Author Topic: Why building a new Collosus right away would be practical  (Read 12226 times)

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Why building a new Collosus right away would be practical
The thing with the Colossus is that people want it to do what it's not meant to do.  It doesn't dart in nose-to-nose with Shivan destroyers because that's not how it was designed.  Just look at the turret layout for proof.  You've got six huge beam cannons down each the port and starboard sides.  It's like ye warships of olde (you know, the ones that float on the water) that maneuver to fire from the broadside of itself into the broadside of another ship.  Put three Ravanas on each side of the Colossus, and they're meat.  Put them in front of or behind the Colossus, and you've got a six kilometer long hunk of Terran-Vasudan scrap.  You might want to note that that statement holds true for a lot of Terran ship designs.  Just look at the turret placement on the Deimos, Iceni, Orion, etc.  Most, if not all of the anti-capitalship punch comes from cannons mounted on the sides.  Any ship is a lot more effective when the mission designer knows how it should be used.  ;)

As for starting construction of a new Colossus immediately after Capella's destruction, it's a bad idea.  The GTVA just lost an entire star system, along with a decent chunk of its workforce and consumer population.  Maybe economic depression is an overstatement of what is likely to come, but the GTVA is definately doomed to a hard recession.  Perhaps you could come up with the resources and labor, but if so, it would be better to use those resources to strengthen the economy before building a warship that isn't immediately necessary.

That leads to the next point.  The Shivans are gone for an indefinate period, and the NTF has been crushed.  For the moment, you're in a state of galactic peace, so there is no necessity for a huge warship to be built.  This is a situation where a wise politician would be putting money into anything possible to get civilian manufacturing rebuilt and the number of taxpayers back up (the GTVA did just lose a whole lot of them, after all).

Finally, even if production time is halved due to equipment and designs already being prepared, the Colossus was really a twenty year old design before it even saw combat.  Now, in present day navies, if a ship has run for twenty years, it's served its time and is due to be replaced by something less....well....obsolete.  Building a new Colossus after the Capella incident would be roughly equivilant to me buying a Pentium 75MHz priced as new.

All said, a new Colossus would be a really bad idea.  I've seen some better ideas rolling about campaigns in development though.  New ship classes are probably the best idea.  Carriers are a nice idea, as Juggernauts would have a hard time standing up against a determined squadron of Helios-equipped bombers with fighter escort.  (Remember, future heavy bombers would likely be designed with the Helios in mind, simply because its bigger and badder than the Cyclops.  As for bombers being slow, juggernauts don't exactly outpace the Perseus either.  :P)  Another idea would be increased specialization in capital ships.  If you strip most of the anti-fighter defenses off a corvette, you can allocate more power to anti-warship beams, giving you a nifty little frigate capable of downing far larger capital ships.  Likewise, if you yank the anti-warship equipment from a cruiser, you can beef up power to engines and tack on even more anti-fighter turrets to make an escort frigate.

The Colossus was a demonstration that bigger is not always better (though, it is more impressive when you see it just jump in and vape a corvette in one shot).  Now, before you tout the Sathanas, remember it's not much better in any way.  It's just designed for the kind of frontal assault that some people like to put juggernauts up to.  I daresay the Sathanas is actually more vulnerable to bomber attack, but that's a train of thought for another day.

 

Offline LtNarol

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Why building a new Collosus right away would be practical
We agree on more points than not, but on your suggestion of bombers, I must refute.  Faster than Sathani big bombers may be, faster than those annoying things called enemy fighters (particularly the basilisk, as they have a good number of missiles) they are not.  Thus, bombers, even with fighter escort, would have trouble getting through the shear number of enemy fighters Shivan trailer homes tend to carry. ;)

 

Offline diamondgeezer

Why building a new Collosus right away would be practical
Unless you have Alpha One as the fighter escort. In High Noon, for example, Cancer Wing would have destroyed a wing of fighter cover for your Bakhas, but had you been flying fighter escort instead of bombers, you could easily have kept the Shivans at bay long enough for the bombers to wreak havoc. The disadvantage would be that the AI bombers would not have prosecuted the Sathanas' beam with such prejudice, but that's the FS2 AI for you...

