Hard Light Productions Forums
Hosted Projects - Standalone => Fate of the Galaxy => Topic started by: Scourge of Ages on October 11, 2007, 02:19:21 pm
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Since in every third thread roughly, there arises some discussion about what is or is not canon, how crazy George Lucas is, and what books suck or do not, I thought I would open one strictly for that purpose.
Now I know somebody's going to say "But this is a mod forum, not a general Star Wars forum!", I say that this'll at least keep the normal threads a little cleaner.
And now to start this party:
Say what you will about the NJO series of books, I think they were at least interesting and generally well-written. Maybe they didn't make sense or fit in to continuity or whatever, they were still a good story.
Also, just because you generally don't like anything after the Thrawn trilogy and you despise NJO, it doesn't mean there's nothing good left. I've read a few of the Legacy of the Force books, and I think they're really good.
Stickied --Chief
Un-sticked due to lack of continuing relevance --Brand-X
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So far, among the current staff, the general consensus is just that the Vong idea itself doesn't fit right. No one likes how the series fits in, and if no one on the staff wants to be involved with it, the odds of getting anything based around it aren't very good. The same goes for the prequels, midichlorians, significant lack of attempt to fit established events and vehicles, etc. The prequels will not be used as a canon reference over books that already established something that should have happened during the same timeline. If it can be reasoned (within reason :)) that something could have happened in the prequels without conflicting other references, that isn't inane, it may be considered as a source. But the primary sources are, Original Trilogy, most of the books, everything else. This doesn't really eliminate too much, just a few ships from the New Trilogy that no one on the staff likes, and particular events surrounding the Vong. Everything is pretty much fair game I think.
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OOH OOH! What about the Black Fleet Crisis!? K-Wings FTW!!!!one1!
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Well, I know I've done my share of thread derailing, so I'm part of the guilty lot. Apologies on that front.
If there is anything good post-Thrawn trilogy, I wouldn't know because I stopped reading Star Wars novels and comics roughly 8 years ago, right before the whole Episode I craze.
The books I remember having read are all rooted in OT stuff, maybe the NT has some good EU, I really don't know.
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I always thought that the ships were better in the new trilogy (older ships) because of Republic vs Totalitarian state of things. *shrugs* Lottsa corruption in a totalitarian state. IDK
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I still consider everything "canon" that is officially declared canon. This includes the prequels (which is the highest level of canon, and I don't see why some "fans" argue that they aren't/shouldn't be), the Thrawn campaign, and the Yuuzhan Vong invasion. Everything, except for those sources that directly contradict canon - Infinities stories - is officially recognized as "happened" in the SW universe.
Why we are kind of lucky is that we will only have to deal with the Galactic Civil War, supposing that our shipset will be designed for this period. Why I say we are lucky is because most of the "space action" is covered in the X-wing series of games, games that most of you know already, and will compare SWC's feel to your favorite SW space sim. Therefore I fail to see why the canonicity of the Yuuzhan Vong needs to be discussed here, considering that it is heavily unlikely we will cover that period. Even if we could complete models so fast - and here I do not only mean finalizing meshes, but completing it textures, POF data, and tables - we would have to consider that the public as a whole know. I would assume SWC's players to know the very basics of SW (What's and X-wing? Who do they normally shoot? etc.) This does not assume any knowledge of the Yuuzhan Vong, and what happened decades after the movies.
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I remember learning about Star Wars canon some time ago, I forget where and when. "Offical" canon is: The movies are "true" canon, followed by the novelizations of the movies, followed by the radio plays. I would assume that after that are the regular novels and games. I think we can all agree that the novels and games do not really adhere stricktly to each other.
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What you mean by "'true' canon" is called G-canon: the movies and anything Lucas himself says. Novels and games are also canon, except that when there is a conflict in consistency, the movies are to be preferred over the EU. This does not include the existence of the Yuuzhan Vong since there is nothing in the movies that contradict it, and Lucas said nothing to decanonize it.
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One thing I wonder though is how come on the shiplist, there are virtually no prequel craft to speak of (barring the CR70). I'm sure that there were ships from that era still around such as Venators, Acclimators, Theta-class shuttles, Trade Federation Battleships (the few donut ships that survived the Clone Wars that is). I mean, there's only an 18 year difference between the end of the Battle of Coruscant (CW), and the Battle of Yavin (GCW), so you'd think that this tech wouldn't just up and disappear. Heck, some of the Rebel Fleet is made up of old CW era ships (according to several comics), and then there's still a whole bunch of anonymous craft in escorting the Medical Frigate at the end of ESB (in the background, not the CR90s, Medium Transports, X-wings or Y-wings).
Do people just hate the prequels that much to the point of hating the new ship designs as well?
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from what I understand If they weren't in the movies, they aren't going to be put in SWC initially
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Do people just hate the prequels that much to the point of hating the new ship designs as well?
i certainly do. the arc-170 is a piece of ****
did you notice that there were no dreadnoughts, victory destroyers, z-95s or y-wings in the prequels?
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Do people just hate the prequels that much to the point of hating the new ship designs as well?
That's what I wonder. Hate the storyline / bad plot / contradiction? OK, whatever. I might even agree with you. But you can't say the ships aren't cool. :D
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If memory serves correct I believe that there were a few Victory-Aces and Dreadnaughts in the ROTS novelization, but not many. Quite arguably, the Z-95 Headhunter does NOT have roots in the Republic military, nor does the Y-wing. The Z-95 was manufactured under no single client, so Incom/Subpro sold this ship to many different groups and governments. Also, depending on what version of the Z-95, you wouldn't see any space combat versions until the Mark IIs (Mark Is were atmospheric fighters originally). While it is true that the Z-95 existed in form or another for at least several decades earning its place as the most widely proliferated fighter, that doesn't mean it would be in use by the Republic, as major militaries prefer to keep thier craft unique if possible.
As for the Y-wings, most of those wound up in Rebellion hands and may have only started production in small numbers initially.
I could be wrong, and though I would have preferred to have at least seen TIE Fighters in place of the V-wings (as originally planned), I have nothing against the ship designs themselves (though Naboo aesthetic has always seemed a bit too flashy when compared to the beat up ships that we're used to).
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The reason you see a lack of prequel era ships in the shiplist is because this is not a prequel based mod. We're planning our shiplist and game design around the original trilogy. That's not to say that the game will never include prequel era ships at all. I'd love to flesh out the rebel fleet a bit with some separatist ships (apparently, according to C-Canon, they did have a few leftovers from the clone wars that they used) But if you look at the priority design, it's pretty well explained in there (see the shiplist thread for more details)
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brandx0, I know this isn't a prequel-based mod, what I was curious about is the lack of ships that survived the Clone Wars well into the Galactic Civil War such as the Acclimator-class or even some of the civilian transports and freighters. Slave I and the Millenium Falcon are still aroud. Hell, Dreadnaught heavy cruisers still see active service in remote sections of the Empire and they've been around before Episode I.
I understand that not all prequel-era ships would fit into any coherent storyline set within the GCW. It's not like you're going to see the Royal Naboo Queen's ship from Episode I because that was retired and was a one-in-a kind vessel. The Sith Infiltrator was an old Republic Sienar Systems Armed Courier prototype whose project was canned.
Sorry, I hope this clears up any confusion.
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I don't recall seeing any Acclamator-class cruisers in the OT, nor do I recall reading about them in the X-wing series, any of the Thrawn books, the Black Fleet crisis, any of the Bounty Hunter Wars novels, any of the "Tales" series, or any of the Jedi Academy books, not even in those Young Jedi Knights books.
why would they be in this game?
also, I recall Slave I having a different history before it was repainted and stuck into the prequels to make Boba Fett noob fanboys happy.
as for the falcon, well, wasnt that just an easter egg in RotS?
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If I understand correctly, the point is to first make the ships that will be used most, followed by the ships that people want to see most, and then the ships that fill out the last 5% of the Rebellion, Imperial, and Independent fleets. That would mean leaving most of the prequel ships until after the mod has been released initially.
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Makes perfect sense to me. In time, I imagine this will turn into Warlords for HW2 (nearly every ship in existence) just for the sake of variety. But there still has to be a prioritization. What is the "base" time frame of the mod? What are the "Base" most important ships to make that time frame work? It'll all get in there eventually, even if yet ANOTHER mod team takes it up and adds them. Those who want to use them can, those who don't want to don't have to. Everybody's happy. It's just not gonna happen in a day :)
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You know, lucas really should've included things from the novels in teh prequels. things like the insane clonemaster references in thrawn are ok, but he could've at least used dreadnaughts (AWESOME LOOKING SHIP) instead of those stupid venators, AKA SDs with racing stripes and holes cut in them.
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I think the whole problem with the prequels centers around the fact, that Lucas is in fact a very good set designer; but a poor script writer - and was given utter and full control of the new films with little quality control....or "too much" quality control.
There are way too many cameo appearances, way too many flashy sequences with little time for acting, real drama (falling to the dark side? come on, Machbeth did it a hell lot better). What the studios were consered with was getting another cash cow and milking it for all its worth, not in building the SW universe.
They put a man in full control, who himself admitted that he has his fallings as a director, and downright underlined that he can't write a script at all.
Don't believe me? Check out the special edition of THX1138 where all of this was said and outlined.
Back on the core of the topic:
As is the prequels can't stand on their own. Phantom Menance is an attrocity, while Attack of the Clones is an action flick with only whispers of the classic adventure shining through. Revenge of the Sith is finally something worthwhile but most people can't help but woe the missed opportunities: Griveous, the fall of Anakin, the stupid sequences with the droids etc. etc.
However there is another SW canon out there - though of lesser precedence than the films according to the "official canon guide": the SW comics published by Dark Horse.
DH IMHO has singlehandedly managed to salvage the whole era. Though I'm still have mixed feeling about the PM setting (way too many and way too sanctimonious jedi), from the Clone Wars and onwards they have managed to create a really captivating and fleshed out continuity with the classic trilogy.
When you add in the latest books from Karen Traviss about the Republic Commando/Clones you even get something definitly different but altogether undeniable SW in there, that's finally bringing something new to the overall picture like Zahn did with the Thrawn books or Stackpole did with the X-Wing series.
So I wouldn't be that adamant in offhandedly denying anything prequel. I'm a harsh critique of the prequel films too, but there's more to the era than the films itself with some really talented people working on the media, who themselves tried to address the problems our whole lot like to woe about.
Bottomline:
It's good to stick to the original source, the original feeling. It's even better to bring something new to the SW gaming...but don't forget that from time to time the magic was rekindled (like Bioware did with KOTOR).
My closing line is all in its due time, you yourself may find a piece of the Clone Wars or the Old Republic that's close to your heart if you let it give a chance. When the time comes you may feel inclined to connect the SWC with that part.
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I don't recall seeing any Acclamator-class cruisers in the OT, nor do I recall reading about them in the X-wing series, any of the Thrawn books, the Black Fleet crisis, any of the Bounty Hunter Wars novels, any of the "Tales" series, or any of the Jedi Academy books, not even in those Young Jedi Knights books.
why would they be in this game?
Ever play Empire At War? Galactic Empire makes use of them as troop transports. In Forces of Corruption, the Zann Consortium uses Droidekkas. These both take place during the OT.
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but were made after the prequels were.
by the same people who thought the prequels were good.
poor EAW, it had a chance to be Rebellion 2 but it failed utterly at everything it tried, except for looking pretty.
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......and?
I fail to see how badmouthing the execution of a story or gameplay has any effect on whether ships that carry over from one era to another should be used.
If it's a matter of "I don't like the fleet emblems painted on the Republic ships", that's fine, because after the formation of the Galactic Empire, all of that gets phased out. Don't believe me? Check out the tail end of Revenge of the Sith when a few Venators approach the Death Star. No more markings.
