Hard Light Productions Forums
Community Projects => The FreeSpace Upgrade Project => Topic started by: AthlonBoy on March 24, 2009, 08:25:11 pm
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I'm a long time fan of FS2, and a 3D modeller by trade. I figure I can get some more experience in modelling by HTL'ing one of the fighters. The GTB Boanerges is the only Terran fighter I see that hasn't had a new mesh.
Is anyone working on it already? If not, I have a second request: can someone send me a 3DS Max compatible file for the Boanerges? Either the original version or the MediaVP model would do. I tried messing around with PCS2, but failed completely at it.
I'll also try to make at least some kind of texture for it, but I can't promise anything. I've never remodelled something like this.
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Artemis bombers still need a new model and the Myrmidon needs a little bit of another touch-up.
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Ok, I've attached two different formats for the Boanerges, DAE and 3DS.
They're both in the RAR.
[attachment deleted by ninja]
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The Myrmidon already has a touch up. You'll be seeing it soon.
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Ooh nice.
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Will there be a proper cockpit this time?
Oh and regarding the Boanerges, is that black strip of paint on the front meant to represent the cockpit or something?
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Well, that was a swift response. I think I can happily say my reaction is... :3
I can see what they were gunning for there. Let me see if I can clean this up. I'll try to keep the poly count under control. I'll leave the cockpit alone for now, as you guys seem to share a singular model for it.
Also, 900 odd verticies cohabiting where 200 should be? o_O
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Go for it!! we'll back you up ^^
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Oh and regarding the Boanerges, is that black strip of paint on the front meant to represent the cockpit or something?
That seems to be the consesus. Although IMO the Boanerges is so ugly that it might be a better idea to follow the vanilla design only loosely and draw more inspiration from the concept art instead.
(http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/images/Concept_gtb_boanerges_1.jpg)
(http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/images/Concept_gtb_boanerges_2.jpg)
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Oh and regarding the Boanerges, is that black strip of paint on the front meant to represent the cockpit or something?
That seems to be the consesus. Although IMO the Boanerges is so ugly that it might be a better idea to follow the vanilla design only loosely and draw more inspiration from the concept art instead.
(http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/images/Concept_gtb_boanerges_1.jpg)
(http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/images/Concept_gtb_boanerges_2.jpg)
I strongly agree with that. Make it look like SOMETHING!
IMO the Boanerges looked like a drone, with its lack of cockpit and boxy shape. Please Fix.
That top design doesn't look too bad, if you could "borrow" the Loki's canopy or something....
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buh.
Wish I had that concept art before. :(
I'll show you what I was working on before I saw that. This is NOT FINISHED; it's just the direction I am (or was) taking, took me an hour or two. I know that I ain't touched the cockpit yet, but I'd like the cockpit model all the other fighters use before I do that.
[attachment deleted by ninja]
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(http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/images/Concept_gtb_boanerges_2.jpg)
that one is the best, the cockpit is great and the gun placements are better than on the original retail model.
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I for one really enjoyed the Boanerges. And not only its looks (which I find quite original and fresh) but also how it flies. To be honest, I always prefer the Boanerges to Ursa - it handles way better, has good gun placement and still lots of firepower (no, the turret on the Ursa does virtually NOTHING), and trying to dogfight in Ursa is even worse that trying to do the same in any other bomber. Plus, Boanerges has a smaller side and front profile.
On the other hand, I'm the guy who quite dislikes the Perseus :P
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I can easily move the guns to either side of the cockpit, but that would involve messing with how the Boanerges plays. I was under the impression you didn't move anything that affects gameplay, which is why all the new high-poly cruisers have turrets in the very same place.
I'm sure I can at least make the existing guns look manlier.
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Yup, any HTL-ifiaction should NOT alter game balance, so model dimensions and weapon placement should remain the same. This is only a visual upgrade.
As for the concept art... there are quite some interesting design elements that you could incorporate into your model, like the different cockpit styles, a way more interesting bomb bay shape or that cool underslung intake on the second pic.
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Good thinking on the intake, but I disagree about it being underslung. There's an area on the top that looks like a stupendously low-poly intake. What do you think of my interpretation?
I also tried to make the engines seem beefier and armor plated. Forgive the small defect to the left, I'm gonna fix that now.
Some new guns are on as well, in the same place as the old ones.
[attachment deleted by ninja]
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I have to say, I think that is cowing along just nicely.
Very nice indeed. I especially like the split runner on the sides leading to the engines, a nice original touch.
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You don't have to agree with anybody ;) You model it. You decide what's right.
I just pitched the conecpt art in for some inspiration, your upgrade is more faithfull to the original model, but it's already looking a LOT more like a ship and less like a random amalgamation of polygons :yes:
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I always thought the Bone was one of the ugliest and least playable ships in the game. An extensive revamp like the concept art would be excellent, but keeping it more traditional while pulling in some elements would be great too.
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While I do like the way that model is turning out, it doesn't change the fact that the Boanerges all-in-all is a pretty damn ugly ship, but you're making it look a lot better.
And I still can't pronounce the damn word.
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While I do like the way that model is turning out, it doesn't change the fact that the Boanerges all-in-all is a pretty damn ugly ship, but you're making it look a lot better.
And I still can't pronounce the damn word.
Yeah, well, you can't polish a turd. In my opinion the Boanerges as a bomber is a bit of a turd. They tried to take the Ursa and make it more manoeuvrable, sacrificing gun mounts, messing about with ammo distribution, and losing some armour. That was all a high price to pay for a slightly higher top speed.
I've tried to take that mindset with me in remaking the Boanerges; it's a big, fat bomber that they've tried to put racing stripes on, so it's rather smooth and relatively curved for a bomber that size.
Small update here; I've added simple greebles onto the less streamlined parts of the hill. These will NOT be on the final model. You might have also noticed that a meshsmooth has been used on it. I'm gonna bake the greebles and the meshsmoothed-normals into a normal map, and bake in ambient occlusion to a diffuse map (texture). On that subject, what poly count is acceptable for a high-poly fighter?
Not quite done with the missile pods. I'm gonna look at the high-poly Ursa and see how that does it.
But first things first. I really have to get to work on the cockpit. Can someone give me a model of the cockpit that the other fighters use?
[attachment deleted by ninja]
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Something about those missiles and guns just looks strange to me. 10000 or so polies is fine, so long as you have efficient LODs
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For the Lod0:
Fighters/Bombers - Less than 6000 Polygons
Cruisers/Freighters - 6000-12000 Polygons
Corvettes - 14000-18000 Polygons
Destroyers - 20000-24000 Polygons
Juggernauts - 24000 Polygons upwards
About this matter though, one of our top modelers (Vasudan Admiral), wrote this:
"Those polycounts are only vague guidelines - don't take them as rigid limits. Some better guidelines I think would be:
1) Try to bring the model to life, and use as many polys as it takes to make it look built instead of modelled.
2) While you should put on as much detail as you like, keep it within reason for a game engine. For example, hundreds of thousands of polys on a capship would be just as unreasonable as thousands of polys on a nav bouey or cargo crate.
3) Keep it UV mappable and texturable - this is 100 times more important if you don't plan on UVing/texturing it yourself. An 80 000 poly model is pretty useless if left untextured due to it's shear complexity.
4) Keep the smaller detail as modular as possible, and separate from the hull so you can put it into a detail boxed subobject for improved in-game performance.
5) Don't worry about older computers when dealing with polycounts. This may sound like I'm blowing them off, but what I mean is that it's FAR FAR easier to rip extra detail off for lower end versions than it is to add detail later when the still relatively low poly ship sticks out against the rest!"
I'm looking for the cockpit model but i suggest you to build it from the scratch and use only the textures.
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I say completely rework the cockpit. Maybe take a note from the Artemis.
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The Greebles make it look...worse...
I honestly think it looked better when it was nice and streamlined all the way though, semi-vasudan like. Greebles like that belong on Destroyers, Juggernauts, and Death Stars - I don't think a bomber would have odd protrusions like that.
