What timescale and period are we talking about?Clarify. I'll say current day and the future.
No more wars fought over which zombie is cooler.
To be clear, I'm not talking spirituality or belief, but rather the organized religion aspect.
I believe that we could be much farther along were it not for weird and nonsensical prejudices, and all of these wars fought in the name of zombie jews and space volcanoes. Religion is not based on any fact, rather faith, belief, and to an extent prejudice and fear-mongering. If God is real and omnipotent, surely he is intelligent on an incomprehensible level, and we're supposed to have free will, so why not do what we wish with our free will? Why is having sex bad if we choose to do it for pleasure? God allows us to, does he not? What horrible consequence does it have on our morals, ideals, or life? None. What's wrong with abortion, if we have free will do we not also have the right to choose an abortion? It's prejudices like these that hold us back.
Sure, religion has some good points (the combined efforts of some churches support worthy causes such as African-Aid etc) but these ideas can easily be found in many other places.
I say Yes, and I firmly believe that religion has no place in this world.
Kudos to Scotty for the idea.
So because He gave us free choice, you must defy His glory?
he gave us nothing we took it !
seriously giuys all this god stuff sucks so big
How is it defying his glory. I'm speaking of a divine being, not any of the human-wrought texts, or human ideals. Most of todays religion is blatant human opinion, if there is a God why would he lay down such arbitrary rules?
Quotehe gave us nothing we took it !
From? The vast, unending vaccuum of space?Quoteseriously giuys all this god stuff sucks so big
Jerkish opinion alert!
your beliefs are based on fear and oppression and have very little to do with anything else.....
i have no written work , no dogma , and no "im better than you" attitude
So because He gave us free choice, you must defy His glory?
By our standards. We apply our own pitifully inadequate morality to His glory.
You are a good man.Quotehe gave us nothing we took it !
From? The vast, unending vaccuum of space?Quoteseriously giuys all this god stuff sucks so big
Jerkish opinion alert!
because i do not believe what you believe then i am a jerk ..... nice
maybe you can stone me or banish me ......
your belief is your belief , there is no fact just opinion , i have no written work , no dogma , and no "im better than you" attitude
i am responsable for my actions and i will deal with that and not wait to be judged by my maker but judged by my peers
and yes we did come from the vast vacuum of space .... incredible
your beliefs are based on fear and oppression and have very little to do with anything else.....
Who is he (the priest/rabbi/etc.) to judge me
and if I can't use my free will because a fat man in robes tells me that I'm sinning, then that's not free will, or god.
"Do not judge, or you too will be judged.".
QuoteSo because He gave us free choice, you must defy His glory?
he gave us nothing we took it !
seriously giuys all this god stuff sucks so big
no proof no proof no proof
Faith is proof enough.Are you a comedian?
BTW, he did give it, freely and without reservation. He went voluntarily and allowed himself to be hung on a cross until dead. He could have called legions of angels to come down and rescue him, smiting all around, but he didn't. He allowed himself as the final sacrifice for any and all who would ask for it. You do know that being crucified is one of the most painful, lingering ways to die right? And it's not just for show.Wait... Jesus died for my sins, so don't I have a "Get-Out-Of-Hell-Free" card?
QuoteSo because He gave us free choice, you must defy His glory?
he gave us nothing we took it !
seriously giuys all this god stuff sucks so big
no proof no proof no proof
Faith is proof enough.
BTW, he did give it, freely and without reservation. He went voluntarily and allowed himself to be hung on a cross until dead. He could have called legions of angels to come down and rescue him, smiting all around, but he didn't. He allowed himself as the final sacrifice for any and all who would ask for it. You do know that being crucified is one of the most painful, lingering ways to die right? And it's not just for show.
He went voluntarily and allowed himself to be hung on a cross until dead. He could have called legions of angels to come down and rescue him, smiting all around, but he didn't. He allowed himself as the final sacrifice for any and all who would ask for it. You do know that being crucified is one of the most painful, lingering ways to die right? And it's not just for show.
Actually it depends which flavor of Christianity you believe in. Lutherans believe it is absolutely a get-out-of-hell-free card.That sort of explains Lobo...
Meh, interpretation more than a real difference. I think of myself as the next-best thing to non-denominational.
Yeah, that makes sense, Luther did preach "justification by grace through faith," although that still means faith is required.
Baptism doesn't seem to be that bad, either
The current iteration is that God is infinitely forgiving, and you are saved by his grace. The faith and **** is basically in thanks.
Baptism doesn't seem to be that bad, either.
Most baptists that I know don't seem to be the same magnitude of dicks as other religious people I know. Although that could very well be the church itself, and not a reflection on the whole crowd of them.Baptism doesn't seem to be that bad, either.
