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Hosted Projects - FS2 Required => Blue Planet => Topic started by: eliex on August 26, 2008, 03:43:38 am

Title: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: eliex on August 26, 2008, 03:43:38 am
<Note: Most evidence comes from The Darkest Hour Preview on Youtube>

I would like your opinion on the possibility that the United Earth Armada has the capability to defeat the GTVA Fleet just to drive them away from Sol.

* The UE doesn't have beam cannons - ok, they've got railguns that can easily destroy beam turrets because of their accuracy.
* The GTVA can't afford to muster their entire forces to Sol as they've got other things to do.
* GTVA pilots might be demoralized after learning the secret super-GTVA fleet had been reduced to shreds.
* Earth has warning that the GTVA is coming.
* The GTVA have to enter the Sol node first, and if the Sol node is blockaded on the other side, the GTVA will be forced to sustain heavy casulties or damage.

If you require another look at The Darkest Hour It's here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3DVvKHq9ss (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3DVvKHq9ssIt's here)  ;)
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Snail on August 26, 2008, 03:48:09 am
Well, if the new GTVA ships (the ones from StratComm's fleet pack that have blue beams) are widespread, then the UE is basically screwed. Those blue beams are teh evil. But from what I've seen it appears the GTVA only deploys older ships like the Perseus and Deimos, so it may be that the new GTVA ships were only in that super fleet.

But either way my money is on the GTVA.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Stormkeeper on August 26, 2008, 05:14:16 am
My money is on the UE, because unless I miss my guess, ALPHA ONE is on their side.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Snail on August 26, 2008, 05:41:35 am
Well it won't have any story if it all goes to plan.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Harbinger of DOOM on August 26, 2008, 06:19:52 am
My money is on the UE, because unless I miss my guess, ALPHA ONE is on their side.
OR...


The UE could get defeated and Alpha 1 goes on to lead a resistance movement.

I love guerrilla warfare, it makes me all giddy and stuff.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Snail on August 26, 2008, 06:21:00 am
Or the Vishnans and Shivans come and kick everyone's ass. :D
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Harbinger of DOOM on August 26, 2008, 06:23:19 am
Bah, I hate Deus Ex Machina.

I wanna see if the Zods come in on the UE side. I mean the Zods seem fairly honorable, so they prolly wouldn't stand for the kind of garbage Command is pulling.




O' course I could be wrong.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Harbinger of DOOM on August 26, 2008, 06:25:37 am
...on the other hand, I haven't played a Zod-killin' campaign in a while.


Who knows? It might satisfy my savage, uncontrollable blood lust for awhile....... :drevil:
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Snail on August 26, 2008, 06:28:57 am
Bah, I hate Deus Ex Machina.
Then go play INFR1.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Harbinger of DOOM on August 26, 2008, 06:39:08 am
Already did. I'm bored, and I need entertainment! :D :p
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Snail on August 26, 2008, 06:47:36 am
Uhh, go play Deus Ex Machina (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Deus_Ex_Machina) again?
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Jeff Vader on August 26, 2008, 07:19:02 am
There may be an unwritten agreement about not mentioning "it" ever again, but...

Go play Second Great War Part 2. Then you'll truly learn to appreciate things like INFR1 and Deus Ex Machina again.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on August 26, 2008, 08:23:14 am
Uhh, go play Deus Ex Machina (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Deus_Ex_Machina) again?

Play JAD:TIT. :p
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: NGTM-1R on August 26, 2008, 08:38:47 pm
If we were including the Vasudans, I would unequivocally say GTVA. But we may not be, so...
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: eliex on August 26, 2008, 11:37:00 pm
The Vasudans are . . . respectful. They represent the values of a middle-ages Knight from my view. I guess that the Vasudans are under the impression that the Terrans react the same way as a Vasudan towards Vasuda Prime. Probably the Vasudans wouldn't help at all or just a minimal force.

So it's virtually Terrans of the GTVA  against the Terrans of Sol?
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: blowfish on August 26, 2008, 11:39:44 pm
There are Vasudans involved

(http://blueplanet.hard-light.net/sobek.jpg)
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: eliex on August 26, 2008, 11:55:11 pm
NICE!!  :D

This is really going to make an interesting turn for the war.


Quote
A loss of communication leads to disaster
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Droid803 on August 27, 2008, 12:44:43 am
There are Vasudans involved

EXTRA BUMPY VASUDANS!

(referring to the overexaggerated bump map)
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: blowfish on August 27, 2008, 12:48:25 am
There are Vasudans involved

EXTRA BUMPY VASUDANS!

(referring to the overexaggerated bump map)

Yeah, that will be improved in the next MVP release.  I've seen screenshots, but can't really find any...

EDIT: And for the record, that's a normal map.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Vidmaster on August 27, 2008, 06:53:25 am
The UE could get defeated and Alpha 1 goes on to lead a resistance movement.

or Alpha 1 DIES at the end of the campaign!

AND YES, THERE IS ALREADY ONE CAMPAIGN WHERE THE PLAYER DIES AT THE END, SO THAT'S DEFINITLY POSSIBLE!!!
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on August 27, 2008, 08:08:11 am
or Alpha 1 DIES at the end of the campaign!

AND YES, THERE IS ALREADY ONE CAMPAIGN WHERE THE PLAYER DIES AT THE END, SO THAT'S DEFINITLY POSSIBLE!!!

Obviously, Goober knew what he was doing back in DEM. :D
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Stormkeeper on August 27, 2008, 12:17:48 pm
or Alpha 1 DIES at the end of the campaign!

AND YES, THERE IS ALREADY ONE CAMPAIGN WHERE THE PLAYER DIES AT THE END, SO THAT'S DEFINITLY POSSIBLE!!!
I think he means the canon campaign...
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on August 27, 2008, 11:29:50 pm
Oh yeah, Apocalypse... :p

I wonder if there will be any subspace wars. ;7
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: eliex on August 28, 2008, 01:18:25 am


Obviously, Goober knew what he was doing back in DEM. :D

BTW has anyone EVER completed the last mission of DEM? My last try was just so close . . .
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on August 28, 2008, 02:23:13 am
No. I gave up on it. :(
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: eliex on August 28, 2008, 03:45:31 am
My last try was so frustrating that I totally gave up on DEM.
Here it is, somehow, I press [1] and the Iceni jumps out. Then elated I press alt-J . . . forgetting to do the break-self-destruct code. So I died.  :(
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on August 28, 2008, 04:57:46 am
That's one reason to dislike Goober: because he makes annoying stuff. :D

Still. I liked parts of it. Now let's get back on topic.

I'm looking at the UEF's Railguns. They have this massive shockwave that makes them pretty dangerous. I've ever tried firing the Colossal Railguns in AoA before, and it can destroy a Lilith in five shots.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: ShadowGorrath on August 28, 2008, 10:41:31 am
But since the UEF has no beams, that means that they couldn't kill a Lucifer in direct combat, like the GTVA could.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: DarthWang on August 28, 2008, 12:25:57 pm
When I played the campaign, in the last mission the Karuna actually reduced the Raynor destroyer (forget the name)'s hull to 63% and did a lot of damage to the other capships before being destroyed
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Titan on August 28, 2008, 07:25:12 pm
Hey, Darius, mind if i use those railgun effects?
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Stormkeeper on August 28, 2008, 08:33:45 pm
I wonder if there will be any subspace wars.
And the subspace node collapses again?
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on August 28, 2008, 10:47:12 pm
The thing about Railguns, however, is that they're energy weapons, so they cannot be shot down, even though they do more damage than Cyclops torpedoes.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Darius on August 29, 2008, 12:32:48 am
When I played the campaign, in the last mission the Karuna actually reduced the Raynor destroyer (forget the name)'s hull to 63% and did a lot of damage to the other capships before being destroyed

That's pretty cool. If there had been a way to FRED it, I would have made it go down fighting this way. Going down kicking butt not because it's overpowered for its size, but because of its fighting spirit.

All effects can be used elsewhere, except for the BTRL effects for which I got permission (the explo3 explosion graphic, and dabrain's purple explosion flare), which you'll need to approach them for.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: eliex on August 29, 2008, 01:36:38 am
The Karuna is definitely a tough nut to crack from what I've gathered. I sure hope the rest of the UE isn't that hard . . .  :nervous:
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on August 29, 2008, 06:34:34 am
The Karuna is definitely a tough nut to crack from what I've gathered. I sure hope the rest of the UE isn't that hard . . .  :nervous:

...actually, I hope that the rest of the UEF is harder to crack, otherwise there won't be much of a war.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: eliex on August 29, 2008, 10:57:59 pm
Guess Earth takes armour over firepower  :)
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Harbinger of DOOM on August 30, 2008, 05:17:03 am
Oh they got firepower too.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Titan on August 30, 2008, 01:19:38 pm
They Karuna can sensably have more armor, speed, and weapons than other ships of it's size due to the fact that it has that spinning thing. It produces a lot of power, a greatly negates the need for artificial gravity, which i would think takes a lot of power.

BTW, Steve-O/ Darius, are you planning to add any more to the federal fighters and bombers?
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Darius on August 31, 2008, 10:42:02 am
Probably not. The list is pretty complete as it is, and the number of weapons Earth gets should generate enough fun for the player and offset the need for more fighters.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: ShadowGorrath on August 31, 2008, 11:44:38 am
What about the Lao Tze?
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on September 01, 2008, 06:04:48 am
Is there a Sun Tzu? :nervous:
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Arkangel on October 02, 2008, 07:31:21 am
That would either have to be an epic destroyer or a carrier
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Colonol Dekker on October 02, 2008, 07:41:43 am
Something tactical, maybe a Fleet / Sector command station. A one-off in high earth orbit.

Like Fort Bear in Starlancer.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Molybdenum on October 05, 2008, 05:43:35 am
Just noticed while watching Darkest Hour. The UEF has AAA beams now?

(http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w9/GutterRunner_2007/beamwtf.jpg)

Sorry fro crap youtube screenshot.

Was this noted by someone else already?
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Darius on October 05, 2008, 06:25:40 am
There's a cruiser up above the frigate shooting at some of your fighters. In that instance the frigate is in the path of some AAA.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Arkangel on October 06, 2008, 03:12:12 am
Now that raises the question; what do the UEF have at their disposal in terms of Anti-fighter weaponry?
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Darius on October 06, 2008, 06:43:06 am
Fast-moving variants of blob turrets mainly. Currently their military philosophy is to spam the area with lots of poorly aimed plasma bits and hope that something hits. No flak (which means the video is a little out of date now).
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Stormkeeper on October 06, 2008, 06:49:03 am
That's a sound philosophy. American style of shooting. Spam enough bullets and hope you hit. :p
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: blowfish on October 06, 2008, 08:38:39 am
Blobs can be pretty dangerous if balanced correctly :nervous:
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: General Battuta on October 06, 2008, 09:12:23 am
That sounds reeeeally pretty.

I hope they still have cluster missiles going everywhere too.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Rick James on October 06, 2008, 10:01:05 am
This discussion brings horrible images to mind.

"Sir! UEF vessels closing fast. They're opening up their anti-fighter weapons!"

"How many turrets are we looking at?"

"It's...OVER NINE THOUSAAAAAAND!"

"WHAT NINE THOUSAND!"
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Stormkeeper on October 06, 2008, 10:28:22 am
Lol. More like ...

GTVA Pilot: "Hah, that ship only has 20 turrets!"
GTVA Pilot2: "INCOMING PROJECTILES!!"
GTVA Pilot: "How many?"
GTVA Pilot2: " Its ... it's ... OVER NINE THOUSAND!!"
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Rodo on October 06, 2008, 10:55:37 am
The best anti fighter gun they should have is the multiple missile launcher or the piranha version from the Deimos.

I would like better to see a faster FASTER and smaller blob gun, or some kind of mounted fast ROF flail gun..
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Stormkeeper on October 06, 2008, 11:18:08 am
A blob with the rate of fire of a minigun, coupled with the accuracy of a sniper rifle, and the damage potential of a meson bomb. :yes:
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Rodo on October 06, 2008, 01:01:26 pm
no meson bombs for the terrans... maybe a variant of the meson bomb but a nuclear version compacted in a missile :O
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: eliex on October 06, 2008, 10:29:33 pm
I think that its fairer in combat; the player can actually fight near capital ships and live while skilfully managing the SGE power board.

EDIT - The player's enemy is the GTVA - with AAAF beams. Just realized.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on October 07, 2008, 02:41:33 am
UEF railguns still do massive splash damage, right?
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: eliex on October 07, 2008, 03:00:46 am
I should think so . . .
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Arkangel on October 07, 2008, 04:57:18 am
If your wingmate cops one of those on the nose of his fighter the whole wing is positively screwed
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Darius on October 07, 2008, 05:43:21 am
To clarify, it's mainly the cruisers and karunas that spit out over nine thousand blobs...larger ships are geared towards anti-capital ship combat and tend to spam less.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on October 07, 2008, 06:59:36 am
Is there some kind of rapid-fire railgun?
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Stormkeeper on October 07, 2008, 08:20:53 am
To clarify, it's mainly the cruisers and karunas that spit out over nine thousand blobs...larger ships are geared towards anti-capital ship combat and tend to spam less.
So basically you have cruisers geared towards point defense, and destroyers geared to focus on anti-cap combat.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on October 07, 2008, 10:55:08 am
So basically you have cruisers geared towards point defense, and destroyers geared to focus on anti-cap combat.

That would make sense if each destroyer has its own escort cruisers, just like the SOSD Olemus of INFR1.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Droid803 on October 07, 2008, 06:21:31 pm
Actually, the Olemus was supposed to be escorted by two destroyers...
Not that any sort  of escort actually showed up during Showdown...
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Stormkeeper on October 07, 2008, 09:48:54 pm
But this means the UEF can't conduct solo strikes like the GTVA. It also means covering the cruisers and such is much much more important.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Droid803 on October 07, 2008, 09:56:27 pm
Karunas do fine.
They can hit corvettes and cruisers, and still manage to spam OVER 9000!!!! blobs.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Excalibur on October 07, 2008, 11:41:35 pm
Is this a completed campaign? (if it even is one) (oops, I should read the title of the forum.) It sounds interesting, though.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: General Battuta on October 07, 2008, 11:46:43 pm
Age of Aquarius is complete, and it's arguably the best Freespace 2 campaign to date.

War in Heaven, the sequel, is still in progress.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: ShadowGorrath on October 08, 2008, 01:36:24 am
The limit of stuff in-game is 1000 though, so :p to your 9000.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Droid803 on October 08, 2008, 06:26:35 pm
Given time it will spew over 9000.
So :P to you too.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Snail on October 09, 2008, 02:54:11 pm
Given time it will spew over 9000.
So :P to you too.
No, then it'll break the game.

First, player's primaries will stop firing, then collision detection fails and then, after a while, the game CTDs.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Droid803 on October 09, 2008, 06:17:01 pm
It won't when 8888 of the projectile's lifetimes have already expired when the remaining ones come out.
It doesn't keep count of things that -used- to be there...at least that's how it should be. Waste of memory to remember # of projectiles that have been in existence.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: eliex on October 09, 2008, 08:37:42 pm
You need the scribes to record your glorious epic mission though!!  :cool:
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Snail on October 10, 2008, 10:45:57 am
It won't when 8888 of the projectile's lifetimes have already expired when the remaining ones come out.
Well there won't be OVER 9000!!! simultaneously.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Arkangel on October 11, 2008, 05:49:46 am
Well Im pretty sure if that were possible your graphics card would cry if you looked at them all
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Snail on October 11, 2008, 05:53:43 am
Well Im pretty sure if that were possible your graphics card would cry if you looked at them all
Blobs aren't that resource intensive unless they use 262144*262144 .tga textures.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on October 11, 2008, 06:31:01 am
It's not the blobs. It's the polygons on a ship.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Stormkeeper on October 11, 2008, 10:20:45 am
We are getting off course topic. Correct your bearings posts!

We've established that UE ships are basically specialists, built exclusively for their roles, e.g cruisers for fighter hunting, destroyers for capital hunting. Correct?
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Darius on October 11, 2008, 10:37:08 am
I wouldn't say built exclusively for these roles but cruisers do fare better against fighters, and destroyers are better against capital ships. Though  they are still outclassed by GTVA equivalents armed with beam cannons and flak.

Frigates are the generalist ship class and are the ones designed for solo operations.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: eliex on October 11, 2008, 04:25:26 pm
Spoiler:
Is the GTVA cap-ship defects going to be used to see whether the Earth ships can use beam weaponry?
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: General Battuta on October 11, 2008, 05:02:47 pm
I hope the Earth ships don't get beams.

Also, Darius, what happened to your badge? Or are badges down forum-wide? I will go attempt to see.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Snail on October 11, 2008, 05:09:14 pm
Nothing wrong that I can see.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Droid803 on October 11, 2008, 05:13:57 pm
Yup. I'm seeing all badges just fine.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: General Battuta on October 11, 2008, 07:41:02 pm
Agreed, they're working. Must've been a brief problem on my end. Silly!
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on October 11, 2008, 09:38:57 pm
Can all UEF fighters work like the GTF Pegasus and GVF Ptah?
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Darius on October 11, 2008, 09:46:33 pm
Not all of them, that would be unbalanced.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: nuone on December 18, 2008, 03:45:08 pm
My money is on the UE, because unless I miss my guess, ALPHA ONE is on their side.