I don't mind the cockpit - It's kinda like the Ulysses's and Myrmidon's. The Bike-style seat would look pretty neat on it (then again, I like the whole concept of that anyway).
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These will NOT be on the final model.
*AHEM...* :doubt:
And I don't think the Artemis canopy looks very good at all either.
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Ok...then why are they there in the first place? XD
Fixxored the last post.
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Nah, he was right to criticize, it looked bad. I was gonna bake the greebles into a normal map, but I'm gonna tone it down a lot. Like, just the odd greeble here and there on the flatter bits.
Truth is I wanted to move AWAY from a part-Vasudan look. It's an all-Terran fighter to my knowledge. But if general opinion is to stick with it, they're staying off.
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Ugh, I hate those auto-greebles (at least here, they do have their uses.) You really want to look at the existing model and texture and model what's implied there. I think a more Ulysses style of segmented armor plating would be better here.
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For the Lod0:
Fighters/Bombers - Less than 6000 Polygons
Cruisers/Freighters - 6000-12000 Polygons
Corvettes - 14000-18000 Polygons
Destroyers - 20000-24000 Polygons
Juggernauts - 24000 Polygons upwards
About this matter though, one of our top modelers (Vasudan Admiral), wrote this:
"Those polycounts are only vague guidelines - don't take them as rigid limits. Some better guidelines I think would be:
1) Try to bring the model to life, and use as many polys as it takes to make it look built instead of modelled.
2) While you should put on as much detail as you like, keep it within reason for a game engine. For example, hundreds of thousands of polys on a capship would be just as unreasonable as thousands of polys on a nav bouey or cargo crate.
3) Keep it UV mappable and texturable - this is 100 times more important if you don't plan on UVing/texturing it yourself. An 80 000 poly model is pretty useless if left untextured due to it's shear complexity.
4) Keep the smaller detail as modular as possible, and separate from the hull so you can put it into a detail boxed subobject for improved in-game performance.
5) Don't worry about older computers when dealing with polycounts. This may sound like I'm blowing them off, but what I mean is that it's FAR FAR easier to rip extra detail off for lower end versions than it is to add detail later when the still relatively low poly ship sticks out against the rest!"
I'm looking for the cockpit model but i suggest you to build it from the scratch and use only the textures.
Don't listen to those. Somebody is modeling a 16k poly fighter. :rolleyes: You just need to have efficient LODs.
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Ugh, I hate those auto-greebles (at least here, they do have their uses.) You really want to look at the existing model and texture and model what's implied there. I think a more Ulysses style of segmented armor plating would be better here.
That's what I was gonna do. :P I just used the auto-greebles to give an impression of what a texture may have. But that's still too many greebles.
I was gonna have something more to show, but Max decided it wanted a break. :(
EDIT: I re-did what I lost. It's a quick and dirty cockpit, along with new missiles, and a close-up of the new guns. Now I really must be going to bed.
[attachment deleted by ninja]
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Right on! The Boanerges is my favourite of the Terran bombers....I always liked how the design was totally off from some of the other ones. I think what you've got is a very good upgrade. I would say that its ok to make it a little harder around the edges...it wasn't a very organic looking design originally.
I do have to say I love the split vein down the side and the intake/vent top and bottom. Excellent! Ultimately its your creation...so long as its true enough to the original I think we'll be very happy to see a HT&L version of the ship!
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Be sure to match the size of the cockpit to the actual size of the model. I recall attempting to place a pilot in the Boanerges once, and it was pretty small. But nice work :yes:
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Don't listen to those. Somebody is modeling a 16k poly fighter. :rolleyes: You just need to have efficient LODs.
Um, no, how about you're wrong and try reading up on the subject before offering advice like that.
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Don't listen to those. Somebody is modeling a 16k poly fighter. :rolleyes: You just need to have efficient LODs.
Um, no, how about you're wrong and try reading up on the subject before offering advice like that.
http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,61889.0.html
Argue with them, not me. He seems to know what he's doing.
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http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,61889.0.html
Argue with them, not me. He seems to know what he's doing.
Except the modeler in that thread wasn't primarily making that ship for in-game use.
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http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,61889.0.html
Argue with them, not me. He seems to know what he's doing.
Except the modeler in that thread wasn't primarily making that ship for in-game use.
Then what else was he planing to use it for? a movie? :rolleyes:
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16k for an in-game only fighter is waaaay excessive given how close you can get to them in-game. For capships if the detail can be seen it's not really an issue, but for fighters it's just a waste.
I would stick to the 6k guideline figure as a rough limit.
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Then what else was he planing to use it for? a movie? :rolleyes:
Perhaps...just to model. Imagine that. And in any case, whether it was originally meant to be in-game or not, you're trying to compare a stand-alone, out-of-universe ship to something that's presumably going to wind up in the MediaVPs someday, where it would be used by a large number of people. Adhering to standard general guidelines for content that appears in a standard release package is a good thing, no?
Now, I suggest we end this line of off-topic conversation and let AthlonBoy continue to post shots of his excellent progress in peace.
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Yeah
I think that cockpit's looking pretty good at this stage, shape-wise and all. However
- The cockpit kinda looks like it came off an airliner. Airliner's aren't made for air combat thus explaining the lack of 360 degree visibility from the cockpit.
- Problem I have being that cockpit offers little visibility, I definetely wouldn't fly something with that kind of visibility into combat.
I know it's just a rough design for the canopy at the moment, but just as a suggestion, maybe copy the canopy style of the concept art versions of the Boanerges.
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Blaaharg, awake now.
16k polygons? Jeez, how do you even get to that point? I'm only at 3,292. I haven't even optimised the intake or the vent yet. I'm just not sure what else needs more detail on it. (Also Vengence is a much better modeller than me...)
Someone said the cockpit is too small for the pilot. That's worrying. Someone really oughtta give me the cockpit interior stuff so I can at least see what I'm dealing with.
IceFire: I know the Boanerges never looked very sleek, but... the more I look at the old one, the more I think it was meant to be a curved design. Have a butchers at the image I've attached. Pay close attention to the midsection, it seriously looks like an over-optimised curve shape. Same goes for the engines. The underside also has these stubby organic looking 'fins' on the hull, and the top intake vent I did was put there because that area looked sloped and curved.
You're probably right in that the Boanerges could do with being a bit boxier, but I just want you to see where I'm coming from.
[attachment deleted by ninja]
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http://www.freewebs.com/twisted-infinities-va/MiscStuff/Cockpit.zip
That'd be about the closest thing to what you want that we have, and I think it would need some adaptations to fit the boanerges cockpit shape. It doesn't need to be a perfect fit though - you would only see this cockpit from the outside. A proper system to view a fully functional cockpit from the inside doesn't exist yet.
Oh, and interesting direction you've taken with this. Could be fun to see where it ends up. :)
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Then what else was he planing to use it for? a movie? :rolleyes:
Perhaps...just to model. Imagine that. And in any case, whether it was originally meant to be in-game or not, you're trying to compare a stand-alone, out-of-universe ship to something that's presumably going to wind up in the MediaVPs someday, where it would be used by a large number of people. Adhering to standard general guidelines for content that appears in a standard release package is a good thing, no?
Now, I suggest we end this line of off-topic conversation and let AthlonBoy continue to post shots of his excellent progress in peace.
Then what's the point of showing it? Just to say "Hay guyz, lewk @ dis!" then have a bunch of people stare in awe wishing it could be in the game?
AthlonBoy: So far what you're making is turning out really well I belive.
Dilmah G: Then again, what canopy (Let alone ship design) allows for greater than 180 degree coverage? :P
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Then what else was he planing to use it for? a movie? :rolleyes:
Perhaps...just to model. Imagine that. And in any case, whether it was originally meant to be in-game or not, you're trying to compare a stand-alone, out-of-universe ship to something that's presumably going to wind up in the MediaVPs someday, where it would be used by a large number of people. Adhering to standard general guidelines for content that appears in a standard release package is a good thing, no?