If you mean Baptist, you are clearly not doing your homework.
Holding us back from what?
Drinking and dancing are generally prohibited by Baptists.
However the church is lax in who it will certify as a minister and has no means of internal government, meaning that all kinds of fringe groups (Like the famous Westboro Baptist Church) tend to fall under their purview.
Drinking and dancing are generally prohibited by Baptists.You're kidding right? That's the opposite of the baptist(s) I know, and that's all that their church youth group is.
However the church is lax in who it will certify as a minister and has no means of internal government, meaning that all kinds of fringe groups (Like the famous Westboro Baptist Church) tend to fall under their purview.
That doesn't seem like a very good point, the atheist part of those regimes isn't really front-and-center, it's just a part.
I don't think you'll ever wipe out Faith, it'd be like destroying Hope, but yes, I'd agree that the influence of religious institutions are waning, despite what the News (and the institutions themselves) would have us believe.That's really the biggest reason why I strive to keep my own nose clean, so to speak, and as far as others are concerned, I say live and let live.
Oddly enough, I think the concept of God as some sort of Omni-present 'judge' is the one that is fading fast, because religion is, in many ways, a self-consuming animal, the 'worse' the world gets, the greater Gods wrath will be, and yet, the worse the world gets, the less people have Faith that anyone is even bothering to look.
I don't think you'll ever wipe out Faith, it'd be like destroying Hope, but yes, I'd agree that the influence of religious institutions are waning, despite what the News (and the institutions themselves) would have us believe.That's really the biggest reason why I strive to keep my own nose clean, so to speak, and as far as others are concerned, I say live and let live.
Oddly enough, I think the concept of God as some sort of Omni-present 'judge' is the one that is fading fast, because religion is, in many ways, a self-consuming animal, the 'worse' the world gets, the greater Gods wrath will be, and yet, the worse the world gets, the less people have Faith that anyone is even bothering to look.
Of the top of my head, cult seems to have been used a lot by religious leaders to discourage people from changing their beliefs. No one wants to be labeled as occult, so they stick to the old ways.There's a distinct difference between something being "occult" or something being a "cult". "Occult" concerns magic, a "cult" is a negatively-loaded word that more accurately describes an emerging religion typically led by a charismatic demagogue who is usually regarded as some sort of Messiah.
Well, 'Occult' was bundled up with things like 'Pagan' to be considered in the same league as 'Satanic', that was a little bit of public relations done by the Church in the 1500's or so ;)I never said that what the Church did was right- just clarifying some vocabulary. :P
Edit: It's kind of nice to think of Ghandi having a chat with Mother Theresa somewhere, despite the fact that, according to their religions, that would be impossible, one of them should be receiving punishment for being on the wrong team.I say that anybody who does good- legitimate Good (everybody should know what that is)- is on the "right team", regardless of their religious beliefs.
That's what I've always liked to think, if there is someone 'up there' who judges us, it's a judgement of the person themselves, that it doesn't matter what form their belief takes.You're exactly right- on all 3 points, really. God's judgment is something that we can never really understand, but the most inscrutable part of His judgment is His capacity to forgive. From what I understand, winding up in Hell actually requires some rather serious effort on the part of the person in question- that is to say, they have to consistently and strongly reject God in their lives. And I'm not necessarily talking about Atheists- the presence of God is something else. (Don't ask me what it is, because I really can't explain it, and don't really know on a rational level). Being human means that our lives are suffused with evil and sin- it's an unfortunate and immutable fact (for believers, anyway). But that doesn't matter to God, for He alone knows whether we are good or bad people, and is willing to forgive anything. (I've heard whispers that some writings suggest that even Hell itself is not eternal). A given person cannot truly even judge themselves...
Thing is, all of us do 'evil' everyday, we are all an unwilling or unknowing party to it in some way or another. My taxes pay for the bombs that are dropped on Houses in the Middle East, but then, I wouldn't be surprised if a fair percentage of religious donations in the Middle East find their way into the hands of those who would detonate bombs in the middle of a shopping Mall in Iraq, everyone touches 'evil' in one way or another, and I do not believe in the concept of evil done in a good cause. However, that is not going to go away, one man can change the world, several million however? No chance.
So it really boils down to trying to be the best you can for yourself.
You're kidding right? That's the opposite of the baptist(s) I know, and that's all that their church youth group is.
prove religion is not holding us back.
If I'm confusing it it's my friend's fault, he told me.You're kidding right? That's the opposite of the baptist(s) I know, and that's all that their church youth group is.
I told you; the church has very lax internal government and no mechanism for kicking a rogue pastor out, so this is totally possible. Baptist, as a label, is not very useful because the church has no doctrinal control of someone after they take their exam for certification as a Baptist preacher.
