Author Topic: Theories, Post 'Em In Here!  (Read 10518 times)

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Offline Ace

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The only problem Lightspeed with that theory is that in an obscure VBB post a person at Volition (Pletcher I believe, I could be wrong) stated in a thread speculating what a Shivan was like within their suit, that it wasn't so much a suit, but a real Shivan.

In that thread, the energy weapon being used as support for their being energy based as used, as well as the Shivans exploding in Hallfight.

It turns out, that the explosion is from a grenade fired by the GTA marines, and the weapon is just that, a weapon.

I'm sure somewhere out there is probably a hard copy of the post I'm referring to.

Plus since the Shivans are symptoms of a larger problem, what is the problem?

The biggest clues: FreeSpace is another word used for Subspace, Shivans seem to have a nasty habit of blowing everything up that actively uses subspace. We don't know why they haven't blown up the Knossos portals, for all we know the Shivans might have destroyed most of them. Of course the fact that Bosch was able to communicate is another clue. What does this all add up to? We'll never know :)
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Offline Bobboau

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yeah there not robo suits, the shivans arn't majical multi-dimentional superbeangs who's very matter we can't comprehend,
if that were true thay would simply atack us at our weakest, and point between about 100 years ago and 5 billion years ago, as you said, there multi-dimentional, therefore they can atack us at any point in any time, they can move into the past like we could walk across the room, wich they havn't done.

they are simply VERY old beings, I think they evolved in space, in ether some astroid feild or debris filled nebula, but they are so unfathomably anchent that they might have been humonoid ( :ha: ) at one point, we know that they have been cleaning space of anything they felt like with god like power for at least 8,000 years (and that they were at least a formitable force for a long time before), that alone is enough for them to have the power to bend stars to will, but there is every indication.(includeing what V had said) that they are MUCH older than that.
they are simply the 'super death aliens', anything you put up aganst them they will crush without effort.

what I wanted in FS3 is some sort of  temporary victory, wich in terms of humanity would be a total victory, but the shivans would see simply as a temporary loss (we kick them out of our galixy, but they can afford to send planet sized super killertrons in normal space takeing several million years to reach us) eventualy they'd win.
I wanted it to be shown that they simply havn't even seen us yet, and we do something that not only get there atention but rightly pisses them off something feirce, then we get bomber sized shivan ships ripping destroyers in half in seconds followed by ships the size of small moons with power levels in scale or greater, things that the only thing you can do effectivly is run from.
hell it would be nice if the Shivans just out right wiped man kind out of exsistance and you just had to sit there and watch, maybe try your best to slow them down
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Offline Hippo

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Quote
Originally posted by jdjtcagle


Also how do freespace ships turn?
I have accepted the fact, why the ships just stop when no power is directed to the engines.



I've .rar'ed and uploaded an AVI showing exactly how they stop... :D

www.sectorgame.com/ahtw/other/FS_Stopping.rar (1.4 MB)


...

give it 7 minutes from my post to finish uploading...
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Offline Lightspeed

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Quote
The only problem Lightspeed with that theory is that in an obscure VBB post a person at Volition (Pletcher I believe, I could be wrong) stated in a thread speculating what a Shivan was like within their suit, that it wasn't so much a suit, but a real Shivan.

In that thread, the energy weapon being used as support for their being energy based as used, as well as the Shivans exploding in Hallfight.

It turns out, that the explosion is from a grenade fired by the GTA marines, and the weapon is just that, a weapon.

I'm sure somewhere out there is probably a hard copy of the post I'm referring to.

Plus since the Shivans are symptoms of a larger problem, what is the problem?

The biggest clues: FreeSpace is another word used for Subspace, Shivans seem to have a nasty habit of blowing everything up that actively uses subspace. We don't know why they haven't blown up the Knossos portals, for all we know the Shivans might have destroyed most of them. Of course the fact that Bosch was able to communicate is another clue. What does this all add up to? We'll never know
 


Yeah it's not just a suit. It's something like a cyborg. A modified body to be able to get to us in our dimensions. To exist outside subspace.

The explosion... I haven't referred to it in the slightest.

About the weapon. How STUPID would that be? I mean, look: The shivans use their plasma claws (those ARE weapons) to kill every single terran. And then the almighty mega shivan uses a plasma cannon which is prolly strong enough to blast a ship to pieces. What for? Why not use the claw? Showing off isn't really an option since nobody from the GTA/PVN will ever have seen it. IMHO most of Volition didn't know what each other thought, have a look at the FS1 tables... I think the... teamwork... could've been better :)

The larger problem. The multidimensional collapse of the world. They're only a part of that problem because they want to stop it, though they're obviously a problem for the GTVA.

