[Scotty]

Baptism doesn't seem to be that bad, either

Denomination or practice? </curious>

The current iteration is that God is infinitely forgiving, and you are saved by his grace. The faith and **** is basically in thanks.

My take on it is that you still have to accept it.  The faith is accepting it.  I suppose you could call it thanks.

[NGTM-1R]

Baptism doesn't seem to be that bad, either.

If you mean Baptist, you are clearly not doing your homework.

[Scotty]

Wow, that was a pretty big fail on my part.

[colecampbell666]

Baptism doesn't seem to be that bad, either.

If you mean Baptist, you are clearly not doing your homework.

Most baptists that I know don't seem to be the same magnitude of dicks as other religious people I know. Although that could very well be the church itself, and not a reflection on the whole crowd of them.

[NGTM-1R]

Drinking and dancing are generally prohibited by Baptists.

However the church is lax in who it will certify as a minister and has no means of internal government, meaning that all kinds of fringe groups (Like the famous Westboro Baptist Church) tend to fall under their purview.

[Kosh]

Holding us back from what?

Progress and achievement?

[Liberator]

Drinking and dancing are generally prohibited by Baptists.

However the church is lax in who it will certify as a minister and has no means of internal government, meaning that all kinds of fringe groups (Like the famous Westboro Baptist Church) tend to fall under their purview.

As a Baptist, I'll speak to this, it's one of those thing that's in the rules.  For instance, during communion, we use grape juice and not wine.

I haven't really paid attention to the high ups except that they have a tendency to censure older members who don't keep up to date on the practices and stances as they get revised based on more accurate translations.  As I've said before, I've never had a pastor who was an egomaniac, they've all been true Men of God.

The Westboro Baptists are a very small sect within baptists as a whole.  There are several within the Baptist denomination.  The largest is the Southern Baptist Convention, we tend to be conservative in our politics and somewhat relaxed in the enforcement of "the rules"(which you can find many places on the internet).  The pastor's job is to act as councilor and advisor for the church, with the actual business of the church being handled by various committees and the Deacons.

Baptists general feeling is that the average congregation member is perfectly able to interpret the scripture to they're own satisfaction.  There are other divisions within the Baptists as a whole that treat the pastor's word as law, such as the Primitive Baptists, these groups are hardly mainstream and almost cult like.

Compared to practicing catholics and several protestant denominations, we're quite liberal.

[Androgeos Exeunt]

* Androgeos Exeunt has voted.

Don't blame religion; blame the incompetence of the Terrans.

[Bobboau]

in response to the question: yes.

[karajorma]

We don't need yet another thread where Christians try to justify their faith. This thread is not about faith, it is about religion and whether that prevents the advancement of humanity as a species.

There are plenty of other threads where the other stuff can be discussed so let's keep this one on topic.

[StarSlayer]

The problem with trying to gauge the usefulness of religion is that its quite easy to point out its faults but difficult to quantify its benefits.  I can easily point at the millions who have perished due to religious intolerance, the neobarbs who refuse to see the truths of science or the maniacs who welcome the end of the world as some sort of deliverance.  Its far harder to predict what would happen if the bedrock of religion was removed.  If nothing else religion in the absence of a advanced civilization and legal framework provides a system of morals to keep people in line.  Most religions generally provide a clear cut system of laws with grave consequences in the afterlife should you fail them.  This is not to say you can't be a moral person without religion, I am a believer of reason and science and I hold myself to a strict moral code.  However, at a societal level it provides a needed framework.  I'm not sure how easily civilization would have developed without the stopgap of "laws" that religion provides until a true legal system could be built.  Its also hard to quantify the support and bedrock faith provides.  Its a little easier facing the hardships of life if you think "The big Gal or Guy" is looking over your shoulder, that there is something beyond this life if you live it well.  Religion generally provides a little hope, faith and strength that can be sometimes be difficult to come by just on logic alone.  Lets face it, when civilization collapses there will still be religion, to provide some sort of guiding light to the people.  What would happen in its absence, might be worse then we would like to imagine.

I am not a religious man, in many cases I fear the actions of zealots who hold faith and feelings over reason.  That said I recognize that simply saying religion = bad and is obsolete isn't as clear cut as most people would like.

[Flipside]

Thing is, have 'atheistic' regimes, such as China or Russia actually advanced any more swiftly than their more spiritually forgiving counterparts? However, if you look at Regimes that are based on religious doctrine, it's a whole other story.

It seems the Church doesn't hold progress back simply by existing, but can very simply hamper progress if it is in control.

[colecampbell666]

That doesn't seem like a very good point, the atheist part of those regimes isn't really front-and-center, it's just a part.

Drinking and dancing are generally prohibited by Baptists.

However the church is lax in who it will certify as a minister and has no means of internal government, meaning that all kinds of fringe groups (Like the famous Westboro Baptist Church) tend to fall under their purview.

You're kidding right? That's the opposite of the baptist(s) I know, and that's all that their church youth group is.

[Flipside]

That doesn't seem like a very good point, the atheist part of those regimes isn't really front-and-center, it's just a part.

China aggressively pursued an Atheist stance for many years to be honest, it wasn't that long ago that they had an extremely bad record for religious persecution.

[IronBeer]

(IronBeer has an internal dialogue as to whether he should join the fray... aw, sod it).