Amen brother.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Titan on December 18, 2008, 03:47:38 pm
:necro:
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: nuone on December 18, 2008, 04:01:33 pm
Damn. I don't know about the rest of you guys, but I was emotionally moved by the events finalizing AoA. I cannot imagine fighting my own kind (Trauma from Halo universe and watching "The Day the Earth Stood Still" perhaps). Even more upsetting, is to imagine that Earth defenses and technology would be that much more inferior to the GTVA's. Earth is the hub of humanity's intellect and greatest assets. Surely after the first Great War, they would have captured Shivan vessels and acquired some of there technology. Nonetheless, I believe War in Heaven will be a worthy successor to AoA. I trust in Darius.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Snail on December 18, 2008, 04:10:36 pm
Earth is the hub of humanity's intellect and greatest assets. Surely after the first Great War, they would have captured Shivan vessels and acquired some of there technology. Nonetheless, I believe War in Heaven will be a worthy successor to AoA. I trust in Darius.
Well, after 32+ years of galactic expansion I assume the GTVA would have grown a lot more than an isolated capital world which was probably reliant on its outlying colony systems. And the Lucifer went boom. No Shivan vessels/technology to aquire.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: nuone on December 18, 2008, 04:38:07 pm
Well, after 32+ years of galactic expansion I assume the GTVA would have grown a lot more than an isolated capital world which was probably reliant on its outlying colony systems. And the Lucifer went boom. No Shivan vessels/technology to aquire.

Far be it for me to change the status quo; yet, if you read about other great epics, Core worlds are normally the most advanced regardless of rebellions. Mind you, the fleet was tasked with locating Earth AND its colonies. There were more colonies and outposts. Even so, as mentioned by a member earlier, Earth is unique because it inherently has a greater abundance of resources than all other colonies combined.

Having said that, be it known, I understand how the situation in War in Heaven makes for a more interesting scenario. We like being the under-dog that triumphs.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: eliex on December 19, 2008, 12:05:22 am
Even so, as mentioned by a member earlier, Earth is unique because it inherently has a greater abundance of resources than all other colonies combined.

  :wtf: I don't get it.  :confused: Earth is one planet. Earth's colonies can reach up to whole systems like Polaris or Capella, or if you mean Jupiter or Mars even so, combined, their resources far exceed Earth's.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: CaptJosh on December 19, 2008, 02:10:16 am
There are the Asteroids, too. But there are asteroid fields and belts in MANY systems.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: -Norbert- on December 19, 2008, 08:48:22 am
Quote
And the Lucifer went boom. No Shivan vessels/technology to aquire.
But it would be logical that before the Sol node(s) collapsed the GTA would sent anything the capture form the Shivans to Sol for study (well... apart from the Taranis and that Azrael that was borded in the cutscene).
Things like the captured containers or the Dragon with which Alpha one scouted out the Eva and Lucifer prior to Vasudas destruction.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on December 19, 2008, 07:31:33 pm
Railguns could even be a supersized Shivan Mega Laser for all we know. ;)
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Droid803 on December 19, 2008, 07:46:49 pm
Railguns could even be a supersized Shivan Mega Laser for all we know. ;)

Funnily, I do use a supersized shivan mega laser (graphic) as a heavy railgun in one of my mods... :nervous:
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: General Battuta on December 19, 2008, 10:44:10 pm
Railguns could even be a supersized Shivan Mega Laser for all we know. ;)

Except for how it's a railgun.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: MarkN on December 20, 2008, 05:58:27 am
The Shivan Mega Laser could be a railgun, for all we know. After all if it is a laser it is breaking several major laws of physics (something to do with the fact that light travels at the speed of light)
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: General Battuta on December 20, 2008, 10:14:07 am
The Shivan Mega Laser could be a railgun, for all we know. After all if it is a laser it is breaking several major laws of physics (something to do with the fact that light travels at the speed of light)

It's a blob laser. They have their own special Freespace physics.

If it is a railgun, it's the pokiest railgun of all time.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: eliex on December 20, 2008, 05:32:01 pm
I hope that blob lasers will be much faster then . . .
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: nuone on December 20, 2008, 08:05:44 pm
Rail-guns should not be underestimated. (Hope I don't get censored for mentioning other-universe information) In the Halo universe, MAC cannons are essentially, monster rail-guns that can destroy entire capital ships with a single salvo. AWESOME. :nod:
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: eliex on December 20, 2008, 08:18:39 pm
Heh . . . if it comes to Halo, I'll preferably take the Covenant plasma cannons and capital ship shielding like the Lucifer. Hmmm, actually I might incorporate that  into . . .

Still, MAC rounds are actually projectiles IIRC, so the FS railguns would be more like the Covenant's plasma railguns.  :)
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Stormkeeper on December 20, 2008, 09:12:22 pm
MAC guns sound pretty heavy duty though. They sound alot like Gauss Rifles, tbh.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: General Battuta on December 20, 2008, 10:08:56 pm
Heh . . . if it comes to Halo, I'll preferably take the Covenant plasma cannons and capital ship shielding like the Lucifer. Hmmm, actually I might incorporate that  into . . .

Still, MAC rounds are actually projectiles IIRC, so the FS railguns would be more like the Covenant's plasma railguns.  :)

Noooo they wouldn't. There's no such thing as a 'plasma railgun'. Any railguns in the FS universe are fan-created, not canon, and therefore probably mass-driver weapons.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: eliex on December 21, 2008, 02:34:38 am
Okay, I checked what a railgun is in Wikipedia. My mistake.

MAC guns sound pretty heavy duty though. They sound alot like Gauss Rifles, tbh.

In the book "Fall of Reach" there are some MAC cannons described that can rip a Covenant Super-Destroyer in half including their shields.  :)
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Stormkeeper on December 21, 2008, 05:33:04 am
Heh. I guess they are heavy duty.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: -Norbert- on December 21, 2008, 09:06:29 am
Plasma Rail gun.... right....
And how would someone accelerate a cloud of superheated gas on a track of rails?
Or is it actually a projectile weapon that fires bullets with plasma inside a hard shell?
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Snail on December 21, 2008, 09:07:40 am
And how would someone accelerate a cloud of superheated gas on a track of rails?
Magnets? :confused:
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on December 21, 2008, 10:47:53 am
Encase it and use air separated by a piece of air-proof plastic? :nervous:
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Titan on December 21, 2008, 01:23:15 pm
or just admit that its a cool name?  :nervous:

i don't know how many 'railguns' i've seen, but none of them work like what a 'railgun' really is.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Snail on December 21, 2008, 02:42:55 pm
IRL, a railgun would just look like a very fast piece of metal.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: eliex on December 21, 2008, 05:20:44 pm
And how would someone accelerate a cloud of superheated gas on a track of rails?

For a plasma rifle (and obviously then other plasma based weaponry) an electromagnetic accelerator is required to guide the plasma forward: but now it is theoretical ideas so I have to say much more than that is needed.

And a real railgun from real life is . . .

Quote
A railgun is a purely electrical gun that accelerates a conductive projectile along a pair of metal rails using the same principles as the homopolar motor.

So actually a Halo MAC is the proper form of a railgun.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Commander Zane on December 21, 2008, 10:45:41 pm
Plasma Rail gun.... right....
And how would someone accelerate a cloud of superheated gas on a track of rails?
Or is it actually a projectile weapon that fires bullets with plasma inside a hard shell?
You can use accumulator rings, but then it would be more like a particle accelerator cannon. ;)
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Stormkeeper on December 22, 2008, 08:16:36 am
The railguns that the Tau use in DoW seem to fire a beam, then the projectile travels down the beam.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Darius on December 22, 2008, 09:12:28 am
That'll actually be a pretty cool weapon if I can find a way to work it into Freespace.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Stormkeeper on December 22, 2008, 09:14:32 am
Not to mention is freaking scary. The original Broadsides that came in squads of 3 weren;t very scary, but after the patch, watching a pair of Broadsides chew up Space Marines like they were Imp Guards is frightening.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: -Norbert- on December 22, 2008, 01:00:47 pm
In the background story of Warhammer 40K the Tau railguns don't fire beams, they do fire solid ammunition. I never really liked the way those weapons were animated in Dawn of War, but even there you see a projectile (white sphere) traveling inside the blue beam.
Besides, Warhammer is pretty much the last place we should look for when it  comes to explenations of technology...
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: nuone on December 22, 2008, 04:40:00 pm
If someone could animate them like the rail-guns in "ERASER" with Arnold Swarzeneggar, now that would be incredible.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: eliex on December 22, 2008, 07:48:47 pm
Not to mention is freaking scary. The original Broadsides that came in squads of 3 weren;t very scary, but after the patch, watching a pair of Broadsides chew up Space Marines like they were Imp Guards is frightening.

That was in Dark Crusade right? Luckily in Soulstorm Broadsides are pretty easy to kill.

I found it quite amusing to see on the titles of some DoW multiplayer games "No Tau." Fire Warrior massing is like the most annoying thing in the universe. :lol:

The railguns that the Tau use in DoW seem to fire a beam, then the projectile travels down the beam.

How does that work?  :confused:
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Stormkeeper on December 23, 2008, 02:56:09 am
That was in Dark Crusade right? Luckily in Soulstorm Broadsides are pretty easy to kill.
Not really ... my Broadside took down about 9 Space Marines. Granted, they weren't upgraded, but still ..

I found it quite amusing to see on the titles of some DoW multiplayer games "No Tau." Fire Warrior massing is like the most annoying thing in the universe. :lol:
I don't see whats so annoying, tbh. My friend tried that on me, and I just dropped in Flayed Ones and the Fire Warriors dropped like flies.

How does that work?  :confused:
Watch the Broadsides fire in Dark Crusade. It looks kinda like a guiding beam  that the shell uses to travel to its target. Like the UCS plasma cannon superweapon in Earth 2140 series, which fires a plasma beam, which does nothing, merely transporting its payload of bombs down the beam.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: -Norbert- on December 23, 2008, 03:24:58 am
Quote
How does that work?
You'd have to ask the ones that did the animations for DoW to be sure.
But I guess it could be some kind of projected magnetic field to keep the bullet on course or something like that.

The Fluff of W40K pretty much boils down to a railgun being a big gun that fires very large bullets at very high speeds.... unless they eleborate a bit more in the Tau codex, which I don't have.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: eliex on December 23, 2008, 03:23:00 pm
Watch the Broadsides fire in Dark Crusade. It looks kinda like a guiding beam  that the shell uses to travel to its target. Like the UCS plasma cannon superweapon in Earth 2140 series, which fires a plasma beam, which does nothing, merely transporting its payload of bombs down the beam.

Thanks for clearing that up. I was under the impression that the Tau were only plasma based, not with projectiles like the Space Marines or Sisters of Battle.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Fjellsveis on December 23, 2008, 07:00:02 pm
I'd like to see some weapons' system work like the Battlestar Galactica' flak. Say what you want about the series', but the weapons are very well done. Basically, the shells are high explosives filled with shrapnel, exploding in 'Airburst' patterns, very much like the tip of a watergun.

The fields of explosions you see over the Battlestar are just 'flak-fields', impossible for fighters, missiles or other to pass through.

So what I'd like to see, would be that capships have rows of the weapons, activating them when hostile objects comes to a ~1500m range. The weapon would have an effect at some ~500m from the hull. The ship proceeds to just shoot wildly towards the enemies, making an impassable field of fire for the hostile to attack through with anything but small missiles and gunfire. As a counter, fighters are forced to shoot out the flak turrets themselves. I assume capship weapons' fire can't damage their own hull or subsystems, so I think it'd be replicated nicely enough.

Could a coder call my bull****, or what do you think?
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: eliex on December 23, 2008, 07:05:46 pm
Sounds like a good idea. Just remember, try not to make capital ships too powerful: even Alpha 1 has his limits!  ;)
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Fjellsveis on December 23, 2008, 07:09:06 pm
Sounds like a good idea. Just remember, try not to make capital ships not too powerful: even Alpha 1 has his limits!  ;)

Oh, please. Not like it'd be a generalized system. More like specialized corvettes(Aouleus, holy sFAOSFJBEEEEEEEAMS) or important, custom flagships.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: General Battuta on December 23, 2008, 07:51:10 pm
I'd like to see some weapons' system work like the Battlestar Galactica' flak. Say what you want about the series', but the weapons are very well done. Basically, the shells are high explosives filled with shrapnel, exploding in 'Airburst' patterns, very much like the tip of a watergun.

The fields of explosions you see over the Battlestar are just 'flak-fields', impossible for fighters, missiles or other to pass through.

So what I'd like to see, would be that capships have rows of the weapons, activating them when hostile objects comes to a ~1500m range. The weapon would have an effect at some ~500m from the hull. The ship proceeds to just shoot wildly towards the enemies, making an impassable field of fire for the hostile to attack through with anything but small missiles and gunfire. As a counter, fighters are forced to shoot out the flak turrets themselves. I assume capship weapons' fire can't damage their own hull or subsystems, so I think it'd be replicated nicely enough.

Could a coder call my bull****, or what do you think?

Freespace already has flak guns that work like this, though.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Fjellsveis on December 23, 2008, 08:01:32 pm
Not quite. The flak guns that are in place are combat oriented, the system I'm talking about is purely defensive. It basically makes the capship in question neigh invulnerable to bombers and subsystem-disrupting rocket attacks. That, and you can't hide in it's crevices and tape in the 'shoot stuff'-button, because you'd get obliterated.

Plus, it doesn't look nearly as cool as a ship that looks like it's bloody burning.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: eliex on December 23, 2008, 09:27:54 pm
Such a system would be terribly expensive and only for defence? I think it should be considered an upgraded version of the FS2 flak gun (so some combat orientation), because it's not beam-proof.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: -Norbert- on December 24, 2008, 04:12:14 pm
Actually it's exactly like the FS2 flak, only that it doesn't fire at the enemy directly, but instead fire on a fixed position "above" the ship. Only that there are a hell of a lot of those things on a battlestar.
If I remember correctly there were two columns of doublebarreled turrets and in a single camerashot you saw at least four rows of those on screen at once. Now imagine 32 flaks in FS2 laying out continuous fire and you'll get pretty much the same carpet bombing effect as in BSG...
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Droid803 on December 24, 2008, 04:28:31 pm
And you also get MASSSSSSSIVE LAG + crash due to too many objects at once.
How fun.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: SpardaSon21 on January 07, 2009, 05:28:51 am
And you also get MASSSSSSSIVE LAG + crash due to too many objects at once.
How fun.

Yes.  It is.  Sounds quite fun.  :D

And to clarify things, Halo MAC guns are actually huge coilguns.  Line a bunch of magnets up, place a barrel in the holes, add projectile, trigger magnets, projectile goes flying.  Railguns are a pair of metal rails.  You slide the projectile between them and shove a bunch of current through a rail which generates Lorentz force due to the electrical resistance of the projectile which acts as a conducting force between the rails, sending it flying.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coilgun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coilgun)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railgun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railgun)
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Commander Zane on January 07, 2009, 05:51:09 am
I think UEF railguns will make for some awesome heavy broadside attacks considering that's the Solarius's primary role. Some sort of particle effect would give it something to make up for the lack of eye-candy you get from beamz, ;) the flashy projectiles are good.

I'm not really bothered with the no beam concept when they have these ultra sexy fighters. ;7
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Rodo on January 07, 2009, 06:25:50 am
I think UEF railguns will make for some awesome heavy broadside attacks considering that's the Solarius's primary role. Some sort of particle effect would give it something to make up for the lack of eye-candy you get from beamz, ;) the flashy projectiles are good.

I'm not really bothered with the no beam concept when they have these ultra sexy fighters. ;7

I would love to see that kind of combat...

the ones where the ship must take positions before attacking with all it's might... like a real pirate privateer reading it's guns !
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: SpardaSon21 on January 07, 2009, 03:17:29 pm
Beams are hard to aim.  Crossing someone's T is a lot harder to do with beams since they are set into the hull and don't have that much of a fire arc.  With turreted railguns however, the UEF has much more options for aiming then the GTVA.  A railgun turret mounted dorsally can attack to both sides and vertically, whereas the beam would be able to attack only vertically.  Also, how do ranges compare between railguns and beams?  Are railguns longer-ranged on average?  If so, then the UEF can attack from outside beam range and get an important alpha strike in, and possibly kite GTVA ships if they are faster.  However, sniping beam turrets will result in an easy UEF win since the GTVA has little else in the way of anti-cap firepower.  Snipe their beams, snipe their engines, demand their surrender, and then blow them up if they are stupid and keep fighting.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: General Battuta on January 07, 2009, 03:25:33 pm
Beams are hard to aim.  Crossing someone's T is a lot harder to do with beams since they are set into the hull and don't have that much of a fire arc.  With turreted railguns however, the UEF has much more options for aiming then the GTVA.  A railgun turret mounted dorsally can attack to both sides and vertically, whereas the beam would be able to attack only vertically.  Also, how do ranges compare between railguns and beams?  Are railguns longer-ranged on average?  If so, then the UEF can attack from outside beam range and get an important alpha strike in, and possibly kite GTVA ships if they are faster.  However, sniping beam turrets will result in an easy UEF win since the GTVA has little else in the way of anti-cap firepower.  Snipe their beams, snipe their engines, demand their surrender, and then blow them up if they are stupid and keep fighting.

It's a sad fact that beams are actually way more accurate than railguns. They hardly ever miss (except for slashers) and they have no travel time.

Darius has mentioned a few times that GTVA capital ships are, overall, slightly superior to their UEF counterparts, which I really like.

Sniping beam turrets could just as easily be sniping railgun turrets.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: eliex on January 07, 2009, 04:47:01 pm
The GTVA have taken over the role of Shivans as the beam-lords.
The First GTVA Incursion . . .  ;7
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Agent_Koopa on January 07, 2009, 04:49:12 pm
Well, personally when I heard "railguns" I thought of high-damage single-hit beams. Railgun turrets would still make power-up sounds, but not glow, and the beam itself would simulate the path of the projectile, which would be so fast that it could not be seen moving. So, basically, the beam would do an exorbitant amount of damage but only hit once. The "trail" of the projectile would flash as it was "fired", and fade out in less than a second. But I guess fast-moving blobs or missiles work too.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: SpardaSon21 on January 07, 2009, 05:18:59 pm
Beams are hard to aim.  Crossing someone's T is a lot harder to do with beams since they are set into the hull and don't have that much of a fire arc.  With turreted railguns however, the UEF has much more options for aiming then the GTVA.  A railgun turret mounted dorsally can attack to both sides and vertically, whereas the beam would be able to attack only vertically.  Also, how do ranges compare between railguns and beams?  Are railguns longer-ranged on average?  If so, then the UEF can attack from outside beam range and get an important alpha strike in, and possibly kite GTVA ships if they are faster.  However, sniping beam turrets will result in an easy UEF win since the GTVA has little else in the way of anti-cap firepower.  Snipe their beams, snipe their engines, demand their surrender, and then blow them up if they are stupid and keep fighting.