I agree we can never know, but there's very simple & good theories that can be made up, and all clues in that last paragraph of yours fit my theory precisely :)

----

Quote
yeah there not robo suits, the shivans arn't majical multi-dimentional superbeangs who's very matter we can't comprehend,
if that were true thay would simply atack us at our weakest, and point between about 100 years ago and 5 billion years ago, as you said, there multi-dimentional, therefore they can atack us at any point in any time, they can move into the past like we could walk across the room, wich they havn't done.


You didn't read my posts, did you? ;)

The shivans do NOT ATTACK ANYONE at a weak point. about 5 billion years ago I doubt any terran used subspace. I doubt 100 years ago they did. In FS, they did. The Shivans get attracted by subspace disturbances. This (of course) also applies to the time axis. Them not having to bother with time, though is the explanation for the Freespace facts: They wiped out the ancients thousands of years ago, they killed other races " Stretching back to Infinity" (like Bosch says) -- Time is no matter for the shivans. They do not *know* time as we do.
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Offline TrashMan

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Quote
Originally posted by Odyssey
[color=cc9900]Why not? Just because in our experience it isn't, doesn't mean it can't be. I might as well say:
ORGANIC BEINGS CANNOT BE ALIVE!!!!!111 period[/color]



No..you cannot say that since we ARE alive...or do you consider yourself to be undead?
And I base my conclusion on pure logic and pysical facts.
Energy beeings = rubbish!
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Offline Odyssey

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[color=cc9900]You wouldn't say that if you were an energy being.[/color]

 

Offline karajorma

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Quote
Originally posted by TrashMan
No..you cannot say that since we ARE alive...or do you consider yourself to be undead?


Somedays I really think that only the British get sarcasm. :D
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Offline jdjtcagle

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Quote
Originally posted by Hippo



I've .rar'ed and uploaded an AVI showing exactly how they stop... :D

www.sectorgame.com/ahtw/other/FS_Stopping.rar (1.4 MB)


...

give it 7 minutes from my post to finish uploading...


Do you have it in exe format.:D
Or self-extracting rar
« Last Edit: December 29, 2003, 01:48:59 pm by 1472 »
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Offline Lightspeed

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Quote
Originally posted by TrashMan



No..you cannot say that since we ARE alive...or do you consider yourself to be undead?
And I base my conclusion on pure logic and pysical facts.
Energy beeings = rubbish!


explain, with pure logic and physical facts: How does Freespace work?

*imagines Freespace in your eyes*

engines = rubbish
vasudans = rubbish
shivans = rubbish
ships controls = rubbish
sound = rubbish
weapon effects = rubbish
storyline = rubbish

*starts to wonder why you're playing science fiction games*

*wonders why you registered on a FS-related board*

:p :nod:
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Theories, Post 'Em In Here!
I have a very different theory of the FS epos.

Long ago, the Universe was created by Us, the Gods. We created the Universe for the purpose of it creating Life. The Life which would grow in the Universe would evolve into Sentience. This Sentience was then able to ascend to a higher level - Our level, to stay by Our side ever wondering at the beauty of Creation.

Pretty religious, I know... now comes the fun part!

The Universe was given its own course of evolution, to create in it a sense of Near-Chaos, the ideal environment for Life. The randomness of its creation was left to the Universe itself. Everything went according to plan, except for a certain sector in the Brahma-mattercluster.

A mattercluster is what we now see as the Universe: a huge collection of matter that generated from a big bang. This mattercluster does have boundaries, and isn't the only one of its type. Many more matterclusters exist, pure nothingness between them.

Back to the story. The Brahma-cluster developed its galaxies at an unnaturel rate. While other clusters were still cooling off, Brahma was evolving much faster. This phenomena was not impossible, but the chances of it were practically nihil. The randomness that balances the evolution elsewhere was replaced by a terrifying   perfection.

This perfect evolution led to the emergence of the Narvanii, a great, sophisticated race which developed the technology for Artificial Sentience. They created a project called 'Shiva', to end a war between three other species not far from their fragile civilization. They designed Shiva as a sort of supercomputer, destined to end all wars.

There you have it - I see the Shivans as a race of artificially intelligent machines which has a perfect understanding of the Universe. Every possibility was calculated. The Shivans were impossible to defeat, as they were perfect. It would take something impossible to take them down!