Alternately, you may be confusing Epsicopal with Baptist, which is reasonable. The outward trappings are the same and you would not be the first.
prove religion is not holding us back.
prove religion is not holding us back.
Prove that it is.
That was then; this is now.prove religion is not holding us back.
Prove that it is.
There was something called the "Dark Ages", burning people at the stake for stating findings that opposed church doctrine, the recent rise of superstitious nonsense in western countries which leads people to question the benefits of science and technologyand remain skeptical of science in general.
prove religion is not holding us back.
Prove that it is.
IAbout six months ago, when the world economy began its plunge, I read a newspaper report that more people are turning to religion as a result of the economic depression. I wouldn't call these people loyal, nor would I call them competent, but at least they use religion as a form of moral support.
That was then; this is now.
My most significant argument against religion's efficacy at holding us back is its (apparently- I may be wrong) diminishing influence in global affairs
prove religion is not holding us back.
Prove that it is.
prove there is a god.
checkmate!
fair weather faith people are just ****ing weak in character, if there is a god then there is a god even when your life is doing well. stick to your ****ing guns, pick a side.
I think therefore I am.
therefore, some sort of reality exists.
I think therefore I am.
therefore, some sort of reality exists.
How do you know, and why would that apply to anyone else? If anyone stops thinking for even the briefest moment, does that mean they are not?
How can you prove, without a doubt, reality exists?
As evidence of the above premise, I offer one version of a typical television news story heard each year on the final Friday of Lent:
"Today is Good Friday, observed by Christians worldwide as a day that commemorates the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, whose death redeemed the sins of mankind."
Here is the way it should be written:
"Today is Good Friday, observed worldwide by Jesus buffs as the day on which the popular, bearded cultural figure, sometimes referred to as The Messiah, was allegedly crucified and according to legend died for mankind's so-called sins. Today kicks off a 'holy' weekend that culminates on Easter Sunday, when, it is widely believed, this dead 'savior' who also, by the way, claimed to be the son of a sky-dwelling, invisible being known as God mysteriously 'rose from the dead.'
"According to the legend, by volunteering to be killed and actually going through with it, Jesus saved every person who has ever lived and every person who ever will live from an eternity of suffering in a fiery region popularly known as hell, providing so the story goes that the person to be 'saved' firmly believes this rather fanciful tale."
How can you prove, without a doubt, reality exists?
prove there is a god.
checkmate!
Oh, I got proof. Just not your kind of proof...or at least not something I can reproduce. Should that bother me at all?
So Trashman has proof, but none of us can see it.
There's a pill for that.
There's a pill for that.
Unfortunately for you, you are beyond medical help.
The fallacy with that is why would God help her out if she doesn't care/worship/believe in Him? You can't just claim "my life sucks, so if God won't help me, he's a prick."
I'm actually pretty curious about what Trashman's probably emotionally loaded, otherwise-explainable proof of god is
I'm afraid the tale of the expulsion from Eden pretty much set me against that particular version of God. The first thing man gets punished for is gaining knowledge, as though being aware of the world around you is some kind of crime, as though you deserve punishment for daring to question what is or what may be, for daring to ask 'Who am I?'
To me, that goes against the whole point of intelligent life, which is to try and understand ourselves and the Universe we are born into, the more we understand, the less we fear, the less we fear, the less we try to destroy.
I'm actually pretty curious about what Trashman's probably emotionally loaded, otherwise-explainable proof of god is
proofs. Plural.
Many examples. But I can give you one if you want.
How about a massive, fatal tumor that completley dissapeares within 24 hours after prayer in a sacred place?
I'm one of the first people to acknowledge the powers of the human mind and body (and indeed, I read a lot about that) - from the placebo effect to hypnosis, it is the mind that actually control all processes in the body, even if subconciously. If a man could conciously control all body processes he could do amazing things. But still, those things would be limited by that is physicly and biologicly possible.
A giant tumor can't completey dissapear in 24 hours, even if the hole body was doing it's darndest to destroy it, just like a large wound cant heal itself within minutes, but it rather takes weeks.,,and that's with stiches and bandages.
I'm afraid the tale of the expulsion from Eden pretty much set me against that particular version of God. The first thing man gets punished for is gaining knowledge, as though being aware of the world around you is some kind of crime, as though you deserve punishment for daring to question what is or what may be, for daring to ask 'Who am I?'
To me, that goes against the whole point of intelligent life, which is to try and understand ourselves and the Universe we are born into, the more we understand, the less we fear, the less we fear, the less we try to destroy.
