Author Topic: Theories, Post 'Em In Here!  (Read 10512 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline TrashMan

  • T-tower Avenger. srsly.
  • 213
  • God-Emperor of your kind!
    • Minecraft
    • FLAMES OF WAR
Theories, Post 'Em In Here!
Quote
Originally posted by Lightspeed


lol!

Vasudans are impossible, for various reasons.

Have a look at the engines. Ships stop when you have no pwer directed to them, you can brake without having front thrusters, you can turn with only rear afterburners etc, etc.

You can hear sounds where you shouldnt.

etc.

Energy beings are possible. I dont have time right now but i'll explain later.


Actually, the ships have thrusters in all directions, at least on the concept pics. By using such thrusthers you can simulate a atmospheric fighter. Alltough I doubt that both Vasudans and Shivans would use the same concept.

Could it be tha the sounds ae generated by the pilot's helm? Directional sounds have proven to improve the pilots reflexes by quite a bit.

Energy beeing are not possible. There is NO WAY energy can be alive, or for it to have toughts.
You can do lot's with energy, but not everything.

And If energy is alive, then I just spent 40 Watts of life forms;7
Nobody dies as a virgin - the life ****s us all!

You're a wrongularity from which no right can escape!

 

Offline Lightspeed

  • Light Years Ahead
  • 212
Theories, Post 'Em In Here!
life is unexplanable. Yet it has symptoms. And those symptoms can also be created with energy alone :)
Modern man is the missing link between ape and human being.

 

Offline Solatar

  • 211
Theories, Post 'Em In Here!
Right.

 

Offline TrashMan

  • T-tower Avenger. srsly.
  • 213
  • God-Emperor of your kind!
    • Minecraft
    • FLAMES OF WAR
Theories, Post 'Em In Here!
Quote
Originally posted by Lightspeed
life is unexplanable. Yet it has symptoms. And those symptoms can also be created with energy alone :)


Oh boy...what rubbish....:lol:
As Spock would say : "Highly unlogical!"
But just for the fun of it -
Oh? What simptoms?

And even if it was possible for energy to be alive,  it can't be inteligent. And if Shivans are energy, how can they build fighters?
Nobody dies as a virgin - the life ****s us all!

You're a wrongularity from which no right can escape!

 

Offline Odyssey

  • Stormrider
  • 28
Theories, Post 'Em In Here!
[color=cc9900]I believe Spock would say something more along the lines of "Highly illogical".

But anyway, I don't think he'd say it. We don't have any proof that energy beings exist, and we don't have any that they don't since we don't know everything in the universe on a sub-atomic scale. Therefore, it's not illogical to theorise that it's possible for energy beings to exist. It is however illogical to flat-out say "energy beings do not exist", since you have no base for your comments other than experience of an incredibly limited area of the Universe.[/color]

 

Offline Ghostavo

  • 210
  • Let it be glue!
    • Skype
    • Steam
    • Twitter
Theories, Post 'Em In Here!
1 - How would energy beings mantain such a level of integrity?

2 - How would they perform the things you say they could without a "body" to work on?

3 - How would they multiply?

4 - How would they get the energy (in their case, the "bio-matter" in the sense they are made by energy) to perform such tasks?

etc... etc... etc...

Energy is never, never that organized, so it couldn't be alive... energy is being constantly created and destroyed, so any "living being" you might create made out of energy would be destroyed very quickly without ever leaving a trace of their existence behind (in simpler words, no descendant).

Where was I? Who yes... What exactly do you mean by energy?
What kind of energy?

P.S.
Life is explainable... getting a definition for it is hard... explaining it is not.

Here's a few links to satisfy your thirst of knowledge while I go kick some shivan ass all over again. :devil: :mad2:

Something I found  and another thing I found
"Closing the Box" - a campaign in the making :nervous:

Shrike is a dirty dirty admin, he's the destroyer of souls... oh god, let it be glue...

 

Offline Odyssey

  • Stormrider
  • 28
Theories, Post 'Em In Here!
[color=cc9900]I never said I believed or didn't believe in energy beings, just that it's terminally dumb just to sit and say "They do not exist".
How energy beings would work if they did exist is irrelevant. Some kind of incredibly simplified photosynthesis would be fun though. Or hyper-intelligent shades of the colour blue. It's all good.[/color]

 

Offline Lightspeed

  • Light Years Ahead
  • 212
Theories, Post 'Em In Here!
Quote
Originally posted by Ghostavo
1 - How would energy beings mantain such a level of integrity?

