[Martinus]

I think it was the special edition DVD of ep.1 where Lucas said that the lightsaber fight at the end of jedi was between an untrained kid and a cripple.

How do you define who is best with a lightsaber anyway? Yoda practically relies on the force to even lift one so you might say that Yoda is not the best with a lightsaber, the person who can fight with the most skill without relying on the force would be the best. At least that's how I look at it. *Shrugs*

Assuming that Dooku is using the force to more or less the same extent that any other able bodied jedi is he would appear to be the most skillful. Then again he's a pretty elderly guy so he might just be as reliant on the force as Yoda.

[Fineus]

Isn't relying on the force a part of lightsaber fighting - to anticipate your enemies attacks and so on (disregarding Yoda who probably makes heavy use of the force to jump around like a rabbit on speed..). If force is not involved in lightsaber fighting then it becomes a case of who the best swordsman is... just because it's with a lightsaber shouldn't make it any different.

[Martinus]

Originally posted by Thunder
Isn't relying on the force a part of lightsaber fighting - to anticipate your enemies attacks and so on (disregarding Yoda who probably makes heavy use of the force to jump around like a rabbit on speed..). If force is not involved in lightsaber fighting then it becomes a case of who the best swordsman is... just because it's with a lightsaber shouldn't make it any different.

I was assuming some level of force usage was an aspect of LS combat, hence I said that if Dooku used the force to more or less the same level as other jedi i.e. he's simply using it to make tactical judgements then he would appear to be the best. Based on a size comparison and considering that Luke could carry Yoda around on his back with little discernable effort would suggest that Yoda also uses the force to accentuate his strength as he is seen pressing against Dooku's saber blade. Lets face it though Lucas isn't exactly famous for sticking to physics if it would impact or complicate the storyline.

[StratComm]

I could be missing something, but can anyone actually argue that the new Star Wars are better than the old ones?  OK, so they might have better effects, but the movies themselves (especially episode II) are terrible.  But when it comes to the argument over Vader vs. Luke, you could say that Luke was getting beaten until Vader says that line "if you cannot be turned, then perhaps she will," that Luke goes off and starts kicking Vader's tail.  So you could argue that it was Luke's passion, more than his skill, that let him win over an obviously better-trained Sith.  The emporer, on the other hand, wanted Luke to win and kill Vader, thus turning him to the dark side and replacing an aging, mechanically dependant Dark lord with a young and powerful one.  It is only when Luke refuses to strike the death-dealing blow on Vader that Palepatine tried to kill him.  But chalk up another inconsistancy for the prequils, I guess...

[Fineus]

Maeg - Gotcha, and agree

Strat - Again, I see what you mean. I've given up on watching Episodes 1,2 and when it's out - 3 as films leading up to episodes 4,5,6. The errors made between them make it better to watch the films as if you'd never seen 4,5,6 before and were watching them for the first time - it makes it more enjoyable.

Ja Ja Binks is still unforgivable though..

[Martinus]

Anyone noticed that even though the saber fights in empire and Jedi aren't as flashy they convey a far more powerful show. The combatants really do look like they're fighting for their lives. The prequels just don't have the same urgency and power.

Bring back Irvine Kershner I say! I recon Spielberg would do a fantastic job as well, pity Lucas is too limited to give him the directors chair.

[Stealth]

Originally posted by Thunder
Isn't relying on the force a part of lightsaber fighting - to anticipate your enemies attacks and so on

somewhat.

remember in the end of episode 2.

Dooku: "It's obvious that this battle can't be won by our knowledge of the force, but by our skills with a lightsaber" (pulls out his lightsaber)

so obviously the lightsaber aspect relies on the force somewhat, is still a different aspect.

Look at Mara Jade, she was incredibly strong in the force, but yet she didn't know how to use a lightsaber.  `

[Knight Templar]

yeah, just because you are strong in the force doesn't automatically make you adept at lightsaber fighting.

It'd be like drawing a really good picture by tracing it, but you have no motorskills so you just go all over the place.. or something like that.

[Vertigo1]

Don't forget that each Jedi has his/her own style of fighting.  Anakin (young) has a more aggressive style while Obi-Wan is more "by the book".

As for the Luke vs. Vader fight, remember that Vader is half-machine.  He was an old man, and add on that he recieved massive injuries from the events in Ep3 (oh come on!  Its not like you didn't already know this!), its quite impressive how he took on someone far younger than him.  Hell, he even matched his old master in Ep4!  Thats gotta say something.