Now, I suggest we end this line of off-topic conversation and let AthlonBoy continue to post shots of his excellent progress in peace.
Then what's the point of showing it? Just to say "Hay guyz, lewk @ dis!" then have a bunch of people stare in awe wishing it could be in the game?
AthlonBoy: So far what you're making is turning out really well I belive.
Dilmah G: Then again, what canopy (Let alone ship design) allows for greater than 180 degree coverage? :P
Well there was barely 180 degs on the original. I'm just saying I want to be able to look around, and besides it was a rough canopy as well (I think)
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Yeah, he said it was just there to see how it looked, I was just poking fun about the rest of the ship's canopies. ;7
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Yeah, he said it was just there to see how it looked, I was just poking fun about the rest of the ship's canopies. ;7
:lol: Well a 360 deg cockpit would be kinda hard.
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I can't find it, but I remember a ship design that had a gyro-style canopy that allowed for near-360 degree visuals, all up to the back of the ship itself.
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Well, real life has to intervene at this point. But before I go I can show you what I made of the cockpit in a few minutes. The pilot has a 180 degree view of everything in front of him.
Your praise is much appreciated. :)
[attachment deleted by ninja]
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Your praise is much appreciated. :)
// gets down on knees
// grovels in awe of work done thus far
// sacrifices 3 Barney the Dinosaur toys on an altar to speed this model onto completion
// wakes up in a daze, covered in fluffy toy stuffing
Keep up the good work! ;) :p
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Quit that. Inflate my ego too much and I'll never get it done. :p
I'm struggling about what I should do next. I want to start on texturing, but I don't want to get into THAT minefield until the model itself is set in stone. So I ask anyone here; what does this model need? Give me all your suggestions, no matter how trivial or far fetched.
Once that's done, I'll unwrap the UVs manually and get a good base for texturing done. Then I'll make a normal map using a high-poly meshsmoothed model, bake in ambient occlusion to the texture, and try to give it a relatively clean look. It's turned out to be a very smooth model, and assuming that doesn't change, I'll texture it with that in mind. I'll also look to the new Valkyrie for inspiration, that's the kind of job I want to do on the Boanerges.
Since my last post, I've fixed all the little errors I could find in the mesh, got the smoothing groups right (for the meshsmoothed normal map), removed any unneeded polys and vertices, got the edge loops nice and smooth. Just general housekeeping. Here are some before and after pictures so people can judge if I've strayed too far from the original mesh.
[attachment deleted by ninja]
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Reactor panels or windows? Other than that, I dunno.
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Perhaps some plates or details on the engines ? Look at the original textured version, it has some "plates" on the engines.
(http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Image:Boanerges320x240.jpg)
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I'm sorry, but you seriously need to redo that cockpit. It doesn't feel like there's any design intent behind it at all, just a bunch of polygons made into glass. Either go for something like a bubble cockpit, with a smooth curve on the front, or a hard-edged cockpit like the concept art. I personally think the texture implies something like the Ulysses cockpit.
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Definitely an improvement over the original. However the cockpit does seem a bit large. Its your model though take the direction of your choosing.
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Ego massaging aside, that model looks very [insert any expletive you care to choose] awesome. I'm with the previous posters, in that I think it just needs textures slapped on it. It might even be a good idea to slap a texture on and let us have a look, because that would probably help give people ideas.
I have never liked the Boanerges as a ship, but you have most definitely made a silk purse from a sows ear. :pimp:
My only suggestion at this point would be the greebles behind the cockpit look a bit shallow. They would look better with a bit more depth, but again, when you put a texture on them as they are, they would probably look alright.
My two cents worth, anyway.
I'm sorry, but you seriously need to redo that cockpit. It doesn't feel like there's any design intent behind it at all, just a bunch of polygons made into glass. Either go for something like a bubble cockpit, with a smooth curve on the front, or a hard-edged cockpit like the concept art. I personally think the texture implies something like the Ulysses cockpit.
:eek2: That's a bit harsh, no? What he's done is quite a good start, and with a bit more work, I'm sure it will look great.
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May I suggest this as a possible change to help?
Delete the RED areas and make them transparent to make it much better along with the Yellow too. Yellow could be left as an option.
Hope this gives you some ideas. :yes:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v104/Onyxwing2004USA/BBombercockpit.jpg)
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Cockpit. Roger that.
Will this do?
EDIT: Fgharghle. The HUD display is clipping the glass. I'm gonna move it, but I won't bother with a re-render. Just ignore it's there for now. :P
[attachment deleted by ninja]
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I think it would be better to use a Ulysses-style cockpit here. The standard fighter cockpit doesn't seem right in this place, IMHO.
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What about a cockpilot, possibly placed near(and not behind) the pilot? I think there's enough space... :)
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I think it would be better to use a Ulysses-style cockpit here. The standard fighter cockpit doesn't seem right in this place, IMHO.
I agree. :nod:
What about a cockpilot, possibly placed near(and not behind) the pilot? I think there's enough space... :)
I doubt the Boanerges needs a co-pilot. No turret. Plus, the cockpit area is quite cramped already.
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What about a cockpilot, possibly placed near(and not behind) the pilot? I think there's enough space... :)
Or a side-by-side cockpit like the one found in an EA-6B Prowler (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EA-6B_Prowler)?
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That's what I said. Oh, the original A-6 Intruder is also a good example. :nod:
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Sorry. Must have misread your post. :)
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What would the copilot do though?
As I said, there's no turret to be a Gunner for.
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I think there are a few body panels suggested in the current textured version that don't show themselves in the current model.
I'm betting those will probably remain texture details, But I would like to see what you've done on the thrusters section and are you intending the panel plating to be textured there as well?
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What would the copilot do though?
As I said, there's no turret to be a Gunner for.
It's not weird to have a copilot in a bomber. On a side note, turrets are controlled by computers so gunners aren't necessary. I believe a copilot helps with aspect lock, navigation, transmissions and such.
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The Zeus doesn't have a turret and carries 2 crewmen, IIRC.
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Maybe the success of the Boanerges is its relatively low cost. Anyway, just make it look "right". If it looks weird, don't force it to work.
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Maybe the success of the Boanerges is its relatively low cost.
Yeah, it's tech description implies as much. :nod:
The Zeus doesn't have a turret and carries 2 crewmen, IIRC.
I concede, then. If the copilot fits in the cockpit, go ahead.
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lowering the roof of the cockpit to make it fit the upper part of the pilot seat, and widening the cockpit at the bottom part... something like the F-117 maybe? just to brake with the hole round thing of the model.
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MUCH nicer cockpit. THANK YOU for doing that. It's already a whole lot sleeker and better designed. From here, perhaps you can make it wider? And perhaps you could pull the sides out so (from the top, facing up) it's more of a / \ shape instead of | |. Then, maybe, you would have room for two pilots side by side.
Also, feel free to remodel the cockpit interior to something more suitable. The model provided to you is by no means the only one that can be used.
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I concur, MUCH better cockpit. If you still want to keep the cockpit maybe borrow the F-14's design and move the pilot forward and place the second one behind him, bringing in the sides if need be.
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So many ideas for the cockpit. Awesome.
I had a look at the Ulysses cockpit, but while the shape was similar, it didn't really fit with the concept of a big ol' heavy bomber.
A two-man cockpit like an F-14, with the navigator behind the pilot, only really made sense for fast, streamlined aircraft where aerodynamics are important. Side-by-side made the most sense for a bomber.
Have a butchers at these.
[attachment deleted by ninja]
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:yes: Now, that looks good.
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Wow, those guys look like they were flattened before getting put in.
But that's not your fault. I like the model, top notch. :yes:
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Looked better with one guy...
But the model is dead sexeh.