If you want to get into a seperate discussion about what Star Wars continuity is crap and what's gold, I'm cool with that. :cool:
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I think the reason people have problems with the pre-quels is that GL pretty much made a bunch of crap up that supposedly "was" but was strangely never mentioned or even hinted at before the pre-quels were released. The ships are cool, but they DIDN'T exist until the last batch of movies. It's just a fact that George decided to cash in on SW again, and instead of using old ideas, he made up a bunch of new so he could have a new toy line and games. There is no over-arching story, it's just about coinage, and that's a simple fact. It's techinically canon because George made it under the star wars label, but it literally didn't exist in any shape form or fashion until then. I want all the pre-quel ships in and available, for the sack of variety, but I agree that it's all made-up. And yes, I know it's a fantasy story, so before some jackass points that out, remember the context of the discussion.
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Thanks harvey, I think that was the best description of the prequels I've heard here yet.
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ya, pretty much. i hope he doesn't **** up the sequel trilogy if he ever does make it.
and btw, WTH WAS the vhong war? all i know about it is that chewie dies, thats it. but from what i've managed to pick up, it seems almost like :V: copied it for FS1. it just sounds out of place for SWs though. like the sissi-rhuk.
Bottomline:
It's good to stick to the original source, the original feeling. It's even better to bring something new to the SW gaming...but don't forget that from time to time the magic was rekindled (like Bioware did with KOTOR).
My closing line is all in its due time, you yourself may find a piece of the Clone Wars or the Old Republic that's close to your heart if you let it give a chance. When the time comes you may feel inclined to connect the SWC with that part.
now thats just sappy. :p
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The Yuuzhan Vong War was an event that brought about the near destruction of the New Republic (Galactic Alliance, as it was called). Most Outer-Rim systems were destroyed, species brought dangerously close to extinction. Coruscant was Vongformed (terraformed so that the environment was favorable to the Yuuzhan Vong). Apart from Chewbacca, a few other known Sw characters died, like Borsk Fey'lya.
All in all, it was a very devastating galaxywide conflict, where the Imperial Remnant and the Alliance had to form an alliance in order to survive.
That's all I recall. I never read any of those books, so I may be imprecise.
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but the New Republic and the Empire were already at peace, since Pellaeon and Bel Iblis negotiated the peace treaty at the end of Vision of the Future.
it'd really help their case if they read the other novels before writing their own.
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but the New Republic and the Empire were already at peace, since Pellaeon and Bel Iblis negotiated the peace treaty at the end of Vision of the Future.
it'd really help their case if they read the other novels before writing their own.
IIRC being at peace and forming an alliance are different thing.
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Turambar, I said that I did not read any of the NJO novels. I just read about the Yuuzhan Vong War in Wookieepedia. I might be incorrect. I just gave a quick summary to Titan, cause he asked what the "vhong war" was.
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Heh, you know what I just realized? The X-Wing series of books was supposedly based on the X-Wing game, and here we are basing a game on the X-Wing books. :)
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Actually, I thought we were using:
1) Original Trilogy + canon statements about them (from Lucas)
2) Books on that period
3) Games
4) Other sources
In that order.. more or less.
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Heh, you know what I just realized? The X-Wing series of books was supposedly based on the X-Wing game, and here we are basing a game on the X-Wing books. :)
well, yes, but theyre so damn well written, cover an important part of the EU timeline, and do so in a way that doesnt step on any continuity toes.
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Yes, but one observation if I may? The X-wing games bring serious issues with continuity that conflicts a great deal with the EU such as A-wings existing pre-Yavin, Mon Calamari vessels being part of the Alliance Fleet pre-Hoth, and God knows what else (TIE Interceptors existing pre-Yavin). Not that the missions were bad, but there is still some continuity fubar going on that needs to be addressed.
Also, as much as I love the Stackpole books, I felt that he based the combat too much on the X-wing games where fighters can take down cap ships with ease (though Rogue Squadron had a pretty good scenario pitting a rebel Corvette, Rogue, and Defender Wing (I think Defender was present) against a Carrack Cruiser and a Lancer Frigate. On the flip side, the Rebels were able to capture a Star Dreadnought, the Lusankya in The Bacta War using modified freighters and other small ships (actually been a while since I read that, there may have been larger ships, but I'll be damned if I can remember that). I never gave that much credit, unless those modified freighters being used were former Trade Federation Battleships (the 3km Diameter donut ships that were originally freighters).
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It was some 80 odd freighters of various sizes (ranging from light freighters to corvettes and bulk freighters) specially rigged to fire torpedos, probably a wing or two's worth of fighters, the ISDII Virulence (or Avarice? One of the two) that defected to Antilles, and the Thranta Frigate they found in the Alderaan graveyard. They didn't "capture" the Lusankya persay, but instead after a couple salvos of several hundred torpedos, they blew the front end off and the Drysso's second in command... relieved him... and surrendered because they didn't like Isard anyway and were getting large pieces of the ship and thousands of people killed cause of the biyatch.
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I still consider everything "canon" that is officially declared canon. This includes the prequels (which is the highest level of canon, and I don't see why some "fans" argue that they aren't/shouldn't be), the Thrawn campaign, and the Yuuzhan Vong invasion. Everything, except for those sources that directly contradict canon - Infinities stories - is officially recognized as "happened" in the SW universe.
Why we are kind of lucky is that we will only have to deal with the Galactic Civil War, supposing that our shipset will be designed for this period. Why I say we are lucky is because most of the "space action" is covered in the X-wing series of games, games that most of you know already, and will compare SWC's feel to your favorite SW space sim. Therefore I fail to see why the canonicity of the Yuuzhan Vong needs to be discussed here, considering that it is heavily unlikely we will cover that period. Even if we could complete models so fast - and here I do not only mean finalizing meshes, but completing it textures, POF data, and tables - we would have to consider that the public as a whole know. I would assume SWC's players to know the very basics of SW (What's and X-wing? Who do they normally shoot? etc.) This does not assume any knowledge of the Yuuzhan Vong, and what happened decades after the movies.
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One time admirer and lurker, first time poster and still admiring! ;)
Here's my observation as to what's "canon" enough to be in any Star Wars game that's set during the Original Trilogy:
(1) Any of the ships that actually appeared in the first three films
(2) Any of the ships from the prequel films
And anything beyond that is pure speculation due to the fact that the Lucas Empire has grown so mammoth that its only means of survival is to satiate itself, endlessly I might add, on money. And they will do anything, and I do mean anything to latch their leach-like mouths on us fanboys' wallets.
Words such as "continuity," "artistic expression," and "character development" are flat out the window of a 200 story skyscraper when it comes to the empty suits that guide this behemoth. And that's the cold, hard, and most importantly of all, easily demonstrated truth.
"Retconning" is a term of pure corporate propaganda. And the overwhelming majority of the time, the EU's retcons are so pathetically awkward that it would be far easier to read an editorial blurb at the start of every chapter that reads "Odds are significantly high that events detailed here will be made meaningless later..."
The "sloppiness" of such "mistakes" is not genuinely accidental, but rather perfectly predictable when one reflects a little on the system that produces it. I fell for it for a while too, but have come to see it for what it is, and I've freed myself from the ravenous cash register that the EU is.
That said, it seems implausible to me that anyone can somehow pretend that the Prequels, and all of their content "didn't" happen. They can wish to banish them from history, but billions of current/future dollars will prove otherwise.
For myself, the Prequel ships should be included to some degree, however marginal, in this total conversion of the FS2 engine. As has been stated in an earlier post, the Republic color schemes on the fleets of vessels was quickly done away with, and it seems more than reasonable to expect to see them serving in some capacity in the Original Trilogy. Just because they weren't in the OT films does not mean they somehow weren't in that universe.
It never fails to boggle my mind how quickly fans of the completely cliche'd Thrawn Trilogy race to defend the creation of a non-cinemized Zahn craft as being more "canon" than ships that have actually been on screen. Such individuals epitomize George Orwell's definition of "doublespeak" and "doublethink." :rolleyes:
The majority of the Prequel ships could easily be stuck in backwater/light duties, and be present in low numbers. Fighter craft, which tend to have a much shorter lifespan than a capital ship, could be used quite convincingly as pirate ships, mercenary units, and whatnot. They could even be doctored up with customized paint schemes, or (even more believably in my opinion) graffiti. Capital ships could be handled in a similar fashion, although due to their enormous costs, it seems to me that they'd be less likely to get a new paint job. Certainly, their weaponry and systems would be swapped out for others, and these different systems wouldn't necessarily be superior to what we've seen in the films; they could be cannibalized from even older or inferior ships.
The point is that the Prequel ships can be used, and would certainly add more flavor and character to the game. And without question in my mind, increase the likelihood of the mod being downloaded, because in spite of all of the badmouthing of the Prequels that goes on, there are far more people who enjoyed them enough not to let the "canon technobabble" bother them in the least. They would appreciate to see these ships, however briefly, in the game.
:)
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Bravo, very nice.
That's some first post, dude, and I agree 99%.
(That last one percent of for the Legacy of the Force books, which so far have been actually decent.)
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Just as a short point on your post there, I'd like to note that we're not holding up any of the expanded universe as a higher canon than that of the movies, the movies are canon, the EU is semi canon. Now that we've got that out of the way...
Our choice to include more EU stuff than prequel stuff (Note that we have not ruled out prequel ships, just merely aren't focusing on them right now) is based mainly on creating a playable shipset. Let's perhaps look a freespace 2 as a game where there were just enough ships of each size and type, Terran ships for point of example:
Light Frigate - Fenris
Heavy Frigate - Leviathan
Point Defense Frigate - Aeolus
Light Cruiser - Deimos
Heavy Cruiser - Iceni
Line Battleship - Orion
Command and Control Carrier - Hecate
Super Battleship - Colossus
Now how about the Republic/Empire from star wars that we've seen on screen?
Light Frigate
Heavy Frigate
Point Defense Frigate
Light Cruiser
Heavy Cruiser
Line Battleship - Imperial I and II Class Star Destroyers
Command and Control Carrier - Venator Class Star Destroyer
Super Battleship - Executor Class Star Dreadnought
Other than that all we've seen from the movies is the acclamator, which is a troop transport. Doesn't leave us much of a shipset for creating missions, does it? So we've added ships from the EU that fill those roles, to give mission variety.
We're not saying that no prequel ships will be in the game, in fact if you'll look at our shipset page you'll even see one or two on there for now.
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You're also missing the fact, that the Thrawn books came before any of the prequel films and were heavily cannibalized.
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One time admirer and lurker, first time poster and still admiring! ;)
Here's my observation as to what's "canon" enough to be in any Star Wars game that's set during the Original Trilogy:
(1) Any of the ships that actually appeared in the first three films
(2) Any of the ships from the prequel films
And anything beyond that is pure speculation due to the fact that the Lucas Empire has grown so mammoth that its only means of survival is to satiate itself, endlessly I might add, on money. And they will do anything, and I do mean anything to latch their leach-like mouths on us fanboys' wallets.
Words such as "continuity," "artistic expression," and "character development" are flat out the window of a 200 story skyscraper when it comes to the empty suits that guide this behemoth. And that's the cold, hard, and most importantly of all, easily demonstrated truth.
"Retconning" is a term of pure corporate propaganda. And the overwhelming majority of the time, the EU's retcons are so pathetically awkward that it would be far easier to read an editorial blurb at the start of every chapter that reads "Odds are significantly high that events detailed here will be made meaningless later..."
The "sloppiness" of such "mistakes" is not genuinely accidental, but rather perfectly predictable when one reflects a little on the system that produces it. I fell for it for a while too, but have come to see it for what it is, and I've freed myself from the ravenous cash register that the EU is.
That said, it seems implausible to me that anyone can somehow pretend that the Prequels, and all of their content "didn't" happen. They can wish to banish them from history, but billions of current/future dollars will prove otherwise.