2 - How would they perform the things you say they could without a "body" to work on?

3 - How would they multiply?

4 - How would they get the energy (in their case, the "bio-matter" in the sense they are made by energy) to perform such tasks?

etc... etc... etc...

Energy is never, never that organized, so it couldn't be alive... energy is being constantly created and destroyed, so any "living being" you might create made out of energy would be destroyed very quickly without ever leaving a trace of their existence behind (in simpler words, no descendant).

Where was I? Who yes... What exactly do you mean by energy?
What kind of energy?

P.S.
Life is explainable... getting a definition for it is hard... explaining it is not.

Here's a few links to satisfy your thirst of knowledge while I go kick some shivan ass all over again. :devil: :mad2:

Something I found  and another thing I found


1) There's no need for integrity. You seem to think about 'living energy men that walk around'. It would probably more be some kind of n-dimensional cloud of energy. The needed 'integrity' can be reached by electromagnetic fields, gravity, light or whatever you prefer.

2) Shivans are not 3-dimensional, they can channel their energies. They can TRANSFORM them.

Matter is a form of energy (it can be dissolved to energy again)
Anti-Matter is a form of energy (it can be dissolved to energy again)
Light is a form of energy (it can be dissolved to energy again)
Temperature is a form of energy (it can be dissolved to energy again)
Gravity is a form of energy (it can be dissolved to energy again)
Force is a form of energy (it can be dissolved to energy again)
Sounds are a form of energy (they can be dissolved to energy again)
chemical compounds contain a form of energy (they can be split to set free energy again)

You see, once you can control energy you can do lots of things with it. Like creating matter, like heating things, like moving things, like building things.

3) By 'eating'. It's like an energy pump. Energy is used up, and energy is gained (sucked out of the ambience). If no energy is used up for a long time, the energy will reach a critical amount, the 'integrity' will fail, and the energy will split up, allowing it to re-form into 2 or more different clouds.

4) which tasks? As energy they have no chance in our 3-dimensional room to do anything. Theyre not even an energy form as we know it. Theyre neither heat, temperature, light, magnetic fields, sonic, or anything else we know of. They're n-dimensional energies. For anything they need to do with the 3rd dimension they will create those who we call shivans. Simplified bodies especially designed for zero-g, controlled by a shivan, in contact with the Vortex at all times.

Could be any kind of energy, we do not know. We know but a VERY small fraction of energy forms that exist. It's probably too complex for a terran to understand anyway. We do not even understand our own life, so how could we possibly understand such really alien life forms?

As for your sites:

Though focussed on what we know as life there's a lot of similarities you see

(2). Living things have the ability to take energy from their environment and change it from one form to another. This energy is usually used to facilitate their growth and reproduction. We call the process that allows for this facilitation metabolism.

- hmmm... look at 2.

(4). Living creatures respond to stimuli. Cues in their environment cause them to react through behavior, metabolism, and physiological change.

- shivans are attracted by subspace use. Hmm...

(5). Living things reproduce themselves by making copies of themselves. Reproduction can either be sexual or asexual. Sexual reproduction involves the fusing of haploid genetic material from two individuals. This process creates populations with much greater genetic diversity.

- granted, theres no genetic material but look at 3.

(6). Organisms tend to grow and develop. Growth involves the conversion of consumed materials into biomass, new individuals, and waste.

- energy forms being transformed into those which shivans consist of.


Simply the fact that we have not yet discovered any energetic beings, or that we could explain how on earth they should work, does not mean there arent any. I'm pretty sure we HAVE already met some, or they are right here. We do not know, though. With our view limited to three dimensions, and our other human restrictions (we have too much filters in our perception) we will probably never notice or be able to explain anything like energetic beings.

Quote

But anyway, I don't think he'd say it. We don't have any proof that energy beings exist, and we don't have any that they don't since we don't know everything in the universe on a sub-atomic scale. Therefore, it's not illogical to theorise that it's possible for energy beings to exist. It is however illogical to flat-out say "energy beings do not exist", since you have no base for your comments other than experience of an incredibly limited area of the Universe.


We do not know about our universe yet. We do not know about higher dimensions. We do not know anything certain about gravity and time. We do not know what exactly light or energy is. All we have is a few theories, some of them contradicting each other, but all of them forming together to what we call 'science'. Seriously, whoever thinks humans are like gods and know anything for certain need to be kicked. It's more than illogical to say energy beings do not exist.
Modern man is the missing link between ape and human being.