It's a sad fact that beams are actually way more accurate than railguns. They hardly ever miss (except for slashers) and they have no travel time.

Darius has mentioned a few times that GTVA capital ships are, overall, slightly superior to their UEF counterparts, which I really like.

Sniping beam turrets could just as easily be sniping railgun turrets.

Railguns are inaccurate?  Against a Raynor or Titan?  Inaccurate is impossible against ships that size.  Well, chances are the railguns have longer range due to the fact they are fire-and-forget weapons (after all, solid objects in space keep going until they hit something).  So if the UEF has a speed advantage, they can kite and railgun the GTVA to victory.  It doesn't matter how powerful your beams are if they can't hit the target.

Well no matter what, War in Heaven looks simply kickass, and I look forwards to flying your kickass fighters with kickass kinetic primaries.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: General Battuta on January 07, 2009, 06:20:00 pm
It's not that railguns are inaccurate, but they aren't hitscan weapons, which beams are. Instantaneous travel time says a lot. Railguns aren't 'fire-and-forget'; that term is used to describe weapons that continue tracking on their own after launch, specifically missiles. Railguns are no more fire-and-forget than beams are.

Beams also have pretty huge range - 4000 meters for a standard Terran anti-capital beam. While railguns are really powerful, the two weapon types are probably meant to be balanced, each filling a different tactical niche and making the two sides unique. It's not a case of railguns > beams, and, in fact, the UEF is (from what we've seen and heard) portrayed as having a technological disadvantage in that sense.

You're also forgetting that both the GTVA and UEF have long-range torpedoes designed specifically for kiting -- the Temeraire uses them on a pursuing Ravana, but only after the Ravana's main beams are taken out. Again, beams are pretty much king.

Lastly, don't give me any credit! I just handle voice acting for Blue Planet. War in Heaven is completely Darius' game; I just do some PR. I have no inside information on WiH whatsoever, and this is all pure speculation.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: -Norbert- on January 08, 2009, 08:41:46 am
Quote
since the GTVA has little else in the way of anti-cap firepower.
Not quiete.
When I played AoA thourgh, the Raynor did more damage to the Earth ship in the last mission with the blob turrets. For some reason the Orestes only used the anti-capship beam once at the beginning, then only employing the AAA beams.

As to torpedoes, those can be shot down, so you'd have to first send in some fighters to take out their point defense and fighter screen to really be successful with those.... unless your attacking a Ravanas front apperently.
They have tremendous beam firepower forward, but little else.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: SpardaSon21 on January 08, 2009, 11:48:03 am
So the UEF has no advantages aside from having Alpha One on their side?  Not that that matters really since Alpha One is on their side.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Mobius on January 08, 2009, 11:49:46 am
Oh God, do we need more posts about the "mighty" power of Alpha One?
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: General Battuta on January 08, 2009, 12:42:03 pm
So the UEF has no advantages aside from having Alpha One on their side?  Not that that matters really since Alpha One is on their side.

Of course the UEF has some advantages. UEF fighter pilots are supposed to be really good (judging from the WiH website) and their fighters look potent. They're fighting on their home turf and they have the moral high ground, as well as a powerful and (probably) well-liked government.

The tactical disadvantage of inferior weapons systems and inferior numbers is not everything.

Blue Planet is, I think, first and foremost a story. The UEF is clearly the underdog here, and that keeps the story interesting. It wouldn't be much fun if the GTVA suddenly became a group of incompetent, tactically inept jokes -- they have to be menacing and skilled, just as they were when Sam was part of their ranks.

It's not a simple war story. The UEF probably won't be scoring victories on the strength of more uberness. There'll probably be intrigue, deception, and a great deal of tactical innovation on both sides. The Vasudans will (I'm guessing) come into play somehow.

Heheh, and if you think having Alpha One is an advantage, try playing on Insane. The only amazing thing Alpha One has is the 'replay mission' button.

Oh, and I forgot to say: the UEF has the advantage of being awesome. Their ships and weapons are sweet. And the fact that they have weaknesses just makes them more interesting.

I really can't wait for WiH.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Commander Zane on January 08, 2009, 02:14:55 pm
If the UEF ships were anything like the way they were originally released it would only take one bomber to be able to take down a Raynor. :p
You wouldn't need Alpha One for that.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: General Battuta on January 08, 2009, 02:43:06 pm
If the UEF ships were anything like the way they were originally released it would only take one bomber to be able to take down a Raynor. :p
You wouldn't need Alpha One for that.

Wait, huh? The Raynor is a GTVA ship.

You might mean a Karuna? The Renjian was a Karuna.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: InsaneOne on January 08, 2009, 02:45:33 pm
I think he's talking about the Saracen bomber :nervous:

EDIT: or the Durga as it's called in BP apparently
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: -Norbert- on January 08, 2009, 03:09:28 pm
Quote
It wouldn't be much fun if the GTVA suddenly became a group of incompetent, tactically inept jokes -- they have to be menacing and skilled, just as they were when Sam was part of their ranks.
You mean the great Command that had the best idea ever:
Here we have the biggest and most powerfull Shivan ship ever encountered.... What shall we do?
Oh yeah, lets send out the Colossus and ONE bomber wing.
What? No.... why should we send out a fighter wing to cover the bombers from enemy interceptors? As if the Shivans ever tried shooting down our bombers...
Besides we only have more than 100 fighters on board the Colossus, we really can't afford to send more than the 4 bombers.

Or the great tactical decision to let an Orion slow down the Satanas.... an Orion that's taken out by the first salvo, before they even manage to finish the sentence about the damage to the ship.
That's like trying to slow down a tank by putting a bike in the way...

You mean those skilled and menacing GTVA tacticians?
Come to think of it, it is more than just a small wonder the Humans survived two wars with the Shivans....
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: General Battuta on January 08, 2009, 03:18:20 pm
There were plenty of blunders, but there were also plenty of good plans.

It wouldn't be very interesting if Command was uniformly right.

And a lot of those missions were somewhat compromised for game balance purposes.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Commander Zane on January 08, 2009, 04:18:52 pm
If the UEF ships were anything like the way they were originally released it would only take one bomber to be able to take down a Raynor. :p
You wouldn't need Alpha One for that.

Wait, huh? The Raynor is a GTVA ship.

You might mean a Karuna? The Renjian was a Karuna.

No, I mean the Raynor. I know it's a GTVA ship which is why I used it in the Example.
I think he's talking about the Saracen bomber :nervous:

EDIT: or the Durga as it's called in BP apparently

That's right, the original Saracen in the FTA release pack (As well as the Thor, but since it looks like it will not appear in WiH, I didn't mention it) can single-handedly take out any ship, I used a Thor alone to destroy a Lucifer just for the hell of it, a Saracen would easily obliterate a Raynor, my last post was saying you wouldn't need Alpha One if the UEF ships used from --Steve-O--'s FTA pack are anything like how they started off, even the AI is smart enough to properly use those Massdrivers on capital ships.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: General Battuta on January 08, 2009, 06:18:33 pm
Gotcha.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Agent_Koopa on January 08, 2009, 08:46:43 pm
Quote
It wouldn't be much fun if the GTVA suddenly became a group of incompetent, tactically inept jokes -- they have to be menacing and skilled, just as they were when Sam was part of their ranks.
You mean the great Command that had the best idea ever:
Here we have the biggest and most powerfull Shivan ship ever encountered.... What shall we do?
Oh yeah, lets send out the Colossus and ONE bomber wing.
What? No.... why should we send out a figther wing to cover the bombers from enemy interceptors? As if the Shivans ever tried shooting down our bombers...
Besides we only have more than 100 fighters on board the Colossus, we really can't afford to send more than the 4 bombers.

Or the great tactical decision to let an Orion slow down the Satanas.... an Orion that's taken out by the first salvo, before they even manage to finish the sentence about the damage to the ship.
That's like trying to slow down a tank by putting a bike in the way...

You mean those skilled and menecing GTVA tacticians?
Come to think of it, it is more than just a small wonder the Humans survived two wars with the Shivans....


Edit: Sorry for my spelling, but I'm just too tired to correct it today... maybe tomorrow...

The Phoenicia was a Hecate, not an Orion. And really that was done for dramatic impact more than anything else.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: SpardaSon21 on January 08, 2009, 11:49:34 pm
Point is Command is a bunch of morons.  While nowhere near as bad as in JAD, they still make some pretty stupid blunders.

And yes, the UEF does has one singular advantage.  It is simply kickass.  Kickass fighters (from what I saw in the vid it looked like his fighter had more firepower than an Erinyes), kickass weapons (nothing can beat ballistic weapons and the flying pieces of metal they shoot when it comes to awesome), and the kickass fighter pilot known as Alpha One.  The guy pretending to be Alpha One, Samuel Bei, (the original Alpha One is still somewhere in the Sol system single-handedly fighting off wings of Shivan Dragons with nothing but a Hercules, a few rolls of duct tape, and a Centaur support ship that shows up intermittently) is pretty cool himself though.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: eliex on January 09, 2009, 02:16:27 am
Point is Command is a bunch of morons.  While nowhere near as bad as in JAD, they still make some pretty stupid blunders.

What had happened to the good, smart Command we all know from FS1 . . .  :sigh:
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: ShadowGorrath on January 09, 2009, 06:04:32 am
Point is Command is a bunch of morons.  While nowhere near as bad as in JAD, they still make some pretty stupid blunders.

What had happened to the good, smart Command we all know from FS1 . . .  :sigh:

After the Reconstruction Era, he was asked to be GTVA Command in the ( soon to come ) Second Shivan Incursion. So he started preparing and voicing his lines, until the FS2 GTVA Command came, kicked the FS1 one out, and took over as Command.

At least that's the impression I get from BiteMeJason2.MP3
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: General Battuta on January 09, 2009, 08:30:48 am
Point is Command is a bunch of morons.  While nowhere near as bad as in JAD, they still make some pretty stupid blunders.

What had happened to the good, smart Command we all know from FS1 . . .  :sigh:

Most of the people who think Command is dumb in FS2 are missing the fact that most of the mistakes are intentional -- there's an entire behind the scenes plot involving GTI's pursuit of ETAK.

Besides, FS1 command was plenty silly. A single fighter wing to guard the Galatea in 'Tenderizer'?
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Stormkeeper on January 09, 2009, 10:05:25 am
Well, if we had a competent Command, Alpha 1 wouldn't really be so important anymore ...
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: -Norbert- on January 09, 2009, 10:44:31 am
What happened to FS1 Command?
Considering that Earth was the centre of the GTA I'd say they got trapped in the Sol system :)

And you were right, the Phoenicia really is a Hecate. I never really saw anything other than debris from it before.
But the really strange thing is, before it ALWAYS got destroyed, not even being able to finish the sound-file about the massive damange, but when I just checked, it managed to jump out at 3% hull.

Quote
I used a Thor alone to destroy a Lucifer just for the hell of it, a Saracen would easily obliterate a Raynor
Are you so sure about that?
I don't know the bomber you talk about, but a Raynor is far better than a Lucifer when it comes to fighter/bomber defence.
I'd even go so far to say the Lucifer is one of the worst cap-ships of all when it comes to fighter defense... No AAA beams, no flaks and a lot of blind spots and those few blob-turrets it has, have both slow refiringrate and "projectile" speed.
The Raynor on the other hand has AAAs, flaks, and fast-firing blob-turrets. Besides it has a lot more turrets than a Lucifer.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: nuone on January 09, 2009, 12:08:48 pm
Point is Command is a bunch of morons.  While nowhere near as bad as in JAD, they still make some pretty stupid blunders.

And yes, the UEF does has one singular advantage.  It is simply kickass.  Kickass fighters (from what I saw in the vid it looked like his fighter had more firepower than an Erinyes), kickass weapons (nothing can beat ballistic weapons and the flying pieces of metal they shoot when it comes to awesome), and the kickass fighter pilot known as Alpha One.  The guy pretending to be Alpha One, Samuel Bei, (the original Alpha One is still somewhere in the Sol system single-handedly fighting off wings of Shivan Dragons with nothing but a Hercules, a few rolls of duct tape, and a Centaur support ship that shows up intermittently) is pretty cool himself though.


Your DAMMNNNN RIGHT!!!!
-
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: nuone on January 09, 2009, 01:12:47 pm
If we think about this, (which we have in depth), an efficient use of magnetically accelerated kinetic weaponry would be in the form of ultra high caliber artillery. For instance, if I am not mistaken, HALO capital ships fire "either ferric tungsten or depleted uranium slugs at 30,000 m/s (Bye, bye 4000m beams). The high muzzle speed gives the 600 ton slug the kinetic energy and momentum necessary to damage a target and partially mitigates the unguided nature of the slug and its lack of maneuverability" - Halopedia. Please note the ridiculous size and power of such weaponry. Orbital Defense Platforms, take it up a couple of notches, "3000 tonne slug at 40% of the speed of light, enough to utterly destroy even the largest Covenant ship."

My friends, THAT is FIREPOWER! It would be amazing if at least ODP's were implemented into WiH, at least to defend Earth itself. The mitigating factor being limited salvos and extensive reload times.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: General Battuta on January 09, 2009, 02:25:55 pm
Ha ha ha, let's not bring real physics or scale into Freespace.

And don't forget that MAC guns are seriously outclassed by Covenant plasma torpedoes and energy projectors.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Mongoose on January 09, 2009, 03:15:59 pm
And you were right, the Phoenicia really is a Hecate. I never really saw anything other than debris from it before.
But the really strange thing is, before it ALWAYS got destroyed, not even being able to finish the sound-file about the massive damange, but when I just checked, it managed to jump out at 3% hull.
The Phoenecia's technically supposed to survive every time, since it has a make-invulnerable event placed on it in the actual mission file.  The trouble is, the Sathanas deals out damage so quickly that it sometimes manages to go up before that event even fires.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Commander Zane on January 09, 2009, 04:08:39 pm
Quote
I used a Thor alone to destroy a Lucifer just for the hell of it, a Saracen would easily obliterate a Raynor
Are you so sure about that?
I don't know the bomber you talk about, but a Raynor is far better than a Lucifer when it comes to fighter/bomber defence.
I'd even go so far to say the Lucifer is one of the worst cap-ships of all when it comes to fighter defense... No AAA beams, no flaks and a lot of blind spots and those few blob-turrets it has, have both slow refiringrate and "projectile" speed.
The Raynor on the other hand has AAAs, flaks, and fast-firing blob-turrets. Besides it has a lot more turrets than a Lucifer.
Yes, very sure. I could even take the Sathanas out facing it head-on.
When you have rigged weapons that allow you to attack at ranges only an ULTRA-AAA beam would be able to hit you with, you can do anything. ;7
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on January 09, 2009, 10:34:54 pm
The Phoenecia's technically supposed to survive every time, since it has a make-invulnerable event placed on it in the actual mission file.  The trouble is, the Sathanas deals out damage so quickly that it sometimes manages to go up before that event even fires.

I would think that the Sathanas deals so much damage that it occasionally does 2% hull damage at once, which bypasses the ship-invulnerable event. Keep in mind that FRED2 sexps are a bit on the primitive side.

When translated into English, the event should read something like this:

"When the hull of the ship 'Phoenicia' reaches 4% exactly, toggle invulnerability on the ship 'Phoenicia', send the message [Message Name] from the ship 'Phoenicia' and add a new 'Depart' order of priority [number] to the ship 'Phoenicia', with a delay time of [number] seconds."
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: -Norbert- on January 11, 2009, 09:08:57 am
They should have used something like "hull(pheonecia) <= 3%" instead of looking for exactly 3%...
I really wasn't aware that the destroyed was supposed to survive, since so far it always blew up on me when I played the mission.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Mobius on January 11, 2009, 09:19:38 am
Everything depends on the difficulty level.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Darius on January 12, 2009, 12:34:35 am
If the UEF ships were anything like the way they were originally released it would only take one bomber to be able to take down a Raynor. :p
You wouldn't need Alpha One for that.

I've rebalanced the fighter and weapon packs to fit with the rest of the mod. It should take quite a bit more than one bomber to take down a Raynor :P
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: SpardaSon21 on January 12, 2009, 11:51:37 pm
Point is Command is a bunch of morons.  While nowhere near as bad as in JAD, they still make some pretty stupid blunders.

And yes, the UEF does has one singular advantage.  It is simply kickass.  Kickass fighters (from what I saw in the vid it looked like his fighter had more firepower than an Erinyes), kickass weapons (nothing can beat ballistic weapons and the flying pieces of metal they shoot when it comes to awesome), and the kickass fighter pilot known as Alpha One.  The guy pretending to be Alpha One, Samuel Bei, (the original Alpha One is still somewhere in the Sol system single-handedly fighting off wings of Shivan Dragons with nothing but a Hercules, a few rolls of duct tape, and a Centaur support ship that shows up intermittently) is pretty cool himself though.


Your DAMMNNNN RIGHT!!!!
-

About what?  Command's stupidity, the UEF's god-like awesomeness, or the fact that the original Alpha One is still out there since he is actually Chuck Norris and therefore he cannot die?

P.S.  BP Team, why so much Supreme Commander stuff?  The .ani's, the main menu, the UEF, etc.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: General Battuta on January 13, 2009, 12:11:37 am
There's no BP team; it's just Darius and two people doing voice acting coordination who don't really count (me and Rian.) He gave us badges because he is magnanimous.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Commander Zane on January 13, 2009, 12:39:36 am
P.S.  BP Team, why so much Supreme Commander stuff?  The .ani's, the main menu, the UEF, etc.
Because the .anis fit.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Darius on January 13, 2009, 01:00:50 am
The anis were used because around the same time I was making the campaign I was playing around with some of the files of Supcom and used some of their files to practice ani creation.