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Looks good
Maybe work a bit on the pilots after you've nailed the rest of the ship, they looked flattened as Titan said, but that's minor really :)
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I doubt the pilots need any work. Let me show you what they'll look like from an in-game distance.
This render shows what it looks like, stationary, at point blank range. Unless you manually manoeuvre yourself in front of a friendly Boanerges when there are no enemies around, you will never see the cockpit any closer.
If anything I need to go in and delete all unnecesary polygons, and weld all the vertices together into one element. I've burned up a whole lot of polys on the pilots as is. (I'll keep the cockpit and pilots as separate sub-objects for LOD purposes.)
[attachment deleted by ninja]
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Ah Fair enough
That looks fine
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Still... Instead of looking like 2 pilots side by side it looks like someone was trying to make a symmetrical model but mirrored it a bit too much on one side or something... Urgh...
The models great, but... Blargh...
Ignore me, I'm a dimwit.
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Ooh, lovely curves! It looks a heck of a lot more Vasudan now, great job.
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Looking good, keep it up.
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Yus :yes: looks good.
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Here's where things fall apart. I'm a really bad texture artist. :(
I've put up a screenie showing a quick mockup of what a texture may look like. Yes, I know there's pretty much no detail to it. I've fully UV-unwrapped everything so it's perfectly ready to BE textured... I just don't think I'm the man to do it. It really hurts to say that.
You'll have to forgive the dark spots, I didn't adjust the Max lighting.
If anyone else wants a crack at texturing it, they have little work to do. All the relevant polygons have been flattened, which took me pretty much all day.
[attachment deleted by ninja]
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Coooooooooool
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If anyone else wants a crack at texturing it, they have little work to do. All the relevant polygons have been flattened, which took me pretty much all day.
Got linky?
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That actually looks very beautiful. Something more detailed but with more or less the same color scheme would be perfect. :yes:
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Looks good now. Though I might suggest modeling some of the details from the texture (plus other random macro-greebles) into the model. Obviously, not too much, but I think it would really add something to the model.
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How about this?
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/Shodan_AI/Boanerges1.jpg)
Course I'll be diverging from the concept art soon.
Edit: Opss thought this was in the Mod forum :nervous:
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I love the concept texturing, though it is a bit of a change from the current texture coloring.
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The model looks great, although the cockpit internal model looks pitched forward somewhat... but that really isn't a problem as such due to lack of gravity.
I haven't ever tried texturing anything but if you could supply a map with baked-in ambient occlusion (the model looks like it would really benefit from it, with all the... occluded areas it has) and the UVmap layout and possibly the current placeholder version (which doesn't look bad as it is by the way), I would like to give it a spin even if someone with more experience will complete an awesomer texture. If nothing else it would be an interesting exercise.
The concept model looks really cool too. In fact it looks more related to Zeus and Medusa than the Boanerges. The colours are lovely as well.
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I got a question ( not sure if it was asked already ), but how will the viewpoint be placed? It'd have to be placed like in the original ( at the middle of the cockpit? ), but then what about those people that play with cockpits enabled? Won't having a viewpoint in the middle of 2 pilots look weird to them?
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Good point. It might be necessary to have the single pilot version as the default upgrade model (which would be incorporated into the MediaVP's) and two-pilot version as a mod... which I would certainly be using in the end. It just makes more sense to have a co-pilot/radar intercept officer on board such a huge ship.
Personally, I would not mind having the viewpoint 0.5-1 metres to the left from the centerline, especially considering the fact that Boa is not meant for ship-to-ship combat and has pitiful primaries no matter how well you can aim them, so changing the viewpoint location wouldn't in my opinion really change the balance all that much. It doesn't really make that much difference in the end.
If two versions becomes necessity, I would recommend keeping the external dimensions of the cockpit same and just fit the single-pilot cockpit in the middle of it.
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Well I wouldn't mind having the viewpoint between the two pilots
But that's just me, how would the game work if the viewpoint was slightly off centre? Would you appear to be yawing left ever so slightly when you accelerate?
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Well I wouldn't mind having the viewpoint between the two pilots
Well when the cockpit support comes online you would notice a discrepancy between your apparent position in cockpit and the viewpoint's position on the ship itself...
Or if you used the "show ship" flag you would see both pilots on your both sides.
But that's just me, how would the game work if the viewpoint was slightly off centre? Would you appear to be yawing left ever so slightly when you accelerate?
No. The only thing you would notice is that the forward firing guns would be slightly off from the aiming line, but I think it could actually be beneficial considering the positioning of the guns: You could probably have the port side weapon directly below the viewpoint (or very close to it) and the starboard side weapon would be on the right side normally. It probably wouldn't affect accuracy especially since the Boa's two primary weapons are positioned so close together...
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Okay that sounds alright then :yes:
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Was having the second pilot behind the first one ever considered?
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Was having the second pilot behind the first one ever considered?
Yes but the consensus was it fits lighter, more agile craft better. And traditionally with bombers, pilots sit side-by-side as co-operation between bomber crews usually involved crew members being able to take over jobs for the other, so they would need to be in the same space so to speak.
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I bet most of us wouldn't mind a cockpit view set off to one side. I bet it'd look pretty cool. :P
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Yes but the consensus was it fits lighter, more agile craft better. And traditionally with bombers, pilots sit side-by-side as co-operation between bomber crews usually involved crew members being able to take over jobs for the other, so they would need to be in the same space so to speak.
Side by side looks too cramped. It has heaps of vertical space to have the second pilot/nav behind and raised.
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Yes but the consensus was it fits lighter, more agile craft better. And traditionally with bombers, pilots sit side-by-side as co-operation between bomber crews usually involved crew members being able to take over jobs for the other, so they would need to be in the same space so to speak.
Side by side looks too cramped. It has heaps of vertical space to have the second pilot/nav behind and raised.
Well as was said before, side by side fits a heavy, lumbering bomber more than a sleek single file design does. And the Ursa's cockpit is thin compared to the rest of it, dictating an F-14 style cockpit.
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The second pilot would be able to take control of the ship while being behind as well... Kinda. And having a cockpit view off-center would be annoying. Very annoying.
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The second pilot would be able to take control of the ship while being behind as well... Kinda. And having a cockpit view off-center would be annoying. Very annoying.
It would only be minor
and side-by-side allows for close co-operation between the crew
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The second pilot would be able to take control of the ship while being behind as well... Kinda. And having a cockpit view off-center would be annoying. Very annoying.
It would only be minor
and side-by-side allows for close co-operation between the crew
I'll agree to that if the second pilot is a woman.
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The second pilot would be able to take control of the ship while being behind as well... Kinda. And having a cockpit view off-center would be annoying. Very annoying.
It would only be minor
and side-by-side allows for close co-operation between the crew
I'll agree to that if the second pilot is a woman.
I would abolish seat-belts if the second pilot was a woman :)
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Right. Here's the model and the texture; normals and AO will have to be in a double-post. I know that the texture is in a JPG format, but it was the only way to get it to fit within the 1024KB max. The quality is high enough that there is no real difference.
The model detail0 still has all the subsystem helpers correctly attached to it. The glass and the cockpit are separate objects, in case anyone wanted to change them.
[attachment deleted by ninja]
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And here are the normals and ambient occlusion maps.
[attachment deleted by ninja]
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Thanks for the UVmaps! Will the .pof model be next?
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I have no idea how to get models into or out of POF files. Someone else will have to put my stuff together.
I'm a bit preoccupied right now as some little **** hacked my Steam account. I wish I was joking.
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That normal map (even as a PNG, thank you) shows a lot of interesting issues.
The Diffuse, it would be nice to see a clean PNG version instead of the JPG. I also notice it has quite a lot of dithering in it.
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That normal map (even as a PNG, thank you) shows a lot of interesting issues.
The Diffuse, it would be nice to see a clean PNG version instead of the JPG. I also notice it has quite a lot of dithering in it.
The dithering you see is noise that I added to give it a rough texture. Clean colours looked too pristine.