For myself, the Prequel ships should be included to some degree, however marginal, in this total conversion of the FS2 engine. As has been stated in an earlier post, the Republic color schemes on the fleets of vessels was quickly done away with, and it seems more than reasonable to expect to see them serving in some capacity in the Original Trilogy. Just because they weren't in the OT films does not mean they somehow weren't in that universe.
It never fails to boggle my mind how quickly fans of the completely cliche'd Thrawn Trilogy race to defend the creation of a non-cinemized Zahn craft as being more "canon" than ships that have actually been on screen. Such individuals epitomize George Orwell's definition of "doublespeak" and "doublethink." :rolleyes:
The majority of the Prequel ships could easily be stuck in backwater/light duties, and be present in low numbers. Fighter craft, which tend to have a much shorter lifespan than a capital ship, could be used quite convincingly as pirate ships, mercenary units, and whatnot. They could even be doctored up with customized paint schemes, or (even more believably in my opinion) graffiti. Capital ships could be handled in a similar fashion, although due to their enormous costs, it seems to me that they'd be less likely to get a new paint job. Certainly, their weaponry and systems would be swapped out for others, and these different systems wouldn't necessarily be superior to what we've seen in the films; they could be cannibalized from even older or inferior ships.
The point is that the Prequel ships can be used, and would certainly add more flavor and character to the game. And without question in my mind, increase the likelihood of the mod being downloaded, because in spite of all of the badmouthing of the Prequels that goes on, there are far more people who enjoyed them enough not to let the "canon technobabble" bother them in the least. They would appreciate to see these ships, however briefly, in the game.
:)
:welcomesilver:
I consider the prequels 100% canon, they are made in George Lucas' brain afterall. I don't consider "canon" ships created ad hoc for games based on Star Wars, but there's something to say about this subject.
Usually, when a game based on a film comes out, the team works with the cooperation of the creators of that film. I remember Star Trek: Invasion, full of fighters and warships that can't be found in the series we all know... the plot wasn't ST canon, ok, but the rest could be easily accepted by fans and everything was designed to fit better with the tendencies of the Federation(which are ebsentially pacifist). The Paramount checked it and approved.
George Lucas would never let other people expand his Universe without checking their work and letting the others know about his opinion. Saying "EU" is generalizing. The films don't tell us everything, I know the names of many alien species seen in the films thanks to the EU. In the first film, when Obi Wan and Luke hire Ian, you can see many criminals...but nobody in the film says their names. Thanks to a magazine I know something about them and what they've done. There wasn't enough time to tell their stories in the film, it doesn't mean GL didn't write interesting(and 100% canon) info about them.
Ages ago I played Star Wars: Rebel Assault(or something similar). A game like that isn't canon because of its storyline, it had nothing to do with the OT, games like RA shouldn't be considered at all. Games close to the OT should be welcome, however.
It shouldn't be difficult to verify if EU ships have been somewhat "accepted" by George Lucas: game previews should tell a lot about GL's influence. GL is canon, not only the OT.
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...George Lucas would never let other people expand his Universe without checking their work and letting the others know about his opinion...
That's not entirely true. There are EU works Lucas has never even heard about. Some time ago I read it on Wookiee that he is not even informed of Ben Skywalker's existence, which is not a most recent addition to SW continuity.
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Then bring to the SWC everything he has approved.
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Right but part of the problem is determining what order to do that in, that's a lot of information and ships. We just plan on focusing on the iconic OT ships and then the EU stuff you might have seen near the timeline of our campaign first. Since our campaign isn't set in the NT, and the NT is the only place you ever see or hear of the existence of NT ships, we probably won't be doing a lot of them right off the bat. We may not even get a few of the OT ships done, if we don't need them for a campaign or multiplayer, they might not get done. But there's not many OT ships so I think we'll have most of them done.
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Take BtRL as example, they came out with a demo featuring only a handful of ships. It shouldn't be difficult to get some ships coming from the OT and others coming from the prequels and create two minicampaigns for a Demo.
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Well, I think a good way to put it is simply the stance we've taken for quite a while. If you want more Prequel stuff in the game, go ahead and make it for us, and if it passes muster and is up to the quality we need we'll use it. However, don't tell us to make it for you.
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I don't see how BtRL is an example, they only had one 3 mission campaign, and it's not like they used ships from the old and new series or anything. Our handful of ships is currently not focused on the prequels, as we haven't needed any prequel ships yet.
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Well, I think a good way to put it is simply the stance we've taken for quite a while. If you want more Prequel stuff in the game, go ahead and make it for us, and if it passes muster and is up to the quality we need we'll use it. However, don't tell us to make it for you.
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I can't model... :blah:
I don't see how BtRL is an example, they only had one 3 mission campaign, and it's not like they used ships from the old and new series or anything. Our handful of ships is currently not focused on the prequels, as we haven't needed any prequel ships yet.
IMO it would be a good idea to release a demo with a considerable number of ships and a small minicampaign(all from the OT).
Obviously, the decision is up to you ;)
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I can't model... :blah:[/color][/i]
it isn't that hard to learn ya know.
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Let's say that my success in FREDding led me to stay away from modelling :rolleyes:
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I can't model... :blah:
IMO it would be a good idea to release a demo with a considerable number of ships and a small minicampaign(all from the OT).
Obviously, the decision is up to you ;)
Right, the ones of us who can model, mostly are occupied with non-prequel ships. I don't like telling other people to do something if they want it done, but I can say that none of the people currently doing, are probably doing it any time soon, due to them doing other stuff already.
And I do hope to have a considerable number of ships, even if it's just small craft for now. With the activity spike that seems to be building up that may be possible sooner than I expected. Time will tell.
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Then what about the demo...?
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Hopefully we'll have some form of demo campaign or mini campaign, we have ideas for both, but our idea man has been gone for a while. We may have to pass that torch to someone else, or release without a campaign, just some single missions and some really good multiplayer. But who needs a campaign, I mean if Sins can do it why can't we? :)
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A 5-mission minicampaign isn't any hard to FRED as long as we have a definite plotline and all ships working as they should. So far we have neither. :P
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Hopefully we'll have some form of demo campaign or mini campaign, we have ideas for both, but our idea man has been gone for a while. We may have to pass that torch to someone else, or release without a campaign, just some single missions and some really good multiplayer. But who needs a campaign, I mean if Sins can do it why can't we? :)
:rolleyes:
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Andy has ideas for campaign plots........ but the "prelude" mini is set before Yavin, just right before the declaration of open rebellion against the Empire and formation of the Alliance to Restore the Republic. Expect Z-95s and Y-wings as the principal Rebel craft, since X-wings aren't readily available barring the four prototypes locked up on Fresia. I would love to model the Alpha Nimbus V-wing at some point as a "police" craft.
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So lets see, Brand has the T.I.E. Fighter and the Y-Wing, and who has the Z-95...oh right, YOU! So how's it coming? :)
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I'm just hoping that someone, whether on the team or not, takes on the Naboo fighter at some point. Say what you will about Episode 1, or whether or not it really fits into the design aesthetic of the whole universe, but that ship was just cool-looking. I'd imagine you'd be able to create a neat effect with the proper use of env. mapping, too.
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Looks like an ancient fighter :)
*patiently optimistic*
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I have to admit, of all the Prequel craft, the only ones I wouldn't mind seeing are that Naboo fighter, and maybe the Venator. But we still have a lot of ships we'll need more than those. If someone from outside the current staff wanted to model, I'd be glad to help incorporate it into the mod, but we just can't get to those anytime soon ourselves.
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if only the naboo fighter didnt perform like a TIE interceptor while having shields and torpedoes while being a couple decades older than current rebel designs while looking like a flying work of art, it might have been acceptable.
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Naboo Fighters are easy to implement into a Civil War-era campaign. Just feature an escaping Naboo guy from his homeworld - possibly a Rebel agent, or a prominent financial supporter, and have some local resistance militia escort him out of the system.
Some Venators could end up in the hands of some pirate/mercenary groups. Let's assume that after the ISD's design was complete, and most Venators were replaced by Imperials, Some Venators were sold instead of scrapped to help finance the construction of the DS.
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if only the naboo fighter didnt perform like a TIE interceptor while having shields and torpedoes while being a couple decades older than current rebel designs while looking like a flying work of art, it might have been acceptable.
Another idea: What if, instead of being quite that amazing, what if it only seemed like it was so fast, manuverable, and armed because everything around it was moving even slower, and the cap ships were smaller? It's a matter of scale, really.
Think about it.
Or: considering that they were primarily royal fighter craft, they were probably hideously expensive; that could justify the performance.
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Actually the trade federation warships were about twice the size of an imperial star destroyer. The real reason is that the person making the prequels had more interest in making money than in the star wars universe making sense.
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The Trade Federation 'Donut' ships aren't warships by default, but are giant transport freighters that were modified for combat later on. Trust me, an the Donut has so many openings that an Imperator would rip it to shreds.
As for the N-1 being more advanced than a TIE Interceptor, please keep in mind that the N-1s were produced in extremely limited numbers to protect Naboo and not intended as a mass-produced fighter. I'm positive that the TIE Interceptors were designed along the philosophy of reasonably cheap and efficient use of technology as opposed to the N-1 which probably incorporated different tech which had similar functions but that were undoubtedly more expensive. Again, considering that the Naboo were only creating a fighter meant to defend their homeworld as well as serve as an ornamental showpiece, they probably didn't mind forking over the credits to create the N-1.
And before anyone points out that the Naboo still shouldn't possess fighters that surpass the best that Imperial tech has to offer, well remember they didn't. Comparing the TIE Interceptor to the N-1 is foolish because they had different philosophies regarding their construction. Comparing the N-1 to say, the TIE Defender, or even the TIE Avenger is a bit more reasonable since all craft were produced in limited quantities and all have similar capabilities (though those two TIEs easily outgun, outmaneuver and outrun the N-1).
Chief, the Z-95 is going to be rebuilt from scratch as well as the Rebel Transport using the existing models as templates or guides. One question I do have regarding the Z-95 is the cockpit. Are there really any sources that should be considered as "canon" since they all generally vary to begin with, or should I just design it based on observations of other Rebel craft (thinking of "antiquating" the X-wing's cockpit design and possibly employ ideas from the A-wing since both have the bubble canopy). The only real clear references that I'm familiar with come straight from the X-wing PC game series.
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It's an EU ship, since that's where it first showed up I'd use those types of refs first. If you mean whether or not it should look more like this (http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/5/5c/Z95headhunter_negvv.jpg) or more like the bubble one on this (http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/3/39/Z95headhunter_egvv.jpg), I suppose that's up to you, but when we have cockpit meshes, I'd rather have the bubble one myself, for better visibility.
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no I'm talking about interior details.
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Ah well, then yeah, primitive X-Wing stuff sounds good to me :)
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I think you all are forgetting two very important movies in terms of Star Wars continuity . . .
the Ewok Adventures!!!!! :D :D :D
There's one pretty cool looking civilian craft in Battle of Endor that can be brought into the game. With some open air laser turrets, haha. Plus one crappy looking family transport.
I tried to score some screen caps but for some reason the DVD shows up blank when I hit print screen. Wierd.
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It's probably using the video overlay to play the DVD, you won't get any video if that's the case. You'd need some sort of special software to capture it, or change the rendering mode.
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try running your DVD in VLC player and taking snapshots from that.
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Okay, VLC did the trick. Not my favourite program, but it has it uses. I'll post the pics here, since no one seems to have Battle for Endor *gasp*. Feel free to move/delete as necessary.
Family Transport (which looks remarkably like the storm trooper variety) - described as a "star cruiser" in the first movie Caravan of Courage
(http://members.shaw.ca/pbcbrown/pics/familytrans.jpg)
(http://members.shaw.ca/pbcbrown/pics/familytrans2.jpg)
Old Guy's Transport
I think it's sorta cool anyway. I dunno if it has any official designation.
