiscriminately bombing the whole city?
International humanitarian war, alongside the Geneva convention, would seem to prevent the IDF indiscriminately bombing Jenin. Also, such an act would be more or less morally indefensible - akin to the tactics of totalitarian dictators who kill entire communities in revenge for a single act of dissent or rebellion - and make it very (politicall and diplmoatically) difficult for even the strongest allies to support Israel.
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Had the welfare of the Palestinian civilians not been on the list of the IDF's concerns at all, what would have prevented us from indiscriminately bombing the whole city?
International humanitarian war, alongside the Geneva convention, would seem to prevent the IDF indiscriminately bombing Jenin. Also, such an act would be more or less morally indefensible - akin to the tactics of totalitarian dictators who kill entire communities in revenge for a single act of dissent or rebellion - and make it very (politicall and diplmoatically) difficult for even the strongest allies to support Israel.
It would also never be supported by the Israeli people.
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I think you're right there. Too many easy comparisons with the Nazis for the Jewish population to ever support genocide.
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I think you're right there. Too many easy comparisons with the Nazis for the Jewish population to ever support genocide.
Nice to see that you do give Israelis some minimal amount of credit :p
But I think Sandwich is exaggerating the IDF's concern for Palestinians. Israel isn't the only victim in this conflict. That said, I'm pretty sure a lot of other nations would be doing the same thing if they were in the same situation, and then they'd be the ones continually criticised in the global arena.
There may also be a David vs. Goliath aspect. Perhaps if the situation in terms of geography, ethnic distribution, demographics, history, etc. was the same but the Palestinians were the ones with military might on their side, the global criticism would also be directed more towards them.
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Nice to see that you do give Israelis some minimal amount of credit :p
I don't doubt that the average man on the street in Israel is as sick of the state of affairs as anyone else in the world. More sick probably as it's going to be the biggest news story over there and affect them personally in many cases.
Problem is that they don't seem to be any smarter than the average voter in the rest of the west and do stupid things like voting for hardliners who claim that they'll punish the Palestinians for terrorism until they stop. Personally I think that's a very naive point of view. You don't stop terrorism by military means. Pretty much every victory over terrorism has been by removing their grass roots support by making sure that everyone sees exactly how empty and hateful their rhetoric actually is.
I don't really single out Israelis any more for this attitude any more than I single out any other nation for it. People in the UK and US have been just as guilty of the opinion that you can stamp out terrorism with guns and bombings.
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And the attitude that voters appear to have in so many countries around the world is one of the big global-political problems right now. It's sort of related to the problem that jingoism in foreign policy used to be, maybe...
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You don't stop terrorism by military means. Pretty much every victory over terrorism has been by removing their grass roots support by making sure that everyone sees exactly how empty and hateful their rhetoric actually is.
News to me.
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Kara, I'm really going to have to call BS, because that's never happened. That's not how the major terrorist groups of the '60s and '70s got done in. The IRA defanged itself; the rest were forcibly dismantled by having their members locked up, killed, or too scared to resurface. Either you can get rid of them by force or wait for them to run out of steam.
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or you could just get rid of their motivation.
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They're already motivated. It's too late for that.
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and that's why my foreign policy would be better than your foreign policy
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I'd better qualify that earlier statement cause it looks like I'm saying that removing grass roots support is the only thing that needs to be done. What I'm saying is that every time a victory can be claimed against terrorism removing that support has been a major part of the equation. If not the biggest part. The only other way terrorists stop is if they achieve their goal.
Kara, I'm really going to have to call BS, because that's never happened. That's not how the major terrorist groups of the '60s and '70s got done in. The IRA defanged itself; the rest were forcibly dismantled by having their members locked up, killed, or too scared to resurface. Either you can get rid of them by force or wait for them to run out of steam.
Let me point out that locking people up does not count as military means right here and now as that's probably what's thrown you. Locked up (generally) means a fair trial and incarceration through the civilian justice system. Life in a prison cell usually prevents the terrorists from using that person as a rallying point in a way that simply killing him doesn't.
The IRA for instance defanged themselves because of talks with the British and Irish governments but for a while it looked like the Real IRA were going to keep fighting. Why did they stop? Was it cause of assassinations and British soldiers knocking down their houses with tanks? Or was it cause with on-going talks they no longer had support from the population who simply wanted an end to the violence?
Why do you think ETA quit? Cause the military wiped out their entire leadership? Or cause after the Madrid bombings everyone was sick of terrorists and no one wanted to support them?
Feel free to point out a single case where military attacks has been the major contributor to the end of a terrorist organisation and removing grass roots support hasn't been one. Cause I can't think of one off the top of my head.
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Let's not the massive anti-ETA protests (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/39456.stm) following the likes of the kidnapping and murder of Miguel Blanco (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miguel_%C3%81ngel_Blanco), though, which shown disgust within the Basque region itself - akin to if masses of Catholic Northern Irish had anti-IRA rallies.