Here's the unaltered, noisless diffuse for you, not that it's worth using.
[attachment deleted by evil Tolwyn]
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You'd be surprised. Thank you.
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It looks like a Vasudan face...
Nice model work though :)
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I've been watching the progression on this, as well as the Artemis and Colly, with great interest. How are they all coming along? My hard drive hungers for them, you see, and if I don't appease it soon I dont' know what might happen.
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Well, they'll probably be in the 3.6.11 mediavps. So you'll have to be patient.
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But my hard drive is a cruel taskmaster and will not accept this!
In all seriousness, as much as I do want to see these models (and more) in game, I've got enough patience to see what the modellers & texturers can do with whatever amount of time they need. It sure beats anything 'rushed to market' so to say.
Slightly unrelated, I've not coded a thing since being on an old apple2 back in high school... are there any links that lead to some sort of noob-friendly tutorial about how to make a model for fsopen? Starting from scratch, of course... making them model itself and getting that part done right, texturing, the whole 9 yards. That'd be something I'd spend a lot of time messing with. Who knows, something like that might generate some extra modellers/texturers for further updates
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I will try to convert your model up after I get to computer with Truespace.
Of course if somebody other want to do it ,no problem.
I will release it after conversion ,so you will not have to wait until 3.6.11 mediavps.
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I still think it needs some more details modeled in :doubt:
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I have to announce you to don't count on me with this conversion ,because I'm gonna lost access to Truespace and won't be able to continue until I get a new one ,and I want to start over ,so don't expect it converted soon.
Somebody else can do this conversion ,of course I will try to convert it when it will be possible ,but it will be not possible for some time. :)
People deserve HTL Boanerges ,I cannot do it anytime soon ,so maybe somebody other.
My previous one was messed up because of TS3 ,now I'm going to get TS7.6
I wish good luck to any converter who wants to do this ship. :yes:
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Any news on this? It looks promising. I'm one of the few that actually flies the Boa.
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You are? I like it.
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I like it/fly it enough for it to warrant a HTL model IMO. Same thing for the Artemis.
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I fly because
1: It looks cool
and
2: I like being canonical. I don't use the Artemis DH, for example.
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2: I like being canonical. I don't use the Artemis DH, for example.
Mind me asking what's non-canonical about the DH?
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He may be refering to the fact that the Artemis DH is not used in the main FS2 campaign...
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Wait, it's not? I'm sure I've flown it on 'The King's Gambit'...but I might be thinking of a co-op version of the mission.
For some reason I thought you earned it if you completed the first SOC loop.
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You do.
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Go and complete first SOC loop Titan ,you will get Artemis D.H. after it. (after second one it allows you to fly Ares).
I nearly always flew D.H. version.
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Despite the tech description, the Artemis DH isn't an improvement of the Artemis, so...
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I figured it out long after passing main campaign ,I got intrested in modding after I played Inferno which was first mod I tried.
I thrusted tech description back then.
Plus ,D.H. version looks better than regular IMHO.
Back on topic I would like to see HTL Boanerges converted (is still don't have TS to work on it myself).
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I figured it out long after passing main campaign ,I got intrested in modding after I played Inferno which was first mod I tried.
I thrusted tech description back then.
Plus ,D.H. version looks better than regular IMHO.
Back on topic I would like to see HTL Boanerges converted (is still don't have TS to work on it myself).
Anyone else then? By reviving this thread I'm basically swimming in a sea of modders :lol:
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Go and complete first SOC loop Titan ,you will get Artemis D.H. after it. (after second one it allows you to fly Ares).
I nearly always flew D.H. version.
I know that. But I don't like to think of the SOC stuff as part of my FS2 campaign persona.
I still play them, of course. :nervous:
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Back on topic I would like to see HTL Boanerges converted (is still don't have TS to work on it myself).
Aren't the FSU guys working on it?
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Ok, all of these 'attachment deleted' notes are pissing me off. Upload your screenshots to a real host, so I can see them.
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Despite the tech description, the Artemis DH isn't an improvement of the Artemis, so...
I really think that was a bug, and deserves to be fixed.
It's not like you're going to break retail compatibility or whatever, since the DH doesn't show up in any missions.
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It'd still be messing with retail stats, I'd prefer if any mods use it to amp it's stats however.
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I really think that was a bug, and deserves to be fixed.
It's not like you're going to break retail compatibility or whatever, since the DH doesn't show up in any missions.
But as the Artemis D.H. IS usable in missions, in the Retail campaign (I know, I've used it), it's stats, however unintentional they may be, will not be altered without a majority consensus and full on testing.
You may feel free to create your own personal TBM for it though if you wish.
And to be more on topic, how are thing progressing with the Boanerges? Who's is currently doing what with it?
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Ok, all of these 'attachment deleted' notes are pissing me off. Upload your screenshots to a real host, so I can see them.
X2 :P
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Ok, all of these 'attachment deleted' notes are pissing me off. Upload your screenshots to a real host, so I can see them.
X2 :P
X3 :P
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X3: Terran Conflict. :P
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No offense to the modelers working on the project, but the concept art (and the associated development) is just so far-fetched from what is actually seen in-game that I really would be opposed to seeing something like this in an official MediaVP release. However, that is merely my opinion...
-Thaeris
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Considering that it still adheres largely to the existing retail model, and that anything else to take it's place (according to your opinion) would likely be a severe departure from it, then this model (once it is completed and if there are no other or better models available by that time), will probably go in the MediaVP's.
Feel free not to play with it though.
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I think he means the bright teal and pink model that's a few pages back. I don't think anyone is suggesting to put that in the mediavps.
The "real" boanerges model that is pending completion is actually not visible in this thread because all the attachments with screenshots died. However, that model is perfectly canon. It's basically the same, except it's curvier, has a cockpit, and is several times sexier, so don't worry about it ;)
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I think he means the bright teal and pink model that's a few pages back. I don't think anyone is suggesting to put that in the mediavps.
The "real" boanerges model that is pending completion is actually not visible in this thread because all the attachments with screenshots died. However, that model is perfectly canon. It's basically the same, except it's curvier, has a cockpit, and is several times sexier, so don't worry about it ;)
I better hope not, it was never meant to be canon :P
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Well, it should be. ;)
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If you actually finished up that unfortunately-coloured version a few pages back, is there a chance of a release? I much prefer it to the canon, and would love to play with it.
When I first saw the credits playing retail, I got a "wow, they really realised that concept" vibe for most of the pieces. Then I got to the boner-nazi and sort of had a "what were they thinking" look on my face.
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If you actually finished up that unfortunately-coloured version a few pages back, is there a chance of a release? I much prefer it to the canon, and would love to play with it.
When I first saw the credits playing retail, I got a "wow, they really realised that concept" vibe for most of the pieces. Then I got to the boner-nazi and sort of had a "what were they thinking" look on my face.
You mean this:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/Shodan_AI/Boanerges1.jpg)
That is not the boanerges. That was an example at UVMapping layout.
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If you actually finished up that unfortunately-coloured version a few pages back, is there a chance of a release? I much prefer it to the canon, and would love to play with it.
When I first saw the credits playing retail, I got a "wow, they really realised that concept" vibe for most of the pieces. Then I got to the boner-nazi and sort of had a "what were they thinking" look on my face.
You mean this:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/Shodan_AI/Boanerges1.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/Shodan_AI/Boanerges1.jpg)
That is not the boanerges. That was an example at UVMapping layout.
Huh??
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If you actually finished up that unfortunately-coloured version a few pages back, is there a chance of a release? I much prefer it to the canon, and would love to play with it.
When I first saw the credits playing retail, I got a "wow, they really realised that concept" vibe for most of the pieces. Then I got to the boner-nazi and sort of had a "what were they thinking" look on my face.
You mean this:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/Shodan_AI/Boanerges1.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/Shodan_AI/Boanerges1.jpg)
That is not the boanerges. That was an example at UVMapping layout.