(http://members.shaw.ca/pbcbrown/pics/civie1.jpg)
(http://members.shaw.ca/pbcbrown/pics/civie2.jpg)
(http://members.shaw.ca/pbcbrown/pics/civie3.jpg)
(http://members.shaw.ca/pbcbrown/pics/civie4.jpg)
(http://members.shaw.ca/pbcbrown/pics/civie5.jpg)
(http://members.shaw.ca/pbcbrown/pics/civie6.jpg)
(http://members.shaw.ca/pbcbrown/pics/civie7.jpg)
(http://members.shaw.ca/pbcbrown/pics/civie8.jpg)
(http://members.shaw.ca/pbcbrown/pics/civie9.jpg)
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I think that one or both of those are in the EGVV actually.
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I think that one or both of those are in the EGVV actually.
Hmmn, just flipped through mine and didn't see either one . . .unless there's some expanded edition of the book I don't know about. I think the Ewok movies are pretty ignored as far as Star Wars fans go. Most people aren't particular fond of their first appearance, they're not going to be too interested in the 2nd and 3rd appearances :). They're also more fantasy than sci-fi . . with some laser blasters thrown in.
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Maybe it's a different family transport then. Looked kind of like one I remember in it. I guess it was the Skywalkers' though.
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Maybe it's a different family transport then. Looked kind of like one I remember in it. I guess it was the Skywalkers' though.
I think the one you're thinking of was the Lars family's landspeeder, which wasn't a whole lot bigger than Luke's speeder if I remember correctly.
(Also, I feel like I'm one of the very few Star Wars fans who thought that the Ewoks kicked total ass in ROTJ. :p)
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Maybe it's a different family transport then. Looked kind of like one I remember in it. I guess it was the Skywalkers' though.
I think the one you're thinking of was the Lars family's landspeeder, which wasn't a whole lot bigger than Luke's speeder if I remember correctly.
(Also, I feel like I'm one of the very few Star Wars fans who thought that the Ewoks kicked total ass in ROTJ. :p)
Yeah both of the ships pictured are interstellar craft, not land based vehicles. Top one's basically a family bus or something. Mini-van.
(I liked the Ewoks and ROTJ as a whole as well. For a bunch of dumb little bears they've got more brains than the stupid wookies. Watching RotS the wookies are on the beach all crouched down behind some 4 feet steel wall and then when the droid hovertanks come at them they all jump out onto the beach, do some battle cry and start firing from the hip. The military tactics in the prequel trilogy are non-existent. Bunch of clone troopers walking around shooting from the hip, bunch of droids walking in the opposite direction doing the same thing. Basically every battle is two mobs of complete idiots firing/charging at eachother with blasters. At least the defenders at Hoth had the sense to stay in their damn trench. Or the strormtroopers, ewoks and reb commandos making use of cover in RotJ).
Incidentally . . of the prequels I also prefer the Phantom Menace. :nervous: At least the ground battle has some mild sense of tactics (plus it's also got Liam Neeson and the cool Darth Maul battle). As for Jar Jar, at least his ****ty dialogue isn't meant to be serious ("Hold me like you did on Naboo!"). I'd rather him a talking moron than a silent, occasional-cameo moron.
But . . . don't really want to get offtopic.
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Oh God I want to shoot you...
All I can hear in my head is Wicket saying, "Star Cruiser CRASH!" over and over...
Thanks...
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Oh God I want to shoot you...
All I can hear in my head is Wicket saying, "Star Cruiser CRASH!" over and over...
Thanks...
No problem.
The best is the second movie and the little girl who's family gets wiped out and 10 minutes later she's dancing around the forest with Wicket (oh, and Wicket's friends are all in mortal danger too having be captured by savages). It's good to know they care.
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I've always loved the design of the old guy's transport in the Ewok movies. The engine section is really cool.
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wait a sec. the ewok adventures are canon but the prequels aren't?
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The prequels are canon
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as much as i absolutely loathe admitting it.
i'll be creating a new term: Tura-Canon
Tura-Canon for Star Wars goes from just before the events of A New Hope (recalling a story about a younger Ysanne Isard, Garm Bel-Iblis and Corran Horn's father) and goes to the end of Zahn's Survivors Quest
in there, the Black Fleet Crisis needs a bit of ret-conning when it comes to ship sizes and fleet strengths, but other than that, everything in that group is nicely internally consistent.
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Don't worry, some of us don't consider Black Fleet Crisis, Children of the Jedi, Darksaber, Jedi Academy Trilogy, Corellian Trilogy, anything to do with the Vong, Young Jedi Knights, The Crystal Star, Truce at Bakura canon at all. At best, there are some things in there that are okay, but nothing worth rehashing.
No, canon in regards to the original trilogy/GCW era involves TIE Fighter, Shadows of the Empire, Rogue Squadron books(despite the absolutely ridiculous idea that Wedge Antilles and company could assemble a battle fleet in a month or so to take on Ysanne Isard's starfleet where it took the Rebel Alliance years to even come close to forming a credible force that could engage the Executer's fleet, let alone the 50 some odd Star Destroyers at Endor), Thrawn's trilogy (Hand of Thrawn duology I'm still out on, I would have strongly preferred had Luke and Mara not bumbled around and accidentally kill Thrawn's clone), and some of the Tales series. Some of the comics are pretty cool. Kevin J. Anderson's Tales of the Jedi comics are far better than his books), The Courtship of Princess Leia (more to the effect of introducing us to Warlord Zsinj), and Dark Empire-to-Empire's End comics. Some of the X-wing and X-wing Alliance stuff need serious retconning to fit properly with the rest of the lore.
And while I do agree that the prequels are canon, did anyone honestly think that was at all close to what the original speculation of the Clone Wars entailed before Episodes II and III came out? I don't ever remember hearing anything about a droid army. I thought that the Republic's clone army just went mad and began a revolt. Never did I think it had anything to do with Darth Sidious, the Sith in general or the origins of Darth Vader. I just had assumed that happened a few years after.
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Rogue Squadron books(despite the absolutely ridiculous idea that Wedge Antilles and company could assemble a battle fleet in a month or so to take on Ysanne Isard's starfleet where it took the Rebel Alliance years to even come close to forming a credible force that could engage the Executer's fleet, let alone the 50 some odd Star Destroyers at Endor)
It's not as if they were buying a bunch of capitol ships. They found a Thranta-class frigate, they bribed the captain of one star destroyer, bluffed another, and bought a bunch of freighters. Plus they did have the funding of Tycho's set-up money. 10 million credits goes a long way when an individual X-Wing apparently costs 150,000 credits brand new
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It's not as if they were buying a bunch of capitol ships. They found a Thranta-class frigate, they bribed the captain of one star destroyer, bluffed another, and bought a bunch of freighters. Plus they did have the funding of Tycho's set-up money. 10 million credits goes a long way when an individual X-Wing apparently costs 150,000 credits brand new
Yeah, with the help of $10 mil, it seemed perfectly reasonable to me.
Besides, those freighters probably wouldn't have stood a chance at Yavin or Endor.
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They were only effective because they were hidden in plain sight, once the Lusankya caught on those freighters died very fast.
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Our choice to include more EU stuff than prequel stuff (Note that we have not ruled out prequel ships, just merely aren't focusing on them right now) is based mainly on creating a playable shipset. Let's perhaps look a freespace 2 as a game where there were just enough ships of each size and type.
Now how about the Republic/Empire from star wars that we've seen on screen? Other than that all we've seen from the movies is the acclamator, which is a troop transport. Doesn't leave us much of a shipset for creating missions, does it? So we've added ships from the EU that fill those roles, to give mission variety.
This makes very good sense to me :)
The movies only really give snapshots of the Star Wars universe, so it seems highly probable that there would have been lots of other ships in use at the time that were not seen in the movies. I think when adding such a ship the important criteria is "does it make sense". I'd take the Assault Gunboat as an example.
Although the Assault Gunboat is entirely non canon to my knowledge, only really appearing in the games. To me it "fits in", it makes sense.
The empire's typical doctrine tended to favour non-hyperspace capable fighters supported by capital craft. However, if this was all they had it could be quite limiting. Particularly for performing reconnaissance, and hit and fade attacks. The fact that no canon starfighter includes ion-cannons would also suggest the existence of a specialist ship for the task. So it's logical that in steps the Assault Gunboat, hyperdrive capable and fitted with ion-canons, fleets would include a small number of them for these specialised tasks.
It also makes sense you'd never see them in the films, they're specialist craft and are available in limited numbers. All the battles seen in the movies are big "pitched" battles. No reconnaissance needed, no point disabling anything, definitely not a hit and fade attack for the empire. For those kind of battles TIEs would be the much better choice, and indeed that's what we see.
In contrast I was never fond of the whole "TIE Defender" or "Missile Boat" stuff. The TIE Avenger made sense, if they empire put in a lot of resources it could make some awesome ships in very limited numbers. However, it seemed remarkably unlikely to me that having built the already, expensive and incredibly effective TIE Avenger that the empire would instantly poor even more money to develop an even more insanely expensive ship, the TIE Defender. The Avenger already outclassed anything any rebels or pirates could throw at the empire, and it was already too expensive to be widely used. Also from a technical point of view, it seemed unlikely that they could build a ship that was simply better than the TIE Avenger in almost every single way, given how the Avenger was itself far more powerful than any rebel ship.
So yes, canon ships where possible. If an important role goes unfilled then bring in some EU ships that make sense :)
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Actually I find the TIE Advanced (Or TIE Avenger to some) making more sense than the Gunboat. I always felt like the Assault Gunboat looked and felt too much like a rebel fighter. We're leaving that one out for now due simply to the aesthetics of it. We want the Empire to stick with TIEs for now. So the Avenger will probably go in a lot faster than the gunboat (If it ever does go in)
I'm fighting hard to keep both the Defender and the Missile boat out completely. They're just too frakkin uber (according to the Wookie, the TIE Defender is better than any other fighter by quite a bit, except the Avenger is slightly more manueverable. The Defender's shields are supposedly 4 times more powerful than any rebel fighter as well)
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I'm fighting hard to keep both the Defender and the Missile boat out completely. They're just too frakkin uber (according to the Wookie, the TIE Defender is better than any other fighter by quite a bit, except the Avenger is slightly more manueverable. The Defender's shields are supposedly 4 times more powerful than any rebel fighter as well)
Yeah both of those fighters are just big pieces of cheese. One of the last missions in the second Tie Fighter expansion had the player in the missile boat single handidly taking out a rebel fleet. It was just dumb, quite honestly. I remember back when X-wing was out, it was like "B-Wing has 12 proton torpedoes! wowsa that's uber!" but the B-Wing is a lame duck compared to the Missile Boat. Whoever made Tie Fighter got a little carried away imo.
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Agreed, it just got too rediculous.
So for now we're sticking the Imperials to their general aesthetic of light, small, fast and maneuverable fighters usually unshielded.
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I always felt like the Assault Gunboat looked and felt too much like a rebel fighter. We're leaving that one out for now due simply to the aesthetics of it.
Yeah I can see that aesthetically it's not ideal. Although I guess if it was going to have shields and hyperdrive then it would have to be slower and less maneuverable than a TIE ... I guess you could argue that in terms of appearence it looks quite a lot like the Lambda class shuttle, which was used quite extensively by the empire.
The reason it was introduced in the games, I suspect, is that otherwise the empire has no starfighter armed with ion cannons. That doesn't make a lot of sense given how often the empire would want to capture ships to interrogate the occupants ...