Sucking up to the boss aside, I'm sticking with Aldo's philosophy - taking fighters and bombers off the destroyers allows destroyers to be much tougher, dedicated anti-cap weapons whilst the new carrier classes can carry many more combat craft than a size-equvilent destroyer. Okay, you have to build two ships instead of one, but the carriers are relatively cheap (fighter assests aside), and each ship is far better at its assigned task than the old-style destroyers ever where. By combining the destroyer and carrier as the lynch-pin of a battle group, you increase both flexibility and offensive power :nod:

My plan for dealing with a Sathanas would be to fill the sky with bombers and fighter escort. Capital ships could hang back and give long-range beam support, retreating if threatened, but the brunt of the work wouild be done with bombers. Perhaps they would target a specific system such as the main beams or the engines, rather than to simply try and destroy the thing, but one the enemy was disarmed or disabled you could bring in caps to finish it off at leisure, bringing fighters back to cover your own warships. Easy money :nod:

*feels the need to write some Sathanas-killing missions...*

 
Why building a new Collosus right away would be practical
If you put two wings of escort on one wing of medium/heavy bombers, you'd be surprised how well the bombers do, assuming they stick around the rear of the Sathanas, where it can contribute almost no anti-fighter fire of its own.  Yes, the fighter bay is right there, but in that position, the escort can shoot fighters down practically as soon as they exit the bay.  With the Sathanas, it's all about approach.  Once you're in close, it's fairly easy to defend yourself and continue bombing, and that being the case, you just need a little bit of time and a diligent support ship.

It would still take a large number of fighters and bombers to survive the approach though, hence the need/desire for a dedicated carrier class vessel.  Something almost destroyer size with a fighterbay taking up a third to half the innards...

Of course, a little creative use of a Meson Bomb does the trick even better than those dinky Helios.  ;)

Sorry...  That was shameless of me.  I'm going to go sit in the corner and think about how I can feel less guilty about that next time.

 

Offline mikhael

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Why building a new Collosus right away would be practical
Quote
Originally posted by diamondgeezer
...'m sticking with Aldo's philosophy - taking fighters and bombers off the destroyers allows destroyers to be much tougher, dedicated anti-cap weapons whilst the new carrier classes can carry many more combat craft than a size-equvilent destroyer. Okay, you have to build two ships instead of one, but the carriers are relatively cheap (fighter assests aside), and each ship is far better at its assigned task than the old-style destroyers ever where. By combining the destroyer and carrier as the lynch-pin of a battle group, you increase both flexibility and offensive power :nod:


There is, after all, a reason why modern naval battlegroups are arranged the way they are: Destroyers are much better at being, well, destroyers when they don't need to worry about fighter launch/recovery. Carriers are much better at launching wings of fighters when they don't have to trade broadsides with enemy capital ships. Aldo is dead on. 100%.

Not only that, but a carrier should carry one hell of a lot more fighters than a destroyer AND be able to stay well back from the lines.  Meanwhile, cruisers and destroyers get in the juggernauts face (and flanks) to distract it and the enemy fighter screen and provide cover for the incoming waves of superiority and bomber craft launched by the carriers.

Mind you, I don't want to be on that carrier when the Sathanas commander is the one picking the terms of the engagement.
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Offline Anaz

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Why building a new Collosus right away would be practical
Quote
Originally posted by BlueFlames
Sorry...  That was shameless of me.  I'm going to go sit in the corner and think about how I can feel less guilty about that next time.


don't appologize...that is merely normal here on HLP :D
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Why building a new Collosus right away would be practical
Personally, I think that going specialized might be smart.  The Colossus was designed to be a bit of everything.  Anti-cap weapon, anti-figher abilities, and a massive figher bay.  The combination rendered it too huge to be really effective at anything.  I think that the ships need to be smaller, and more specialized.

First, I would make anti-bomb weapons.  Beams are good, but bombs don't dodge.  I'd take the standard 'laser' turrets, make them weaker, and pump up their firing rate.  That should take care of the bombs.  It would also allow the hull to have enhanced protection against energy weapons, if the risk of kinetic weapons is reduced.

Then, all the ships would serve more specific roles.  There would be a carrier.  It would be large, and equipped well enough so that it could handle a cruiser or a handful of fighter or bomber wings on its own, but its strength would be in massive fighter/bomber complement.

An anti-cap ship would be a must.  It would have good anti-bomb defence, with anti-fighter weapons limited to close range combat.  Even so, it would neccesarily weak against fighters.  However, it would be equipped massive anti-cap beams and torps.  I would probably put most of the beams in the forward arc, with some smaller cruiser defense beams on other firing arcs.  I would balance it with high turning mobility, though.  It may not need to be super fast, as it's not targeting highly mobile targets that could outrun it, but it would need a high turning rate, so as to make sure that it can always train its most powerful weapons on the target.