Except kara, God knew that Eve would take the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge, even before she took it, before the serpent even offered it. It was in His plan for Humanity for them to be turned out from the Garden when they were ready. Think of the Garden as a nursery, you keep your children there, in total safety until they are ready to deal with the world around them. Adam and Eve were perfect innocents, relying on God's graces to keep them safe, fed and happy. After Eve took the fruit, those graces were removed, and Mankind became what we are now. We rise or fall on our own. The only part God sees after is the Soul, and he sacrificed much to ensure that the Soul would not be cast into the Lake of Fire.
possibly even designed
leaving all of the others unanswered.
Quoteleaving all of the others unanswered.
Have you ever seen Bruce Almighty?
The fallacy with that is why would God help her out if she doesn't care/worship/believe in Him? You can't just claim "my life sucks, so if God won't help me, he's a prick."
That's called flaming, and it's against the rules here.There's a pill for that.
Unfortunately for you, you are beyond medical help.
Except kara [...] The only part God sees after is the Soul, and he sacrificed much to ensure that the Soul would not be cast into the Lake of Fire.A. That's not kara, and B:
If god is all-powerful, then why would he put up with satan's **** when satan could be gone with a single thought?
At least in Islam it makes sense where satan is an agent of god, ordered specifically to try and tempt people away and lead them to hell. Either way, christian or muslim, god is a dick for creating such a situation, and is also a dick for answering one tumor-removal prayer and leaving all of the others unanswered.
Then why doesn't prayer work every time?
There's a pill for that.
Unfortunately for you, you are beyond medical help.
If I pricked you, but I also gave you a bajillion dollars, a house, a car and pretty much everything else you wanted in your life...would you call me evil and a bastard cause I pricked you?
Think of it this way - all of the misery and troubles of life could be like a mere prick compared to what awaits us.
If I pricked you, but I also gave you a bajillion dollars, a house, a car and pretty much everything else you wanted in your life...would you call me evil and a bastard cause I pricked you?
Think of it this way - all of the misery and troubles of life could be like a mere prick compared to what awaits us.
Ah, thank you. You've demonstrated it perfectly.
God is immoral. Evil, in fact. Because eternal punishment of any nature, any form, is both immoral and evil. There is no return from the lake of fire. You burn, or do whatever it is you do, for eternity.
This is about as wrong as wrong gets. No matter what you've done, no crime merits eternal punishment. Death is an end and a denial of your remaining life; you are stuck that way eternally, but you were never going to be eternal anyways, so it's not an eternal punishment. The Roman concept of damnatio memoriae, to remove someone from history, to erase the record of their existence, is about as close to eternal punishment as we are capable of enacting, and it is woefully inadequate at its job (we can name quite a few people who underwent damnatio memoriae). No punishment, even the most severe we can devise, is anywhere near comparable.
And we have grave misgivings about our own most severe punishments. God's transition directly to out of bounds.
You've been warned about personal attacks before. I won't be warning you again.
God is immoral. Evil, in fact. Because eternal punishment of any nature, any form, is both immoral and evil. There is no return from the lake of fire. You burn, or do whatever it is you do, for eternity.
This is about as wrong as wrong gets. No matter what you've done, no crime merits eternal punishment. Death is an end and a denial of your remaining life; you are stuck that way eternally, but you were never going to be eternal anyways, so it's not an eternal punishment. The Roman concept of damnatio memoriae, to remove someone from history, to erase the record of their existence, is about as close to eternal punishment as we are capable of enacting, and it is woefully inadequate at its job (we can name quite a few people who underwent damnatio memoriae). No punishment, even the most severe we can devise, is anywhere near comparable.
And we have grave misgivings about our own most severe punishments. God's transition directly to out of bounds.
There is only one minor flaw in that line of thinking.
There is no gray area with God.
You are either sinful or not.
He has stated over and over that the punishment for sin is death(eternity in hell).
It's not actually clear if it really is eternal...and you have no idea what that punishment actually is, or how Hell really is.
Burning in a lake of fire is a nice metaphor, but that's not really it.
I've heard it described as simply "being truly separated from God".
No, I mean - I had enough proof to convince me, BUT I doubt it would convince you OR you would even regard it as proof.
Why did my house burn down? So that you could move into this new house that's twice the size of the old one.Everyone has that kind of money. Everyone. The average Canadian is 40000 dollars in debt, not counting mortgages.
God has a plan for everything, every event has a purpose.
So Trashman has proof, but none of us can see it.
No, I mean - I had enough proof to convince me, BUT I doubt it would convince you OR you would even regard it as proof.
Let me give you an example.
I tell you your mother is a filthy whore. Now, you know your mother better than me, you know her routine, and you know she doesn't really have time or inclination for whoring. Yet trying to prove it to me would be either exceptionally difficult or downright impossible, and not to mention a total waste of time.