The UEF because...coincidence really. That and seemingly all acronyms to describe an Earth alliance had already been taken in one universe or another.

There's no BP team; it's just Darius and two people doing voice acting coordination who don't really count (me and Rian.) He gave us badges because he is magnanimous.

I'm giving badges to people who contribute material towards Blue Planet. You and Rian count because you've been organising the Voice Acting. I'm going to assign more out to people who have been making material specifically for the campaign as well.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: General Battuta on January 13, 2009, 08:23:15 am
Yeah, I do remember thinking that Blowfish had done some work, and I'm not sure who else. The more BP badges, the merrier.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: SpardaSon21 on January 13, 2009, 11:17:04 am
The anis were used because around the same time I was making the campaign I was playing around with some of the files of Supcom and used some of their files to practice ani creation.

The UEF because...coincidence really. That and seemingly all acronyms to describe an Earth alliance had already been taken in one universe or another.

There's no BP team; it's just Darius and two people doing voice acting coordination who don't really count (me and Rian.) He gave us badges because he is magnanimous.

I'm giving badges to people who contribute material towards Blue Planet. You and Rian count because you've been organising the Voice Acting. I'm going to assign more out to people who have been making material specifically for the campaign as well.

Understandable about the .ani's fitting.  Although its just weird having Dostya and Clark give me mission orders that don't involve blowing up Cybrans or Aeons.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: blowfish on January 13, 2009, 03:57:12 pm
Yeah, I do remember thinking that Blowfish had done some work

I did? :nervous:  All I remember doing was the HTL Aurora (not technically tied to Blue Planet), and screwing around with adding Shivan secondaries, texture updates, nameplates, and minor mission stability things (which I sorta maybe planned to release at some point ... if I ever finished it :nervous:).  Oh and those failtacular beam upgrades I did so long ago ... doesn't really amount to much.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: General Battuta on January 13, 2009, 06:19:56 pm
That sounds like 'some work'.

I will shut up and let Darius talk about BP administration stuff, though.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Mobius on January 14, 2009, 02:15:31 pm
hey, what about recruiting modellers and textures to create unique stuff for BP? I guess you could attract the attention of many modellers, BP is one of the best campaigns in circulation afterall. :)
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Snail on January 14, 2009, 02:18:24 pm
The fact that Darius has been able to do this astounding campaign all on his own is surely a testament to the power of "Get off your ass and do something".
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Angelus on January 15, 2009, 04:00:00 pm
The fact that Darius has been able to do this astounding campaign all on his own is surely a testament to the power of "Get off your ass and do something".


 :yes:
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: blowfish on January 15, 2009, 06:17:21 pm
The fact that Darius has been able to do this astounding campaign all on his own is surely a testament to the power of "Get off your ass and do something".

QFT

It's amazing that Darius managed to finish this in only 10 months (IIRC) when other campaigns, with talented and experienced teams, sit idle for years.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on January 15, 2009, 06:54:38 pm
Speak for yourself (cue team icons). :p
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: eliex on January 15, 2009, 09:26:29 pm
Heh, just look at me. 3 months pass and all I've done is 4 fully completed missions.
Darius really has determination and motivation.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Dilmah G on January 16, 2009, 06:21:51 am
Heh, just look at me. 3 months pass and all I've done is 4 fully completed missions.
Darius really has determination and motivation.

Yeah, Darius should be a writer
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: noodlezombie on January 19, 2009, 03:38:49 pm
Clearly what will happen is that Earth will be on the brink of defeat. And then the Principality of Zeon will entire the war with their newest super weapons and turn the tide.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: SPECTRE87 on March 15, 2009, 07:44:31 am
 :bump:

I got a question to Darius regarding the UE...

Since it has been established that Earth was sealed off from the rest of the Universe during the end of the Great War we must assume that Earth (unless another form of travel has been invented) had nowhere to go and was confined to their own solar system, Sol. So that's one system versus at least 10+ systems, and in that regard UE looses badly to the GTVA in terms of resources available. Even if Sol was loaded with resources...

And we must also assume that Sol is pretty much depleted of resources given the fact that most if it must have gone into the Great War and all the time before it. So here we are 60 years after the end of the Great War and they suddenly find themselves under attack from the GTVA. How do you explain them being able to afford a fleet capable of withstanding the GTVA?
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Dilmah G on March 15, 2009, 08:05:58 am
:bump:

I got a question to Darius regarding the UE...

Since it has been established that Earth was sealed off from the rest of the Universe during the end of the Great War we must assume that Earth (unless another form of travel has been invented) had nowhere to go and was confined to their own solar system, Sol. So that's one system versus at least 10+ systems, and in that regard UE looses badly to the GTVA in terms of resources available. Even if Sol was loaded with resources...

And we must also assume that Sol is pretty much depleted of resources given the fact that most if it must have gone into the Great War and all the time before it. So here we are 60 years after the end of the Great War and they suddenly find themselves under attack from the GTVA. How do you explain them being able to afford a fleet capable of withstanding the GTVA?

I ain't Darius but I'll give you my take on this.

The UE doesn't need a superior fleet in terms of numbers to stand a chance against the GTVA. There is only ONE node into Sol, and that's from Delta Serpentis, the UE will find out about the knossos very quickly in terms of the amount of GTVA personnel defecting. The UE can effectively blockade this node with every man, woman and child and turn the Invasion Fleet into little more than scrap metal very fast.

As I said before. Defection. The GTVA is doing it by the numbers. This means additional ships, working beam cannon technology which the UE can copy/modify/mount, and the strategic minds onboard those ships.

Take Vietnam for example, a foreign invasion force can never totally defeat a determine local populace (I've heard that before somewhere..... *cough* Lisa Simpson! *cough*). These people are fighting for their own homes, and how are the GTVA to take all the planets in the Sol System? Time consuming process.

And look at the retail campaign, the GTVA has numerous fleets. But these are always deployed conservatively, 28 combined GTVA Fleets ought to be able to take down the NTF faster, however that's just now how GTVA High Command thinks and generally isn't a smart tactical move regarding all fronts.

The GTVA don't just launch attacks on systems. There were recon probs deployed through the knossos, and whatever the hell they found must've made Command (yes, the black guy) swallow his headset mike to make him commit an invasion force. The UE probably have something up their sleeves, and with up to 1/4+ of the original GTVA Invasion Force defecting, including some higher-ups, the UE know most of the GTVA's inner workings, and have compromised the Invasion Force.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Rodo on March 15, 2009, 08:57:10 am
and I'll add....

30 years of colonization and study on foreign systems will never turn more profitable (on resources mather) than a century of the solar system exploration and exploitation.

Sol already has it's structure completely built, leaving more time to R&D and resource search than the time that GTVA can invest in that areas.

You think giving a new home to millions of Capellan refugees is an easy thing to do? I think not...and STILL hi-council thinks about capturing Sol instead of forging and alliance.
they sent probes to check on the sol system capabilities in terms of military and economical areas, is GTVA fleet so advanced and modern and so vast to justify the hi-council's decision?


this and MORE will be revealed on BLUE PLANET - WIH! (hopefully)

by the way how's that HIW coming along??
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: SPECTRE87 on March 15, 2009, 09:21:03 am
 :doubt: I don't buy any of those explanations for a simple reason. Which neither have covered. Sol does not have the same amount of resources or population as the GTVA, and frankly the GTVA could just throw out a propaganda campaign to make the UE look like aggressors. And we have seen how useful blockades are in face of superior numbers made up of superior ships, so If the GTVA really wants to take Sol it wouldn't be much more than a fight of attrition, which is one the UE stands no chance of winning.

BP has shown the UE as a faction fully capable of building entire fleets much superior to the Great War fleets, which again, due to lack of resources is bullocks if all the UE has access to is Sol... So I'd like Darius to explain how UE suddenly has the resources to be a faction capable of fending off the GTVA... Don't get me wrong here, if the UE isn't then there is no real story to present, but it better have a really good and plausible explanation to show for.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Rodo on March 15, 2009, 09:26:34 am
Sol does not have the same amount of resources or population as the GTVA, and frankly the GTVA could just throw out a propaganda campaign to make the UE look like aggressors.

the propaganda thing you can start putting your signature there... it gonna happen, both sides will want to be seen as the good guys, that will determine the winner.

about having the same amount of resources you are right, but how much developed are the means of extracting those resources and how much has been discovered... well I think sol wins by far there. (and sol has a large asteroid belt to get resources from... Inferno saga of solar wars exploits this fact quite good)
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Darius on March 15, 2009, 09:30:55 am
this and MORE will be revealed on BLUE PLANET - WIH! (hopefully)

What he said. There's already been a lot of discussion about what resources Sol would have, both inside and outside BP. People have shown good arguments for either side.

Now I'm going away for a few days, so behave yourselves everyone :)
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: General Battuta on March 15, 2009, 09:40:18 am
:doubt: I don't buy any of those explanations for a simple reason. Which neither have covered. Sol does not have the same amount of resources or population as the GTVA, and frankly the GTVA could just throw out a propaganda campaign to make the UE look like aggressors. And we have seen how useful blockades are in face of superior numbers made up of superior ships, so If the GTVA really wants to take Sol it wouldn't be much more than a fight of attrition, which is one the UE stands no chance of winning.

BP has shown the UE as a faction fully capable of building entire fleets much superior to the Great War fleets, which again, due to lack of resources is bullocks if all the UE has access to is Sol... So I'd like Darius to explain how UE suddenly has the resources to be a faction capable of fending off the GTVA... Don't get me wrong here, if the UE isn't then there is no real story to present, but it better have a really good and plausible explanation to show for.

Please cite a source that indicates Sol has a smaller population or resources than the GTVA.

Capella was a densely populated system by GTVA standards yet it had mere millions. If anything, the evidence is that Sol has greater population and more developed infrastructure than the rest of the GTVA.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: SPECTRE87 on March 15, 2009, 09:40:57 am
Sol does not have the same amount of resources or population as the GTVA, and frankly the GTVA could just throw out a propaganda campaign to make the UE look like aggressors.

the propaganda thing you can start putting your signature there... it gonna happen, both sides will want to be seen as the good guys, that will determine the winner.

about having the same amount of resources you are right, but how much developed are the means of extracting those resources and how much has been discovered... well I think sol wins by far there. (and sol has a large asteroid belt to get resources from... Inferno saga of solar wars exploits this fact quite good)

And we have to assume that the GTVA has access to similar or larger asteroid belts given the construction of the Colossus. I'm basically asking of the UE only has Sol or access to other Solar systems here... Because if they don't then they simply don't stand a chance when speaking of available resources... Furthermore I've been wondering why the GTVA just didn't launch an expedition from Alpha Centauri some years after the Great War. Even at 1/4 of c, they would have been able to reach Earth way before the events of FS2... Somehow it just doesn't make any sense...


Please cite a source that indicates Sol has a smaller population or resources than the GTVA.

Capella was a densely populated system by GTVA standards yet it had mere millions. If anything, the evidence is that Sol has greater population and more developed infrastructure than the rest of the GTVA.

Infrastructure means little if you don't have the sheer resources available to you... Sol would most likely have been pretty much depleted of resources by the time the GTVA reestablish contact...
There are only two possible explanations here to explain how the UE would ever stand a chance against the GTVA.

A) Sol is a freak of the Universe and has several undiscovered "pockets" of resources near it's limits which were unknown till after the Great War.
B) Earth somehow discovered how to built artificial subspace portal and/or found alternative means of travel and have, in less than 60 years, established a vast Empire.


Then again, according to BP, Alpha 1 joins Earth and given FreeSpace terminology that is a good enough explanation...  :lol:
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: General Battuta on March 15, 2009, 09:47:57 am
The lightspeed thing is a plot hole. Best fanwank I can come up with is that GTVA ships don't have the life support capacity for journeys that long without replenishment...urgh, kinda weak.

Anyway, the UEF in War in Heaven has been suggested to be at a military disadvantage compared to the GTVA (in spite of a probably larger population and infrastructure). So don't worry about it too much, Spectre, it sounds like Darius has it covered.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Commander Zane on March 15, 2009, 09:49:28 am
BP has shown the UE as a faction fully capable of building entire fleets much superior to the Great War fleets, which again, due to lack of resources is bullocks if all the UE has access to is Sol... So I'd like Darius to explain how UE suddenly has the resources to be a faction capable of fending off the GTVA... Don't get me wrong here, if the UE isn't then there is no real story to present, but it better have a really good and plausible explanation to show for.
They don't need squat, they just need what they have plus the people in the GTVA that defects. :rolleyes:
Their resources are added from those defectors and whatever explotiations they give them.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: SPECTRE87 on March 15, 2009, 09:53:36 am
The lightspeed thing is a plot hole. Best fanwank I can come up with is that GTVA ships don't have the life support capacity for journeys that long without replenishment...urgh, kinda weak.

Anyway, the UEF in War in Heaven has been suggested to be at a military disadvantage compared to the GTVA (in spite of a probably larger population and infrastructure). So don't worry about it too much, Spectre, it sounds like Darius has it covered.

Yes, extremely weak given the presence of the Sanctuary, which survived without Earth for 50 years! The journey I presented would take 16 years... even at 1/10 of c it would still only be 40 years...

BP has shown the UE as a faction fully capable of building entire fleets much superior to the Great War fleets, which again, due to lack of resources is bullocks if all the UE has access to is Sol... So I'd like Darius to explain how UE suddenly has the resources to be a faction capable of fending off the GTVA... Don't get me wrong here, if the UE isn't then there is no real story to present, but it better have a really good and plausible explanation to show for.
They don't need squat, they just need what they have plus the people in the GTVA that defects. :rolleyes:
Their resources are added from those defectors and whatever explotiations they give them.

Poor argumenting at work... People aren't material you know...

Anyway I asked Darius about this, and thus I'll await his answer...
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Commander Zane on March 15, 2009, 09:56:55 am
The only thing I see reading all this is the first character that appears on this video. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxCh6as8sOw&feature=channel_page)
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: General Battuta on March 15, 2009, 10:08:33 am
The lightspeed thing is a plot hole. Best fanwank I can come up with is that GTVA ships don't have the life support capacity for journeys that long without replenishment...urgh, kinda weak.

Anyway, the UEF in War in Heaven has been suggested to be at a military disadvantage compared to the GTVA (in spite of a probably larger population and infrastructure). So don't worry about it too much, Spectre, it sounds like Darius has it covered.

Yes, extremely weak given the presence of the Sanctuary, which survived without Earth for 50 years! The journey I presented would take 16 years... even at 1/10 of c it would still only be 40 years...

BP has shown the UE as a faction fully capable of building entire fleets much superior to the Great War fleets, which again, due to lack of resources is bullocks if all the UE has access to is Sol... So I'd like Darius to explain how UE suddenly has the resources to be a faction capable of fending off the GTVA... Don't get me wrong here, if the UE isn't then there is no real story to present, but it better have a really good and plausible explanation to show for.
They don't need squat, they just need what they have plus the people in the GTVA that defects. :rolleyes:
Their resources are added from those defectors and whatever explotiations they give them.

Poor argumenting at work... People aren't material you know...

Anyway I asked Darius about this, and thus I'll await his answer...

He already answered you. Look up a bit.

If you don't have enough people to use your material, then yes, people are material; and there are so many resources in Sol alone (and the system is probably so well developed) that it could probably out-produce the rest of the GTVA if it wanted to.

But again, all the evidence so far suggests that the UEF is outnumbered and out-performed by GTVA ships. So nothing for you to worry about, right?

The lightspeed plothole is an issue with Freespace in general, not with Blue Planet.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Rodo on March 15, 2009, 12:15:31 pm
what I'm really waiting for from BP WIH is to see the actual ramifications of the basic Terran technologies, what have humans on earth accomplished??
have they developed some cutting edge technology??
have they upgraded what they had (in terms of warfare)?
has the system been completely conquered , explored and united under one single and unopposed faction which rejoins willingly all humans?


or... as evidenced on AOA, humans are still too far away from illumination or ascention?
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Snail on March 15, 2009, 12:35:15 pm
The Shivans need to be replaced.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Titan on March 15, 2009, 06:33:53 pm
I think the GTVA will win, since they have the GTD Capella.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Commander Zane on March 15, 2009, 06:39:48 pm
The Shivans need to be replaced.
It would be nice to fight more modern Shivans. :nod:
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Dilmah G on March 16, 2009, 02:47:26 am
@SPECTRE87

The GTVA's been in numerous wars since they lost contact with Earth. This would've ravaged the GTVA and they would've eventually recovered. However we can assume the UE's been fairly lax on the warfront and have used the 50+ years they've had without the GTA breathing down their necks to build a large and expansive fleet with whatever resources they had. And there are 8 planets in the Sol system, we can assume most of them contain various resources that the GTA wouldn't have tapped into, and Jupiter etc being gas giants, the UE has a plentiful supply for the reactors of their ships (Remember "Into the Maelstrom"? The Colly needed that gas to power its reactor or whatnot). They may have much, much, larger ships or ships that bore much greater sheer power with reactors with limitless resources.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on March 16, 2009, 03:09:01 am
And keep in mind that production of the GTW Prometheus was halted in 2335 because Sol was cut off. The Prometheus needs deuterium, which Sol has in spades.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: SPECTRE87 on March 16, 2009, 04:53:35 am
GTVA has the Kayser and Maxim cannons (and Balor autocannon)  :rolleyes:

And they do actually have the ability to produce the Prometheus cannon.

Quote
The original GTW-5 Prometheus S was removed from service when the link to Earth was lost and the GTVA was unable to obtain sufficient quantities of argon (a required element in the Prometheus's power-generation module). Recent deployment of Anuket and Zephyrus gas miners has enabled us to resume production of the GTW-5 Prometheus S. The S-type is a minor variant of the original Prometheus laser cannon. The S-type's faster recharge cycle and lower energy drain cause many pilots to prefer it over the R variant.