Huh??
What he means is that is in no way how the thing is supposed to look. It's a texture layout, so a texturer knows what to paint what color. I don't have any idea why anyone would want to seriously fly that.
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Oh, no no. I'd fly that ship. It's just not what I know of as a Boanerges.
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Ohh... actually it's just the basic colors max applies to objects. I haven't even gotten to the uvmapping stage yet, although I do see the similarity now.
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Not colorful enough.
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Ohh... actually it's just the basic colors max applies to objects. I haven't even gotten to the uvmapping stage yet, although I do see the similarity now.
That rainbow thing is actually based off one of the concepts for the boanerges. That's why it came up in this thread at all, methinks.
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If you actually finished up that unfortunately-coloured version a few pages back, is there a chance of a release? I much prefer it to the canon, and would love to play with it.
When I first saw the credits playing retail, I got a "wow, they really realised that concept" vibe for most of the pieces. Then I got to the boner-nazi and sort of had a "what were they thinking" look on my face.
You mean this:
snip
That is not the boanerges. That was an example at UVMapping layout.
I do mean that. I'm aware it is not the canonical boanerges, but it closely resembles the concept art of the boanerges, which I prefered to the canonical model.
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I'd split this thread but the old images and therefore content seems to have disappeared.
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In that case, does anyone happen to have an image of the MediaVP candidate for the Boanerges? I'm curious to see it now...
-Thaeris
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I think the Boanerges model/texture needs a bit more work before we can consider putting it in the mediavps...
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I think the Boanerges model/texture needs a bit more work before we can consider putting it in the mediavps...
No kidding. It's far from done.
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oh god my head hurts
(http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/5835/boanerges.jpg)
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Yeah, mine too! What's wrong with it? I've already have it ingame and it looks fine. :(
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Needs new textures. Anything to make it lose its plastic look.
And holycrapambientocclusionandselfshadowing.
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Would it kill you to add a few details along its body?
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As I haven't gotten in to conversion of models into POFs, could those of you with POFs either post a link here of POF+Textures and or PM it to me? Thanks.
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(http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/2797/boawhatnow.jpg)
I'm just procrastinating now. I have absolutely no idea how to texture the the thing. None. Kaput. The prospect scares the daylights out of me.
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the primaries look kinda squareish compared with the rest of the hull IMO, the rest of the ship looks just amazing IMO.
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:yes:
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7,088 polygons, cockpit and all.
What I really need a hand with is texturing.
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post the finished model file, someone might grab it and start working on it.
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Well, I might do more to it yet, I keep nipping and tucking vertices into the right place to keep it all looking smooth. But I can lob up a file to see if anyone can show me how texturing is done. (And make me feel inferior in the process...)
Is a 3DS Max file alright? Only, I haven't quite gotten the Max-to-POF conversion down, and it'd be best to minimise how many times the model goes in the blender.
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Remember that the top of the missile banks is where the retail model has the squad insignia. I'd hate to lose those.
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Oh good, I was having problems getting the smoothing groups right on the greebles. I shall take those out then.
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(http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/8880/rageoriginalu.jpg)
I was desperately trying to unwrap this again, but Max decided it doesn't like me, and the work was lost. I had forgotten how infuriating texturing is. I don't know how you guys do it.
Please, man. Someone throw me a bone, texturing is unfathomable to me. :(
http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/1400541/Boanerges%2097.max
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:confused:
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You could contact Freespaceking or someone like that to give it a shot.
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Here's a little helpful hint:
Customize->Preferences->Files-> Checkmark Increment on Save.
This way if it does go bad, you can always revert to a good version. each save will change the filename extension (ship.max, ship1.max, ship2.max....)
Also checkmark Enable Autobackup , number of backups: 99, backup interval 5 minutes (give or take).
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I can't endorse the new canopy. Sure everyone hates the Boa, but why make it look like it needs to be hated?
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Frankly, the over all design of the Boa is not really condusive to an agreeable interpretation any way you put it. But frankly, this model IS here, and it IS about as acceptable as it'll get unless someone does another one, so I'd rather see this one done and in game with glowpoints, textures etc.
Anybody that does do the texturing for this: when you put up a releasable package, make sure that there is a (if DDS) uncompressed versions available. PSDs are nice ass hell to (or if using Gimp, whatever layered format that saves to).
This will provide the best flexibility in getting it into the MediaVP's if just a diffuse map is made so that we can make the other required maps off of it.
Same goes for if somebody does up a total package job. It just makes our lives easier.
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Some of the greebles on the front of the engine block are kinda random-looking...
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To be honest, the detailing on the missile pods and engine pods seems random and out of place, I would suggest that you remove them and try something else (though it isn't your fault, the retail Boa maps were bad and had no detail at all).
It looks as if it has far too many missile holes (seriously, you don't need that many :P).
And lastly, I don't like how on the engine pods you just extruded the whole region on it, it just looks weird and probably would look even weirder textured.
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:yes:
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Yes, but anything is better than the apparently very low poly retail version.
Wow, you're so smart. :doubt:
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.
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I actually happen (for once) to agree with High Max. (Don't let it go to your head)
Again, while the currently proposed model may not have everything everybody is looking for a Boanerges to be, it IS true to the most part of the original, while still being an update. And as I don't see _any_ body else doing one, if this one get's supplied to the FSU with textures (again, even just an original uncompressed Diffuse will do and be preferred) then it is what the FSU will use.
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Back on topic...
The file won't open in my copy of Max, it looks like it was saved in a much newer version.
Can you export it as a 3DS Max 6 file?
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I will say the general shape seems to have the FS2 feel to it... and I approve of it as a whole. But the interpretation of the canopy is... odd. Heck, there's even a Boa in the FS2 mainhall that gives an abstract of all the features! It even shows the canopy... which looks a lot like the one seen on the retail model.
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I will say the general shape seems to have the FS2 feel to it... and I approve of it as a whole. But the interpretation of the canopy is... odd. Heck, there's even a Boa in the FS2 mainhall that gives an abstract of all the features! It even shows the canopy... which looks a lot like the one seen on the retail model.
I have not seen this. o_o I shall pore over the screenies. I'll probably end up redoing the canopy to suit.
The file was made in Max 2010, I find the graphite tools to be a MASSIVE help. Go look at the official site and see what's there. It helps automate many of the tedious jobs.
I've recently managed to put together the original Boanerges into a Max scene, after re-learning how to get around POF files. I'll see if I can make the missile pods better match up to the texture. Then I'll put that up as an older Max file if I can.
EDIT: I had a butchers but could only find a very small shot of a Boa in the mainhall. It looked exactly like the retail model, with the nondescript black strip where a canopy should be.
EDIT2: Here's an OBJ export of it, with the newly relocated missile tubes.
http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/1400541/Boanerges.obj
http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/1400541/Boanerges.mtl
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Downloaded the model to take a look:
(a.) In general, it's beautiful... or at least as pretty as something as the Boa can get. Disregarding my previous statements about the canopy (which I will still back, by the way), there's one thing which is... sort of out of place. Where's the thruster assembly? There's just a void back there!
(b.) The grill intakes are cool. The detail is nice. However, that's a lot of polygons most people will never see. They'd be great for a cutscene model, but a normal map would work wonders there. However, I'm sure you're already were aware of that.
(c.) I advocate a revised canopy. I've said that before. But, if you must keep the current version, there's a ton of extraneous polies along the sides. It could use a bit of a clean-up. Unless, of course, there's a real reason for that... I'd actually be curious why.
(d.) If you do redo a bit of the forward fuselage (might play with that later myself), look at the Ursa a little. It might be cool to have the crew in tandem, with some sort of exit door to the rear. It would certainly make the bomber feel bigger... and more like a bomber.
I would like to think this was insightful. Thanks.
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I think we had the discussion about the cockpit several pages back. It was concluded that a side-by-side arrangement, Prowler (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EA-6B_Prowler)-style, fits the existing cockpit shape better.