 
Theories, Post 'Em In Here!
Allrighty then, I've come to defend my theory!!! (thanks for the support, Ghostavo ;))

I use the theme perfection as something as arcane as the Gods themselves. They had the Universe develope with the randomization, and yet the perfect enviroments and events existed to lead the Narvanii into creating the Shivans.

The main Shivan computer, Shiva, is perfect, or all-knowing. They don't need war-experience, they already know everything. And they use that all-knowingness to carry out their only objective: to end all wars. Unfortunately, the Shivans realize that War is part of life, and therefore end all life.

The reason why the Gods made the 'flaw' that led to the Shivans, is that they, too, are NOT perfect, therefore they are powerless against the Shivans. Realizing this, they un-do the entire Universe while they're at it.

The only thing that could stop the Shivans is something impossible, since every possible course of events is calculated by the Shivans. I still haven't decided what that impossibility is, but I like the idea of the defeat of the Lucifer being impossible by Shivan standards.

Here are some brainstorms of mine, trying to answer the fundamental FS questions.

How did the Narvanii create the Shivans?

The project Shiva was not life at all. It was an artificial sentience and therefore had no feelings or flaws. Shiva was a computer program that was programmed to end all wars in the Universe. The Narvanii had programmed it this way, because they sought to relieve the Universe from the terror of warfare. However, they, too, were mercilessly slaughtered by Shiva, even though they were her creators. After all, Shiva was programmed to end all wars, and the Shivans interpreted the Narvanii’s attempt at deactivating Shiva as an act of war. They didn’t feel any remorse, not even for their creators.
They created it by having the technology to create artificial intelligence, though this project actually had the complexity of natural life - which created Shiva’s perfection.

What was the meaning of the whole part with Bosch? Why did he disappear with a Shivan transport, while the rest of his crew was slaughtered by the Shivans? Why would the Shivans want to take Bosch away?

The prospect of re-programming came to mind, as the Shivans are in essence an armada of machines driven by a computer program. However, this feels too anti-climactic as yet, so a deeper explanation is required; perhaps of Shiva evolving from an artificial sentience into a real sentience. Now that sounds better, doesn’t it?
The Shivans were never interested in life, or anything for that matter. They only carried out Shiva’s original mission: to end all wars in the Universe. Because of this, the Shivans didn’t capture Bosch because they were interested in him, the Terran Race, the first ETAK ever, or anything.
Perhaps Bosch had learned how to command the Shivans through ETAK, altering their programming. For all we know, Bosch could have (accidentally?) ordered the destruction of Capella!
Bosch was probably taken away because he knew that the GTVA was hot on his trail, trying to capture him, and throw him before the court martial. I think he simply asked the Shivans to take him away, so he could die in freedom.

What is the story behind the remaining Archeii portals? Why did the Shivans preserve those? Does that technology surpass even that of the Shivans?

The Shivans are known to occupy all of space. We also know that every trace of each victim civilization is erased from history. However, the Archeii have stored records of their own Great War in various sites on their planets. These weren’t destroyed by the Shivans, and neither were the portals; they were even used often. Perhaps the Shivans spared them because they were different in some way.

No, perhaps the Shivans kept life under a sentient level. When the life they combated was extinguished, the Shivans wouldn’t destroy every trace of them.
The Archeii portals are likely inter-galactic jumpnodes, and the Shivans kept using them for their own. It does feel a bit un-Shivan that they would adapt to technology. They were already perfect, right?

Why did the Shivans destroy the Capella star? Where does the new Jump Node lead to?

The fact that the Shivans destroyed Capella raises many questions. Perhaps the Shivans knew that the Dissolution was coming onto Via Lacta, Andarta, so it could have been an evacuation. It was certainly not an act of war against the GTVA, as they were ignored by the J-fleet.
The supernova leaves questions too. Perhaps the Shivans used a supernova not to create a portal, but to cut us off from their space. However, it seems highly unlikely that this could be a plausible solution. The best answer is that the Shivans indeed tried to evacuate their system. The ‘why’ is another story, as the Shivans are supposed to guard each galaxy with equally sized fleets; which makes it less plausible for the Shivans if they would evacuate anything at all.
The jumpnode most certainly leads to another galaxy, or even another cluster. No contest here, as the Shivans probably wouldn’t have used such awesome power on a regular node.

What bigger problem is it that the Shivans are the symptom of?