[Ulundel]

Well, it seems that we're talkin' about lightsabers and force here now. In that case Vader is surely the best. Remember, he's the only one who can use the force without raising hand or somethin'

And of course they have to use the force during LS fight. remember the end of Ep2, where Anakin cuts out the power line and lights go off...

[Unknown Target]

Ph34r the Gr33n Y0gurt of D00M!

[Tar-Palantir]

The three way Obi-Mual-other guy in Ep1 was rather good, but I'll have to go with Vader and Obi-wan in 'New Hope' in joint first place with Luck and Vader in 'Empire' as the best ones LS fighters.

As an aside, I didn't find the Yoda-Dooku to be that impressive.

As an another aside, one reason why the prequels arn't as good is because they have to put across too much of a story. With 4,5 and 6 you just accepted that the Empire was, the Jedi were extincit etc. With the new ones they have to get to that point which is a lot harder to do.

[Razor]

My vote goes to Kyle Katarn. He owns both Yoda, not to mention Luke. Anakin? Bah He would wet his pants when Kyle Katarn gives him a shock. Why do I think Kyle is the best? Cause he wields with both sides of the Force. He defeated 9 Dark Jedi and many reborns and shadow troopers. He has a sence of humor. He owns any Jedi in Star Wars. Luke is a boy. He can't use the Force as good as Kyle. Oh yeah Luke defeated Vader. Heh Vader is a cripple. Anyone could have defeated him.

[Razor]

Originally posted by USS Alexander

Clonewars is definetly the best SW movie i saw...(and i saw them all)

I don't think so. The only thing that CW is worse than Ep 1 is the jedi battle. In Ep 1 you have a load of new stuff. Dual bladed saber, laser doors, intense fighting. Coll slicing of droids. Pod races. But the best is the fight Maul-Qui gon- Obi. In ep 2 the only new thing is two saber battle wich lasted for 5 seconds. By the way, Anakin sucks at being a jedi. Obi wan is the next best after Kyle Katarn.

[Ulundel]

Originally posted by Razor
Heh Vader is a cripple. Anyone could have defeated him.

[Al]I don't think so Tim[/Al]

[Ulundel]

Originally posted by Razor


I don't think so. The only thing that CW is worse than Ep 1 is the jedi battle. In Ep 1 you have a load of new stuff. Dual bladed saber, laser doors, intense fighting. Coll slicing of droids. Pod races. But the best is the fight Maul-Qui gon- Obi. In ep 2 the only new thing is two saber battle wich lasted for 5 seconds. By the way, Anakin sucks at being a jedi. Obi wan is the next best after Kyle Katarn.

Ep 1 is the worse. UGH! it isn't SW at all. Ep 1 is for kids. Seems that disney helped Lucas with ep 1...

[Razor]

Originally posted by Vertigo1
 Hell, he even matched his old master in Ep4!  Thats gotta say something.

Obi wan could have kicked his ass if there were no storm ts. He practically "surrendered" when he saw that Luke and the others were safe. He turned off his saber and Vader slashed him.
In Ep 5 Luke was defeated because Vader injured him with throwing things at him. And the foolish Luke at the end of the battle just used one arm in fighting while Vader used both. It was like he was asking for death. However Vader spared him in a way. He didnt kill him although Luke was at lets say 1% health.

[Razor]

Originally posted by Ten of Twelve


[Al]I don't think so Tim[/Al]

Not Tim. Razor.    R-A-Z-O-R

[Ulundel]

Originally posted by Razor

Not Tim. Razor.    R-A-Z-O-R

[Stealth]

Originally posted by Ten of Twelve
Well, it seems that we're talkin' about lightsabers and force here now. In that case Vader is surely the best. Remember, he's the only one who can use the force without raising hand or somethin'

lifting the hand has nothing to do with it!  i mean, on MANY occasions Luke used the force (in the movies) where he lifted C3PO with the Ewoks, as well as on many occasions he used the force without using his hands.

moving his hands have nothing to do with it.

Kueller could 0wn all... he was farrrrr more powerful than any Jedi, and yet he was only a boy.  the force was so strong with him it distorted his face and he had to wear a mask.  he took on "Master" Luke (this is supposedly in the future, when han and leia had the twins and anakin) and the only way they could beat him was to create a bubble in the force and then leia shot him with a laser.