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Hmmm... If side-by-side seating was ever appropriate for a bomber, it would have been the Ursa. Still, no use in keeping that up. I'll try and play with the model myself sometime.
I opened PCS2 to get a better relation between the two models. Haven't pulled the actual object out of the program for a side-by-side comparison with the new one yet, but I did find another potential problem. There's supposed to be the third weapons bank above the cockpit area. Right now, it's just another intake. Someone might consider revising that...
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And all of the intake's extrusions (there are four intakes) are extruded too far in, there are two extrusions beside the cockpit that are also extruded too far in, the cockpit glass uses too many unnecessary polies and generally doesn't fit (because it is so round compared to the Boa's part of the cockpit). The engines are crap, and I think the retail engines (detail on the textures) would work much better, the primaries look too blocky in comparison to the ship, and I must agree with Thaeris' statement that the side-by-side profile for the cockpit looks weird... and the retail cockpit suggests more of arrangement much like the Apollo from the FS1 intro, and the little greeble-ish detail you put seems out of place, to be honest.
The base model itself looks great, though.
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I recently noticed the Boa looks a lot like the upgraded GTDr Amazon...
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It would explain its death-trap aura.
"Hey Frank, how's it goin', man?
Well, Bob, just fine. We just got our first assignment!
Wow, sweet! Go team Alpha 4!
Well, according to our orders, we're supposed to attack this, eh, Ravennah... or, something like that, thing..."
Later that day...
Bob: "Help meee!!!"
Frank: "NOOOOOO!!!"
...That's a true story...
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please do not change the boanerges design. it has character and personality. and it looks damn unique. that's why people can't get used to is and think it looks ugly.
the concept designs are a step back from the innovative in-game product. it looks like a typical terran bomber with 4 boxes attached to a tube as opposed to the compact tight and practical looking design of the true boanerges.
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:yes:
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Yea, but it needs to be very subtle, unless you accept to destroy the original concept.
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I'd say the Boanerges is to retail models as the Kulas is to fan models: Those designs are "locked-in" by such a manner that you can't easily enhance them, despite the fact that they are in need of enhancement. And any enhancements you do will have to be within an acceptable margin of artistic licence in relation to keeping true to the spirit of the original model. The current Boa... just isn't there yet.
...Fortunately I'll be able to get around the Kulas problem as I'm dealing with the Blue Planet Kulas, not the MotA fighter. :D
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:yes:
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some things that don't make sense thought is the inclusion of donuts where the missile holes are. they're not necessary. and there's too many.
also, the airvent looks out of place. if this were designed for atmospheric flight, it would be more aerodynamic and less bulky. also not liking the random goblin effects.
the original design still looks much better imo:
(http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/images/Gtbboanerges-old.jpg)
if you think about it, the unconventional "ugly" features of the boanerges actually make it one of the most believable looking ship designs in freespace. when designing a ship for space combat, aerodynamics doesn't really matter, hence the lack of any features resembling wings or intakes. the aesthetic therefore becomes incredibly pleasing when one takes into account the reasoning behind such design decisions. the bulky design also makes sense. you want to compact the ship as much as possible to protect against collision and impact and steamline the internal processes.
the simplistic cockpit as well. someone referred to it as drone-like. i think in space the last thing pilots want is to have a airhole caused by some space junk in their glass canopy. the black stripe seems to me like a shell protecting the cockpit where the glass is tinited with presumably a coating of protective material. it's unfortunate some people don't like the design, i think it's the best one in free space 2.
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Just noticed something about the air vents as well: did anybody notice that where the air vents are now are exactly where one of the missile bays are? I'm quite sure that I recall dual cyclops side-by-side being fired from above the cockpit in Slaying Ravana.
Also, the random square greebles don't look so great. I'd rather see some piping/other ship-related substructures, or even smooth plating rather than the weird things we have now.
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The latest iteration of the Boa model has the missile tubes fixed to resemble the original, so that's not a real concern.
Again, here are my problems:
1. The forward cockpit section... inherently conflicts with retail FS2 as there's a Boa in the main hall, and it has the original pattern of canopy.
2. The upper missile banks have been "ventified." The vents themselves look fine, but that's a real problem for the model if there's not a reasonable fire point where a fire point is supposed to exist!
3. There's NO engine assembly. That's right, no engine thrusters were modeled for the Boa. That needs to change.
In general though, it's beautiful. It has many attractive characteristics that I think the eventual HTL Boa should have.
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:yes:
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The retail Boa actually has several inlets/vents on the mesh or at least on the texture. The only problems with the vents now is the depth of the openings and the foremost vent... which is where the uppermost missile port is supposed to be. :P
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vent=service/missile holes. :shaking:
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By the way, hundeswehr...
I'm afraid I don't have a welcome beam, but:
WELCOME TO THE HLP!!!
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Also, the random square greebles don't look so great.
Yep, those certainly look out of place. Another thing I don't like much is the excessive curvature of thruster casing.
Show off, a bit? But its a war machine designed to be deployed in grim places you'd rather never even hear about.. supposed to look at least mildly depressive :D
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:yes:
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:wtf:
Max, what does that have to do with the model?
The other thing I tried playing around with in the past was making the "spine" on the dorsal surface of the bomber more angular and thus more like the retail model. Believe it or not, keeping the angular spine, though it increases the volume of the bomber, actually makes it look sleeker. This is because it distributes the lateral profile of the ship more evenly, thus making the front end appear less bulbous.
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I guess he means it doesn't need to look tough cause it fails in being tough?
Well, even if its not completely successful there, adding chrome can only make it seem less so.
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That's not because the Serapis' armor is made of paper that we made it look like paper :p
Staying as close as possible to the original concept while adding detail and other nice stuff is more important IMHO than changing the look of a ships according to its stats. The only exception would be the Lilith, which has to look tougher than the Cain, but that's not the subject here.
And to be honest I think you added to much in curves and bulbous-looking here. All this look really nice, but it needs to be bulkier I think.
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By the way, hundeswehr...
I'm afraid I don't have a welcome beam, but:
WELCOME TO THE HLP!!!
hi, thanks.
also, i always thought the ship selection/info graphics were really great...and can be a good basis for any high polygon redos:
(http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/5553/boanerges1.jpg)
it seems some of the surfaces need normal maps. you can see dimples on some of the armor platings. some minor recesses at the engine. polygon additions will need to add to the existing details, not make it more curved. the flat, deflective armor tank-like design is what makes it special.
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That's actually a very good point, and that's not at all a bad screen shot from the ship selection screen. I'd like to think someone would use that to a greater effect...
I personally don't think I'll be able to do that right now; I've got lots of real commitments as well as several other HLP commitments. I'm curious, hundeswehr, do you have any experience with CAD?
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no, sorry.
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No worries. ;)
Actually, the best way to start leaning, should you care to learn, is to just go out and try some software, much of which is actually quite good and also very much free. Blender is probably the most useful, though I personally have never had the patience to tame the beast's UI. SketchUp is almost instantaneously started... and then seemingly just as quickly inhibited/limited by it's own UI. Wings3D is also a free, open-source program, though I've never used it.
For a balance of functionality and useability, try AC3D. It'll cost you, but it's pretty cheap in comparison to a great many other CAD programs.
Personally, I've been tempted to give Silo a try, though I haven't had time to play with the demo... which only lasts for 30 days.
If you're interested in any of these but can't find what I'm referring to, please feel free to ask. :yes:
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Hmmm that image reveals something to me: namely that that central black region is the cockpit glass that bulges out slightly. It's configuration suggests a single pilot in a standing position or something like the Ulysses (with the awesome motorcycle mount).
I really don't like the two people sitting next to each other. It looks retarded. The only reason I can see for having this is the whole "all bombers have two pilots!" thing...which isn't even canon. If the ship's layout doesn't suggest two pilots, don't force it...
