[Scotty]

 

I second TrashMan's statement.

[TrashMan]

There's a pill for that.

Unfortunately for you, you are beyond medical help.

[Turambar]

There's a pill for that.

Unfortunately for you, you are beyond medical help.

if there is a god, and that god is all-powerful and yet allowed iamzack's life to be as miserable as it has been, then that god is not worthy of anybody's worship.

[Scotty]

The fallacy with that is why would God help her out if she doesn't care/worship/believe in Him?  You can't just claim "my life sucks, so if God won't help me, he's a prick."

[Turambar]

The fallacy with that is why would God help her out if she doesn't care/worship/believe in Him?  You can't just claim "my life sucks, so if God won't help me, he's a prick."

maybe we would believe in god if god had shown any signs of existing or having any effect on the world.

I'm actually pretty curious about what Trashman's probably emotionally loaded, otherwise-explainable proof of god is

[Flipside]

I'm afraid the tale of the expulsion from Eden pretty much set me against that particular version of God. The first thing man gets punished for is gaining knowledge, as though being aware of the world around you is some kind of crime, as though you deserve punishment for daring to question what is or what may be, for daring to ask 'Who am I?'

To me, that goes against the whole point of intelligent life, which is to try and understand ourselves and the Universe we are born into, the more we understand, the less we fear, the less we fear, the less we try to destroy.

[TrashMan]

I'm actually pretty curious about what Trashman's probably emotionally loaded, otherwise-explainable proof of god is

proofs. Plural.

Many examples. But I can give you one if you want.

How about a massive, fatal tumor that completley dissapeares within 24 hours after prayer in a sacred place?

I'm one of the first people to acknowledge the powers of the human mind and body (and indeed, I read a lot about that) - from the placebo effect to hypnosis, it is the mind that actually control all processes in the body, even if subconciously. If a man could conciously control all body processes he could do amazing things. But still, those things would be limited by that is physicly and biologicly possible.
A giant tumor can't completey dissapear in 24 hours, even if the hole body was doing it's darndest to destroy it, just like a large wound cant heal itself within minutes, but it rather takes weeks.,,and that's with stiches and bandages.

[BlackDove]

Oh wow.

[Liberator]

I'm afraid the tale of the expulsion from Eden pretty much set me against that particular version of God. The first thing man gets punished for is gaining knowledge, as though being aware of the world around you is some kind of crime, as though you deserve punishment for daring to question what is or what may be, for daring to ask 'Who am I?'

To me, that goes against the whole point of intelligent life, which is to try and understand ourselves and the Universe we are born into, the more we understand, the less we fear, the less we fear, the less we try to destroy.

Except kara, God knew that Eve would take the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge, even before she took it, before the serpent even offered it.  It was in His plan for Humanity for them to be turned out from the Garden when they were ready.  Think of the Garden as a nursery, you keep your children there, in total safety until they are ready to deal with the world around them.  Adam and Eve were perfect innocents, relying on God's graces to keep them safe, fed and happy.  After Eve took the fruit, those graces were removed, and Mankind became what we are now.  We rise or fall on our own.  The only part God sees after is the Soul, and he sacrificed much to ensure that the Soul would not be cast into the Lake of Fire.

[Blue Lion]

I'm actually pretty curious about what Trashman's probably emotionally loaded, otherwise-explainable proof of god is

proofs. Plural.

Many examples. But I can give you one if you want.

How about a massive, fatal tumor that completley dissapeares within 24 hours after prayer in a sacred place?

I'm one of the first people to acknowledge the powers of the human mind and body (and indeed, I read a lot about that) - from the placebo effect to hypnosis, it is the mind that actually control all processes in the body, even if subconciously. If a man could conciously control all body processes he could do amazing things. But still, those things would be limited by that is physicly and biologicly possible.
A giant tumor can't completey dissapear in 24 hours, even if the hole body was doing it's darndest to destroy it, just like a large wound cant heal itself within minutes, but it rather takes weeks.,,and that's with stiches and bandages.

Then why doesn't prayer work every time?

[Flipside]

I'm afraid the tale of the expulsion from Eden pretty much set me against that particular version of God. The first thing man gets punished for is gaining knowledge, as though being aware of the world around you is some kind of crime, as though you deserve punishment for daring to question what is or what may be, for daring to ask 'Who am I?'