Hey, there's a good plotline for a science fiction story! Logical humans run off to another planet, build up an intergalactic empire and start a never ending war with the religious people! Not that it'd be politically controversial, or anything. </sarcasm>
...but man, that'd make for an AWESOME game.
Hey, there's a good plotline for a science fiction story! Logical humans run off to another planet, build up an intergalactic empire and start a never ending war with the religious people! Not that it'd be politically controversial, or anything. </sarcasm>
...but man, that'd make for an AWESOME game.
Hey, there's a good plotline for a science fiction story! Logical humans run off to another planet, build up an intergalactic empire and start a never ending war with the religious people! Not that it'd be politically controversial, or anything. </sarcasm>You could extend that story with a third group, the one that tries to stay as far as possible from those two :P
...but man, that'd make for an AWESOME game.
Hoooooooly ****, I'm not sure I can even bring myself to say anything in this conversation. Having just finished watching the most awesome documentary ever made, Religulous, I will simply paraphrase the entire thing:Wouldn't be much of a war, a bunch of intelligent scientists against some religious science-fearing nutjobs.
Either we move past religion, or we'll blow ourselves up.
Maybe we won't blow ourselves up, but I guarantee that if there is a future for the human race, its history books will describe religion as "a way of teaching children to ignore logic." We are fast approaching a critical precipice between the religious fundamentalists and everyone else who doesn't really give a **** one way or another. As we grow more and more divided, we become unable to coexist with each other, and so one side is going to have to win over the other. Hopefully, following the current trend, logic will prevail and religion will slowly die out as we teach children in grade school that correlation does not imply causality. Otherwise, religion will win, and anti-religious science will likely shrink away into its own caste, going into a period of hyperinnovation until they figure out a way to escape to another planet and move there.
Hey, there's a good plotline for a science fiction story! Logical humans run off to another planet, build up an intergalactic empire and start a never ending war with the religious people! Not that it'd be politically controversial, or anything. </sarcasm>
...but man, that'd make for an AWESOME game.
Wouldn't be much of a war, a bunch of intelligent scientists against some religious science-fearing nutjobs.
Wouldn't be much of a war, a bunch of intelligent scientists against some religious science-fearing nutjobs.
That example sucks because the analogy between someone knowing their mother and you knowing your God is... invalid (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CriticalResearchFailure).
Can't think of a better word for it. :sigh:
You do know what the concept of "falsifiable" means, don't you? :nervous:
Because we are arguing basic morality. This is beyond the word of law, even His.
Fine. Then ignore the fact that Lake of Fire is in fact the literal wording used. Regardless, my point stands. No crime can ever merit punishment for eternity, and on that, the biblical accounts are very specific. You have invented some strange, extrabiblical notion of non-eternal punishment, much like Purgatory was always an extrabiblical notion, something that can be read back into the texts, but not read out of them.
Again, don't take things in the Bible too literal.
Are you implying that everyone against religion is a intelligent scientists, and that every religious person is a science-fearing nutjob?
Cause last time I checked, there were plenty of stupid nutjobs that hate religion and plenty of intelligent scientists that are religious...
That example sucks because the analogy between someone knowing their mother and you knowing your God is... invalid (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CriticalResearchFailure).
Can't think of a better word for it. :sigh:
You do know what the concept of "falsifiable" means, don't you? :nervous:
Not the best example, I know. But it gets the point across.
Why should I be worried about what someone else thinks about X if I know X to be true?
Because we are arguing basic morality. This is beyond the word of law, even His.
Technicely, it is not. if He is God, then what He sez, simply is.
Hey, there's a good plotline for a science fiction story! Logical humans run off to another planet, build up an intergalactic empire and start a never ending war with the religious people! Not that it'd be politically controversial, or anything. </sarcasm>
...but man, that'd make for an AWESOME game.
If you look, a surprising number of scientists have a belief in God, they just hide it because they're "superiors" would fix it so that they'd never be taken seriously.
May I introduce you to my friend Harvey? He's a six foot, 3½ inch tall rabbit that lives in my house. I've never actually seen him but I know he's there. He's a pretty nice guy, I never really talked to him but I just know him, you know? And he has psychic powers. Sometimes when I ask him to help me in things, he does! Once, I asked him to help me get yahzee in one throw, and it happened. The probability of that happening is only 1/1296; it's irrefutable that Harvey clearly helped me. Some have expressed their doubt about Harvey, but I don't see why I should worry about them since I simply know Harvey to be true.
When I die, I know Harvey will take care of me and we'll have fun eternity together.
There's a psychological term called "delusion" and if supernatural religions weren't so widespread, they would easily classify as such.
It doesn't work that way.
Technicely, it is not. if He is God, then what He sez, simply is.
Yes, the Lake of Fire is a literal wording that was used. So what? Or do you take Genesis literally too?