Now they make it look like it is less capable than the original, but a fast comparison points towards the S-type... It certainly has range over the original.

Furthermore I'd suspect that the Erinyes would a standard fighter by the time in question. I'm also pretty sure the Pegasus stealth fighters would have been developed into something far more polished and deadly... (The F-22 Raptor of FreeSpace)
So apart from Alpha 1 being on UE side I don't see what real military advantage they would have...

Anyhow I'm actually dying to see the next chapter, Darius  :lol:
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Commander Zane on March 16, 2009, 05:48:33 am
They may of found a way around the no-Sol-to-help-make-certain-weapons but guess what? During that time gap that the GTVA was stuck using the piece of **** Retrofit, Sol would have more than enough time to make something BETTER. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: SPECTRE87 on March 16, 2009, 05:58:59 am
 :blah: Except the retrofit and later standard (pretty much equal to original) weren't all that sucky as you try to make them. They at least have range advantage. But that is of little relevance as we all know that GTVA has access to Shivan technology. I'm not sure you can't say the same for Sol. But I'll leave that to Darius, as it was after all he I asked for and not you guys..  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: General Battuta on March 16, 2009, 09:49:25 am
:blah: Except the retrofit and later standard (pretty much equal to original) weren't all that sucky as you try to make them. They at least have range advantage. But that is of little relevance as we all know that GTVA has access to Shivan technology. I'm not sure you can't say the same for Sol. But I'll leave that to Darius, as it was after all he I asked for and not you guys..  :rolleyes:

As has been stated before, you don't have anything to worry about, because Darius has hinted the UEF is at a military disadvantage in ship quality and probably numbers.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Commander Zane on March 16, 2009, 12:02:58 pm
But the ships are too damn sexy for me to care. :D
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Darius on March 19, 2009, 02:33:56 am
Just got back from the country, give me a day or so to recover and then I'll read through everyone's questions :P
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Darius on March 20, 2009, 03:52:08 am
Since it has been established that Earth was sealed off from the rest of the Universe during the end of the Great War we must assume that Earth (unless another form of travel has been invented) had nowhere to go and was confined to their own solar system, Sol. So that's one system versus at least 10+ systems, and in that regard UE looses badly to the GTVA in terms of resources available. Even if Sol was loaded with resources...

And we must also assume that Sol is pretty much depleted of resources given the fact that most if it must have gone into the Great War and all the time before it. So here we are 60 years after the end of the Great War and they suddenly find themselves under attack from the GTVA. How do you explain them being able to afford a fleet capable of withstanding the GTVA?

This is my take on the Freespace 2 universe.

The GTA was primarily an expansionist power that required the exploitation of colonies to power its economy. Earth (and Sol) would be the GTA's industrial, economic and cultural centre, much like how London was the political and cultural hub of the British Empire. When Earth was cut off from the wealth of the colonies, the Earth Government would have had to change from the existing unsustainable economic policies of the GTA and redesign the economy from the ground up. Sol would still have the GTA 1st Fleet that was based there, but with the change of government, those ships would have been decommissioned and broken down for scrap. Earth's formidable infrastructure would still remain, which would eventually help whatever economic reforms the Earth government makes into policy.

Because the GTA had been on a "total war" policy for the past fourteen years, the military would have been receiving the bulk of funding, and would therefore be the first to be axed to save money. Downsizing the military and redesigning ships to be more economical and flexible would be the military doctrine for Earth's future fleet. This is where concepts like the GTC Sanctus cruiser-transport comes in, and deploying fighter squadrons to provide the bulk of military power. There would also be more focus on creating fast, versatile ships to serve in command roles that could be deployed to many different hot spots in the system (UEFg Karuna). Once the economy recovered, the government could afford development of larger capital ships for military and psychological power projection.

Earth's got plenty of powerful fighters, and some fast, powerful frigates, but lacks capital ships with real punch. Conversely, the GTVA's focused its doctrine on capital ship power (after their experiences with superior Shivan destroyers and cruisers), and using cheap, light fighters to bolster the ranks of its strikecraft squadrons (Kulas and Myrmidon fighters).

Hope that answers your question :)
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on March 20, 2009, 04:51:30 am
So what you're saying is that, while the GTVA has been making larger ships that have more guns, the UEF have been making smaller ships that are hard to hit?

Two different philosophies there. :yes2::nod::yes:
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Pred the Penguin on March 20, 2009, 05:39:28 am
That makes it seem like the GTVA is the Empire and Earth is the rebellion. XD

Then again, guerrilla warfare would not always be viable for Earh.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Darius on March 20, 2009, 05:57:52 am
Actually, the Galactic Terrans are Italy, Earth is Greece, and the year is 1940 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Italian_War).
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: SPECTRE87 on March 20, 2009, 07:46:30 am
I don't really buy the whole deal of neglect of strike crafts within the GTVA. If anything FS2 proves the opposite here. Take the Erinyes, Perseus, or Pegasus as an example. The only real advantage I can see the UE has is that it can deploy all of it's forces to one theater while the GTVA might only be able to deploy a couple of fleets as they have vastly more territory to cover. So maybe I could be able to fight a defensive war, but going on the offensive? Hardly.

Given your response I assume that UE does not have access to any other star system, right?
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Pred the Penguin on March 20, 2009, 08:44:26 am
Actually, the Galactic Terrans are Italy, Earth is Greece, and the year is 1940 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Italian_War).
Then who the hell are the Vasudans?
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Dilmah G on March 20, 2009, 09:02:25 am
I don't really buy the whole deal of neglect of strike crafts within the GTVA. If anything FS2 proves the opposite here. Take the Erinyes, Perseus, or Pegasus as an example. The only real advantage I can see the UE has is that it can deploy all of it's forces to one theater while the GTVA might only be able to deploy a couple of fleets as they have vastly more territory to cover. So maybe I could be able to fight a defensive war, but going on the offensive? Hardly.

Given your response I assume that UE does not have access to any other star system, right?

The GTVA LEARNED from Capella, and the events of FS2. The Erinyes is great for blasting fighters into fifty million pieces a few seconds faster than a Kulas armed with a Balor can, but really, capital ships such as the Ravana, Demon and the Juggernaught, the Sath, is what really gave the Shivans a leg up. Remember, the Erinyes, Perseus and what-not are still used in BP, Al'Faddil (how however you spell it) flies an Erinyes.

So from what Darius says, the GTVA have turned their doctrine from surgical strike actions, with capital ships being used as fire-support, as seen in the retail campaign, to a capital-ship based doctrine, in which the fighters provide cover, and forward reconnaissance for capital ships entering the field of engagement. Forced Entry for example, they were clearing the way for the fleet.

We don't need another Erinyes clone to do that. We need something that can be deployed fast, moves fast, shoots fast, and packs light, like the Kulas. The Erinyes is still there, but remember, the GTVA lost pretty much 1/2-3/4 of its fighter squadrons in the Terran 3rd Fleet. To replace these, they needed something cheap as well, which fits with their doctrine of light spacecraft.

And he didn't say strike fighter squadrons had been neglected, these squadrons clearly still exist, but to bolster the ranks, and to boost the "Cannon-Fodder" the GTVA had available to them, what's better than the Kulas and the Myrmidon? They're cheap, do their jobs, and I would assume they have a relatively high attrition rate compared to the strike fighter squadrons, which I also assume would be something similar to pilots flying the F-22 Raptor at the moment. They're the Strike Squadrons of the GTVA, but now the GTVA's buying lots of F-16s and F-15s to bolster the ranks, and support the operations of the F-22 Raptors, which'll soon be supplemented by the F-35 JSF, which is like the Artemis in some sense. You could almost say, Perseus fighters were designed to protect the bombers of their generation, such as the Artemis. Akin to how some strategists could say the F-22 is at it's base level, there to support and escort F-35s on their deep strike/infiltarion missions. Then you have the F-15s and F-16s, the Myrmidons and Kulas fighters, they're there to carry out your line jobs.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: SpardaSon21 on March 20, 2009, 01:24:33 pm
I really like the tactical differences between the UEF and the GTVA, especially the smaller, more flexible Earth.  Although being smaller won't help against a hitscan "whatever beams the GTVA uses now".

And Darius, please, please for the love of God don't pull an Inferno and introduce Shivans as a deus ex machina.  I want to fight this war to its bloody human-on-human end.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Mobius on March 20, 2009, 01:42:20 pm
Actually, the Galactic Terrans are Italy, Earth is Greece, and the year is 1940 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Italian_War).

lol...
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Snail on March 20, 2009, 01:48:19 pm
Actually, the Galactic Terrans are Italy, Earth is Greece, and the year is 1940 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Italian_War).
Then who be the Nazis?
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: decembered on March 23, 2009, 07:21:34 am
Finished the campaign yesterday, and on my mind, it stands just second, story-wise, to the main FS2 campaign, although BP is extremely different in style and, to say so, spirit from the 'canonic' FS2. Derelict and Procyon Insurgency I've played so far are just great, but BP is the one I liked the most.

Anyway, I can't see the point of GTVA's military invasion to Sol with apparent reconquest in 'high command' minds, other than those minds are mean beyond all comprehension  ;7

This ain't no criticism, but rather a question. Anyway, I'm dying to see the story's further development, for it's more than promising.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: eliex on March 23, 2009, 09:51:55 pm
Anyway, I can't see the point of GTVA's military invasion to Sol with apparent reconquest in 'high command' minds, other than those minds are mean beyond all comprehension  ;7

New times new changes.  ;)
Although I think Darius had to use a new character setting within an existing universe so it'll be explained in WiH.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Stormkeeper on April 06, 2009, 12:23:32 am
Anyway, I can't see the point of GTVA's military invasion to Sol with apparent reconquest in 'high command' minds, other than those minds are mean beyond all comprehension  ;7
Simple answer; symbolism. Earth is the cradle of humanity, the home of all humans. The main reason that I could see for the recapture of Earth for the GTVA would that recapturing Earth would make a powerful statement to the rest of the GTVA, like "Hey, us Terrans? We've got our home back!"

I suspect the Vasudans would support this endeavour simply because they understand what it is to lose their homeplanet, and the wanting that the Terrans would have for being reunited with Earth. Although once they discover that the UEF is rather benevolent, I'm not sure whethere they'll still support the Terrans ..
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Dilmah G on April 06, 2009, 06:29:58 am
Although once they discover that the UEF is rather benevolent

Are they?
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Stormkeeper on April 07, 2009, 07:22:16 am
Relatively anyway, as far as we know for now.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Dilmah G on April 07, 2009, 07:50:48 am
Relatively anyway, as far as we know for now.

Well we haven't been told a lot about the UEF so really we're basing this on nothing. The GTVA wouldn't have sent a strike force in unless something the UEF did or had seriously scared them IMO....
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Stormkeeper on April 07, 2009, 09:51:52 am
Well we haven't been told a lot about the UEF so really we're basing this on nothing. The GTVA wouldn't have sent a strike force in unless something the UEF did or had seriously scared them IMO....
Well, the GTVA did go in with the mindset to conquer.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Dilmah G on April 08, 2009, 07:51:06 am
Well we haven't been told a lot about the UEF so really we're basing this on nothing. The GTVA wouldn't have sent a strike force in unless something the UEF did or had seriously scared them IMO....
Well, the GTVA did go in with the mindset to conquer.

But WHY did they want to conquer? Some kind of gain obviously, it's a much less strain on resources to remain allies etc than full on invading them. So either the UEF presented themselves as hostile or the UEF/Sol System has something the GTVA wants IMO...
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: nuone on April 08, 2009, 09:09:58 am
Well we haven't been told a lot about the UEF so really we're basing this on nothing. The GTVA wouldn't have sent a strike force in unless something the UEF did or had seriously scared them IMO....
Well, the GTVA did go in with the mindset to conquer.

But WHY did they want to conquer? Some kind of gain obviously, it's a much less strain on resources to remain allies etc than full on invading them. So either the UEF presented themselves as hostile or the UEF/Sol System has something the GTVA wants IMO...


Exactly. Gentlemen, a look into history can explain why the GTVA attacked Earth. After having lost access to Earth, the colonies had to implementt their own government, mainly the GTVA. The GTVA arose as the dominant power in the region. After 60+ years of ruling and fighting, do you believe they would simply bow once again to their home-planet's government? High ranking officials and offices would be abolished and relegate themselves to UE authority. (Illustration) Imaging that the 13 original colonies had not rebelled. Imagine that they had "lost contact" with Great Britain. Two hundred years later you have the United States, and they "miraculously" regain contact with her mother-nation. Would the president and congress give up their jobs and submit to English rule? <Think about it>
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Dilmah G on April 08, 2009, 09:18:19 am
That's actually a half-decent hypothesis
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Rodo on April 08, 2009, 09:41:54 am
the other half is ... nasty?

the motives for the high council are a mystery,but I would bet on that one... it's a logical option given the past decisions taken by them.

Hey by the way what kind of government is the GTVA anyway?? is it like a pseudo Empire.. or a Republic kind or so??
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Snail on April 08, 2009, 09:48:32 am
the other half is ... nasty?

the motives for the high council are a mystery,but I would bet on that one... it's a logical option given the past decisions taken by them.

Hey by the way what kind of government is the GTVA anyway?? is it like a pseudo Empire.. or a Republic kind or so??
I always saw it as governed in a similar style to the United States.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Rodo on April 08, 2009, 09:52:37 am

I always saw it as governed in a similar style to the United States.

the high council elements are elected?

right now the only thing I remember is that the GTVA is "formed" out of the blue, like a merging of many different governments of different star systems right?
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Snail on April 08, 2009, 10:30:35 am
Err, no.

It started out as a kind of trading-peace framework organization (sorta like the UN) which became more powerful over time.

From the TD:

Quote from: GTVA Tech Description
The Galactic Terran-Vasudan Alliance (GTVA) was formed in 2345, ten years after the Great War. This treaty organization recognized the autonomy of its constituents as it provided a framework for trade and mutual defense. The Great War had transformed the enmity between Terrans and Vasudans into a lasting fellowship.

As the industry and economy of the Terran-Vasudan systems recovered, support for a more powerful GTVA gained momentum. In 2358, delegates signed into existence the Beta Aquilae Convention (BETAC), named after the system where the constitution was drafted and ratified. BETAC dismantled the governments of the Terran blocs and recognized the General Assembly, the Security Council, and the Vasudan Imperium as the supreme authorities of Terran-Vasudan space.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on April 08, 2009, 10:56:02 am
A-ha, that explains it.

Sol is a part of Terran-Vasudan space; it always has been. BETAC makes it such that the only legitimate authority in every system controlled by a Terran or Vasudan falls under the control of the GTVA. As the UEF are not the GTVA, their control of Sol is unlawful as per BETAC.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Dilmah G on April 09, 2009, 04:08:39 am
A-ha, that explains it.

Sol is a part of Terran-Vasudan space; it always has been. BETAC makes it such that the only legitimate authority in every system controlled by a Terran or Vasudan falls under the control of the GTVA. As the UEF are not the GTVA, their control of Sol is unlawful as per BETAC.

Oh yeah :yes:
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: nuone on April 13, 2009, 05:37:11 pm
A-ha, that explains it.

Sol is a part of Terran-Vasudan space; it always has been. BETAC makes it such that the only legitimate authority in every system controlled by a Terran or Vasudan falls under the control of the GTVA. As the UEF are not the GTVA, their control of Sol is unlawful as per BETAC.

Excellent point. Nonetheless, how can the GTVA claim authority over Earth, when it was FROM Earth that the GTVA claims its origins? Kind of like a child leaving home for twenty years, and returning only to control his parents lives. BETAC, in reality, has no significance outside of current GTVA space.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Titan on April 13, 2009, 06:46:03 pm
Still thing that only a total c**k would think that means the GTVA has to go to war. Haven't they heard of amendments?
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: manwiththemachinegun on September 24, 2009, 02:22:08 pm
A-ha, that explains it.

Sol is a part of Terran-Vasudan space; it always has been. BETAC makes it such that the only legitimate authority in every system controlled by a Terran or Vasudan falls under the control of the GTVA. As the UEF are not the GTVA, their control of Sol is unlawful as per BETAC.

Excellent point. Nonetheless, how can the GTVA claim authority over Earth, when it was FROM Earth that the GTVA claims its origins? Kind of like a child leaving home for twenty years, and returning only to control his parents lives. BETAC, in reality, has no significance outside of current GTVA space.

Entrenched power blocs just don't disappear because of random circumstance. The GTVA feels it has the right to govern Earth however they feel like it. Their perspective is they're retaking "THEIR" home, not allowing an independent Earth faction to rejoin the alliance.

The GTVA is warlike out of necessity, Earth wasn't nearly obliterated by 80 Juggernauts. The GTVA is more than slightly paranoid, and rightfully so. They've been operating independently from Earth for decades, barely scraping by. Now they find that Earth is a peaceful community with a radically different form of government, and the GTVA is just supposed to go along with that? It's tragic because it needn't have turned out this way, but from the GTVA's perspective, they want a quick win so they can likely give a morale boost to the rest of the alliance, as well as retask most of Sol to military industrial purposes along with supporting the outer colonies.

Granted, they're probably going to fail, but it's still a crummy situation all around.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: General Battuta on September 24, 2009, 02:24:11 pm
 :yes:

My take on it as well. With the added cultural elements in the dossiers.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: NGTM-1R on September 24, 2009, 02:49:15 pm
Granted, they're probably going to fail, but it's still a crummy situation all around.

Short of Deus Ex Machina overdrive, all evidence is they're going to win.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: manwiththemachinegun on September 24, 2009, 05:34:49 pm
Ah, but Alpha 1 isn't with them...
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: -Norbert- on September 24, 2009, 05:59:15 pm
Quote
Short of Deus Ex Machina overdrive, all evidence is they're going to win.
I'm not so sure about that.
The GTVA can only continue the war as long as the have the backing of their own citicens. And the longer this war with Sol is going and the more GTVA pilots and ships are lost, the more civilians back home in the colonies will wonder why they are even fighting their brothers and sisters.
Should the public opinion ever swing around the GTVA will have little choice but to pull out and try a diplomatic solution I guess.