All in all I liked the Gunboat in TIE Fighter. It made for lots of interesting missions. Capture missions, reconnaissance, attacks from hyperspace - none of these would have been as fun without the abilities given by the gunboat :) Still I can also understand the desire to stick to the core TIEs, they are the "iconic" ships of the empire after all :)
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...I'm fighting hard to keep both the Defender and the Missile boat out completely. They're just too frakkin uber (according to the Wookie, the TIE Defender is better than any other fighter by quite a bit, except the Avenger is slightly more manueverable. The Defender's shields are supposedly 4 times more powerful than any rebel fighter as well)
Well, then what of the TIE Defender we already have? It works just fine; it would be a waste to throw it out. Again, I would like to remind you that we mustn't maniacly stick to what is in canon. As much as you have the artistic liberty to make Greeble #34 on the ISD's bridge 88.5m long instead of 89.5, we can permit ourselves to make some other modifications in our tables.
The reason it was introduced in the games, I suspect, is that otherwise the empire has no starfighter armed with ion cannons. That doesn't make a lot of sense given how often the empire would want to capture ships to interrogate the occupants ...
The TIE Bomber is supposed to have ion cannons, so that part is dealt with.
And for capturing: ISDs can do that. They have ion cannons and tractor beams. The first few minutes you ever saw of Star Wars were about the Imperials capturing a vessel. I don't know if tractor beams are possible to do, but ion cannons mounted on a Star Destroyer will certainly do the trick.
All in all I liked the Gunboat in TIE Fighter. It made for lots of interesting missions. Capture missions, reconnaissance, attacks from hyperspace - none of these would have been as fun without the abilities given by the gunboat
Yes, I agree. But the gunboat will have to wait a little, especially taking our priorities into consideration. Until then, you'll have to be satisfied with the old "Star Destroyer drops out of hyperspace and deploys TIEs from its hangar" story.
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The point is that to make the Defender remotely balanced, it would be nothing like it's supposed to be. It would essentially be a Defender in name and appearance only. That's how incredibly broken the info on that thing is. It's one thing to take liberties to fill in the holes, but the defender has too much known info to just say it's 20% as strong as people think it should be. We may eventually have it in the game, but I see no reason anyone would use it in a campaign, or in anything other than Defender only multi player matches.
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...I'm fighting hard to keep both the Defender and the Missile boat out completely. They're just too frakkin uber (according to the Wookie, the TIE Defender is better than any other fighter by quite a bit, except the Avenger is slightly more manueverable. The Defender's shields are supposedly 4 times more powerful than any rebel fighter as well)
Well, then what of the TIE Defender we already have? It works just fine; it would be a waste to throw it out. Again, I would like to remind you that we mustn't maniacly stick to what is in canon. As much as you have the artistic liberty to make Greeble #34 on the ISD's bridge 88.5m long instead of 89.5, we can permit ourselves to make some other modifications in our tables.
We don't have a TIE Defender, the mesh in the testing package is just a placeholder
The reason it was introduced in the games, I suspect, is that otherwise the empire has no starfighter armed with ion cannons. That doesn't make a lot of sense given how often the empire would want to capture ships to interrogate the occupants ...
The TIE Bomber is supposed to have ion cannons, so that part is dealt with.
Where the hell did you hear that? The TIE Bomber has no Ion Cannons.
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If you guys put the Stormtrooper transport from X-Wing etcetera in there that'd be some ion cannons for capturing ships (and then later boarding them). Looks a little bit like the Starcruiser from the Ewok movies.
As a possible alternative anyway. If the Imperials require Ion Cannons.
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Gunboats are also Ion equipped, if we were to use them. But I'm sure we'll use what makes the most sense at the time.
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Also note that Ion Cannons are not the only method of capturing a ship. They're merely one way. Note that in the opening scene of Star Wars, even though the ISD is equipped with Ion Cannons, it doesn't use them against the corvette, preferring turbolasers. The neccesity of Ion Cannons is simply an idea purveyed by the X-Wing games, where there are no alternate ways of disabling a ship.
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Also note that Ion Cannons are not the only method of capturing a ship. They're merely one way. Note that in the opening scene of Star Wars, even though the ISD is equipped with Ion Cannons, it doesn't use them against the corvette, preferring turbolasers. The neccesity of Ion Cannons is simply an idea purveyed by the X-Wing games, where there are no alternate ways of disabling a ship.
Buzz droids!
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Buzz droids!
No!
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Also note that Ion Cannons are not the only method of capturing a ship. They're merely one way. Note that in the opening scene of Star Wars, even though the ISD is equipped with Ion Cannons, it doesn't use them against the corvette, preferring turbolasers. The neccesity of Ion Cannons is simply an idea purveyed by the X-Wing games, where there are no alternate ways of disabling a ship.
True, I imagine shooting the engines etc. would work well against capital ships like a corvette, after all they're pretty big targets. Although I'm guessing this wouldn't be quite such a viable tactic against smaller and faster craft, hitting the engines on an escaping shuttle would be hard work :)
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We don't have a TIE Defender, the mesh in the testing package is just a placeholder
Don't tell me you want to remove yet another already completed ship just because it doesn't have the number of polies that you want or you say it's too powerful. It is possible to find a place to it in a campaign, at most there will be fewer other TIEs around for mission balance. Or, missions where you fly in an elite Imperial squadron.
Where the hell did you hear that? The TIE Bomber has no Ion Cannons.
Well, for some reason I remembered reading that on Wookiee. Perhaps it used to be there, but got removed. In Rebellion, T/Bs did have ion cannons, so that could also be a reason of my remembering this.
And stop capitalizing ion cannon already. Neither ion, nor cannon are proper names, neither is the compound "ion cannon."
True, I imagine shooting the engines etc. would work well against capital ships like a corvette, after all they're pretty big targets.
It will be possible, yes, unless the subsystem damage factor of primaries will be severaly reduced from standard FS values.
I'm guessing this wouldn't be quite such a viable tactic against smaller and faster craft, hitting the engines on an escaping shuttle would be hard work
We'll see that as soon as we get the Lambda done. It's possible that you will be able to destroy its engines with primaries (Imperial ships with no ions) before destroying the ship.
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When we restarted this project, it was agreed upon that we're not using any of the old stuff. So yes, we're not using that model.
And the TIE Bomber still does not have Ion Cannons.
And I'll capitalize what I'd like to, grammar policing gets old real fast, thanks, have a good one.
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We'll see that as soon as we get the Lambda done. It's possible that you will be able to destroy its engines with primaries (Imperial ships with no ions) before destroying the ship.
True, are there any (semi-)canon statements on targeting subsystems of smaller craft to disable them?
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We'll see that as soon as we get the Lambda done. It's possible that you will be able to destroy its engines with primaries (Imperial ships with no ions) before destroying the ship.
True, are there any (semi-)canon statements on targeting subsystems of smaller craft to disable them?
Uh, C3PO "They've shut down the reactor. We're done for"
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Uh, C3PO "They've shut down the reactor. We're done for"
Wasn't that the corvette though?
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Uh, C3PO "They've shut down the reactor. We're done for"
Wasn't that the corvette though?
Meh, compared to an ISD it's a smaller craft. It can fit in the darn launch bay after all.
One could argue though, that in the movies no one ever tries to capture any fighters. So why would they need to be capturable in the game? Heck the ISD never fires any ion cannons either.
And why would the Imperials need to capture a rebel fighter anyway? or any small craft? How much intel is the average pilot going to know? We know that engines can be shot, because Luke loses one or more of his in the Trench run. We know that shields can be disabled because Queen Amidala's transport takes a hit against the Trade Blockade in the EP1.
But fully disabled? There's never been the plot in the movies at least, to make that happen. Don't know about any of the books.
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But it's not a fighter or bomber.
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But it's not a fighter or bomber.
Like I said, Luke's fighter took engine damage in the trench run when Vader sent a blast up his tailpipe.
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And why would the Imperials need to capture a rebel fighter anyway? or any small craft?
Well I was more thinking about something the size of a Lambda shuttle, which is only very slightly larger than a fighter and still pretty maneuverable.
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As I recall, in the X-Wing books, a couple of fighter pilots were captured by enemy capital ships (Lusankya? Iron Fist? One of the SSDs, anyway... ), and the enemy ships didn't even need to bother with ions, just a tractor beam lock.
Any plans to implement tractor beams?
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That is difficult with the FS engine.
If I were to do that, I would create a new hidden subsystem that "drags" its target toward the subsystem, then with the "distance < x" SEXP, I would order the targeted ship to enter the hangar. That ideally means that the tractor beam subsystem is somewhere near the hangar. But I'm not a coder, so I don't know how hard it would be to implement.
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Is the FS engine capable of making the player ship fly on its own, as in take the hands of the player off the controls? That might be a solution.
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It's possible, but telling the AI where to go is the problem.
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Is the FS engine capable of making the player ship fly on its own [...] That might be a solution.
Of course then you can't target and destroy the beam emitters before it finishes pulling you in, or manouver laterally to interpose another vessel into the beam, both techniques which (assuming that they could be implemented in the engine) (sorry to take any code guys for granted, I don't know how hard that'd be...) have been used by skilled pilots (read: Han & co.) to somewhat balance the overwhelming game disrupting effect that a "pull-you-in-beam" has.
Edit for clarity
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But fully disabled? There's never been the plot in the movies at least, to make that happen. Don't know about any of the books.
The Avenger was disabled by Echo Base's planet defender ion cannon. It may have been a temporary measure until either the systems were replaced or repaired (or possibly rebooted).
The Ion Cannon serves as a means to short out an enemy craft's electrical systems without doing any actual hull damage. Now as far as WHY you never see the actual space craft use ion cannons (especially the Y-wing and B-wing, if any), I don't know.
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Aren't the Ion Cannon equipped fighters mentioned more heavily in the EU content? I also don't remember much Y-Wing and B-Wing combat from the films, but its been awhile.
As I recall, in the X-Wing books, a couple of fighter pilots were captured by enemy capital ships (Lusankya? Iron Fist? One of the SSDs, anyway... ), and the enemy ships didn't even need to bother with ions, just a tractor beam lock.
Any plans to implement tractor beams?
I think it was during the Lusankya's escape from Coruscant. But IIRC Erisi wanted to be taken over to the ship, as she was the spy. Not necessarily a killing point for the tractor debate, but outside of that and the Tantive's capture in Episode IV, tractos don't show up much in my memory.
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Aren't the Ion Cannon equipped fighters mentioned more heavily in the EU content? I also don't remember much Y-Wing and B-Wing combat from the films, but its been awhile.
The B-wings don't see any combat in the films whatsoever. "All craft pull up!" is the last you ever see of the B-wing at the battle of endor. Meanwhile the Y-Wings in both films just tend to get blown apart. I recall one spiraling into a Star Destroyer in BoE right before one of the cuts to the surface of Endor.
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...
I think it was during the Lusankya's escape from Coruscant. But IIRC Erisi wanted to be taken over to the ship, as she was the spy. Not necessarily a killing point for the tractor debate, but outside of that and the Tantive's capture in Episode IV, tractos don't show up much in my memory.
Just re-read X-Wing Rogue Squadron, there's a moment when Corran gets tractored by an unidentified ship - turns out to be Mirax, but he doesn't know that, and there's a beat where he panics pretty good because he doesn't think he can get away.
Add'nly there's a memorable character moment somewhere in the Thrawn trilogy where {low-ranking bridge officer on the Chimaera} fails to maintain a tractor lock through debris from several detonated missiles - for the life of me I can't see that working in the game, missile debris just wouldn't be big enough to physically block the beam, and the targeting systems aren't going to get hung up on intervening debris without significant reprogramming - and it'd probably be pretty dang clunky script, too - but the way I recall the scene breaking down, the target ship - which I think was the Falcon - would definitely have been captured if it hadn't used said tactics - which seems to at least imply that a capship's beam is more than powerful enough to overwhelm any fighters' drive system handily.