Again, don't take things in the Bible too literal.
And I'm not inventing anything.
May I introduce you to my friend Harvey? He's a six foot, 3½ inch tall rabbit that lives in my house. I've never actually seen him but I know he's there. He's a pretty nice guy, I never really talked to him but I just know him, you know? And he has psychic powers. Sometimes when I ask him to help me in things, he does! Once, I asked him to help me get yahzee in one throw, and it happened. The probability of that happening is only 1/1296; it's irrefutable that Harvey clearly helped me. Some have expressed their doubt about Harvey, but I don't see why I should worry about them since I simply know Harvey to be true.
When I die, I know Harvey will take care of me and we'll have fun eternity together.
Quite a different thing, and it's easy to see why.
God, as the creator of the universe, the alpha and the omega, is self-cointained and self-explanatory. He is the source of everything and thus nothing he does is impossible.
A magical rabbit isn't. Where does he get those magic powers? What is the source of magic? What is rabbit doing there anyway?
QuoteThere's a psychological term called "delusion" and if supernatural religions weren't so widespread, they would easily classify as such.
I consider that an insult.
But we are capable of understanding the concept of duplicity. (And if we are, then God perforce must be.) If God is not prepared to explain Himself, to us, He's an idiot and a fool, and
hence, not God.
You are. Eternal punishment is eternal punishment. This is very specific. Nobody with even a cursory knowledge of the many, many references in the Bible can say you don't get it.
It's a heresy.
I've heard it described as simply "being truly separated from God".So if you heard it described in different ways, how do you know which way is real? How do you know which religion is the real way? How do you know religion is the real way?
Yeah, but they'd run out of Xenu-Air 747s and not know how to build more, being science fearing and all.Wouldn't be much of a war, a bunch of intelligent scientists against some religious science-fearing nutjobs.
remember, "religious science-fearing nutjobs" did 9/11
I've heard it described as simply "being truly separated from God".So if you heard it described in different ways, how do you know which way is real? How do you know which religion is the real way? How do you know religion is the real way?
God is not magic.you can't prove god isn't magic!
God doesn't have to explain himself to us. And given that he can shape reality itself was he sees fit, whatever he sez is, is.
Why would he change his mind? Isn't he omnipotent/present/scient? Couldn't he factor every logical (teehee) course of action and shape the universe the way he wanted down to a "T". He wouldn't have to go back.
Like I said, I can't prove God exists. But, if he doesn't, why does any other this(points around the room and beyond) matter in the slightest?
Like I said, I can't prove God exists. But, if he doesn't, why does any other this(points around the room and beyond) matter in the slightest?
here's the fun part. it doesn't matter at all. Technically, we're all the scum on a lukewarm rock hurtling around an average star. Thinking about it that way is pretty depressing, so it all comes down to our own lives and what -we- think is important.
The only meaning to our lives is the meaning that we make for them.
How is eternal punishment moral?Short answer: God says so.
It's like you guys worshiping a bunch of fairy tales. If the old crackpots in Rome who wrote the new testament decided to put James and the Giant Peach in there, you wouldn't question it and would defend it till your last breath and look like a complete moron while doing so just because its in your religion which you blindly follow like a goddamn idiot until you die and find out "Oh sh!t, wrong religion :C" and go to hell. Oh wait hell doesn't exist, its just a metaphor. But God and the divine trinity ISNT just a metaphor. Because we said so.This argument rests entirely on one premise, though, and if that premise is destroyed then the whole thing falls apart.
RIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGHT
It's like you guys worshiping a bunch of fairy tales. If the old crackpots in Rome who wrote the new testament decided to put James and the Giant Peach in there, you wouldn't question it and would defend it till your last breath and look like a complete moron while doing so just because its in your religion which you blindly follow like a goddamn idiot until you die and find out "Oh sh!t, wrong religion :C" and go to hell. Oh wait hell doesn't exist, its just a metaphor. But God and the divine trinity ISNT just a metaphor. Because we said so.This argument rests entirely on one premise, though, and if that premise is destroyed then the whole thing falls apart.
RIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGHT
The premise is: Christian faith is blind faith. It isn't.
Christian faith rests upon solid evidence. First, we have historical documentary evidence from eyewitnesses who were there during the life of Jesus. Second, we have testimonial evidence from Christians throughout history that God answers prayers and performs miracles. Third, those of us who have experienced God in our lives have first-person confirmational evidence.
With every life changed, prayer answered, and miracle witnessed, God's presence and action become more and more irrefutable.
First, we have historical documentary evidence from eyewitnesses who were there during the life of Jesus.No one who wrote the bible ever met Jesus in person.