As a Catholic, I believe I may be ...erm, marginally qualified to comment on the efficacy and faults of organized religion. The way I see it, there are two distinct pieces to an individual's faith- their actual belief, and the religious community around them. Belief (the spiritual, individual part) is typically not too hard to come by (assuming the person in question is in fact faithful) or understand/ tolerate. It is the organized piece, the actual religion, the institution, that I see seems to be the biggest lightning rod.  The problem (as I see it (could it just be understood from this point forward that most of what I say is as I see it?)) is that a debate about the spiritual component will invariably lead into debate about the institution. Disagreements over some of the finer points of belief are the reason so many sects of Christianity emerged (not in the mood to do research- I'm going off what info I can pull from the top of my head).

But here's the kicker- as beings of free will, us humans have the ability to make choices independent of God; the biggest ramification of this fact is that we are free to choose our belief system as we see fit. This is where the "institution" comes into play. I think it would be a good reminder to all involved that all dominant religions today essentially started as cults. This fact may come off as distasteful to some members, but it *is* truth. I'm not going to argue over the divinity of any cult/ religious figures from the past or present (not that the divinity of Jesus is a point of contention for me anyway), but simply point out that all of these people preached a gospel that people liked, to some extent. At its core, a "religion" is really nothing more than a community of individuals who share a similar spiritual outlook, and a set of beliefs as preached (generally) by some sort of leader figure.

The trouble with a "religion" starts to arise when it becomes popular (so to speak) and begins to attract large numbers of followers, and invariably, funding. There are so many examples of what I'm talking about that I don't think I need to point any out. And, since any religion is a human institution, there is a degree of falliability in anything the higher-ups may do. Religious wars, suppression of science, collection of wisdom, and charity- a well-funded religion can precipitate all these things and more. For all the good the institution does, approximately equal evils can be found- much like humanity as a whole. If "absolute power corrupts absolutely", then how much drive could a religious higher-up have if they believe, no.. KNOW that their actions are what God desires?

And, that, as I see it, is the crux of the whole issue. Without checks on their morality or egos, religious authorities can all too easily lose sight of what their faith is really all about: (for most religions) charity for the less-fortunate, love for your neighbors, community with fellow believers, and an intimate relationship with God. Despite my Catholic upbringing (and subsequent Confirmation), I give far more attention to the words of my church's relatively-grassroots priest, and tend to take proclamations from the Vatican with a grain of salt. The Pope and Cardinals are undoubtedly holy and wise men (to me, at least), but I do feel that their life in a place such as the Vatican may result in some degree of disconnection from the actualities of the issues facing my country.

But... as it stands today, I don't feel that religion is really holding back human advancement. I personally feel that the influence of organized religion in general, and in particular my own Church, is fading. Now, surely, institutionalized religion can't be holding us Terrans back if its power is on the wane? Yes, I'm aware of the  zealots in the Middle East and the pain that religion has and is causing in that part of the world. I do, however, feel that repressive religion is beginning to lose hold in those parts of the world. Somewhat perversely, I can get behind a blossoming of freedom at the cost of religion- religion is, at is core, a personal relationship between one's self and God, and that should always be a conscious choice.

[Flipside]

I don't think you'll ever wipe out Faith, it'd be like destroying Hope, but yes, I'd agree that the influence of religious institutions are waning, despite what the News (and the institutions themselves) would have us believe.

Oddly enough, I think the concept of God as some sort of Omni-present 'judge' is the one that is fading fast, because religion is, in many ways, a self-consuming animal, the 'worse' the world gets, the greater Gods wrath will be, and yet, the worse the world gets, the less people have Faith that anyone is even bothering to look.

[IronBeer]

I don't think you'll ever wipe out Faith, it'd be like destroying Hope, but yes, I'd agree that the influence of religious institutions are waning, despite what the News (and the institutions themselves) would have us believe.

Oddly enough, I think the concept of God as some sort of Omni-present 'judge' is the one that is fading fast, because religion is, in many ways, a self-consuming animal, the 'worse' the world gets, the greater Gods wrath will be, and yet, the worse the world gets, the less people have Faith that anyone is even bothering to look.

That's really the biggest reason why I strive to keep my own nose clean, so to speak, and as far as others are concerned, I say live and let live.

[BlackDove]

Goober, come on man, you just have to post your opinion.

[Flipside]

I don't think you'll ever wipe out Faith, it'd be like destroying Hope, but yes, I'd agree that the influence of religious institutions are waning, despite what the News (and the institutions themselves) would have us believe.

Oddly enough, I think the concept of God as some sort of Omni-present 'judge' is the one that is fading fast, because religion is, in many ways, a self-consuming animal, the 'worse' the world gets, the greater Gods wrath will be, and yet, the worse the world gets, the less people have Faith that anyone is even bothering to look.

That's really the biggest reason why I strive to keep my own nose clean, so to speak, and as far as others are concerned, I say live and let live.

Exactly, I don't throw my rubbish over their fence, and they treat me in kind, everyone's happy, unfortunately, we are still a long long way from that ideal.

[colecampbell666]

Of the top of my head, cult seems to have been used a lot by religious leaders to discourage people from changing their beliefs. No one wants to be labeled as occult, so they stick to the old ways.