The Shivans were designed to end all wars. Unfortunately, the mere usage of subspace was designated as an act of war by the Shivans, so the Shivans spread out and killed everything everywhere. The Shivan Empire became so vast, and its grip on the Universe so unbreakable, that We, the Gods, had no alternative than the Dissolution of the Universe.

As we created the Universe, now we began with the undoing of it. Entire clusters were reduced to nothingness, and the Shivans along with them. This dissolution was coming to Andarta, the home-cluster of the Terrans and Vasudans - and it's the bigger problem the Shivans are the symptom of. In Capella the Shivan J-fleet created an inter-cluster jumpnode to escape the Dissolution. The GTVA has to do the same... or they will be de-rezzed!

I'm still working on the story, and I've got a detailed (and far better IMO) version of the story above. I'm putting it all in respect with the events of FreeSpace, the T-V War, the Hades Rebellion, Aken Bosch, and the destruction of Capella.

Tell me what you think!

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Offline Lightspeed

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Well, it's a good story but seriously. It does not match or fit the Freespace Universe in the slightest.

-edit: Here:

Quote
Long ago, the Universe was created by Us, the Gods. We created the Universe for the purpose of it creating Life. The Life which would grow in the Universe would evolve into Sentience. This Sentience was then able to ascend to a higher level - Our level, to stay by Our side ever wondering at the beauty of Creation.


those are.... very human gods. And where do they come from? What are they? WHY?

 
Quote
Pretty religious, I know... now comes the fun part!

The Universe was given its own course of evolution, to create in it a sense of Near-Chaos, the ideal environment for Life. The randomness of its creation was left to the Universe itself. Everything went according to plan, except for a certain sector in the Brahma-mattercluster.

A mattercluster is what we now see as the Universe: a huge collection of matter that generated from a big bang. This mattercluster does have boundaries, and isn't the only one of its type. Many more matterclusters exist, pure nothingness between them.

Back to the story. The Brahma-cluster developed its galaxies at an unnaturel rate. While other clusters were still cooling off, Brahma was evolving much faster. This phenomena was not impossible, but the chances of it were practically nihil. The randomness that balances the evolution elsewhere was replaced by a terrifying perfection.


not one single link to the Freespace Universe up to here.

Quote
This perfect evolution led to the emergence of the Narvanii, a great, sophisticated race which developed the technology for Artificial Sentience. They created a project called 'Shiva', to end a war between three other species not far from their fragile civilization. They designed Shiva as a sort of supercomputer, destined to end all wars.

There you have it - I see the Shivans as a race of artificially intelligent machines which has a perfect understanding of the Universe. Every possibility was calculated. The Shivans were impossible to defeat, as they were perfect. It would take something impossible to take them down!


The shivans as peacemakers? No.
Some questions:
1) Why do the shivans lead a war against the terrans and vasudans when they should make peace?
2) Shivans are no machines. They’re at least semi organic
3) after FS1 there is no war to be found, yet the shivans re-emerge attacking everything like berserks.
4) If you’re arguing they end every war (NTF rebellion etc, inner species conflicts) why havent they shown up in the world wars? Why didn’t they appear at the start of the TV-War?

 
Quote
The Shivans were designed to end all wars. Unfortunately, the mere usage of subspace was designated as an act of war by the Shivans, so the Shivans spread out and killed everything everywhere. The Shivan Empire became so vast, and its grip on the Universe so unbreakable, that We, the Gods, had no alternative than the Dissolution of the Universe.


No makey sense. The idea of a GOD creating something with a bug like that seems not to fit. A GOD is capable of everything. Also, a god’d use less... violent ... ways to solve the conflicts if his purpose is freedom.

Quote
As we created the Universe, now we began with the undoing of it. Entire clusters were reduced to nothingness, and the Shivans along with them. This dissolution was coming to Andarta, the home-cluster of the Terrans and Vasudans - and it's the bigger problem the Shivans are the symptom of. In Capella the Shivan J-fleet created an inter-cluster jumpnode to escape the Dissolution. The GTVA has to do the same... or they will be de-rezzed!


Why don’t they contact us then? Why don’t they ally with the GTVA? Why SHOULD they escape? Creating interjumpnodes by blowing up stars? Good peacekeepers you got there.
Also, the whole thing does not have any reference from the Freespace series.

 
Quote
I'm still working on the story, and I've got a detailed (and far better IMO) version of the story above. I'm putting it all in respect with the events of FreeSpace, the T-V War, the Hades Rebellion, Aken Bosch, and the destruction of Capella.