Second, we have testimonial evidence from Christians throughout history that God answers prayers and performs miracles.Correlation does not imply causality.
Third, those of us who have experienced God in our lives have first-person confirmational evidence.So a guy has a mental breakdown, thinks he's seen an angel and you consider that evidence? Wow man. Wow.
Effectively disproving His existence by castrating His messengers and followers.
Humans are silly creatures. When something happens that we don't understand, we assign it religious significance and say GOD DID IT! When something good happens or we pray to get an A on the test, study for it, then get an A, we say GOD DID IT! How do you know he did it? I mean for all you know, God is wondering what the hell is wrong with you guys and wishing he hadn't created the universe. You guys like iterating over and over that God is God and we can't possibly understand him, so by that logic you must therefore accept the possibility that you have NO F*CKING IDEA what your doing and your praying to some divine entity who doesn't give a ****. Or maybe he's malevolent and evil and likes watching us kill each other so he manipulates us into arguing with each other because he thought the Holocaust was funny. You can't disprove any of those. We can go on and on about this forever, its meaningless. Everything about religion is meaningless because none of it is falsifiable. Humans are flawed in that we fail to realize that coincidences happen, and in many cases are made exceedingly more likely when you start looking for them. Just because something happens that we can't understand doesn't mean God must have done it. Whenever there isn't a rational explanation for things, its because you don't have enough information.That's a nice generalization you have there. Be a shame if anything happened to it.
No one who wrote the bible ever met Jesus in person.Mmmm, the apostles Paul, Peter, and John? (Possibly) Mark? James, the brother of Jesus?
Correlation does not imply causality.True, in general. But 2000 years of documented, consistent, reliable correlation points pretty strongly in that direction.
So a guy has a mental breakdown, thinks he's seen an angel and you consider that evidence? Wow man. Wow.You're inventing a situation for the express purpose of shooting it down. No, let's try being healed of injury and disease, or being delivered from drug and alcohol abuse.
The only thing I'll be punished for is, assuming christianity happens to be right, and Judiasm is wrong, and islam is wrong, and well you know just about every single other religion is wrong, then I go to hell in my afterlife.K. Be advised you might change your mind once you're there.
I don't care.
You're just being selfish.Huh?
or being delivered from drug and alcohol abuse.
K. Be advised you might change your mind once you're there.
Harvey doesn't have to explain himself to us. And given that he can shape reality itself was he sees fit, whatever he sez is, is.
1) Harvey is not magic. He's not some white haired old guy somewhere that does parlor tricks. And even if we were talking about RPG type magic where you are very very powerful. That's still not Harvey. Remember that as the Creator, he is the source of all power, knowledge and wisdom. Infinite, Omnipotent, and Omnicient. A being on that scale would act in ways both subtle and great that poor simple humans can't really grasp or comprehend.
But, being God, He should know that we will want such an explanation anyways, and have it prepared.
Harvey doesn't have to explain himself to us. And given that he can shape reality itself was he sees fit, whatever he sez is, is.
If Harvey is a diety (a.k.a God), then sure.Quote1) Harvey is not magic. He's not some white haired old guy somewhere that does parlor tricks. And even if we were talking about RPG type magic where you are very very powerful. That's still not Harvey. Remember that as the Creator, he is the source of all power, knowledge and wisdom. Infinite, Omnipotent, and Omnicient. A being on that scale would act in ways both subtle and great that poor simple humans can't really grasp or comprehend.
What you just did is described God, but with a different name. God, Jehovah, Alah...call him whatever you want really. Even Harvey works. But the point is, you're not describing a magical creature anymore...you're describing something far, FAR grander.
I also no noticed no one even tried to tackle the vanishing tumor..
And I can name many other documented miracles like that. Given that science fails to provide the answer without tearing itself apart, the only logical conclusion is that the answer lies beyond science.
I also noticed how you didn't even try to tackle the Russians being driven out of Afghanistan by the mujahideen. Given that science cannot explain that without tearing itself apart, the only logical conclusion is that the answer lies with Allah.
Yeah, but he's not describing your Christian God any more. So where does that leave you? Falling back to Deism?
I also noticed how you didn't even try to tackle the Russians being driven out of Afghanistan by the mujahideen. Given that science cannot explain that without tearing itself apart, the only logical conclusion is that the answer lies with Allah.
And you didn't even try to tackle the mysterious instances of people who've forgotten entire hours of their lives and experienced complete personality changes. Given that science cannot explain these without tearing itself apart, the only logical conclusion is that aliens really are taking us into their ships and changing us.
Like all of religion, you're simply attributing everything that seems remotely mysterious to God -- without cause, or reason.