Next, the anti-fighter cruiser.  It would probably be the smallest.  It's defenses would be 360° as well.  Fighter beams would probably be the main armament, along with the given anti-bomb turrets.  It would be fast and maneuvorable, so as to quickly get to where it is needed.

Obviously, these ships would all need to work together, but it might be possible, since it would also be easier to customise a task force to a given assignment.

Each ship would be modular, so that parts can be quickly built, assembled, and repaired.  They would also be highly automated, thus reducing overall size and crew complement.

This is just my idea, rather disjointed at this relatively late hour, but my idea nontheless.

2 cents over...

 

Offline Sandwich

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Why building a new Collosus right away would be practical
Quote
Originally posted by JudgeMental
I'd take the standard 'laser' turrets, make them weaker, and pump up their firing rate.


*shamelessly points to CapShip Turret Upgrade link in siggy*

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Why building a new Collosus right away would be practical
sandwich couldnt say it better with his ARROW!

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those turrets are hot u guys should try em sometime, the fire rate makes the game more intense.

 

Offline Hippo

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Why building a new Collosus right away would be practical
Quote
Originally posted by Carl
one death star could superlaser all 100 sathani.

i think that's are solution. the GTVA should build a death star.

...

what? :confused:


Or why not contact the borg? Or build a sun crusher? Or ask Piccard to lend us his tractor beams and push them into a star? Or get a cloaking device from the Romulans or Klingons...

If you could bring StarWars or Star Trek into this, the possibilities are endless... IIRC the first Death Star had some 6,000,000 crew... And it was 120 km in diamiter... thats 20 Colossuss'...
So then why even shoot? Just get the thing in the middle of a 1500 meter jump node and hollow out the inside. Fill the inside with tractor beams, bombs, beams, and akhaton sdg's... and make part of the hull into a capship plant... use debris from destroyed vessels...
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Offline diamondgeezer

Why building a new Collosus right away would be practical
My money says this thread will never die




*waits for Shrike to close it in the next post*

 
Why building a new Collosus right away would be practical
Quote
Originally posted by BlueFlames
I daresay the Sathanas is actually more vulnerable to bomber attack, but that's a train of thought for another day.


This is very true. I am in the process of finishing a mission that proves this very point.

 
Why building a new Collosus right away would be practical
I tried a little scenario once, i put about 80 assorted bombers against a sathanas.  About 1/3rd survived, the sathanas was destroyed eventually. Its not really practical for a mission though because of re-supplying that many bombers takes ages, even with multiple support craft.

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Offline Black Wolf

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Why building a new Collosus right away would be practical
I was thinking - If you could disarm the back end of A Sathannas, even partially, you could have something like the Iceni (which has side mounted beams) move around behind it by synchronizing it's waypoint speeds with the Sath's rotation. No BFReds = Toasty Sathannas in relatively short order :D
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Offline diamondgeezer

Why building a new Collosus right away would be practical
As long as another one doesn't jump in as back up... :shaking:


Look at it this way - how easy would the two Sathanas mission have been without the Shivan fighters? If only the Allies had provided decent fighter cover, your bombers could have dispatched the flak and beams with ease in the first one, then pummeled the bloody thing in the second one... easy money :nod:

 

Offline Anaz

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Why building a new Collosus right away would be practical
heh...alls that you really need to take down a sath is a horde of about 20 fenris coming in from behind. I think I tried that once...
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Why building a new Collosus right away would be practical
Me thinks, outfit a couple corvettes with Mjinor beam turrets, there low damage rate but constant rate of fire makes them better then standard big damage but once every 35 second shooting beams loosers...

 

Offline ZylonBane

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Why building a new Collosus right away would be practical
Well that depends. Fixed Mjolnir beams do ~90,000 dmg/min, but Mjolnir#home beams only do ~48,000 dmg/min. I guess the simplified fixed-beam mechanism lets them pump more power.

(stats thanks to the Beam FAQ, natch)
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Offline mikhael

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Why building a new Collosus right away would be practical
You can't go wrong with Mjolnirs. :)
[I am not really here. This post is entirely a figment of your imagination.]

 
Why building a new Collosus right away would be practical
NOW U KNOW IF WE WERE THE SECURITY COUNCIL OR CONGRESS FOR THE GTVA WE'D GO CRAZY! hell THE NTF WOULDA WON LOL......... and shh we got a spy, he's a Shivan and he's an admin heheh:thepimp:in this thread...