If you succeed to match all that up with your theory I can only say you’re very talented. Since it does not fit in the slightest. However, it’s a cool story idea and i’m sure you could get a pretty good universe outta it. Simply don’t call it Freespace. It has NOTHING to do with the Freespace universe as it is portrayed in the games.

Re-read your theory. Read mine. Decide which fits the facts better :)

Still, I like your idea. Change the names around and create different events to show it, and you’ll have a pretty good universe to start a new campaign ;)
« Last Edit: December 29, 2003, 05:20:04 pm by 1317 »
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Offline TrashMan

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Quote
Originally posted by Lightspeed


explain, with pure logic and physical facts: How does Freespace work?

*imagines Freespace in your eyes*

engines = rubbish
vasudans = rubbish
shivans = rubbish
ships controls = rubbish
sound = rubbish
weapon effects = rubbish
storyline = rubbish

*starts to wonder why you're playing science fiction games*

*wonders why you registered on a FS-related board*

:p :nod:


Coause I like Freespace.
And there are levels of impossibility.
Engines, Vasudans, ect..all those are hardly improbable, but not impossible.
Energy beeings are impossible.

I reckon most people think energy beeings can exist becoause human brain generates brainvawes, so the equation brainwaves=em waves= energy = tought = life migh works. But em waves are NOT toughts.. em waves traveling trough the brain (organic matter), interacting with it and producing different electrochemical effects - that is tought. It doesn't work without the organic/chemical part....no can do...

Others might think - the soul..well that's a form of energy.so why not.
well...no! we don't know what a soul exactly is, and well.. when you die and you soul leaves you're body...you're dead. A soul isn't alive...so how can we talk about a LIFE form?
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Offline Lightspeed

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Quote
Originally posted by TrashMan

Coause I like Freespace.
And there are levels of impossibility.
Engines, Vasudans, ect..all those are hardly improbable, but not impossible.
Energy beeings are impossible.

I reckon most people think energy beeings can exist becoause human brain generates brainvawes, so the equation brainwaves=em waves= energy = tought = life migh works. But em waves are NOT toughts.. em waves traveling trough the brain (organic matter), interacting with it and producing different electrochemical effects - that is tought. It doesn't work without the organic/chemical part....no can do...

Others might think - the soul..well that's a form of energy.so why not.
well...no! we don't know what a soul exactly is, and well.. when you die and you soul leaves you're body...you're dead. A soul isn't alive...so how can we talk about a LIFE form?


lol!

Vasudans are impossible, for various reasons.

Have a look at the engines. Ships stop when you have no pwer directed to them, you can brake without having front thrusters, you can turn with only rear afterburners etc, etc.

You can hear sounds where you shouldnt.

etc.

Energy beings are possible. I dont have time right now but i'll explain later.
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Offline Stryke 9

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SHIVANS=ANTARANS!!!1!!!11oneoneoneone


Honestly, hearing the lot of you in these heated discussions about what's "real" in Freespace is like hearing a bunch of guys debate whether a sentence is proper grammar in Klingon or someone just made it up. It's fiction, it's not even hard sci-fi, saying something is "impossible" when the original creators plainly weren't interested physics and so on is to miss the point. Getting all hot and bothered about it is tantamount to wearing a little sign on your forehead saying "I will never ever get laid" for everyone around to read. Get some perspective, sheez...

Personally, I prefer fiction that takes reality into full account, but that isn't really a battle you can pick now, it got decided before you even bought the bloody game and learned about it. If you wanna ***** at each others' theories, do it in the context of their own internal logic, don't try to bring in some crap that doesn't apply. Ten to one there are holes even in what little is there.

Anyway. I like my theory best. Always did.

 

Offline Genryu

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I've just finished watching a space-op anime called Uchuu no Stellvia, and, right now, I've got a very simple idea on what happened at Capella. What if the Shivan were simply fed up with those two races resisting them ? We can be nearly sure that the armada shown during the Second Great War wasn't even a fraction of their true number. So, sacrifying a few of their numbers, they decide to create a supernova, and let the after effects of the supernova deal with them. I don't remember the distance between Capella and the other systems (and I'm too lazy to search for it :p ) , but a supernova can be felt quite a few light years away...
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Offline Sandwich

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The Shivans ate my homework.