So - the way I see it working is a specialised turret subsystem, in immediate proximity to the hanger, that has a low tracking rate, but that moves the ship towards the beam emitter and damps the lateral velocity of the ship, relative to the turretted vessel. Any experienced code/fred people got input?
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The canon evidence on how ships are captured seems unclear. However, from a gameplay perspective I think ion cannons are much more interesting and fun than just using a capital ship tractor beam. Having the player chase down ships and disable them, then having to guard transports carrying boarding parties, it makes for some really fun missions. A definite alternative to the default "kill everyone" style objectives.
You can make some canonical arguments that ion cannons were the main method of capturing ships:
The first is that ships such as the Y-Wing and B-Wing definitely carried ion cannons, and from the Battle of Hoth it can be seen that the primary effect of an ion cannon is to disable a ships subsystems. So it seems likely that the reason Y-Wings and B-Wings carried ion cannons was to disable enemy ships. Additionally it suggests that ion cannons are the best option for disabling a ship, because if you could do it easily by targeting subsystems with laser cannons then the Y-Wing and B-Wing wouldn't need to equip ion cannons.
Secondly although capturing ships with tractor beams is mentioned in canon perhaps this only possible in quite limited circumstances. The tractor beam might have quite a limited range, or maybe it can only reliably stop targets if the target is in a certain position.
Thirdly the fact that ion cannons don't appear to be used extensively in the Battle of Yavin or the Battle of Hoth could easily be explained by the fact that capturing things in those battles wouldn't have been a high priority. They were full out assaults aimed at total destruction of the enemy, laser canons would have been a better choice for this kind of engagement.
So all in all I like ion cannons. They make some really interesting missions possible :) The canon material seems to be ambiguous on the subject, so personally I think it makes sense to chose an interpretation that makes a good game :)
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As far as player-controlled craft go, I agree completely that Ions are fun, effective, and an all-around good fighter-tool for disabling craft.
However, all of your canonical arguments could just as easily cover tractor-beams as well - in terms of film canon (cannons!) we see a tractor beam used to capture a ship once - and that's the Falcon (admittedly, by the DSI, with it's planet-sized reactor core & such, but still...), and an ion cannon used to disable - but _not_ capture a ship once, at Hoth - and that one's planetside too, possibly using the same huge generator that powered the Hoth energy shield.
This would seem to suggest to me that both techniques are inefficient at best in terms of energy expended per vessel disabled, and that at best, several hits on an opponent of similar size (fighter to fighter, capship to unshielded capship, death star to death star... (Okay, side note, someone needs to do an accurate Death Star I model so I can set up a DS vs DS battle...))
Assuming such inefficiency is the case, as I'm going to do here for the heck of it, we could be seeing the reason that the ISD was pursuing the Corvette with limited turbolaser fire rather than ion cannons.
Or maybe they just didn't want to scramble the data before they captured the ship so they'd know they had the right data files...
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As far as player-controlled craft go, I agree completely that Ions are fun, effective, and an all-around good fighter-tool for disabling craft.
However, all of your canonical arguments could just as easily cover tractor-beams as well - in terms of film canon (cannons!) we see a tractor beam used to capture a ship once - and that's the Falcon (admittedly, by the DSI, with it's planet-sized reactor core & such, but still...), and an ion cannon used to disable - but _not_ capture a ship once, at Hoth - and that one's planetside too, possibly using the same huge generator that powered the Hoth energy shield.
That's not accurate.
During Lando and Leia's escape from Cloud City the SSD also is readying its tractor beam to capture the Falcon as well.
It should be noted, that most of the time, the primary pursuers of the Falcon are ISDs. In EpIV, two ISDs are on intercept against the Falcon over Tatooine. In Empire, at least 3 ISDs (And a handful of TIEs) pursue the Falcon (remember two of them collide with one splitting hte other two while the Falcon dives "downward"). Later of course, the entire fleet pursues the falcon into the Asteroid field.
Granted, these are all versus the Falcon rather than X-Wings and the like. But in the Battle of Hoth Endor, the Falcon was moving fast enough to chase down Interceptors and the like. So it's not improbable that if the Empire wants a ship captured, they're simply use an ISD to tow it in. Rather than using a craft to first disable it.
That's the Rebel's schtik.
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In support of the idea of using ion cannons to disable enemy ships, the Star Wars Technical Journal has the following to say about the Y-wing:
Until the recent advent of the B-wing fighter, the Y-wing was the only attack craft available to the Rebel Forces that carried an ion cannon system. Unlike conventional laser or blaster weapons, which damage or destroy the target upon which they are fired, ion weapons merely interfere with the conductive ability of electrical systems, thus paralyzing enemy vessels by robbing them of their operating power. This advantage allowed early, needful Rebel strike groups to disable Imperial cargo freighters without damaging either their drive systems or their contents. Many Imperial hand-weapons fell to the Rebel forces in this manner, as did such essentials as shielding systems, droids, guidance systems, repulsor crafts, and communications equipment.
Not exactly film canon, but it was printed in a "non-fiction" book that had the blessing of Lucasfilm, albeit before the prequels arrived. Regarding tractor beams, the impression I have received is that only the largest vessels have them, and that, while they may be used to capture enemy ships, that is not their only use—perhaps not even their primary use. They are normally located near docking bays, and are used to guide spacecraft into the bay. That may be a useful function, even when the spacecraft are friendly.
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In support of the idea of using ion cannons to disable enemy ships, the Star Wars Technical Journal has the following to say about the Y-wing:
Until the recent advent of the B-wing fighter, the Y-wing was the only attack craft available to the Rebel Forces that carried an ion cannon system. Unlike conventional laser or blaster weapons, which damage or destroy the target upon which they are fired, ion weapons merely interfere with the conductive ability of electrical systems, thus paralyzing enemy vessels by robbing them of their operating power. This advantage allowed early, needful Rebel strike groups to disable Imperial cargo freighters without damaging either their drive systems or their contents. Many Imperial hand-weapons fell to the Rebel forces in this manner, as did such essentials as shielding systems, droids, guidance systems, repulsor crafts, and communications equipment.
Not exactly film canon, but it was printed in a "non-fiction" book that had the blessing of Lucasfilm, albeit before the prequels arrived. Regarding tractor beams, the impression I have received is that only the largest vessels have them, and that, while they may be used to capture enemy ships, that is not their only use—perhaps not even their primary use. They are normally located near docking bays, and are used to guide spacecraft into the bay. That may be a useful function, even when the spacecraft are friendly.
In Empire at War tractor beams were used for pinning smaller ships in place while star destroyers could easily shoot at them. Though that game was a bit of a waste of potential, and the expansion was even worse, adding a completely none cannon faction and the SSD was pathetically easy to take down. :nervous:
While tractor beams seem to be used in the films over Ion cannons I think Ion cannons will work for this game much better, it will give the player the feeling of a more important role in capture operations and stuff like that.
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When we restarted this project, it was agreed upon that we're not using any of the old stuff.
Guess that means we wont see:
this (http://swc.hard-light.net/shipdb.php?ship=Empire/Beta_ETR-3_Escort_Transport)
this (http://swc.hard-light.net/shipdb.php?ship=Empire/Delta_DX-9_Stormtrooper_Transport)
this (http://swc.hard-light.net/shipdb.php?ship=Empire/Gamma_ATR-6_Assault_Transport)
this (http://swc.hard-light.net/shipdb.php?ship=Independent/BFF-1_Bulk_Freighter)
this (http://swc.hard-light.net/shipdb.php?ship=Independent/Muurian_Transport)
this (http://swc.hard-light.net/shipdb.php?ship=Independent/R-41_Starchaser)
this (http://swc.hard-light.net/shipdb.php?ship=Independent/Y-4_Raptor-class_Transport)
this (http://swc.fs2downloads.com/sshot.php?subdir=Capships/Star_Destroyers/Venator/)
this (http://swc.fs2downloads.com/sshot.php?subdir=Support_Trans/Xiytiar/)
or
this (http://swc.fs2downloads.com/sshot.php?subdir=Support_Trans/Platform_Type_B/)
If I am wrong, then horray, If I am right then I am sure Akalabeth Angel was right when he said people may make their own ships like with that Babylon mod, so someone else might make them.
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Most of those are Tempest's models, and we won't be using them due to problems with the models themselves. Those are pretty much all post-restart, but they're for the most part unconvertable.
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So all of Tempest's work was for nothing?
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Unfortunately it would seem so. I haven't looked at it myself much, but from what I've been told it's pretty much completely unconvertable.
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No it's all actually quite convertable - I examined a few of them for that a while back. They're just not terribly efficient and definitely not easy to UV map/texture. He used a CAD package, meaning the models are forced to be totally stable volume and geometry wise, but the unfortunate side effect of this is that extruded details that should just be resting on the surface are integrated into it - raising the polycount.
There's nothing unusable about them though. :)
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True VA. I think the unusable part has come from the fact that not even he will UV them, and no one else seems to be able to get through any of them either. So they can be converted, but no one has the patience to fight with them so far. It seems it would be faster for someone to redo them in Max/Blender, and then UV them themselves.
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No it's all actually quite convertable - I examined a few of them for that a while back. They're just not terribly efficient and definitely not easy to UV map/texture. He used a CAD package, meaning the models are forced to be totally stable volume and geometry wise, but the unfortunate side effect of this is that extruded details that should just be resting on the surface are integrated into it - raising the polycount.
There's nothing unusable about them though. :)
I hope so, he was the one who made the Nebulon B, Lancer and the Dreadnaught, you guys have made it clear that you want those.
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Ah, well I stand corrected then. Just some miscommunication.
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Aside from that though, as good as some of them look, Brand and myself feel that many are lacking an attention to detail and seem rushed. They'd be out of place next to some of the other stuff we'll have. That doesn't apply to all of them, but it does cover the majority of the ones which were in the movies.
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The other category of models we see there is ones which appeared only in games. What's the problem with this? Well, unfortunately with their first appearances being high polygonal models, there's not a lot of room for detail in them without drastically changing them from their source. If one attempts to model them and add some detail, the basic structure still looks out of place against those of the models used in the movies and other expanded universe works. So with a universe as big as Star Wars, we can afford to look at some other sources for transports than those used solely in the games, ones with higher quality sources to base the model on.
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Well, I reckon there are a few game models that could probably work out decently since there were some high res images created. The Stormtrooper Transport had a high res model for an X-wing vs. TIE Fighter: Balance of Power cutscene, and The Krytos Trap, written by Stackpole had an XQ-series platform space installation on its cover. With that said, there are a few ships that never really felt appropriate in the Star Wars universe, at least to me, such as the R-41 Starchaser.
One can debate whether we really need the Stormtrooper Transport at the moment since there are essentially two movie craft that fulfill that role and they are the Sentinel-class Landing Craft and TIE Shuttle, and the Lambda-class, though that's more of a personnel transport, then boarding craft.
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Keep the Lambda. It's the sexiest shuttle in all known universes. :yes: It has the best engine flyby noise from both trilogies too.
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Speaking of tractor beams . . . someone posted this in the scripting board under grapple guns:
Wow, its been a while sense I've posted...
Anyway, this was talked about before IIRC, you can use a beam weapon with a damage value of 0 and a negative mass, that creates a tractor beam, give it a positive mass and it repels objects.
Im going to read up on this... to see if what I wrote actually works.
Dunno how accurate that is. Forgive me if that was mentioned above, I don't recall seeing.
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Yeah, it's basically similar to the morning star effect, but in reverse. It's something I've considered, but the question is whether a tractor beam should be something that the AI uses on its own or a SEXP controlled action.
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I was certainly not a big fan of the starfighter mounted beam weapons in TF/XvT/XWA. Personally I always just directed the beam weapon full to engines and used the extra speed or recharge power, it was far more effective than actually beaming stuff :)
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Agreed :yes:
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We will not be including Starfighter beam weapons, though some of their effects will be felt in other ways, just not starfighter mounted.
