[NFSRacer]

Hey, can anyone help me?  I just got the SCP reinstalled after not having it for who knows how long, and now I'm running into an issue with the SCP features and detailing enhancements.  I can get them to show on the MediaVP mod, but not on anything else.  Can someone explain to me what I missed?

[Qent]

A debug log and/or at least a screenshot of your folder setup would be helpful. My first guess is that the other mods are expecting a mediavps folder, but there's only a mediavps_3612 one.

[NFSRacer]

Yeah, that's what I'm seeing, actually.  That's the only MediaVP folder in the FS2 root folder.  Do I just need to rename the folder?

[Qent]

Nonono, don't do that!

You would put these in that folder: http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,65038.0.html

What's going on is that there are two versions of the MediaVPs that mods use, and they're not quite compatible. What you should do is download the 3.6.10 MediaVPs and put those in a folder called mediavps. The new MediaVPs should stay in mediavps_3612 because newer mods expect to find them there and will break otherwise.

If you want to try a 3.6.10 mod with the new MediaVPs, replace "mediavps" with "mediavps_3612" in its mod.ini.

[NFSRacer]

Well, that's kinda odd.  Shouldn't the 3.6.12 VPs be backwards compatible?  I mean, all the mods that come with the installer as 3.6.10 mods, right?

Never mind with the issue anymore!  I got it!

[General Battuta]

What did you got? I am afraid what you got may end up breaking many campaigns.

Right now you can only use the 3.6.12 MVPs with Blue Planet, Blue Planet 2, Vassago's Dirge, Wings of Dawn, and...I think that's it.

[Shivan Hunter]

Transcend works. Derelict is broken in one mission by beam fade. Storm Front, I think, I tried to play and it wouldn't work at all, but that may be on my end.

So the BP campaigns, Vassago's Dirge, WoD, Transcend, and _maybe_ a few others, but we can't guarantee that anything else will work with the new stuff.

[NFSRacer]

Well, thus far, I'm guessing the new SCP versions are bring up more problems than they are solving.  Way I see it, don't fix what isn't broken, and fix what is.  Everything about the older versions seemed fine to me.  I'm not bad mouthing the developers, just saying...

Anywho, all I did was just change the line in the INI file in one of the mods from "mediavps" to "mediavps_3612".  That gave me all the new shiny things that the SCP is supposed to have.

[FUBAR-BDHR]

More likely these things were already broken and the new code catches those errors where the old code didn't.  Check TBP and Zathras.  The data was bad all along the code just didn't happen to catch it so updates were needed to fix those existing but undetected errors for the data to work with newer builds.  You as a user might not crash until a few missions later and wonder why.  So the new code is safer then it has ever been and still fully backward compatible. 

Now the MediaVps themselves may make use of new features added to the code that result in unexpected behavior in 3rd party campaigns but that's a whole other ball of wax. 

[General Battuta]

Well, thus far, I'm guessing the new SCP versions are bring up more problems than they are solving.

You are confused. An SCP version is not a mediavps version. Your issue is with the MediaVPs, asset and content packs which are often released in the wake of a new SCP executable release.

SCP modifies code. MediaVPs modify assets, models, art, sound - the stuff that gets fed to the code.

SCP upgrades have done nothing but improve the engine. 3.6.10 for example was a buggy, ridiculous piece of trash. 3.6.12 is a huge step forward in terms of stability and reliability, and 3.6.13 in turn runs massively faster than 3.6.12 did.

You may have issues with the MediaVPs, but please take the time to figure out what to criticize before you open fire. Saying that new SCP versions bring up more problems than they solve is patently false.

Anywho, all I did was just change the line in the INI file in one of the mods from "mediavps" to "mediavps_3612".  That gave me all the new shiny things that the SCP is supposed to have.

And also put the campaign in danger of breaking, depending on which one it is. But with luck you'll be okay.

Again: the only mods that are currently, to my knowledge, 100% safe to use with the 3.6.12 MediaVPs are the ones I listed above. Others - Derelict, for instance - will not work with the 3.6.12 MVPs. If you feel the 3.6.10 MVPs were fine, there's nothing stopping you from using those under 3.6.12 exes - simply place them in a folder called 'mediavps', leave the 3.6.12 MVPs in mediavps_3612.

[Qent]

Wasn't beam fade fixed?

As for fixing what's broken... the whole point of the MediaVPs is to upgrade retail assets, which is basically fixing what is not broken.

[Shivan Hunter]

Well, actually, I never patched the beam fade, thus never got past that one Derelict mission, thus never figured out whether there isn't something else besides beam fade that breaks Derelict. The only one I've confirmed, per se, is Transcend.

[NFSRacer]

And also put the campaign in danger of breaking, depending on which one it is. But with luck you'll be okay.

Again: the only mods that are currently, to my knowledge, 100% safe to use with the 3.6.12 MediaVPs are the ones I listed above. Others - Derelict, for instance - will not work with the 3.6.12 MVPs. If you feel the 3.6.10 MVPs were fine, there's nothing stopping you from using those under 3.6.12 exes - simply place them in a folder called 'mediavps', leave the 3.6.12 MVPs in mediavps_3612.