Furthermore economically the GTVA was in a really bad situation, with all the funds and ressources pumped into the construction of the portal. And now they are fighting a war and that for several month now.
For all we know the GTVA might be only inches away from complete economic collapse.... or not, we simply don't know.
But considering the situation before the war, I'd guess the GTVA can only win the war fast or not at all, unless they get help form the Vasudans (either economically or even military).
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: NGTM-1R on September 24, 2009, 07:40:59 pm
Quote
Short of Deus Ex Machina overdrive, all evidence is they're going to win.
I'm not so sure about that.
The GTVA can only continue the war as long as the have the backing of their own citicens. And the longer this war with Sol is going and the more GTVA pilots and ships are lost, the more civilians back home in the colonies will wonder why they are even fighting their brothers and sisters.
Should the public opinion ever swing around the GTVA will have little choice but to pull out and try a diplomatic solution I guess.

Furthermore economically the GTVA was in a really bad situation, with all the funds and ressources pumped into the construction of the portal. And now they are fighting a war and that for several month now.
For all we know the GTVA might be only inches away from complete economic collapse.... or not, we simply don't know.
But considering the situation before the war, I'd guess the GTVA can only win the war fast or not at all, unless they get help form the Vasudans (either economically or even military).

Except that, again, militarily, it takes but a small fraction of the GTVA's forces to conduct the war at the low intensity it's being carried out in. Otherwise, it would already be over. The casuality rates and economic cost are going to be very small for the simple fact that they are not conducting large operations.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Woolie Wool on September 24, 2009, 08:21:05 pm
Granted, they're probably going to fail, but it's still a crummy situation all around.

Short of Deus Ex Machina overdrive, all evidence is they're going to win.

Not necessarily. The Sol half of the GTA immediately after the split probably started with a much larger industrial base and population as well as a much more sophisticated infrastructure. I'm sure the Lucifer gave Sol system quite a scare, and when contact was lost, for all they knew, they could be the last Terran system left (at least for a few years, anyway, assuming Terran radio communications have not degraded into total indecipherability after traveling all the way from Alpha Centauri and other nearby stars). In such circumstances, it seems logical that the United Earth government would have been pouring every available resource into turning Earth into an impenetrable fortress with the best weaponry money can buy for the last 50 years. Total mobilization, nonstop, for 50 years straight. And remember that all conquests give a significant advantage to the defender. The attacker has to subdue and conquer the defender. The defender only has to give the attacker a hard enough time to make it give up.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: The E on September 24, 2009, 08:35:26 pm
Except that, in the Blue Planet continuity, they didn't do it that way.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: NGTM-1R on September 24, 2009, 09:19:57 pm
Not necessarily. The Sol half of the GTA immediately after the split probably started with a much larger industrial base and population as well as a much more sophisticated infrastructure. I'm sure the Lucifer gave Sol system quite a scare, and when contact was lost, for all they knew, they could be the last Terran system left (at least for a few years, anyway, assuming Terran radio communications have not degraded into total indecipherability after traveling all the way from Alpha Centauri and other nearby stars). In such circumstances, it seems logical that the United Earth government would have been pouring every available resource into turning Earth into an impenetrable fortress with the best weaponry money can buy for the last 50 years. Total mobilization, nonstop, for 50 years straight. And remember that all conquests give a significant advantage to the defender. The attacker has to subdue and conquer the defender. The defender only has to give the attacker a hard enough time to make it give up.

You didn't actually read the preview fiction, did you?
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: manwiththemachinegun on September 24, 2009, 09:23:42 pm
Quote
Except that, again, militarily, it takes but a small fraction of the GTVA's forces to conduct the war at the low intensity it's being carried out in. Otherwise, it would already be over. The casuality rates and economic cost are going to be very small for the simple fact that they are not conducting large operations.

Pretty much. I imagine the GTVA has horded military power after the destruction of Capella. We've seen up to the Sixteenth battlegroup. That's a lot. Even if that doesn't include the Sol 1st fleet, the GTVA has a lot of firepower in reserve, I'm sure they're just using it to guard their systems and keep order. Thus, only one or two fleets (from what we've seen) are actually leading the attack on Earth.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Colonol Dekker on September 25, 2009, 03:22:54 am
Someone earlier mentioned gtva civil population questioning escalating deaths on the front lines and calling for an end to the war. I for one would like to think that after saving their hides from the Shivans twice that they'd have more faith, failing that i'm sure that the gtva has OCP style spin teams ready to deploy, able to doctor footage and manipulate the media.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Dilmah G on September 25, 2009, 03:51:12 am
Quote
Except that, again, militarily, it takes but a small fraction of the GTVA's forces to conduct the war at the low intensity it's being carried out in. Otherwise, it would already be over. The casuality rates and economic cost are going to be very small for the simple fact that they are not conducting large operations.

Pretty much. I imagine the GTVA has horded military power after the destruction of Capella. We've seen up to the Sixteenth battlegroup. That's a lot. Even if that doesn't include the Sol 1st fleet, the GTVA has a lot of firepower in reserve, I'm sure they're just using it to guard their systems and keep order. Thus, only one or two fleets (from what we've seen) are actually leading the attack on Earth.
Yeah, well if I were tasked with part of the strategy of such an invasion, I wouldn't honestly think it NEEDED more than two or three fleets. I mean.. IT'S A SINGLE FRAKKING SYSTEM! The GTVA is in control of like, thirty! And a good Commander always has a reserve for the next threat, who knows where the Shivans will come from next?
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: General Battuta on September 25, 2009, 08:03:48 am
If you pile all your forces into one system (or even most of them), and a substantial force gets past your blockade and into your own home space, you're going to be in really bad shape, especially if they decide to attack planets directly.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: NGTM-1R on September 25, 2009, 08:15:29 am
Yeah, well if I were tasked with part of the strategy of such an invasion, I wouldn't honestly think it NEEDED more than two or three fleets. I mean.. IT'S A SINGLE FRAKKING SYSTEM! The GTVA is in control of like, thirty! And a good Commander always has a reserve for the next threat, who knows where the Shivans will come from next?

On the other hand, with five, you could simply go to Earth orbit with three and leave two to blockade the node, threaten to turn someone's civilization into a parking lot, and probably get a surrender rather than fighting a protacted campaign.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: General Battuta on September 25, 2009, 08:18:51 am
Yeah, and then the guys on the ground call your bluff - having high level HUMINT that you need to capture Earth intact - while Mars and Jupiter blast through your node blockade and go on a rampage in the dangerously proximate Beta Aquilae.

That was the original plan, mind, but the defections really screwed the GTVA over. High-level codes, deployment information - counterintel's worst nightmare.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Dilmah G on September 25, 2009, 08:42:11 pm
Which is why Plan B should've been "Rip the mother****ers to shreds and repopulate the thing over the next 20 years." Or the more humane option of proposing an alliance, while having your ships parked over Earth in the case of hostilities.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: General Battuta on September 25, 2009, 08:50:29 pm
Neither of those would have worked for reasons described in the dossier. The first because the GTVA is not the 'bad guys', they wouldn't violate their own conventions like that. The latter because I'm pretty sure the UEF culture itself was considered dangerous.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: nuone on September 25, 2009, 10:24:46 pm
Neither of those would have worked for reasons described in the dossier. The first because the GTVA is not the 'bad guys', they wouldn't violate their own conventions like that. The latter because I'm pretty sure the UEF culture itself was considered dangerous.


With all due respect General, I humbly disagree. How can the GTVA not be the "bad guys"? Whenever a domineering force reaches a level where it can project power (Great Britain, United States, Romans, etc.), they inevitably become oppressors, because they can and do impose their interests through force. The justification for the invasion is one-sided in the least. The GTVA needs Earth's resources but being that is the weaker of the two, it sees no need to bargain. It will simply take what it wants by force; not recognizing any independence whatsoever. The aforementioned guise of "rationality" is simply a way to quiet any last vestige of conscious their forces may harbor.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: nuone on September 25, 2009, 10:38:27 pm
I just realized I contradicted a man on his viewpoint about the GTVA, when he's the one that wrote the story. <Not good> :nervous:
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: NGTM-1R on September 25, 2009, 10:51:29 pm
Bluntly, the GTVA does not need the resources of Earth; it would merely like them. However, that is not the reason this campaign is being waged in the slightest.

What ithe GTVA does need is to discredit or remove from power the Ubuntu. It needs to do this because Ubuntu represents a different option for the GTVA's own people, one more attractive then themselves. And there is a significant downside to them taking that option that they will not realize, or not care about because of its "indefinite future" nature: Everybody dies.

Straight, no joke, human and probably Vasudan extinction the next time the Shivans roll into town. Ubuntu is not a philosophy willing or able to produce the tools and the people who would be necessary for even a hope of a successful defense.

Nobody is ever going to thank the Security Council for this one. But they made the choice that had to be made for the sake of the species. It's not a pretty or an elegant choice. But that does not make it a bad one.

Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: General Battuta on September 25, 2009, 11:34:01 pm
No, feel free to contradict, nuone. The very argument that you, NGTM-1R, and everyone else are having is what the campaign is about.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: manwiththemachinegun on September 26, 2009, 12:15:36 am
Neither of those would have worked for reasons described in the dossier. The first because the GTVA is not the 'bad guys', they wouldn't violate their own conventions like that. The latter because I'm pretty sure the UEF culture itself was considered dangerous.


With all due respect General, I humbly disagree. How can the GTVA not be the "bad guys"? Whenever a domineering force reaches a level where it can project power (Great Britain, United States, Romans, etc.), they inevitably become oppressors, because they can and do impose their interests through force. The justification for the invasion is one-sided in the least. The GTVA needs Earth's resources but being that is the weaker of the two, it sees no need to bargain. It will simply take what it wants by force; not recognizing any independence whatsoever. The aforementioned guise of "rationality" is simply a way to quiet any last vestige of conscious their forces may harbor.

Not every hegemony is bad for the world, nor is every Empire. The Romans defended their allies for centuries and had unprecedented peace for a time in the Republic days, and America, though criticized greatly these days, is certainly more benevolent a Cold War superpower than if the USSR had come out on top.

I'm betting the GTVA feels threaten by Earth, because its, well, EARTH. The trend setter for all of human civilization. The fact that Earth is peaceful, and not militarized enough to face another Shivan invasion terrifies the Security Council in more ways than one I wager. Not to mention if Earth resumes "High Command" status as they probably legally have the right to do, the old guard may lose a lot of power before the rest of mankind's colonies. It's really not that surprising.

I just don't think a black/white look at the Terran factions here is the most accurate look at the picture here.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: SpardaSon21 on September 26, 2009, 11:33:28 am
Like NGTM-1R, I take the view that the GTVA is doing what is necessary for the survival of the human race.  The Ubuntu philosophy is not one suited the the type of hostile galaxy that exists in the Freespace universe, one where the Shivans could emerge at any time, anywhere, and restart their crusade against the Terrans and Vasudans.  The GTVA also needs Earth's industrial capacity to get them back on their feet and ready to repel the next Shivan incursion.  I think the GTVA has decided that being seen as the bad guys for starting a war with Earth is a justifiable price for the survival of the human race.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: -Norbert- on September 26, 2009, 01:14:46 pm
But if the Shivans really do only attack "the destroyers" it would be really ironic.
The GTVA tries to militarise Humanity to be able to defend themselfs against the Shivans, and the Shivans attack Humanity exactly because they militarise....

Of course we don't know the true reason for the Shivan attacks, so they might be right, but if they aren't it's a really nice (and tragic) irony.

But no matter if the actions of the GTVA are justified or not, in my opinion they are wrong for sure. I have no problem with using violence as a last resort, but they didn't even try any other way, they simply decided to attack based only on the results of unmaned reconnaisanse flights.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Droid803 on September 26, 2009, 02:49:50 pm
"They may only be fighting us because we have the means to fight back" is a stupid reason to go around undefended. Not only is it nothing but a theory, but it leaves no contingency plan in the event that your theorycrafting went horribly wrong. It's not really that tragic - people aren't omniscient and survival is about making the best choice based on the limited information you know.

You could always look back and say "if we this then, none of this would have happened", but that's unrealistic.

If it is necessary and logical choice of action, then I cannot condemn them for taking it. While it initially felt wrong after witnessing the events AoA and not knowing the reasoning behind it, the GTVA feels as reasonable as the UEF. Neither side on a whole is considering the reasons for why the other side is fighting, really, though the individual soldiers on the battlefield do. This makes it more interesting.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: manwiththemachinegun on September 26, 2009, 09:40:17 pm
Pretty much sums up how I feel on the matter Droid.  :yes:
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: -Norbert- on September 27, 2009, 03:03:56 am
Okay, maybe I phrased it wrong.
The militarisation alone is surely not the reason for the Shivans attack. They only attacked the GTA and Vasudans after years of war and later the GTVA and NTF after month of war.
So I guess it's not just the militarisation but the actual fighting that attrackts the Shivans attention.

So the GTVA attacks the UEF to save them from the shivans and thus making the shivans attack both sides. For me that would be very ironic.

But wether you agree with me or not, is still no reason to call me stupid....
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: General Battuta on September 27, 2009, 08:55:08 am
Certainly wouldn't call you stupid.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Snail on September 27, 2009, 10:52:05 am
Maybe it never occurred to you that the Shivans returned in FS2 because Bosch opened the portal.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: -Norbert- on September 27, 2009, 11:07:49 am
It did occur to me.
I never said it was a fact, that Shivans come only because of the war, but just a theory ("But if the Shivans really do only attack..." notice the conditional form?).

But considering that the Humans and Vasudans can build their own portal based on only scans of one original portal, isn't it very likely that the technologically more advanced Shivans could do the same if they really wanted to?
It would also fit in well with the "[....] all jumppoints to sol have been destroyed [....] I was told the Shivans can rebuild them [....]" part of the FS1 closing sequence.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Snail on September 27, 2009, 11:39:51 am
But considering that the Humans and Vasudans can build their own portal based on only scans of one original portal, isn't it very likely that the technologically more advanced Shivans could do the same if they really wanted to?
It would also fit in well with the "[....] all jumppoints to sol have been destroyed [....] I was told the Shivans can rebuild them [....]" part of the FS1 closing sequence.
Maybe I misunderstood your post.

They only attacked the GTA and Vasudans after years of war and later the GTVA and NTF after month of war.
I took that to mean that the Shivans attacked because they sensed the fighting between the NTF and GTVA.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: manwiththemachinegun on September 27, 2009, 11:42:54 am
I certainly think it's a factor, and it is ironic since the end of the T-V war was in many ways, a chance for humanity to start again. It's likely the Shivans are drawn by destructive cultures and subspace disturbances. It's also likely they engage in horrible acts of destruction for completely inane and unknowable reasons.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Droid803 on September 27, 2009, 12:28:52 pm
Okay, maybe I phrased it wrong.
The militarisation alone is surely not the reason for the Shivans attack. They only attacked the GTA and Vasudans after years of war and later the GTVA and NTF after month of war.
So I guess it's not just the militarisation but the actual fighting that attrackts the Shivans attention.

So the GTVA attacks the UEF to save them from the shivans and thus making the shivans attack both sides. For me that would be very ironic.

But wether you agree with me or not, is still no reason to call me stupid....

Maybe you read my post wrong. Let me reiterate.

I wasn't calling anyone stupid. I was saying that the line I put in quotations was a stupid reason (read: one that is unsound) to demilitarize, and that it doesn't make sense.

The idea that the Shivans attack because they sense conflict isn't stupid. It's a rather valid conclusion that can be drawn from the events of FS1 and FS2. Whether that's really the case, we don't know, but it's a good guess. However, the GTVA can't reliably act upon this because, just as easily, it could not be the case.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: -Norbert- on September 27, 2009, 12:38:45 pm
Oh well, then sorry I jumped at you like that. Considing I stated militarising instead of the actual fighting I meant you certainly got a point there....

@Snail:
I guess you misunderstood me only partially, since I meant that, but just as a possibility not a certainty (can there be anything certain about the Shivans? ;) ).

As advaned as the Shivans are, it woudn't surprise me if they would have been able to build their own portal in the nebula (which wasn't necessary due to the Trinity opening the way for them).

Come to think of it, maybe it wasn't even the Knossos that stabilized the node permanentely, but it could have been the Satanas that did that....
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on September 28, 2009, 05:27:39 am
I've always maintained that the Ancients closed down the portal during the Shivan invasion to try and prevent getting annihilated, hoping that they could defeat what forces had already made it through (ie the Lucifer and it's kin). But they failed. Then the Lucifer and it's fleet flies around a bit and goes dormant or whatever and eventually during the TVWar they return to wreak unholy havoc. But having defeated them, the Shivans are effectively gone from the immediate area (the nebula being far far away). Then Bosch being the idiot that he is opens up the portal and the shivans again have access to the area and begin to pour through.

FS1 does say Shivans can rebuild the nodes but there's no evidence that they do anything of the sort in FS2. Aside from possible conjecture stemming from the end cinematic.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: nuone on September 28, 2009, 04:14:31 pm
Earth being weak? Plausible. Yet consider the history of many western societies. In a book I read about Western Civilization and warfare, it iterated the fact that most democracies are slow to wage war. Nonetheless, when PROVOKED they unleash a destructive force unparalleled by other forms of governments (Greeks - Persians / Romans - Carthaginians / USA - Japanese). Free societies, when provoked have proven to be highly resourceful, adaptive, determined, and even unforgiving. As some implied, the GTVA did not even bother with diplomacy. Earth, with it so called "pacificism", probably would not have contested GTVA independence. Even if the GTVA win the war, they would alienate the hearts and minds of the very society they wish to protect. Negating manpower and creating a base of resistance.

