[Bobboau]

God is not magic. 

you can't prove god isn't magic!

[NGTM-1R]

God doesn't have to explain himself to us. And given that he can shape reality itself was he sees fit, whatever he sez is, is.

But, being God, He should know that we will want such an explanation anyways, and have it prepared.

Or!
A: He's not in fact Omniscient or Omnipotent, and hence not God.
B: He doesn't give a flying ****, and hence not loving.
C: There is no God to begin with.

As you've basically conceded you have no theological grounding (it's sort of sad I have a better understanding of Christian dogma than apparently most of the Christians here, doubly so considering I acquired such understanding after abandoning the Church), then I reassert for a different, more competent person to take up the question: How is eternal punishment moral?

[colecampbell666]

Why would he change his mind? Isn't he omnipotent/present/scient? Couldn't he factor every logical (teehee) course of action and shape the universe the way he wanted down to a "T". He wouldn't have to go back.

[blackhole]

Why would he change his mind? Isn't he omnipotent/present/scient? Couldn't he factor every logical (teehee) course of action and shape the universe the way he wanted down to a "T". He wouldn't have to go back.

No, he wouldn't, because he doesn't exist and we're just a bunch of sentient MONKEYS trying desperately to get answers to questions we will never have answers to. Humans aren't special, we just like to think we are because our lives suck too much for our feeble intellects to come to any other conclusion without acting like lemmings and committing mass suicide, although that would be to the benefit of the planet.

[Liberator]

Well, here the rub.

No matter what I say or do, I cannot provide any evidence that would prove God's existence to you.
At the same time, you can't do or say anything that would disprove God's existence to me.

All I can say is this, when you have excluded the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

Like I said, I can't prove God exists.  But, if he doesn't, why does any other this(points around the room and beyond) matter in the slightest?

[Turambar]

Like I said, I can't prove God exists.  But, if he doesn't, why does any other this(points around the room and beyond) matter in the slightest?

here's the fun part.  it doesn't matter at all.  Technically, we're all the scum on a lukewarm rock hurtling around an average star.  Thinking about it that way is pretty depressing, so it all comes down to our own lives and what -we- think is important.

The only meaning to our lives is the meaning that we make for them.

[General Battuta]

Like I said, I can't prove God exists.  But, if he doesn't, why does any other this(points around the room and beyond) matter in the slightest?

here's the fun part.  it doesn't matter at all.  Technically, we're all the scum on a lukewarm rock hurtling around an average star.  Thinking about it that way is pretty depressing, so it all comes down to our own lives and what -we- think is important.

The only meaning to our lives is the meaning that we make for them.

Yep, that.

[Goober5000]

Another religion thread?  wat?

How is eternal punishment moral?

Short answer: God says so.

Srsly.  It's God's universe, God makes the rules, and if God says X is moral, then it is.  Ain't nothing we can do about it.

Long answer: The punishment is eternal because the debt is eternal.  In the moral equation, sin is a debt that must be repaid.  If Jesus's payment is credited to your account, then you're in the clear.  If not, you have to pay it yourself.  But no person has the resources to do that, so it's like an infinite series that never reaches the target amount.

That sort of shifts the question to, why is the debt eternal?  And I'm less certain about that.  I would guess that since God himself is eternal, any sin against him has eternal effects.

It's like you guys worshiping a bunch of fairy tales. If the old crackpots in Rome who wrote the new testament decided to put James and the Giant Peach in there, you wouldn't question it and would defend it till your last breath and look like a complete moron while doing so just because its in your religion which you blindly follow like a goddamn idiot until you die and find out "Oh sh!t, wrong religion :C" and go to hell. Oh wait hell doesn't exist, its just a metaphor. But God and the divine trinity ISNT just a metaphor. Because we said so.

RIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGHT

This argument rests entirely on one premise, though, and if that premise is destroyed then the whole thing falls apart.

The premise is: Christian faith is blind faith.  It isn't.

Christian faith rests upon solid evidence.  First, we have historical documentary evidence from eyewitnesses who were there during the life of Jesus.  Second, we have testimonial evidence from Christians throughout history that God answers prayers and performs miracles.  Third, those of us who have experienced God in our lives have first-person confirmational evidence.

With every life changed, prayer answered, and miracle witnessed, God's presence and action become more and more irrefutable.

[Liberator]

Except that to any and all who dis-/don't believe, they chalk it up to magic, stupidity and anything else they can to eliminate God.  Effectively disproving His existence by castrating His messengers and followers.

[blackhole]

It's like you guys worshiping a bunch of fairy tales. If the old crackpots in Rome who wrote the new testament decided to put James and the Giant Peach in there, you wouldn't question it and would defend it till your last breath and look like a complete moron while doing so just because its in your religion which you blindly follow like a goddamn idiot until you die and find out "Oh sh!t, wrong religion :C" and go to hell. Oh wait hell doesn't exist, its just a metaphor. But God and the divine trinity ISNT just a metaphor. Because we said so.

RIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGHT

This argument rests entirely on one premise, though, and if that premise is destroyed then the whole thing falls apart.

The premise is: Christian faith is blind faith.  It isn't.

Christian faith rests upon solid evidence.  First, we have historical documentary evidence from eyewitnesses who were there during the life of Jesus.  Second, we have testimonial evidence from Christians throughout history that God answers prayers and performs miracles.  Third, those of us who have experienced God in our lives have first-person confirmational evidence.

With every life changed, prayer answered, and miracle witnessed, God's presence and action become more and more irrefutable.

HAHAHAHAHA
No large text, please.

You're funny.

Humans are silly creatures. When something happens that we don't understand, we assign it religious significance and say GOD DID IT! When something good happens or we pray to get an A on the test, study for it, then get an A, we say GOD DID IT! How do you know he did it? I mean for all you know, God is wondering what the hell is wrong with you guys and wishing he hadn't created the universe. You guys like iterating over and over that God is God and we can't possibly understand him, so by that logic you must therefore accept the possibility that you have NO F*CKING IDEA what your doing and your praying to some divine entity who doesn't give a ****. Or maybe he's malevolent and evil and likes watching us kill each other so he manipulates us into arguing with each other because he thought the Holocaust was funny. You can't disprove any of those. We can go on and on about this forever, its meaningless. Everything about religion is meaningless because none of it is falsifiable. Humans are flawed in that we fail to realize that coincidences happen, and in many cases are made exceedingly more likely when you start looking for them. Just because something happens that we can't understand doesn't mean God must have done it. Whenever there isn't a rational explanation for things, its because you don't have enough information.

First, we have historical documentary evidence from eyewitnesses who were there during the life of Jesus.

No one who wrote the bible ever met Jesus in person.

Second, we have testimonial evidence from Christians throughout history that God answers prayers and performs miracles.

Correlation does not imply causality.

Third, those of us who have experienced God in our lives have first-person confirmational evidence.

So a guy has a mental breakdown, thinks he's seen an angel and you consider that evidence? Wow man. Wow.

Effectively disproving His existence by castrating His messengers and followers.

Just like how when we thought people got sick it was because of the devil and when they were healed it was a miracle from god, right? This is the fundamental problem - when we don't understand something, you say its god, and I say we just don't understand it yet.

Hell, why does it even matter? It's pretty obvious that your "god" isn't going to do anything about anything that happens. The only thing I'll be punished for is, assuming christianity happens to be right, and Judiasm is wrong, and islam is wrong, and well you know just about every single other religion is wrong, then I go to hell in my afterlife.

I don't care.

Reality is more important then your afterlife. You're just being selfish.

[Goober5000]

Humans are silly creatures. When something happens that we don't understand, we assign it religious significance and say GOD DID IT! When something good happens or we pray to get an A on the test, study for it, then get an A, we say GOD DID IT! How do you know he did it? I mean for all you know, God is wondering what the hell is wrong with you guys and wishing he hadn't created the universe. You guys like iterating over and over that God is God and we can't possibly understand him, so by that logic you must therefore accept the possibility that you have NO F*CKING IDEA what your doing and your praying to some divine entity who doesn't give a ****. Or maybe he's malevolent and evil and likes watching us kill each other so he manipulates us into arguing with each other because he thought the Holocaust was funny. You can't disprove any of those. We can go on and on about this forever, its meaningless. Everything about religion is meaningless because none of it is falsifiable. Humans are flawed in that we fail to realize that coincidences happen, and in many cases are made exceedingly more likely when you start looking for them. Just because something happens that we can't understand doesn't mean God must have done it. Whenever there isn't a rational explanation for things, its because you don't have enough information.

That's a nice generalization you have there.  Be a shame if anything happened to it.

No one who wrote the bible ever met Jesus in person.

Mmmm, the apostles Paul, Peter, and John?  (Possibly) Mark?  James, the brother of Jesus?

Correlation does not imply causality.

True, in general.  But 2000 years of documented, consistent, reliable correlation points pretty strongly in that direction.

So a guy has a mental breakdown, thinks he's seen an angel and you consider that evidence? Wow man. Wow.

You're inventing a situation for the express purpose of shooting it down.  No, let's try being healed of injury and disease, or being delivered from drug and alcohol abuse.

The only thing I'll be punished for is, assuming christianity happens to be right, and Judiasm is wrong, and islam is wrong, and well you know just about every single other religion is wrong, then I go to hell in my afterlife.

I don't care.

K.  Be advised you might change your mind once you're there.

You're just being selfish.

Huh?

[Mars]

Ya, if the Christians are right, the rest of us might be going to hell, but that doesn't really mean they were selfish, only that they were right.

[Turambar]

If religion had proof, i'd be religious.

All I see is a pack of re-used fables, written at least a hundred years, if not more, after the events in question, and then systematically cherry-picked by the top christian officials to give the "right message" to people afterward.

[karajorma]

or being delivered from drug and alcohol abuse.