Perhaps it is the Great Dissolution of the Universe by Them. However, the Shivans are more of a cause than a symptom in respect to the Dissolution. On another hand, the Terrans don’t know about that, so it could be viewed as a symptom. In any case, the Dissolution is definitely a bigger problem than the Shivans, since the Shivans are most likely evacuating Andarta, we have to find a way to follow them, or we will be reduced to Nothingness.
Any other bigger problem than the Great Destroyers, holding the Universe in an icy lockdown, is hard to think up, to say the least…

Why did the Shivans disappear, instead of actually being defeated after the Great War? What occupation do they have in a single galaxy? Why did they return to GTVA space in the Second Great War?

The Shivan Force is precisely what they need. They are perfect, and know everything. They created the force they needed for each war.
The Shivans first wave of vessels was a scouting party, which suggests the Shivans have a far greater fleet. However, those scouting parties are singularly capable of obliterating advanced civilizations. So perhaps Shiva had, in all her perfection, calculated the chance of a situation like the Great War, and created the secondary fleet. The J-fleet’s function is clearly to create inter-cluster jumpnodes.
The Shivan scouting party of the Great War disappeared, instead of actually being defeated. This must have something to do with the Shivan Ascending process. It needed an impossibility. Was it impossible to defeat the Lucifer? YEAH.

The Shivans use a fixed number of juggernauts to power up an inter-cluster jumpnode. Perhaps the destroyed juggernaut had to be compensated by the four juggernauts that remained behind in Capella during the supernova.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2003, 11:51:37 am by 1167 »
The shortcut to impossibility does exist, we just have to find it! I will...

 

Offline Ghostavo

  • 210
  • Let it be glue!
    • Skype
    • Steam
    • Twitter
Theories, Post 'Em In Here!
1 - Integrity is needed or else your energy beings will dissipate, be used by someone (that would be a laugh) or would become to disperse to act strongly enough to do what it wants to do.

Show me how can any of those things be done with only energy, no machine etc...

2 - I wasn't talking about shivans, or else I wouldn't say
Quote
How would they perform the things you say they could without a "body" to work on?

I was talking about energy beings (composed only by energy)

Saying "Something is a form of energy (it can be dissolved to energy again)" is incorrect or at least extremely wierd. How can you say something is energy and then saying it can be dissolved to energy again if it supposedly it was energy in the first place?

Matter is not energy, anti-matter is not energy. Only together can they create energy.

3 - Again, without a device to properly use energy you can't do that, pure energy (if such thing exists) can't do anything alone!!! Read above point (1) about the reproduction problems.

4 - Again I'm not talking about a bloody shivan!!! Shivans are not energy life forms... Either they are machines with biological components or they are cyborgs (same thing? or not?).
Either way they are alive.

How can energy control itself so it creates matter and anti-matter? (and making both unstable enough that they don't react with one another by the way)


Now for the remarks on those sites (purely stuff I picked up on the last minute) :P



That's right.... not talking about bloody shivans!!!! Leave them alone. I was talking about an uniquely energy being (not made out of anything else but energy, and matter isn't energy). And no I don't think of it as a man form made out of energy.

Energy can't think.
Energy can't move things without being applied to something.
Energy can't do anything alone!!

P.S.
By your definition of energy, we are all energy beings, and since you don't believe that (or else you would have mentioned it before) I sugest you revise its definition.

And for the rest of you guys, you are debating this like a philosofical discussion instead of a cientific one... present some facts will you?
« Last Edit: December 31, 2003, 02:33:09 pm by 1606 »
"Closing the Box" - a campaign in the making :nervous:

Shrike is a dirty dirty admin, he's the destroyer of souls... oh god, let it be glue...

 

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
Theories, Post 'Em In Here!
Quote
Originally posted by Ghostavo
Matter is not energy, anti-matter is not energy. Only together can they create energy.


Your assumption that you need matter and antimatter to create energy is incorrect. You can convert one or the other to energy. Study up on the mass defect of atoms and you'll see how partial convertion occurs during nuclear fusion or fission.

Personally I agree that energy creatures are pretty much impossible but since half of the stuff in FS2 is stupidly impossible too I'm really not going to complain about it :D
« Last Edit: December 31, 2003, 02:42:59 pm by 340 »
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 

Offline Odyssey

  • Stormrider
  • 28
Theories, Post 'Em In Here!
Quote
Originally posted by Ghostavo
And for the rest of you guys, you are debating this like a philosofical discussion instead of a cientific one... present some facts will you?