Well, would Transcend and Sync count as 3.6.10 mods?  I'm just asking because I got Transcend to work perfectly for me.

Now the MediaVps themselves may make use of new features added to the code that result in unexpected behavior in 3rd party campaigns but that's a whole other ball of wax. 

And you're more or less saying that the new VPs are causing problems with some campaign mods now?

[General Battuta]

And also put the campaign in danger of breaking, depending on which one it is. But with luck you'll be okay.

Again: the only mods that are currently, to my knowledge, 100% safe to use with the 3.6.12 MediaVPs are the ones I listed above. Others - Derelict, for instance - will not work with the 3.6.12 MVPs. If you feel the 3.6.10 MVPs were fine, there's nothing stopping you from using those under 3.6.12 exes - simply place them in a folder called 'mediavps', leave the 3.6.12 MVPs in mediavps_3612.

Well, would Transcend and Sync count as 3.6.10 mods?  I'm just asking because I got Transcend to work perfectly for me.

These campaigns may work fine under the 3.6.12s. No guarantee, but it's a distinct possibility. Derelict is one campaign that will not work under the 3.6.12s.

Now the MediaVps themselves may make use of new features added to the code that result in unexpected behavior in 3rd party campaigns but that's a whole other ball of wax.  

And you're more or less saying that the new VPs are causing problems with some campaign mods now?

The official position of the MediaVPs team is that the MediaVPs have never promised backwards compatibility except with retail. I don't agree with this stance, but there it is.

[NFSRacer]

Well, that's stupid!  Why would they make their game without backwards computability?

[General Battuta]

Well, that's stupid!  Why would they make their game without backwards computability?

The MediaVPs are not 'the game'. The MediaVPs are content packs that are separate from the game engine itself (the SCP releases.)

I myself believe the MediaVPs should maintain backwards compatibility. In the meantime, however, this is what we have, and the list of campaigns that are guaranteed safe with the 3.6.12 MVPs is pretty much: Silent Threat and FSPort (with the 3.6.12 FSPort MVPs), Wings of Dawn, Vassago's Dirge, Blue Planet 1 and 2, and - I believe - the recent Ancient-Shivan War rerelease.

[The E]

Well, we do take care not to break compatibility without damn good reason. Note that, for example, this release broke every mod that used texture replacement to customize the look of the Hatshepsut, for example.

Problem is, we can't keep old assets around just for the sake of it if they conflict with new assets. And keeping assets around that are not used by the mediavps themselves would be inefficient.

Also, we are perfectly willing to tell people what they need to do to get their mods to work with the 3.6.12 VPs, but it's NOT our job to make absolutely sure that we don't break anything.

TL;DR: Quit whining. Decision's been made, and we're not going back.

[Qent]

Note that, for example, this release broke every mod that used texture replacement to customize the look of the Hatshepsut, for example.

All... one of them?

I think a page (on the wiki or somewhere) of compatibility guidelines for modders would be helpful. Should campaigns with mods just state their MediaVP requirements and all bets are off if you don't meet those? Should they duplicate all MediaVP assets on which they depend? Should they be compatible with retail assets and provide an optional package for if the MediaVPs are present?

[Zacam]

That and we don't even really maintain Retail compatibility. The missions are the closest thing you'll get, but they use backgrounds and other features that are not possible under Retail, so they likely won't work under "Retail" executable, never mind that the Goals, Events and 'meat' of the mission files is still unaltered.

And if we maintained _strict_ retail (As in, FS2 exec) then there wouldn't be much in the way of MediaVPs at all other than some DDSifying of some images because we wouldn't be using the High-Poly models (with nameplates and other Texture Replaceable bits) that we are using today.

The Hatshepsut wasn't the primary reason (though it illustrates a damn good one) for the adjustment made. .10 had more texture breakage changes over previous than .12 has over .10. But until things get ironed out a bit more (read: more models get completed and more efficiently textured) it's going to keep happening. Everything that uses the MediaVPs should be able to continue using the MediaVPs, but there are customizations made, sometimes to a single texture on a ship that are expected to not be changed that when it does change, breaks because of the basic assumption. And it's not that the assumption is wrong or incorrect, it just doesn't hold up on the long term.

And with a project as big and as slow as the MediaVPs and the fact that everybody always wants to work on something OTHER than it (be it a TC or a custom mod with something other than the same-old-models) we don't see a huge amount of progress by compare to others.

FSU SVN: First commit was 10/27/2008. Current Revision #: 518
BP SVN: First Commit was 10/06/2009. Current Revision #: 3659

It's not just that there are new models there, but more range of possibilities. Aside from some texture replacement or background changes or fixing the occasional mistake or model dimension corrections, nothing needs an edit mission wise for the MediaVPs. So that leave us with shaders, tables (when there is a change in the model that requires it), models and effects. And sometimes there are big enough changes between the old and the new that providing a way for people to have the ability to take the time to adjust to those changes is a good idea, however it ends up being handled.