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If you really need to put a second pilot in, I guess the cockpit shape would support a sitting arangement like it is done in many modern battle helicopters, where the secend seat is behind and above the firrst seat (like in the Hind, Cobra or the Apache to name just the most "famouse" ones).
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Those are my thoughts exactly, Norbert. In fact, the view point for the Boa is mounted towards the top the cockpit structure, implying that the WSO (if there is one) is near the bottom of the cockpit module while the pilot sits above him - Just like a helo!
I personally like the multi-crew spacecraft in FS. They just make the ships seem more "real," or what have you. Despite modern weapon systems as we're familiar with being so highly automated, thier complexity has encouraged the further employment of multi-crew fighters; the Rafale and Super Hornet are prime examples of this phenomenon.
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If it doesn't significantly warp the shape of the cockpit (like the two side-by-side pilots do), then I have no qualms about it. It looks interesting and unique, and morphing it looks...bad.
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I think the last effort of the Boa looked good, but as I've said before, just had too much creative licence taken out on it. Creative licence is good, but only to a point. And, if you eagerly give into that sort of thing, you're going to open Pandora's Box, FSU style. How many arguments have we had over the new Cain model, after all?
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Over every Cain model someone worked on. :doubt:
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Over every Cain model someone worked on. :doubt:
Verily. There's many aspects of that model I like, and I approve of it as a whole, but that's "dangerous territory" he's entered into with some of the design aspects, namely the missile launchers. However, that discussion belongs in the HTL Cain thread.
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I don't agree with taking too much artistic license with models either, to be honest. But on account of a lot of these models looking excellent, I try not to make too much of a big deal of it.
In this case though, swapping around missile firing points is more than artistic license and wanders into gameplay-altering territory. IMHO that is a valid concern. If/when AthlonBoy returns, this needs to be addressed.
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I don't agree with taking too much artistic license with models either, to be honest. But on account of a lot of these models looking excellent, I try not to make too much of a big deal of it.
Same. As for artistic liberty on the Boanerges, I'd much prefer a single-pilot and agree with Droid803. Did AthlonBoy release the model?
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I've got the model as there's (or was) a download for it on a previous page of the thread.
I however do like the idea of having at least two crewmembers. This "ugly motha'" is quite massive, after all, and only one crewman/woman might be rather odd...
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Well, I interpreted the Boanerges's Tech Description to be a single-seater. Of course, it probably isn't a canon interpretation, but that's what the animation is for. Also, the lack of a turret also means that if there was a co-pilot, he wouldn't be aiming, assuming that's one of their duties. Anyway:
The challenge of maintaining an aging fleet has motivated the GTVA to develop a new generation of ships able to withstand long-term abuse in the field.
Not only does it mean that the GTA bombers are being dated, but it also means that producing more of the same is costly. Boanerges, being a single-seater, is more cost-efficient.
One test pilot observed that the Boanerges handles better than any other bomber and has enough firepower to make it a formidable anti-capship weapon.
One as in one. Not one of two. Though it doesn't necessarily say that there wasn't a co-pilot, there was no information saying that there was. Also, the firepower explains the massiveness of the bomber.
While you have the model, are you gonna work on it?
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If anything, more modern fighters seem to be shifting to two-seaters. Fighters. Operating a modern weapons system (and everything else), despite its automation, is still quite a job. Thus, the WSO/co-pilot is a very valuable asset, especially in a big ship with (if real) would have a very large numbers of systems to monitor/operate. A second set of eyes is also a tremendous value...
Thus, I'd try to sit two crew in it. :D
And I did want to play with it... but I have quite a few other projects to work on. I'm a concept artist for a project, I'm going to try and do a few things for BP, and I've been trying to get aircraft/ship models to ShadowGorrath.
Not to mention school. The semester is winding down, so the work is certainly going to build up.
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I don't care if it's single or double seater...
but I do care if you change the cockpit to accommodate a copilot.
If you can fit two into the basic design without looking strange, then great. If you can't then just stick with one. Srsly. The cockpit of the current HTL one is what I hate the most about it. It's disturbing me more and more the more I look at it more.
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Also, there seems to be a good meter of head-space for the pilots in the HTL model, much like how the GTF Valkyrie has a ginormous canopy that you could swim in.
IE, it's ugly in that respect as well. Stacking the pilots would reduce apparent headroom, and make it look nicer.
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Hmmm...
I was daydreaming a few days back about the Boa in combat - the primary gun bank was acting as a turret... I always thought the lower guns looked a bit like they should be placed on a semi-traversable turret.
Once we get a decent Boa, would it be concievable to place a degree of auto-aim on the lower turret once you have a target selected? I believe this has been done for the Shivan Nephilim bomber, though that might have only been for a certain special case...
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It's certainly possible, although it would probably not find it's way into the mediavps tables like that.
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Mediavps are intended to stay as close as possible to retail gameplay. But nothing prevent you or anyone to make personal changes after that :p
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http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/1400541/Boanerges%2097.max
Dear Community,
Would someone w/ 3DS Max kindly convert this file to 3DS or OBJ. The Inferno Team would like to UVmap and hopefully texture it.
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I tried.. the file calls for a dll I don't have and can't open it.
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What's the DLL called?
Keep trying guys; whoever gives the Community a workable file will get to BETA-test the next Inferno release (no joke)!
Inferno Team
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"Standard Bitmap Storages and Filters"
I assume that this file was made with an older version of Max and that that dll is now defunct in Max 2009.
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Honestly? The model's not going to be easy to work with and it might just be better to remake it completely, as it has 104k polygons (around the same as the new Hades)
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Oh god. 104k? O_O
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It still beats the vanilla model. I'm not sure how easy it is to optimize 104k to something not astronomical, but the model should be salvaged if possible.
Oh, and things need to be fixed, like the air vents. The ones above the cockpit are where secondary hard points are supposed to be.
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We have an algorithm (imperfect but good enough) that we can run to reduce polygons symmetrically and systematically in OBJ files. If the Community can convert this mesh to a 3DS or OBJ, we can reduce polygon numbers and rework the model.
-INFTeam
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Now wait one cotton picking minute, 104 thousand polys? Nonsense, it has 6000 on my e-
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Oh, bugger. I see what I did.
I made a duplicate of the mesh and meshsmoothed it, with the intent on generating a normal map from it. I then hid this mesh within 3DS Max and forgot about it. It must have found its way inside the files I exported ages ago.
Rest assured, the poly count is under 10k. 9,054 tris and 5,182 polys, in fact.
Here you go. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1400541/Boanerges.3DS
I changed the missile tubes to match the retail texture, removed the top vent to make room for a weapon hardpoint, and changed the cockpit entirely to better match the retail texture. I'm not happy with the cockpit, but I'd rather you have this than some crazy 104k poly... thing.
I may be incapable of texturing, bad at greebling and terrible at finishing up projects, but one thing I am not is an inefficient modeller. I got a regimen, yo. I keep them polys in check.
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Au contraire. It takes a certain special something to buff something so small/simple into 104k polies :P
It's very good that you are able to provide the originals though. Seems like FSU will be tearing through new assets this month :D
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Good to know this is getting worked on again. I just love the models smooth look... retail be damned. :p
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There are several geometry errors that will have to be resolved first. We will put this project on hold until the Shivan ships have been completed.
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Sorry for rezing this thread but....
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/Shodan_AI/Model%20Display/TCMB-Warhammer-showoff.jpg)
Don't listen to those. Somebody is modeling a 16k poly fighter. :rolleyes: You just need to have efficient LODs.
LULZ... this one's 21k polys :p
Man, time really flying by. i've got so many model i haven't touched since 08/09 :blah:
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(http://i.imgur.com/NnrdrPg.jpg)
Sab0o finished this off. It will be included in the next MediaVPs. http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=74809.0
That one is a neat re-interpretation of some Boanerges concept art, but any FS2 replacement is shackled by the shape of the original fighters for game balance purposes.
For the record, I'm fine with this thread being locked.