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As in, tractor beams?
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And while I do agree that the prequels are canon, did anyone honestly think that was at all close to what the original speculation of the Clone Wars entailed before Episodes II and III came out? I don't ever remember hearing anything about a droid army. I thought that the Republic's clone army just went mad and began a revolt. Never did I think it had anything to do with Darth Sidious, the Sith in general or the origins of Darth Vader. I just had assumed that happened a few years after.
Sorry for getting OT from the current direction of this discussion (ion cannons/tractor beams), but I'm new to this site and was reading through this entire thread.
I wanted to point out that in at least one book there was a reference to the usage of a droid army in the Clone Wars era. It has been a while since I've read them, but I believe this came up in one of the old Han Solo trilogy books (the ones in the Corporate sector with the droid Blue Max, not the other ones about Han's childhood and stuff). If I remember right there is a "pirate" base or something with battle droids that are referred to as being used during the clone wars.
Of course, I don't have my books available to me (in storage) and I'm the guy who swears that he saw a scene in RotJ after the Sarlacc where Han is arguing with Lando about picking up the droids out of the sand (ya, I'm pretty sure I dreamed that at this point).
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I think the scene you're referring to is where Luke jumps on the skiff and says something like "Let's go, and don't forget the droids." to which Lando just says we're on our way or something.
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Yup, that is the scene, but I remember the scene going something like this:
Luke: Let's go, and don't forget the droids
Lando: They're just droids, this thing is going to blow
Han: We're picking them up. Those droids and I have been through a lot.
Like I said... at this point I'm pretty sure that I just dreamed this. I only remember "seeing" it once, and in all of the special editions, collectors editions, and special features I've never once seen this scene on film. It is just so vividly burned into my memory that I keep looking for it lol.
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It never happened...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9P6zmjtm68&feature=related
at 6:38 or so.
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LOL I agree. I just can't help myself from watching every possible version or special I can to maybe find it... either that or I'm just crazy... and I don't want to accept that I'm crazy just yet =p
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Well keep searching then, but it doesn't exist lol. Trust me, I've watched every version of all the Star Wars movies and it doesn't exist.
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:shaking: Your models are extraordinary... maybe you could make it for me all CGI? :lol:
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I'm not even sure what you're asking... My models are all CGI... that's what 3D models are...
But thank you for the compliment
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maybe he means that he'd like to make sweet sweet love to you :)
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Glad that this is a predominantly text based site.
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LOL! NO!
Sorry... my earlier reply should have read something more like this:
"Your models are extraordinary... maybe you could make it for me so at least it will exist in CGI?"
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I think he wants to render them.
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Concurrence.
Surely there exist SW model sites though?
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I wanted to point out that in at least one book there was a reference to the usage of a droid army in the Clone Wars era. It has been a while since I've read them, but I believe this came up in one of the old Han Solo trilogy books (the ones in the Corporate sector with the droid Blue Max, not the other ones about Han's childhood and stuff). If I remember right there is a "pirate" base or something with battle droids that are referred to as being used during the clone wars.
"Don't forget the droids"
"We're on our way"
I think.
The Han Solo story you refer to is when he is hunting for Xim the Despot's stash of treasure, and there are some of Xim's battle droids unearthed. They are 100's or 1000's of years old I think.
I have to say, the sense I get in the novels before the prequels is that the Republic/Empire was attacked by a clone army gone mad. And that Darth Vader was mostly flesh except for the hand and breathing stuff. Lucas corrected that handily.....
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I dunno about the Vader comment, Obi Wan does mention that he's more machine than man, as well as his immense strength demonstrated. I think the point of the hand was to show, after obi wan's comment, that he really is barely human anymore, and that Luke, in looking down at his own hand, realizes that if he doesn't let go of his anger he'll wind up like Vader himself.
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Today, on "Canon and Continuity" we discuss the changes made to the 2004 DVD release of the original trilogy.
Specifically, I just noticed something that you may or not have seen yet (that is, if you haven't seen it on DVD yet).
1997 Special Edition:
(http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/8753/spirits1997go1.jpg)
2004 DVD Edition:
(http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/3843/spirits2004la8.jpg)
Gratuitous retconning, anyone?
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Solo shoots first
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This would be exactly why I bought the individual limited-edition DVD releases of the OT. All I'm interested in are the "bonus" original theatrical versions. :D
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Solo shoots first
My sentiments exactly. The Anakin swap and the Greedo can't aim changes are probably the two dumbest things in the newer trilogies. I say that plural because not only is the SE version that was in theatres in 1997 different from the OT besides the added footage, the DVD release is still more different in even more annoying ways. I mean come on, they had to credit David Prowse, James Earl Jones, Bob Anderson, _and_ Hayden Christensen for the same guy in one movie. A bit ridiculous me thinks.
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(http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/3843/spirits2004la8.jpg)
Those... Bastards!
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My only problem with this image is that Anakin wasn't wearing such robes when he turned to the dark side.
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Doesn't really matter whether he wore them at the moment he turned or not, he never really wore an outfit like that anyways except as a tiny little kid. Maybe if they'd replaced Sebastian Shaw with Jake Lloyd instead of Hayden Christensen then the outfit would make sense =P
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His height is also wrong. Obi-Wan appears to be the same height as him. And Anakin is supposed to have broader shoulders. Hmmm... nitpicking is good.
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Apparently turning to the Dark side means you get to go back to being young again when you die...
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I'm totally turning to the dark side. It's like Catholicism, do whatever you want your whole life (except unlike Catholicism, you can shoot freakin lightning from your fingertips!), then on your deathbed just say sorry and you're all good!
</Controversial statements>
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1) Dad said that if he would've been Vader, he would have immediately hanged himself. No stupis mask, he is just fine as a Jedi vision or what :).
2) I'd say that nothing is canon what happens (in timeline) after SW6: TJR, since in that movie BOTH the Sith master and the student (or what, dunno the proper English word) has been eradicated, thus the whole conflict what SW was about... ceased.
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I think in general it's very difficult to determine what is canon when talking about a subject which retcons itself every couple of years with a new edition.
I mean for god's sake, it's canon now that the Death Star II was NOT being controlled by the empire, but by IG-88, who was doing what the controllers told him to in preparation for a massive droid revolution.
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Funny enough i happened to look at the wookpedia and i guess Lucas contradicted the ANH quote of the Jedi/Republic being around for a thousand generations in the prequels as a thousand years. This basically screwing the entire great hyperspace war, Sith Wars and all the expanded universe timeline that was based off Obi Wan's comment. Therefore the EU needed to add entire new Jedi/Sith war that caused a reformation for the Republic in order to account for Lucas' goof. At this stage its probably the most sane route to cherry pick the good stuff (The original trilogy, Zhan, Xwing series, etc) and do your best to ignore the crappy parts. :D
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I mean for god's sake, it's canon now that the Death Star II was NOT being controlled by the empire, but by IG-88, who was doing what the controllers told him to in preparation for a massive droid revolution.
You're joking?
So now the safety of the Universe was threatened by another Galaxies version of the Keystone Cops?
It's that beard, it must be, Lucas must have had ingrowing follicles and it's fuzzed up his brain or something...
I agree with StarSlayer, just pick what makes sense and ignore the rest, the important part is making the game good, if everyone else can change the timeline as and when it suits them, then why not you?
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*cough*
http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,58058.0.html
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Canon shmanon. The real Star Wars is the moment when Luke is in the trench about to die, his best friend just got it by literally putting his body between Luke and the man who is trying to kill them all, the Empire is on a genocidal tear and about to destroy the galaxy's last hope, the music is pounding in his ears and then suddenly the bottom drops out and Kenobi tells him that the force which binds the universe together will unmake the death machine. Everything else is footnotes. Awesome footnotes. Sure there's some fridge nuking, but people want to and would have would have forgiven Lucas for the stupid stuff if there were a core to the prequels like there was in the originals. Use the force, FotG.
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Canon shmanon. The real Star Wars is the moment when Luke is in the trench about to die, his best friend just got it by literally putting his body between Luke and the man who is trying to kill them all, the Empire is on a genocidal tear and about to destroy the galaxy's last hope, the music is pounding in his ears and then suddenly the bottom drops out and Kenobi tells him that the force which binds the universe together will unmake the death machine. Everything else is footnotes. Awesome footnotes. Sure there's some fridge nuking, but people want to and would have would have forgiven Lucas for the stupid stuff if there were a core to the prequels like there was in the originals. Use the force, FotG.
Much wisdom, this one has.
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I hate that they changed that final shot in RotJ to replace Sebastian Shaw with Christensen... I really didn't care to see that twit stare through his eyebrows at the camera one more time... Watching the OT used to be about forgetting that miserable performace.
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I hate that they changed that final shot in RotJ to replace Sebastian Shaw with Christensen... I really didn't care to see that twit stare through his eyebrows at the camera one more time... Watching the OT used to be about forgetting that miserable performace.
lol Personally, that didn't really bother me. I was more bothered that all they did was replace Shaw's head with Christensen's. That's why Hayden's build doesn't match the prequels. But yeah, even though I like Hayden, I think it wiser to have left Sebastian alone for ROTJ. :P
Anyway, regarding ion cannons, the main reason why they're so effective in combat is that they actually bypass deflector shields. An ability that's misrepresented in Star Wars games. Typically in Star Wars games, ion cannons deal extra damage to deflector shields rather than ignoring them altogether. And naturally, the power of the ion bolt depends on the type of ion cannon system it's fired from like the B-wing's more powerful SW-7a ion cannons versus the Y-wing's SW-4 ion cannons.
Speaking of deflector shields. They're another element that's been incorrectly portrayed. There are two basic types. Energy shields for deflecting laser fire and particle shields for deflecting physical attacks such as concussion missiles, proton torpedoes, space debris, those pesky asteroids, etc. Most craft are equipped with both types, but neither have been implemented correctly in past games.
You'd think that a company like LA, a division of LFL, who has access to all official Star Wars canon, tech manuals, schematics, etc., could make a great Star Wars game that implements great gameplay mechanics without unnecessarily skewering canon. lol Shame on LA. As much as I love the classic X-wing & T.I.E. Fighter series, they were among the first to absolutely butcher canon. So much for the term simulator.
Aren't the Ion Cannon equipped fighters mentioned more heavily in the EU content? I also don't remember much Y-Wing and B-Wing combat from the films, but its been awhile.
The B-wings don't see any combat in the films whatsoever. "All craft pull up!" is the last you ever see of the B-wing at the battle of endor. Meanwhile the Y-Wings in both films just tend to get blown apart. I recall one spiraling into a Star Destroyer in BoE right before one of the cuts to the surface of Endor.
Okay, I know this is an old post, but I just wanted to put my two cents in. I hope nobody minds. :)
There were only 8 Y-wings that participated in the BOY, only two had working ion cannons. Of course 3 dove into the trench, but according to LFL, the other 5 were engaging the T.I.E.s, turbo lasers, and deflection towers "just off screen". ;)
During the BOE, Y-wings were successfully engaging Imperial forces including T.I.E. Interceptors as there were a couple scenes showing Y-wings pursuing and destroying them. And aside from the one scene you mentioned with the Y-wing getting blasted and slamming into the SD's hull, I can't remember any other scenes showing a Y-wing getting blitzed. I'll have to check it out. lol
Unfortunately, the extensive B-wing scenes planned for ROTJ had to be cut due to the limitations of '80s blue screen technology working against the B-wing's design. I'm still miffed LFL never included CG versions of the original B-wing scenes for the SE releases. :mad:
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You'd think that a company like LA, a division of LFL, who has access to all official Star Wars canon, tech manuals, schematics, etc., could make a great Star Wars game that implements great gameplay mechanics without unnecessarily skewering canon. lol Shame on LA. As much as I love the classic X-wing & T.I.E. Fighter series, they were among the first to absolutely butcher canon. So much for the term simulator.