To me, that goes against the whole point of intelligent life, which is to try and understand ourselves and the Universe we are born into, the more we understand, the less we fear, the less we fear, the less we try to destroy.

Except kara, God knew that Eve would take the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge, even before she took it, before the serpent even offered it.  It was in His plan for Humanity for them to be turned out from the Garden when they were ready.  Think of the Garden as a nursery, you keep your children there, in total safety until they are ready to deal with the world around them.  Adam and Eve were perfect innocents, relying on God's graces to keep them safe, fed and happy.  After Eve took the fruit, those graces were removed, and Mankind became what we are now.  We rise or fall on our own.  The only part God sees after is the Soul, and he sacrificed much to ensure that the Soul would not be cast into the Lake of Fire.

Only bit that confuses me about that is the whole 'original sin' concept, since that means that, we were saved from a lake of fire that we were condemned to by God's design in the first place, if the Fall was planned, possibly even designed, then, in truth, humanity was to blame for absolutely nothing, in fact, they were the victims of power-plays between Satan and God, and yet they alone seem to be the only ones made to pay the price for it.

Edit: You could argue that Satan got booted out as well, but consider this, for being the victim, humanity get the lake of fire, for being the orchestrator of the offence, Satan gets to be the ruler of his own kingdom, and it's not like Satan ever looks unhappy, apparently he enjoys his work. So what kind of Justice is that? Seems to me that, other than Cannon Fodder for some Apocolyptic war, neither of them could give a damn about actual people.

[Scotty]

possibly even designed

By the serpent (read: Satan).  He coerced Eve to eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.  Until then, she had not concept that the serpent might be trying to mislead her.  Satan f*cked it up for everyone.

As for the expulsion, do you mitigate punishment for someone just because you are their friends/parents?  "Oh, whoops, you stole from someone else, but your my friend/child, so I won't punish you."  Not a good precedent/policy to set.

[Flipside]

I was responding to assertions by Liberator that God had pre-knowledge of the original sin

And even so, the Bible states that Man was totally innocent when created, too trusting, if an adult handed his 3-year old child a gun, and lets it hang around with a psychopath, is the child to blame if it shoots someone?

[Turambar]

If god is all-powerful, then why would he put up with satan's **** when satan could be gone with a single thought?

At least in Islam it makes sense where satan is an agent of god, ordered specifically to try and tempt people away and lead them to hell.  Either way, christian or muslim, god is a dick for creating such a situation, and is also a dick for answering one tumor-removal prayer and leaving all of the others unanswered.

[Scotty]

leaving all of the others unanswered.

Have you ever seen Bruce Almighty?

[Turambar]

leaving all of the others unanswered.

Have you ever seen Bruce Almighty?

i know you're being silly, but why would time matter to an omnipotent being?

[iamzack]

The fallacy with that is why would God help her out if she doesn't care/worship/believe in Him?  You can't just claim "my life sucks, so if God won't help me, he's a prick."

Actually, I believed in God as recently as 2-3 years ago. Interestingly enough, my life's gotten much better since I no longer have the guilt and hell-threats hanging over my head. Hmmm...

[colecampbell666]

There's a pill for that.

Unfortunately for you, you are beyond medical help.

That's called flaming, and it's against the rules here.

Except kara [...] The only part God sees after is the Soul, and he sacrificed much to ensure that the Soul would not be cast into the Lake of Fire.

A. That's not kara, and B:

If he's omnipotent, why would he have to sacrifice anything?

[TrashMan]

If god is all-powerful, then why would he put up with satan's **** when satan could be gone with a single thought?

At least in Islam it makes sense where satan is an agent of god, ordered specifically to try and tempt people away and lead them to hell.  Either way, christian or muslim, god is a dick for creating such a situation, and is also a dick for answering one tumor-removal prayer and leaving all of the others unanswered.

Satan is His creation too, isn't it? You don't kill your shield just for being a (very) bad boy. And I don't think Satan enjoys Hell.
At the end of the day, God has a plan. It's pretty much impossible to tell what it is, but there is one thing many people are forgetting - exactly what do we get afterward.

If I pricked you, but I also gave you a bajillion dollars, a house, a car and pretty much everything else you wanted in your life...would you call me evil and a bastard cause I pricked you?
Think of it this way - all of the misery and troubles of life could be like a mere prick compared to what awaits us.

Then why doesn't prayer work every time?

Cause God is not your personal servant?

[iamzack]

There is nothing that is so good it would turn my life into a mere prick.