It is also fitting to note that Hitler justified -in part- world domination, by claiming his people were "threatened" by other "inferior" races. The subtleties are terrifying.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: The E on September 28, 2009, 04:31:53 pm
 :wtf: What does that have to do with anything?

It is also fitting to note that Hitler justified -in part- world domination, by claiming his people were "threatened" by other "inferior" races. The subtleties are terrifying.

Mate, why did you godwin a perfectly good thread?

And I would point out that the GTVA's interest in this is not to rule over some inferior race. They wish to ensure humanities survival in a universe that has at least one species which is perfectly capable of eradicating humanity (and vasudanity as well) whenever it wishes.
Staying at a high level of readiness, being prepared to go out and start fighting at a moments' notice, that's what the GTVA military is all about. As such, they cannot justify leaving Earth (biggest economy, biggest population base...) alone in the hands of a pacifist regime that does not follow the same ideal.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: NGTM-1R on September 28, 2009, 05:13:52 pm
lol hitler comparison.

Wake up, son.

This is the state of the world: The GTVA could, at any time, be swept away by a Shivan attack. Their only hope for survival, not even of the political establishment but of the species, is strong forward defense and constant readiness. Ubuntu, merely by existing, would destroy both those things; the first by the movement of large segments of the population to Sol, the second by devaluing the military.

It is not even, in the end, about the fact that Earth's resources could save humanity, though they well could. It is about the fact that Earth's political leadership will doom humanity, and the Vasudans to boot. Not could, not even would, but will. It has nothing to do with "inferior races" or resources or population. It has everything to do with the fact that Ubuntu as a political philosophy amounts to the suicide of all known non-Shivan life.

This is not mere hyperbole. This is not justification. This is the best minds of the Terran and Vasudan races coming to this conclusion, before the plan to conquer Sol was ever considered.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on September 28, 2009, 09:21:39 pm
Does this justify a portion of the GTVA's decision to reclaim Sol by force then? I think it does. :nervous:

The sad thing is that the GTVA has faced so many horrors from the Shivans (two costly wars) that they know the repercussions of not being prepared for them. Ubuntu, on the other hand, has been cut off from the rest of the universe and the Shivans for so long that they've been able to unify themselves and are almost on the brink of reaching total harmony when the GTVA reopened the portal to Sol.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: -Norbert- on September 29, 2009, 04:13:11 am
But there is one thing the GTVA overlooked.
So far Ubuntu could succeed among the general popultion, because of the isolation of Sol. They were all alone in their system with no way in or out.
Now that the way is again open, there must be a lot of people who fear the Shivans, and whatever other horrors might be lurking out there, enough to lapse onto the philosophy of the GTVA.

As you can see at elections all over the world, fear is a great motivator. And the GTVA wouldn't even need to tell lies to get the population afraid, the truth is horrifying enough.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Dilmah G on September 29, 2009, 06:32:26 am
Keep in mind, most of the citizens who grew up under Ubuntu would never have known the Shivans. And when you've been safe and secure (in comparison) for the past lifetime, the fear factor would've worn off at least a little. And besides, Ubuntu stresses non-violence IIRC (I wouldn't vouch on my memory of WiH plot details though, :P ), the sheer prospect of multi-system warfare probably gives the Elders something to choke on.

Does this justify a portion of the GTVA's decision to reclaim Sol by force then? I think it does. :nervous:

The sad thing is that the GTVA has faced so many horrors from the Shivans (two costly wars) that they know the repercussions of not being prepared for them. Ubuntu, on the other hand, has been cut off from the rest of the universe and the Shivans for so long that they've been able to unify themselves and are almost on the brink of reaching total harmony when the GTVA reopened the portal to Sol.
I wouldn't say there were on Harmony's doorstep, and besides, I'd put my 50 on humanity getting face-****ed by the Shivans if by some miracle they found a shortcut to Sol. But if it were true that the Shivans only go into Annihalation Mode when they were provoked, then life on Sol would never have known the Shivans again with Ubuntu in power and the Tevs going along their merry way.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: NGTM-1R on September 29, 2009, 02:35:09 pm
But there is one thing the GTVA overlooked.
So far Ubuntu could succeed among the general popultion, because of the isolation of Sol. They were all alone in their system with no way in or out.
Now that the way is again open, there must be a lot of people who fear the Shivans, and whatever other horrors might be lurking out there, enough to lapse onto the philosophy of the GTVA.

As you can see at elections all over the world, fear is a great motivator. And the GTVA wouldn't even need to tell lies to get the population afraid, the truth is horrifying enough.

One of the things I've speculated about the GTVA's war against the UEF is that they don't even have to win it. They just have to look like they can. If Ubuntu cannot protect its people from the GTVA, it has no hope against the Shivans.

Also all this talk about the UEF achieving harmony may be overrated. We don't know how they've gotten their society where it is. It could be decidely unharmonious in execution (almost has to be).

And the Vishies didn't grab a UEF pilot to be their instrument. They grabbed a GTVA Terran pilot, a veteran of Capella with serious issues. I don't think harmony should be cast here in the terms everyone's chosing for it.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: -Norbert- on September 30, 2009, 05:51:57 am
I think the choice of the Vishnans can't really be taken into account here.
They didn't save the battlegroup because of how close to transcendence some of it's members were, but because they didn't belong in that universe.

For the Vishnans to communicate with the GTVA stragglers they had to choose one of their numbers, so they never were in a position to actually choose a UEF pilot.

Besides, they chose an individual (or actually two, since they communicated with both father and son) and just because one or two people in the GTVA are closer to the ideal of the Vishnans doesn't mean that UEF as a whole is less "enlightened" than the GTVA as a whole.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Aardwolf on September 30, 2009, 11:21:37 am
I'm tired of having to keep my mouth shut about that thing I saw which I shouldn't have seen.

 :mad:

Edit: In response to this:
Besides, they chose an individual (or actually two, since they communicated with both father and son) and just because one or two people in the GTVA are closer to the ideal of the Vishnans doesn't mean that UEF as a whole is less "enlightened" than the GTVA as a whole.

both of those people defected to the UEF  ;)
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Dilmah G on September 30, 2009, 11:22:28 am
wut.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Aardwolf on October 01, 2009, 02:31:10 pm
wut.

I cannot explain, because naming the subject matter would be descriptive of the subject.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: nuone on November 02, 2009, 01:42:23 pm
For all of you who defend the GTVA's actions as necessary, I quote the following,


"So certain are you?,
mmmhhhhhhehahh ahah" - Yoda
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Colonol Dekker on November 02, 2009, 03:37:34 pm
I'm with the UEF all the way. 



All my stuff is on Earth ;7
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Snail on November 02, 2009, 04:26:33 pm
I'm with GTVA, just to be contrarian.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Rodo on November 02, 2009, 07:54:39 pm
I'm with the Vishnans then, I love hanging out with neutral-talking species.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Thadeus on November 03, 2009, 07:16:05 am
Guess that leaves me siding with the Shivans.

Go team!
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: NGTM-1R on November 03, 2009, 01:39:54 pm
"So certain are you?,
mmmhhhhhhehahh ahah" - Yoda

I mock Yoda for viewing the FS universe as a binary set. That only works for his universe.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: -Norbert- on November 03, 2009, 02:34:30 pm
His black and white view doesn't work for his own universe either.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: NGTM-1R on November 03, 2009, 04:29:43 pm
No, actually it does. That's what makes it Star Wars, and the world of Star Wars was carefully constructed to allow it to be so. One may more strongly believe in the Lawful rather than the Evil part of the Empire's Lawful Evil, but you must accept both on some level.

Attempts to force grey morality through Star Wars fail as stories about that universe almost without exception.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: General Battuta on November 03, 2009, 04:30:48 pm
Huh? Shatterpoint and Traitor were the two best Star Wars stories I've read since the Zahn trilogy.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: NGTM-1R on November 03, 2009, 04:36:42 pm
That's your problem.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: General Battuta on November 03, 2009, 04:37:30 pm
You honestly didn't like them? I thought they'd be right up your alley.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: NGTM-1R on November 03, 2009, 05:42:36 pm
No, not really. One can violate the conventions of a setting as easily as those of a genre. If I wanted glaring moral ambiguity, I wouldn't have picked up a Star Wars book.

This is not to say they were bad stories. They were however bad stories for their setting...but that's hardly anything new for Star Wars in the last four or five years.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: -Norbert- on November 04, 2009, 04:43:00 am
Quote
No, actually it does. That's what makes it Star Wars, and the world of Star Wars was carefully constructed to allow it to be so. One may more strongly believe in the Lawful rather than the Evil part of the Empire's Lawful Evil, but you must accept both on some level.

Attempts to force grey morality through Star Wars fail as stories about that universe almost without exception.

Erm... you don't even have to look outside the original trilogy to see Yoda is wrong.
Yoda's point of view is that you are either on the light side or on the dark side. Once you have fallen, you can NEVER EVER come back.
And yet, look at Darth Vader....

Then there would be Lando Calrissian and Han Solo. Both of them apprenetly good people, and yet they both steal and betray. Now one can argue that they only do that to the bad guys, but does that make a crime just, if you do it to a criminal?

If we include the new trilogy, we can see Anikan killing women and children of the sandpeople, while still staying on the light side for quite some time, clearly hovering between the two exremes, something that would be impossible if it really was only pure black and while.
Then there would be Amidala pretty much kicking the old chancellor from office to save her world, risking to make the situation worse for the whole republic. This could be naivety and ignorance of the enormous impact of her actions, but for me it looks more like she puts the live of her people before the rest of the galaxy. Again something an unblemished, pure light sider shouldn't do.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: OsirisFLFan on November 30, 2009, 09:19:32 am
Ok placing the light and dark side of the force commentary  aside.... i'd fly for UEF. There something about being on the under dogs side :pimp:
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Dilmah G on November 30, 2009, 09:49:50 am
Mmm, just... That kind of society, it doesn't sit well with me (UEF). I wouldn't fight under it.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: -Norbert- on November 30, 2009, 10:14:24 am
Given the choice of just sitting still and being conquered by an enemy who attacks without any reason (from the point of view of a UEF citizen anyway) or warning without even trying to negotiate  or trying to protect my home, family and friends, I'd rather fight the invaders, no matter if my government are patifistic hippies or not.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Dilmah G on November 30, 2009, 05:33:15 pm
Well, when your backs are to the wall like that, I'm quite sure everyone would fight. But if we were given the choice, I'd pick GTVA.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: OsirisFLFan on December 01, 2009, 06:44:01 am
well for a 'pacifist' society they have some wicked ships, shame that they don't have that much firepower compared to the orestes. And those blue beam weapons are LETHAL.....
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: -Norbert- on December 02, 2009, 05:51:36 am
As anyone who played AoA through can attest, the strength of the beams doesn't matter.
The problem is, that the Raynor has so many of them, which makes disarming them in time to save your caps hard (at least if you sit in a Pegasus and try to disarm the Orestes, to save the Karuna in the last mission....).
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Commander Zane on December 02, 2009, 06:43:20 am
I'll go with the UEF for the Uriel.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: OsirisFLFan on December 02, 2009, 07:17:54 am
Me likey the uriel, but i can't wait to hear the sound effects for the rail guns on the UEF battleships
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Fury on December 02, 2009, 07:23:01 am
There's one word for the sound of mass drivers and gauss cannons UEF use: manly.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: OsirisFLFan on December 02, 2009, 07:25:58 am
There's one word for the sound of mass drivers and gauss cannons UEF use: manly.

Ahhhh, i love the smell of testosterone in the morning...smells like...victory :pimp:
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on December 02, 2009, 07:51:01 am
There's one word for the sound of mass drivers and gauss cannons UEF use: manly.

I thought the sound for all mass drivers and gauss cannons always sounds manly.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: OsirisFLFan on December 02, 2009, 08:23:28 am
As anyone who played AoA through can attest, the strength of the beams doesn't matter.
The problem is, that the Raynor as so many of them, which makes disarming them in time to save your caps hard (at least if you sit in a Pegasus and try to disarm the Orestes, to save the Karuna in the last mission....).

I'm replaying the mod again but does saving the karuna really do anything ? (other than give you a nice tingly feeling ;))
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on December 02, 2009, 10:34:19 am
You're not supposed to save it.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Droid803 on December 02, 2009, 05:13:37 pm
There's one word for the sound of mass drivers and gauss cannons UEF use: manly.

Ahhhh, i love the smell of testosterone in the morning...smells like...victory :pimp:

Isn't it "Napalm"? Or am I remembering the quote wrong...
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: NGTM-1R on December 02, 2009, 07:40:17 pm
As anyone who played AoA through can attest, the strength of the beams doesn't matter.

As anyone who's working on WiH can attest, it damn well does. :P
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Dilmah G on December 02, 2009, 08:00:15 pm
Amen to that. :)
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Nehemiah on December 03, 2009, 02:24:28 pm
As anyone who played AoA through can attest, the strength of the beams doesn't matter.
The problem is, that the Raynor as so many of them, which makes disarming them in time to save your caps hard (at least if you sit in a Pegasus and try to disarm the Orestes, to save the Karuna in the last mission....).

I'm replaying the mod again but does saving the karuna really do anything ? (other than give you a nice tingly feeling ;))

See, I tried that, but the sheer number of the Orestes' beam cannons make it impossible.  However, I just started playing around with a VP extractor and modifying table values for weapons.tbl.  I recommend setting the Balor's weapon damage to 10,000 and it's mass to 1,000,000.  Next, shoot your Balor at the Orestes and watch it fly backwards right before exploding into a huge ball of flame! :D

As for who will win this war, it would obviously be the GTVA in a truthful mod, but seeing as you play this mod on the side of the United Earth, the UE forces will emerge victorious.  I maintain that the GTVA's use of beam weaponry coupled with the fact that while Sol was separated from the GTVA, they let the Eastern religious teachers take over the world and brainwash everyone with their wimpy Zen ways.  The GTVA's desire for conquest of Sol would naturally result in their victory.

If the UE is going to win this war in a believable fashion, they will have to do two things:

1) Hijack some GTVA military hardware and reverse engineer beam cannons.

2) Kick out the Zen teachers and stop being pansies.

3a) Pray to God that a friendly GTVBs Archangel Mk. 2 with a friendly IFF code jumps into the Sol system of Blue Planet's continuity from another FS2 continuity and volunteers to fight for the UE forces.

OR

3b) An Earth Alliance fleet from the Inferno continuity ends up in the Sol system of the Blue Planet continuity due to an anomaly in the Inferno continuity's Sol gate and volunteers to fight for Sol and kicks out the wimpy Zen teachers. (Kind of like how the BP:AoA GTVA ended up in an alternate Sol when they flew through their own Sol gate in BP: AoA, right?)
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: General Battuta on December 03, 2009, 02:25:44 pm
Quote
As for who will win this war, it would obviously be the GTVA in a truthful mod, but seeing as you play this mod on the side of the United Earth, the UE forces will emerge victorious.

You're making an awful lot of assumptions about the simplemindedness of the writers there.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Nehemiah on December 03, 2009, 02:36:46 pm
Quote
As for who will win this war, it would obviously be the GTVA in a truthful mod, but seeing as you play this mod on the side of the United Earth, the UE forces will emerge victorious.

You're making an awful lot of assumptions about the simplemindedness of the writers there.

Very seldom does Alpha 1 lose. :D
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: General Battuta on December 03, 2009, 02:40:46 pm
Maybe you missed a game called 'FreeSpace 2'.  :p
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Nehemiah on December 03, 2009, 02:47:31 pm
"So certain are you?,
mmmhhhhhhehahh ahah" - Yoda

I mock Yoda for viewing the FS universe as a binary set. That only works for his universe.

Actually, if you look at Star Wars' progressive development in the real world, that the ideology of the original trilogy comes before the ideology of the prequels, you can see that George Lucas' point of view changed from 1977 to 2005.  The original trilogy is a lot more absolutist in its philosophy, with a definite good and evil, while the prequels are more relativistic, with concepts of good and evil being more fluid.  After all, even Mace Windu and Yoda agree that "only the Sith deal in absolutes."  This makes the light side of the force out to be the balanced side of the force.  The dark side then becomes anything on the extreme, be it good or evil.  I don't know, all this relativistic crap is so convulted that it is a self-defeating philosphy...and it gives me a headache to contemplate...go GTVA!!!
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Nehemiah on December 03, 2009, 02:49:28 pm
Maybe you missed a game called 'FreeSpace 2'.  :p

Maybe you missed the Inferno R1 sequel Solar Wars mod, in which the Terran Juggernaut vaporizes the SSJ Gigas.  I jumped up and clapped when I saw that!
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: -Norbert- on December 03, 2009, 03:20:50 pm
Maybe the UEF will lose the war, but in a last blaze of glory punch through the blockade into GTVA space, to inform the citizens of the atrocities commited by the invasion force, which will spark off an all-out civil war with the surviving UEF fleets making guerillia strikes in support of the rebels.

And once the GTVA is reformed into pacifists, the Shivans show up and turn everyone into militarists again.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Rodo on December 03, 2009, 04:06:57 pm
Maybe the UEF will lose the war, but in a last blaze of glory punch through the blockade into GTVA space, to inform the citizens of the atrocities commited by the invasion force

don't think the UEF needs to do that, every GTVA operative entering and exiting from Sol will surely catch some propaganda coming from earth explaining the facts, that they believe in that.. well that's another story.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Vip on December 03, 2009, 05:19:35 pm
Actually, think about it. For almost 50 years, the GTVA was cut off from Sol. Finally, they found a way to re-establish the connection. And instead of finally reuniting with their long-lost brethren and returning to the Terran homeworld, they GTVA finds itself in war. This alone should beat the hell out of GTVA's morale. They've been through the NTF Rebellion, the Second Shivan Incursion and now are fighting against the UEF. The civilian population is probably tired of all those conflicts and I can imagine riots, strikes and protests throughout the GTVA space. I wouldn't be surprised if the GTVA would lose this war - not in the military sense, but in propaganda. Especially given the supposed lack of Vasudan support for this civil war.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Droid803 on December 03, 2009, 06:49:16 pm
Honestly, if I were a GTVA citizen, I would be more concerned of my government becoming pansies like the UEF.
I don't think preaching peace will help you survive the Shivans. Even if it does, it's because of some plot device. You can't rely on plot devices.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: -Norbert- on December 04, 2009, 03:57:58 am
It's all a matter of point of view. Maybe the GTVA civies think more like this "After 50 years of seperation, we try to embrace them, but the UEF sticks a knife in out back. And now they'll pay for it." Put that on top of all the reasonings that were given, why the GTVA needed to go to war with sol and you might end up with lots of people supporting the invasion.... or not, we won't know untill the release I guess.