Ah but you forget that their mantra where videogame creation is concerned is to make it accessible by the largest possible audience (hence no further development of the X-Wing series), where most gamers could care less about the technical specifications... Trigger = cool red beam + enemy surface + cool explosion = satisfied gamer... Sad but true... See Rogue Squadron, Starfighter or Battlefront series.
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You'd think that a company like LA, a division of LFL, who has access to all official Star Wars canon, tech manuals, schematics, etc., could make a great Star Wars game that implements great gameplay mechanics without unnecessarily skewering canon. lol Shame on LA. As much as I love the classic X-wing & T.I.E. Fighter series, they were among the first to absolutely butcher canon. So much for the term simulator.
Ah but you forget that their mantra where videogame creation is concerned is to make it accessible by the largest possible audience (hence no further development of the X-Wing series), where most gamers could care less about the technical specifications... Trigger = cool red beam + enemy surface + cool explosion = satisfied gamer... Sad but true... See Rogue Squadron, Starfighter or Battlefront series.
Yeah, very true. But there's no reason why they couldn't do both. What I have a problem with are the ridiculous unnecessary sacrifices to canon they make in the name of "great" gameplay. They could easily cater to both types of audiences by not doing such. The Battlefront series is a prime example.
...and don't get me started on the Battlefront series. lol :P That's why the First Strike mod exists. lol Thank God for them. :nod:
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I would chalk any other sacrifices of canon or technical accuracy up to the deadlines they work on. Lucasarts is quite reknowned for putting deadlines over quality, that's where we get the unfinished Azzameen story...
Hey look, that Uncle fellow killed half our family... Well, we blew up the Death Star, so obviously that's going to count for enough... Let's leave him alone... End Credits.
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Truly. Especially within these past few years. They've been getting increasingly worse with that. Oh, to think what Rebel Strike could've been! :( I really do have a love/hate relationship with them.
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Well, thankfully we have a reprieve in what the folks here at FotG are looking to accomplish, I wish it was within my abilities to offer some help in some way, as I'd certainly like to contribute. 10 years (in a few weeks it will be to the day Feb 28th) since we've had a worthy Star Wars based space combat simulator is a hell of a long time for us to have to settle with (visually stunning) mediocre arcade entries concerning the universe.
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Actually, I'm pretty sure some Y-Wings got blown up on screen before the first three went into the trenches didn't they? Or maybe those were all X-Wings.
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Those were X-wings.
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TBH, Star Wars canon has undergone so many revisions and so much butchery I won't be surprised if the Master Chief shows up and starts swordfighting with some ancient Sith on Korriban while Lando takes potshots at their energy shields.
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TBH, Star Wars canon has undergone so many revisions and so much butchery I won't be surprised if the Master Chief shows up and starts swordfighting with some ancient Sith on Korriban while Lando takes potshots at their energy shields.
lol Quite true, but the vast majority of revisions (you can even say contradictions) are from EU material. Sure, there may be great writers and game developers out there, but they don't seem to know enough about Star Wars as it exists, to build upon it and not stomp on anything that's already been established in the process. This is in large part LFL's fault for not maintaining a more watchful eye over the years. It ultimately comes down to making the big bucks. And they're business like any other. So long as the cash flow is pouring in, who cares? Right? And now we have one hell of a mess to deal with. lol
At this point, I'm pretty turned off by most EU content anyway. :p It's gotten waaaay out there. :rolleyes: "Holy Crap! I just saw the Enterprise skim the surface of the Executor!!". :lol:
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TBH, Star Wars canon has undergone so many revisions and so much butchery I won't be surprised if the Master Chief shows up and starts swordfighting with some ancient Sith on Korriban while Lando takes potshots at their energy shields.
lol Quite true, but the vast majority of revisions (you can even say contradictions) are from EU material. Sure, there may be great writers and game developers out there, but they don't seem to know enough about Star Wars as it exists, to build upon it and not stomp on anything that's already been established in the process. This is in large part LFL's fault for not maintaining a more watchful eye over the years. It ultimately comes down to making the big bucks. And they're business like any other. So long as the cash flow is pouring in, who cares? Right? And now we have one hell of a mess to deal with. lol
At this point, I'm pretty turned off by most EU content anyway. :p It's gotten waaaay out there. :rolleyes: "Holy Crap! I just saw the Enterprise skim the surface of the Executor!!". :lol:
The EU isn't alone in this. Part of the problem with the prequels is how much they disregarded the already-established (and somewhat plausible) semi-canon of the already existing EU, and not always for the better. Boba Fett shouldn't have been a clone of his dad, and the Force shouldn't be midichlorians. And R2-D2's and C-3PO's origins sucked. Same with Anakin's. You would think a slave boy wouldn't have the time to build both a podracer and a droid because he's a slave, and that a Toydarian would have the good sense not to play games of chance with a Jedi.
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Lucas is without a doubt the most grievous perpetrator of contradicting and well, flat out blowing Star Wars canon.
E.T.'s species is part of Star Wars continuity now?
(http://www.clap.ch/fr/image/archives/cameos/ET%20in%20Star%20Wars.jpg)
I know it's all in good fun to pay tribute to a character of a good friend's, but according to the hardcore fanboys idea of canon, yeah this is now canon because it appeared in the movies.
That's why I appreciate how the Dev's of FotG are approaching it, disregarding the nonsense (Prequels).
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I'm not worried about E.T.'s species being introduced into canon. I can't imagine anything (a novel, even a cartoon) that would elaborate on this species. The authors do know that this is only a nod to Speilberg, nothing more. Perhaps Lucas even tells his authors not to touch this species. He does have the definitive authority over what authors cannot write about. That's why the Darth Plagueis novel had to be cancelled and Yoda's species is not yet even given a name.
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At this point, I'm not concerned about the EU's canon and continuity validity anymore. As far as I'm concerned, if it contradicts the films, than it takes a back seat (Lord knows how many times EU contradicts itself; too many hands in the pot so to speak). Otherwise, it's fine.
Honestly, I really don't see Lucas blowing canon and continuity in they way so many people claim. Yes, there are some canon and continuity problems that need to be explained, but I think the issue stems more from the general dislike of where he took the saga. There are contradictions between the films in the OT after all. lol Thankfully, only a few.
Personally, I rather liked Boba's origin. 3PO's and R2's didn't bother me. And I liked Anakin's as well. I assume Anakin spent many sleepless nights working on 3PO. It was his passion and he was very good at it. lol E.T.'s species was just a cameo and really a non-issue.
Regarding Watto, you gotta remember Qui-gon was a maverick Jedi and it's safe to say that at least the great majority of Jedi would not try to manipulate one's fate as it goes against their code. So I'm certain Watto didn't expect him to do such a thing.
The midichlorians was not the force itself, rather a way to identify it and the potential of the individual. Also, there were certain revelations of the force by the end of the prequel trilogy that actually moves quite nicely into what Yoda and Obi-wan spoke of in the OT.
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At this point, I'm not concerned about the EU's canon and continuity validity anymore. As far as I'm concerned, if it contradicts the films, than it takes a back seat (Lord knows how many times EU contradicts itself; too many hands in the pot so to speak). Otherwise, it's fine.
Honestly, I really don't see Lucas blowing canon and continuity in they way so many people claim. Yes, there are some canon and continuity problems that need to be explained, but I think the issue stems more from the general dislike of where he took the saga. There are contradictions between the films in the OT after all. lol Thankfully, only a few.
Personally, I rather liked Boba's origin. 3PO's and R2's didn't bother me. And I liked Anakin's as well. I assume Anakin spent many sleepless nights working on 3PO. It was his passion and he was very good at it. lol E.T.'s species was just a cameo and really a non-issue.
Regarding Watto, you gotta remember Qui-gon was a maverick Jedi and it's safe to say that at least the great majority of Jedi would not try to manipulate one's fate as it goes against their code. So I'm certain Watto didn't expect him to do such a thing.
The midichlorians was not the force itself, rather a way to identify it and the potential of the individual. Also, there were certain revelations of the force by the end of the prequel trilogy that actually moves quite nicely into what Yoda and Obi-wan spoke of in the OT.
One question. Did you see the prequels or the originals first?
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At this point, I'm not concerned about the EU's canon and continuity validity anymore. As far as I'm concerned, if it contradicts the films, than it takes a back seat (Lord knows how many times EU contradicts itself; too many hands in the pot so to speak). Otherwise, it's fine.
Honestly, I really don't see Lucas blowing canon and continuity in they way so many people claim. Yes, there are some canon and continuity problems that need to be explained, but I think the issue stems more from the general dislike of where he took the saga. There are contradictions between the films in the OT after all. lol Thankfully, only a few.
Personally, I rather liked Boba's origin. 3PO's and R2's didn't bother me. And I liked Anakin's as well. I assume Anakin spent many sleepless nights working on 3PO. It was his passion and he was very good at it. lol E.T.'s species was just a cameo and really a non-issue.
Regarding Watto, you gotta remember Qui-gon was a maverick Jedi and it's safe to say that at least the great majority of Jedi would not try to manipulate one's fate as it goes against their code. So I'm certain Watto didn't expect him to do such a thing.
The midichlorians was not the force itself, rather a way to identify it and the potential of the individual. Also, there were certain revelations of the force by the end of the prequel trilogy that actually moves quite nicely into what Yoda and Obi-wan spoke of in the OT.
One question. Did you see the prequels or the originals first?
lol The OT of course. I first saw ANH (just 'Star Wars' back then, of course) when I was about 3 and that was it. I was hooked ever since. ;) I tend to get this type of reaction because of the way I feel toward the PT, EU, and the OT-SE.
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I'm very new to this community but I'd like to say I agree with Vector Lead.
Except for some on the newest EU content that I have trouble excepting, I think most stuff fits in pretty well. Sure there might be some continuity problems, but I think we can forget those.
If you're making a mod based on Star Wars you might need to be more picky, but most of us are just here to play the game.
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If you're making a mod based on Star Wars you might need to be more picky, but most of us are just here to play the game.
I'm not here to play the Game (which I lost), I'm here to annoy you with source material and canon nitpicking.
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Asshole. I just lost.
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Took me awhile to understand.
But damn, I haven't lost in quite a long time... till you came along. =/
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Regarding Watto, you gotta remember Qui-gon was a maverick Jedi and it's safe to say that at least the great majority of Jedi would not try to manipulate one's fate as it goes against their code. So I'm certain Watto didn't expect him to do such a thing.
I pretty certain most Jedi would manipulate the die. Choices are "Chosen One" or "Chosen One's worthless Force-blind mom". Do you really think Yoda wouldn't manipulate the die roll so the Jedi can have the One prophesied to bring balance to the force? A maverick Jedi would lightsaber Watto, set Anakin and his mom free, and steal the hyperdrive all because slavery is wrong.
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Actually, the points that Sparda and Vector refer to were the basis for a debate I started up on theforce.net forums. Essentially, Qui Gon's motivations for attempting to free Anakin were always rationalized by "The Will of the Force" however, I began to wonder if Qui Gon's tampering of that dice roll off set what the Will of the Force actually entailed. How different would things have been had he not tampered with it?
Basically it's the applying the Uncertainty Principle to that moment. Did Qui Gon's tampering of the game change the outcome of what would have happened had the chance cube favored the outcome he was looking for on it's own?
Basically it was a question of whether there emerged a dichotomy between Qui Gon's faith in the Will of the Force and his faith in The Prophecy of the Chosen One. Fun debate, I forgot to check up on that after awhile.
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Very well said, On_Your_Six. It's something I've pondered as well. Makes one wonder. lol