You often claim to be a scientific, rational person. You should know that the fact that science doesn't have an immediate, explicit answer for something doesn't mean science has 'torn itself apart.' (In this case, it's pretty obviously a case of the patient's immune system rejecting the tumor.)
TrashMan, the point is that I can say anything I want about Harvey, god, the invisible pink unicorn, etc. and I have just as much proof that it's true as you do. I'm not describing anything grander, i'm putting down a series of words.
Your tumor story I can't deal with because I don't know any of the details, and if it's viewed as a miracle, then it's quite likely that nobody else does either. Magic doesn't happen in the real world. The illogical conclusion is that the answer lies beyond science. The logical conclusion is that something happened that we don't fully understand yet. Give it time, and those few gaps your god lives in will all eventually disappear.
TrashMan, the point is that I can say anything I want about Harvey, god, the invisible pink unicorn, etc. and I have just as much proof that it's true as you do. I'm not describing anything grander, i'm putting down a series of words.
Not really. A magical creature and God have nothing in common really (except the fact that you can't prove they exist).
As I said, a magical unicorn isn't even remotely believable by itself, while God is.
Yeah, but he's not describing your Christian God any more. So where does that leave you? Falling back to Deism?
Why do you think that? You think that the name defines God? That if someone calls Him by a different name that suddenly makes Him a different God altogether?
As I said before - God, Allah, Jehovah ... the same Big Guy, different name and different customs.
QuoteI also noticed how you didn't even try to tackle the Russians being driven out of Afghanistan by the mujahideen. Given that science cannot explain that without tearing itself apart, the only logical conclusion is that the answer lies with Allah.
And you didn't even try to tackle the mysterious instances of people who've forgotten entire hours of their lives and experienced complete personality changes. Given that science cannot explain these without tearing itself apart, the only logical conclusion is that aliens really are taking us into their ships and changing us.
Very bad example, since alternate explanations do very much exist. And those aren't miracles.
As I said, a magical unicorn isn't even remotely believable by itself, while God is.HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
No, it means that he doesn't understand reason and his arguments are flawed/contradicting, and there's no point arguing.
I have to agree. He's unintentionally hilarious -- he throws out nonsensical arguments and then ridicules other, better-constructed reasoning. Because he's not aware of the flaws in his own reasoning, he's convinced everyone else is a nut.
He's not a bad guy, but I don't think we're going to get very far with him.
No, it means that he doesn't understand reason and his arguments are flawed/contradicting, and there's no point arguing.
Yet still, personal offenses coming from either side aren't a good thing.I have to agree. He's unintentionally hilarious -- he throws out nonsensical arguments and then ridicules other, better-constructed reasoning. Because he's not aware of the flaws in his own reasoning, he's convinced everyone else is a nut.
He's not a bad guy, but I don't think we're going to get very far with him.
One of the basic things people joining religion-related debates should know is that religious people think in a different way.
No, it means that he doesn't understand reason and his arguments are flawed/contradicting, and there's no point arguing.
I have to agree. He's unintentionally hilarious -- he throws out nonsensical arguments and then ridicules other, better-constructed reasoning. Because he's not aware of the flaws in his own reasoning, he's convinced everyone else is a nut.
But I can agree that we're not likely to get anywhere, so let's go do something with Freespace instead.
I guess I'd throw in a couple of things about NDEs:
1) First of all, claiming that there's only one kind of near death experience vision (namely, the subspace-like tunnel) is false, because the vision depends on the culture. The Japanese, for example, cross a river because their culture gives a lot of importance to that action;
Tunnel of light seems connected to G forces. Oh, you've already said it in your previous post. :)
There are differences in NDEs - I mentioned the Japanese people's vision, for example. There should be more.
There's been a lot of research on near-death experiences. (NDEs).
Interestingly, you can induce them with high G-forces.
They also seem to have profound effects on personality; individuals who experience NDEs show greater generosity, social belonging, and feelings of spirituality for the rest of their lives.
This seems to provide evidence for a biological basis of religious feelings and experiences, and may even explain the difference between someone like Goober (who 'feels' God in day-to-day life) and someone like me.
Or it may not! Further research needed.
EDIT: Incredible, I found it! All I need to do know is making sure that you can read it...
Siamo stati fantasmi
E' possibile "uscire" dal corpo? Chi torna dal coma dice di sì.
Focus - 147
10/01/2005
There's been a lot of research on near-death experiences. (NDEs).
QuoteThere's been a lot of research on near-death experiences. (NDEs).
When the brain is traumatized (through being borderline dead or through high g forces) it will create sort of a hallucination. Nothing religious about it.
BATTLE TECHNIQUE -> FAIR SHAKE
(http://www.mspaintadventures.com/advimgs/ps/ps680.gif)
You give equal consideration to both sides of the argument. Permanent +2 to "Diplomacy".