Since the GTVA has no scrouples to invade a more or less peacefull society without even trying to negotiate first, I don't see them having problems with making their own propaganda.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: nuone on December 04, 2009, 07:35:46 am
Damn, I only meant to use Yoda's quote to poke fun at those who like the GTVA. I didn't intend it to be construed into some metaphysical quasi-philosophical view on a darn video game.


 :eek2:
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Nehemiah on December 04, 2009, 08:49:54 am
Honestly, if I were a GTVA citizen, I would be more concerned of my government becoming pansies like the UEF.
I don't think preaching peace will help you survive the Shivans. Even if it does, it's because of some plot device. You can't rely on plot devices.

Indeed.  In the Blue Planet continuity, it seems that humans in Sol have lost their way.  The GTVA must teach them why pacifism is tantamount to suicide. 

Don't get me wrong in any of what I'm saying.  I think that Blue Planet is a great set of campaigns and a great storyline.  I just feel that it would do better without all the Hinduism and Eastern religion mixed into it.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Dilmah G on December 04, 2009, 08:53:57 am
Each to his own, I guess. But that for me, is part of the magic of BP. It's its own culture. It IS, the 23rd Century, not the 21st Century in the future, if you catch what I'm saying? I had my face inches away from the screen when I read some of those texts, and sent them to friends, who also praised them. But I agree, in the dangerous world of Freespace, pacifism will not suffice to stop the Shivans, or any other race of Superdestroyers.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Nehemiah on December 04, 2009, 08:57:30 am
Each to his own, I guess. But that for me, is part of the magic of BP. It's its own culture. It IS, the 23rd Century, not the 21st Century in the future, if you catch what I'm saying? I had my face inches away from the screen when I read some of those texts, and sent them to friends, who also praised them. But I agree, in the dangerous world of Freespace, pacifism will not suffice to stop the Shivans, or any other race of Superdestroyers.

It's not that I think we should stop striving for a better society, as I would never stand for an apathetic attitude about life, but I feel that we must not be overly optimistic either.  In six thousand years of recorded human history, our technology has advanced incredibly, but humanity as a whole has not changed all that much.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: nuone on December 04, 2009, 09:42:26 am
Nehemiah has a great point. I find it incredibly difficult to believe that human society would ever turn into such a pacifist state. Man has excelled at killing man since early history. That violent nature will never change on man's account alone.

It is also interesting to note that for thousands of years man has been "isolated" from other galactic civilizations and maintained its warring state and divisions. Are we really to believe that after being cut off from her colonies for less than a century, Earth is overtaken by wimps?

Such scenario appears unfeasible. Nonetheless, the end of BP:AoA clearly indicates that there is a special bond with our home planet that transcends political divides. That being the case the matter should have been resolved peacefully, regardless of the merits of governance. It seems ill-advised to engage in a campaign that weakens both parties to the point of vulnerability TO the Shivans. That clearly defeats the GTVA's supposed altruistic goal.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Dilmah G on December 04, 2009, 09:47:06 am
Look at Nazi Germany, what they did to the Jews. Did you honestly think, THAT, was possibly in the 20th Century?
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: General Battuta on December 04, 2009, 09:51:13 am
There are no clear-cut answers here. The whole question of the campaign is whether the UEF is too optimistic or the GTVA too cynical.

That's the whole point of the story.

Quote
Nehemiah has a great point. I find it incredibly difficult to believe that human society would ever turn into such a pacifist state. Man has excelled at killing man since early history. That violent nature will never change on man's account alone.

Again, that's the question, isn't it?

Quote
Are we really to believe that after being cut off from her colonies for less than a century, Earth is overtaken by wimps?

An Elder might ask you why you think that someone who has the strength to say 'no' to murder is a wimp. When killing is the easy decision, the killers are the cowards, the Elder might suggest.

Quote
Don't get me wrong in any of what I'm saying.  I think that Blue Planet is a great set of campaigns and a great storyline.  I just feel that it would do better without all the Hinduism and Eastern religion mixed into it.

How would one side of the struggle be presented, then?

The UEF is, in many ways, a state built on applied psychology. It is an attempt to create a society in which individuals can be truly moral instead of being forced to compromise their beliefs to serve the situation. It is a state which believes that the ends do not justify the means.

Quote
It seems ill-advised to engage in a campaign that weakens both parties to the point of vulnerability TO the Shivans. That clearly defeats the GTVA's supposed altruistic goal.

No, it doesn't. The GTVA war was launched because they feared the alternative was the collapse of the Alliance.

I suggest checking out the dossiers on the BP website.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: MatthTheGeek on December 04, 2009, 10:19:56 am
Look at Nazi Germany, what they did to the Jews. Did you honestly think, THAT, was possibly in the 20th Century?
You just went into Godwin's law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_Law) :D
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Nehemiah on December 04, 2009, 10:35:08 am
Quote
An Elder might ask you why you think that someone who has the strength to say 'no' to murder is a wimp. When killing is the easy decision, the killers are the cowards, the Elder might suggest.

If the UEF has the strength to say "no" to fighting, then we'll see their true weakness in how they say "yes" to their own quick deaths.

Quote
The UEF is, in many ways, a state built on applied psychology. It is an attempt to create a society in which individuals can be truly moral instead of being forced to compromise their beliefs to serve the situation. It is a state which believes that the ends do not justify the means.

Actually, that is only one psychological theory.  My experience in life trumps psychological theories.  Your response indicates that you believe that humanity is bent towards good.  This is not the case.  Humanity is bent towards evil ans destruction, in that people only behave morally and do good because they fear the consequences and the established governing authority.  People do as much evil as they can get away with and behave wickedly when they believe that no one is watching them.  Kind of like cockroaches filling a room that scatter and disappear when a lightswitch is turned on.  People try to not get caught in their evil, but that does not change their nature.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Dilmah G on December 04, 2009, 10:43:52 am
Look at Nazi Germany, what they did to the Jews. Did you honestly think, THAT, was possibly in the 20th Century?
You just went into Godwin's law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_Law) :D
Oh my. :P
Actually, that is only one psychological theory.  My experience in life trumps psychological theories.  Your response indicates that you believe that humanity is bent towards good.  This is not the case. Humanity is bent towards evil ans destruction, in that people only behave morally and do good because they fear the consequences and the established governing authority. People do as much evil as they can get away with and behave wickedly when they believe that no one is watching them.  Kind of like cockroaches filling a room that scatter and disappear when a lightswitch is turned on.  People try to not get caught in their evil, but that does not change their nature.
Bit of a cynical view, might I say. I do the right thing because I am at heart, a moral citizen. I don't help my friends and complete strangers out because I'm secretly a sadomasochist at heart and fearful of the government.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Snail on December 04, 2009, 10:45:09 am
You people take life (and this game) far too seriously. What happens, happens.

If I happen to be on a UEF ship when the war breaks out, I blow up Tevs. If I happen to be on a GTVA ship, I blow up Feds. Simple as that. :cool:
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Nehemiah on December 04, 2009, 10:46:32 am
Quote
Bit of a cynical view, might I say. I do the right thing because I am at heart, a moral citizen. I don't help my friends and complete strangers out because I'm secretly a sadomasochist at heart and fearful of the government.

Let's just keep telling ourselves this.

In addition, what else do you do that you consider to be not in conflict with your own sense of morality.  You who say you are moral, do you view pornography or fornicate?  Do you lie when you can get away with it?  Do you make yourself out to be greater at something than you really are?  Do you use profanity?  Do you gossip?  These are all things which society has recognized as acceptable, but are wrong nevertheless.  The behaviors categorized as moral or immoral differ greatly depending on who you ask.  So what is moral?  With so many possible definitions, consensus will never happen.  Mankind will not develop the utopia of the UEF, nor could it ever.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: General Battuta on December 04, 2009, 10:49:48 am
Actually, that is only one psychological theory.  My experience in life trumps psychological theories.

No, it doesn't, but since you obviously don't know any psychology I'm not going to get sucked into a debate on it. Actual human morality has nothing to do with 'bent towards good' or 'bent towards evil'; the fact that you're still making dispositional statements indicate you've never seen a good data set on the subject.

Quote
Your response indicates that you believe that humanity is bent towards good.

No, it indicates nothing of the sort. I'm discussing a setting, nothing to do with my own personal beliefs. It might indicate that the UEF believes that humanity is bent towards good.

I'm not going to continue discussing if you want to take things that way. The only thing I want you to understand about the WiH story is that there are no easy answers and no clear-cut good guys.

Honestly, this kind of behavior is really disappointing. I'm trying to discuss the nuances of the setting with you, and you jump on me about what I think and where I'm going to take the story.

Both sides have clear arguments for why they are on the moral high ground. It wouldn't be an interesting story if they weren't both potentially the Good Guys.

You're just going to have to trust that the story won't take sides.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Nehemiah on December 04, 2009, 10:55:29 am
Quote
No, it doesn't, but since you obviously don't know any psychology I'm not going to get sucked into a debate on it. Actual human morality has nothing to do with 'bent towards good' or 'bent towards evil'; the fact that you're still making dispositional statements indicate you've never seen a good data set on the subject.

Actually, my mother-in-law is a Licensed Clincal Social Worker, and we talk psychology all the time.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: General Battuta on December 04, 2009, 11:19:54 am
Clinical social workers =! research psychologists. If you can cite a few papers on authority effects or actual moral research you'll be in better shape.

This is immaterial, anyway; back on topic plz.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Nehemiah on December 04, 2009, 11:35:56 am
Quote
This is immaterial, anyway; back on topic plz.

Yes, I agree, but a fun tangent nevertheless!  Yes, the UEF's lack of beam weaponry will be their undoing.  Or it ought to be anyway.

BTW, which Shivan Super Juggernaut would win in a fight?  The SSJ Dante or the SSJ Gigas?
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Snail on December 04, 2009, 11:39:51 am
If you really want to think so hard about it, remember that the universe in which the UEF exists is just one of many. In another universe, the powers that evolved in Sol could be expansionist and violent... :drevil:

BTW, which Shivan Super Juggernaut would win in a fight?  The SSJ Dante or the SSJ Gigas?
The Gigas, hands down. Almost twice as long, with numerous super heavy beam cannons and the subspace weapon. But the Dante looks cooler. :P
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: nuone on December 04, 2009, 11:42:03 am
Exhaust washout anyone?

I think the fact that we debate the storyline of this game with such fervor exemplifies its appeal!

Hopefully we do not get carried away.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Snail on December 04, 2009, 11:43:56 am
BP is awesame
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: -Norbert- on December 04, 2009, 02:11:07 pm
Quote
This is not the case.  Humanity is bent towards evil ans destruction, in that people only behave morally and do good because they fear the consequences and the established governing authority.  People do as much evil as they can get away with and behave wickedly when they believe that no one is watching them.
You forget something here.
Noone (or almost noone) does evil things simply because they are evil. They do those things because they think it is the right thing to do. Or they think the gains outweight the sacrifices.
To come back to the nazis: the true beliefers in that ideology beliefed that the "lesser races" had to be eradicated for the good of humankind. They didn't think "I will kill them simply because I can get away with it."
The same goes for almost every criminal.

Quote
Do you lie when you can get away with it?
Counterquestion: Do you lie whenever you get the chance to lie?
Furthermore is lying always evil? Is it evil to tell a person who's dying a lie to make their last moments of their life more bearable? Is it evil to lie in order to save an innocent life?
Apart from being a matter of point of view, "good and evil" are also a matter of circumstance. An action that is evil in one situation can be the right thing to do in another.
Just look at the invasion of the GTVA. The GTVA think it is the right thing and it will save far more lives than it will end. The UEF thinks it's evil and done out of egoism and intolerance.
And the beauty of it is, you can't definately say which side is right.

Okay. Topicchange:
As much as the UEF culture is pasifistic, they still retained a quite effective military nontheless (not comparable to the GTVA maybe, but still far stronger than the old GTA ships). So I don't think they are "suicidal beyond rescue", they would just need a little nudge in the direction the GTVA considers to be the right one, to become able to survive in a universe filled with enemies. Total subjugation is way over the top if you ask me.

And to those who think the UEF need to capture GTVA vessels to get their hands on beams, remember the defections of the Orestes battlegroup! Among the those ships was one Anemoni (or somesuch) Logistics ship. Since those are build to repair all the other ships in the fleet they are bound to have replacements for beamturrets destroyed in battle on board or at least enough spaceparts to build new beamscannons.
And they have crew proficient in maintaining and repairing beams.
So the UEF will have the knowledge to produce their own beam weapons in time, no matter if they capture any more GTVA vessels. The questions are, will they be finished in time and can they be fit into their current vessels?
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Colonol Dekker on December 04, 2009, 03:37:08 pm
The UEF wouold win based on the fact that they posses all current alcahol production facilities.

Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Mongoose on December 04, 2009, 04:24:17 pm
This ain't KoL, Dekker. :p
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Colonol Dekker on December 04, 2009, 04:26:06 pm
They own the internet then :nervous:
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on December 05, 2009, 12:35:18 am
They probably have something better than the Internet by that time. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Droid803 on December 05, 2009, 12:44:47 am
The HoroHolonet?
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on December 05, 2009, 01:33:17 am
Maybe. :doubt:
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: NGTM-1R on December 05, 2009, 05:20:04 am
The HoroHolonet?

What do wolf spirits that studied economics have to do with it?
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Droid803 on December 05, 2009, 12:45:10 pm
Oh, nothing. Just because the two are supposedly used interchangeably now...or something.

EDIT: Wait what did all the mod icons just dissapear?

EDIT2: Oh ok I see. They'll be back....later.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Inglonias on December 06, 2009, 05:03:10 pm
I'm going to say that because of the whole chokepoint thing involved in this method of interstellar travel (yay big words!) that the UEF could probably hold of the GTVA for quite some time, assuming they don't run out of resources which I don't think would happen any time soon.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Vip on December 06, 2009, 06:38:26 pm
I'm going to say that because of the whole chokepoint thing involved in this method of interstellar travel (yay big words!) that the UEF could probably hold of the GTVA for quite some time, assuming they don't run out of resources which I don't think would happen any time soon.

The UEF doesn't seem to have enough firepower to create a powerful enough node blockade. Those GTVA beams would quickly bleed out any fleet waiting outside of the Sol node. Besides, since the GTVA is already attacking different planets in the Solar System, it seems that they have a beachhead near the node and probably a fairly well defended one. Just imagine several Mjolnirs and two-three destroyers lurking there with adequate fighter cover - the UEF would get raped.

But then again, Command isn't very clever ;)

If the UEF is to have a chance, especially since it seems that the Vasudans will join the party sooner or later, they need to develop beams and use the knowledge acquired from defected GTVA personnel to make use of the design flaws of the GTVA ships. It's already happening, seeing how the heavy, elite fighters like Ares and Erinyes are already being made useless thanks to smaller, more manoeuvrable enemy fighters and the Hecate destroyer being on the verge of destruction in the recent trailer.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: -Norbert- on December 07, 2009, 03:52:13 am
You should really read the proses on the website. Apart from being a good read, they contain a lot of information.
Yes, the GTVA does have a beachhead. The have complete and unchellenged controll of the jumpnode and I think in the 2nd battle for Neptune they also took that place (not 100% sure on that though, since it's been some time since I read the proses) after being driven away in the first attack, with heavy losses on both sides.

Mjolnirs, being unable to move or rotate and only being able to fire straight forward, are only really usefull in attacking ships that come out of a jumpnode. So putting up those beam platforms inside the sol system would be a waste of material, unless the GTVA finally fitted some manouvering thrusters onto them.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on December 07, 2009, 04:13:28 am
They could make it dockable with the Argo. That might help. :drevil:
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Vip on December 07, 2009, 07:29:55 am
You should really read the proses on the website. Apart from being a good read, they contain a lot of information.
Yes, the GTVA does have a beachhead. The have complete and unchellenged controll of the jumpnode and I think in the 2nd battle for Neptune they also took that place (not 100% sure on that though, since it's been some time since I read the proses) after being driven away in the first attack, with heavy losses on both sides.

Argh, I've actually read t but it somehow escaped my attention that WiH takes place in the last phase of the war, 18 months after it has begun. Still, my point stands, there's no chance of UEF even trying to block the node.

Quote
Mjolnirs, being unable to move or rotate and only being able to fire straight forward, are only really usefull in attacking ships that come out of a jumpnode. So putting up those beam platforms inside the sol system would be a waste of material, unless the GTVA finally fitted some manouvering thrusters onto them.

Well, then you just position the Mjolnirs so that they face not the node, but the space far in front of it. With its kickass 8000m range, it would tear apart any ship before it could even get close. Any idea how powerful are those new GTVA beams BTW ?
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: -Norbert- on December 07, 2009, 10:51:36 am
The problem is you don't have to fly into the node in a specific corridor if the retail missions are anything to judge by.
You'd have to cover 360° on all three axis'.
Title: Re: United Earth VS GTVA
Post by: Vip on December 07, 2009, 12:23:41 pm
The problem is you don't have to fly into the node in a specific corridor if the retail missions are anything to judge by.
You'd have to cover 360° on all three axis'.

But, but, but... ! Damn it, I always sucked at 3D thinking. Guess I need to play some Homeworld and Nexus ;)