The rate of recovery from drug and alcohol isn't any better from following a religious detox program like AA\NA or a secular one. So if the numbers aren't better when God is involved how the hell can it be taken as proof of anything? Statistically if the numbers are the same as the control group it means that it's having no effect.

More interestingly though many studies have found that AA actually does worse than other systems. So to me this seems like the classic Christian gambit of praising God when something goes right and blaming yourself when something goes wrong.

K.  Be advised you might change your mind once you're there.

I'm just as worried about that as I am that Santa is bringing me coal this Christmas.

[TrashMan]

Harvey doesn't have to explain himself to us. And given that he can shape reality itself was he sees fit, whatever he sez is, is.

If Harvey is a diety (a.k.a God), then sure.

1) Harvey is not magic.  He's not some white haired old guy somewhere that does parlor tricks.  And even if we were talking about RPG type magic where you are very very powerful.  That's still not Harvey.  Remember that as the Creator, he is the source of all power, knowledge and wisdom.  Infinite, Omnipotent, and Omnicient.  A being on that scale would act in ways both subtle and great that poor simple humans can't really grasp or comprehend.

What you just did is described God, but with a different name. God, Jehovah, Alah...call him whatever you want really. Even Harvey works. But the point is, you're not describing a magical creature anymore...you're describing something far, FAR grander.

But, being God, He should know that we will want such an explanation anyways, and have it prepared.

What we want is pretty much irrelevant. He has no obligation to give as anything. Especially if we couldn't grasp the answer in the first place.




***

I also no noticed no one even tried to tackle the vanishing tumor..
And I can name many other documented miracles like that. Given that science fails to provide the answer without tearing itself apart, the only logical conclusion is that the answer lies beyond science.

[cloneof]

And now for something totally diffrent...


I'm amazed that people didn't picket the Snuffleupagus option... We have some damn serious people in here

[General Battuta]

Goob, your argument would be more convincing if other religions couldn't hold up the same well-documented proof (including miracles) for the existence of their own deities.

I really don't want to get in a debate with you, though. Faith is faith, and as long as it's not imposed on me or my government, I have no problem with it. It's an individual decision.

Harvey doesn't have to explain himself to us. And given that he can shape reality itself was he sees fit, whatever he sez is, is.

If Harvey is a diety (a.k.a God), then sure.

1) Harvey is not magic.  He's not some white haired old guy somewhere that does parlor tricks.  And even if we were talking about RPG type magic where you are very very powerful.  That's still not Harvey.  Remember that as the Creator, he is the source of all power, knowledge and wisdom.  Infinite, Omnipotent, and Omnicient.  A being on that scale would act in ways both subtle and great that poor simple humans can't really grasp or comprehend.

What you just did is described God, but with a different name. God, Jehovah, Alah...call him whatever you want really. Even Harvey works. But the point is, you're not describing a magical creature anymore...you're describing something far, FAR grander.

Yeah, but he's not describing your Christian God any more. So where does that leave you? Falling back to Deism?

I also no noticed no one even tried to tackle the vanishing tumor..
And I can name many other documented miracles like that. Given that science fails to provide the answer without tearing itself apart, the only logical conclusion is that the answer lies beyond science.

I also noticed how you didn't even try to tackle the Russians being driven out of Afghanistan by the mujahideen. Given that science cannot explain that without tearing itself apart, the only logical conclusion is that the answer lies with Allah.

And you didn't even try to tackle the mysterious instances of people who've forgotten entire hours of their lives and experienced complete personality changes. Given that science cannot explain these without tearing itself apart, the only logical conclusion is that aliens really are taking us into their ships and changing us.

Like all of religion, you're simply attributing everything that seems remotely mysterious to God -- without cause, or reason.

You often claim to be a scientific, rational person. You should know that the fact that science doesn't have an immediate, explicit answer for something doesn't mean science has 'torn itself apart.' (In this case, it's pretty obviously a case of the patient's immune system rejecting the tumor.)

[Turambar]

TrashMan, the point is that I can say anything I want about Harvey, god, the invisible pink unicorn, etc. and I have just as much proof that it's true as you do.  I'm not describing anything grander, i'm putting down a series of words.   

Your tumor story I can't deal with because I don't know any of the details, and if it's viewed as a miracle, then it's quite likely that nobody else does either.  Magic doesn't happen in the real world.  The illogical conclusion is that the answer lies beyond science.  The logical conclusion is that something happened that we don't fully understand yet.  Give it time, and those few gaps your god lives in will all eventually disappear.

[StarSlayer]

I will say one thing about religion, I look at society, the environment and think we're doomed to destroy the Earth in the next 50 odd years.  If I was a god fearing person with faith in spades I might be a bit more chipper.  The whole allegory of the den / much knowledge is much vexation.

I also noticed how you didn't even try to tackle the Russians being driven out of Afghanistan by the mujahideen. Given that science cannot explain that without tearing itself apart, the only logical conclusion is that the answer lies with Allah.

How is that a miracle? 

[General Battuta]

To them it is!

I said 'how is that a miracle' to his vanishing-tumor story. The point is that different people evaluate events in very different ways.