This thread makes my head hurt
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"...The quintessential quality of our age is that of dreams coming true. Just think of it. For centuries we have dreamt of flying; recently we made that come true: we have always hankered for speed; now we have speeds greater than we can stand: we wanted to speak to far parts of the Earth; we can: we wanted to explore the sea bottom; we have: and so  on, and so on: and, too, we wanted the power to smash our enemies utterly; we have it. If we had truly wanted peace, we should have had that as well. But true peace has never been one of the genuine dreams - we have got little further than preaching against war in order to appease our consciences. The truly wishful dreams, the many-minded dreams are now irresistible - they become facts." - 'The Outward Urge' by John Wyndham

"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill

 

Offline Gloriano

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Shivans are Humans from Future 10.000.000years:p :ha: ;)
« Last Edit: December 30, 2003, 08:06:42 am by 153 »
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Offline Ghostavo

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Quote
Originally posted by Lightspeed
The shivans as peacemakers? No.
Some questions:
1) Why do the shivans lead a war against the terrans and vasudans when they should make peace?
2) Shivans are no machines. They’re at least semi organic
3) after FS1 there is no war to be found, yet the shivans re-emerge attacking everything like berserks.
4) If you’re arguing they end every war (NTF rebellion etc, inner species conflicts) why havent they shown up in the world wars? Why didn’t they appear at the start of the TV-War?


Although I don't share his almost religious views of freespace, I can clear out some points of his view for you....

1 - He didn't use the word peacekeepers anywhere in his post, so reread it. I'll explain a bit ahead what he meant.

2 - Here's where you can and can't be right at the same time, you could in theory build organic (or semi-organic) computers.

3 - If you read his post with atention you'd find this.
Quote
Unfortunately, the mere usage of subspace was designated as an act of war by the Shivans

So this is where I explain his views of "machines to stop all wars".
To stop all wars, one doesn't need to be a friendly diplomat with good relation with other countries, imagine you could construct the perfect shield, no weapon could penetrate it, etc... If everyone used those things that could be considered a "device that stoped (or ended) all wars". The same could (in theory) be accomplished with a defensive weapon.
So according to him the shivans were some sort of military bots designed to attack everything that was hostile to them (according to what was designated as an act of war to them, like Shiva-jin Buu said). Let's look at a modern example... the US are said to be the police of the globe, and still they blow from time to time a country or 2 (slightly exagerated notion I know :D).

4 - They most probably didn't trace it fast enough on the last and the world wars they most likely didn't detect anything, because unlike in YOUR theory they can't go back in time in his!!

... I'll post my theory on FreeSpace later :thepimp: :mad2: :devil:

P.S.
Could someone show me HOW can an energy life form exist?
« Last Edit: December 30, 2003, 07:49:44 am by 1606 »
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Offline Lightspeed

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Quote
Originally posted by Ghostavo
[...]

Could someone show me HOW can an energy life form exist?


You didnt put much attention to my post either :)
My main complaint was, why would gods (lets assume theyre almighty) create sumething with such an obvious flaw, with such a big bug, like the shivans have in his theory? They created life, and the shivans, instead of preventing war, eliminate all life forms simply because they use subspace?


You can do everything with energy. Create matter, heat stuff, produce light, produce magnetic fields, have gravity, split matter, drain energy...

It is possible :)
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Offline Ghostavo

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No...

Read his post more carefully and you will see.

He says God created the universe, nothing more... then he says....

Quote
The Universe was given its own course of evolution


Then a race, not god, created the shivans.

Quote
This perfect evolution led to the emergence of the Narvanii, a great, sophisticated race which developed the technology for Artificial Sentience. They created a project called 'Shiva', to end a war between three other species not far from their fragile civilization. They designed Shiva as a sort of supercomputer, destined to end all wars.


And gods may be almighty but they sometimes can't be omnicient (how do you spell it?). As an example, see the greek-roman gods.

As for the shivans eliminating all life remember... to the shivans the use of subspace is as threatning as the use of a gun. And if every race stopped using weapons and subspace, it could stop the slaughter...

Of course this is his theory. I don't know every single detail. :rolleyes:
Shiva-jin Buu come defend your theory! :mad:

Moving on to the second point (energy beings)
How can they mantain integrity? And doesn't energy need a fisical form (an object) to fuction? (light is energy by the way... methinks.... ;) )

P.S.
Isn't gravity a consequence of having mass. Isn't it considered a "force" rather than energy? Or is it the same thing?
« Last Edit: December 30, 2003, 11:09:02 am by 1606 »
"Closing the Box" - a campaign in the making :nervous:

Shrike is a dirty dirty admin, he's the destroyer of souls... oh god, let it be glue...