[color=cc9900]You want facts in a theoretical discussion debating the token bad guys in an arcade-esque game?[/color]

 

Offline TrashMan

  • T-tower Avenger. srsly.
  • 213
  • God-Emperor of your kind!
    • Minecraft
    • FLAMES OF WAR
Theories, Post 'Em In Here!
After reading all of this I have come to a shocking conclusion - either the human race is de-evolving (which can be easily seen by the sheer lack of intelligence in some posts) or it was allways dumb, only people notice it more these days.:D

For the Xth time..
Energy CANNOT be alive.
We all know that all living beeings have certain qualitys - those qualities the energy doesn't have! All we know about energy SUGGESTS that it can't be alive.

Energy is constant. It cannot be destroyed. So "energy beeings" couldn't multiply and would be immortal (so to say)..

And futhermore...
BAH.. I give up.. It's like talking to a brick wall
I suppose I won't be able to convince you in the error of your ways, but neither can you convince me, so there's no point in continuing..

And if you really belive that, then I don't wonder anymore where the stupid sects find their belivers. Within people who will belive anything...
Nobody dies as a virgin - the life ****s us all!

You're a wrongularity from which no right can escape!

 

Offline Solatar

  • 211
Theories, Post 'Em In Here!
Matter can't be created either...

 

Offline Ghostavo

  • 210
  • Let it be glue!
    • Skype
    • Steam
    • Twitter
Theories, Post 'Em In Here!
Quote
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Ghostavo
And for the rest of you guys, you are debating this like a philosofical discussion instead of a cientific one... present some facts will you?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


You want facts in a theoretical discussion debating the token bad guys in an arcade-esque game?


For the last time, I wasn't talking about shivans, I was talking about the impossibility that are "energy life forms"

I wasn't talking about anyone's theory when I was trying to debate the current topic. So please don't come talking about with shivans or anything of the sort.
"Closing the Box" - a campaign in the making :nervous:

Shrike is a dirty dirty admin, he's the destroyer of souls... oh god, let it be glue...

 

Offline Odyssey

  • Stormrider
  • 28
Theories, Post 'Em In Here!
[color=cc9900]Ghostavo: Sorry mate, my mistake.
TrashMan: You're almost as bad as Kazan in an argument... We do not know that energy beings exist, but we don't know that they don't, so even though because we've never seen them they're unlikely to exist, it is still possible. There are no definites involved either way, however wrong it sounds (and believe me, it doesn't sound quite right to me either).[/color]

 

Offline Lightspeed

  • Light Years Ahead
  • 212
Theories, Post 'Em In Here!
@ the discussion about energy beings:
well since you dont seem to refer to my theory at all, then, i guess its useless to go on. You dont seem to have even read it :)

I thought we were talking about the same thing, but obviously; we weren't.
Modern man is the missing link between ape and human being.

 

Offline Odyssey

  • Stormrider
  • 28
Theories, Post 'Em In Here!
[color=cc9900]Lightspeed: I have to say, your theories make the most sense out of all the serious ones posted so far. If that's any consolation ^_^[/color]

 

Offline Ghostavo

  • 210
  • Let it be glue!
    • Skype
    • Steam
    • Twitter
Theories, Post 'Em In Here!
Ok... so when some of us meet such a life form we can actually have something important to say about it! :D :lol:

I've read your theory... I don't like the way you considering the shivans some kind of puppets, and I find it wierd that the idea of subspace being trashed (in a way, can't explain better, lack of better english :sigh: ) is being used by so many people without being refered in the game, must be popular I guess.

In my view, shivans are the remainings of an old civilization that did experiments on itself or on another being and now it behaves like the beast did in Homeworld: Cataclysm except without the megalomania, the conqueror will and that beam.

They just.... hang around I guess :D. (just kidding)

The motives however I don't have a clue.

Blowing up Capella shocked me, in the beggining I though the J-fleet around the star was going to open some sort of portal or activate a weapon.

I suspect the shivans were just as shocked as I was... :ha: :devil:
« Last Edit: December 31, 2003, 05:38:09 pm by 1606 »
"Closing the Box" - a campaign in the making :nervous:

Shrike is a dirty dirty admin, he's the destroyer of souls... oh god, let it be glue...

 

Offline Lightspeed

  • Light Years Ahead
  • 212
Theories, Post 'Em In Here!
Quote
Originally posted by Ghostavo
I've read your theory... I don't like the way you considering the shivans some kind of puppets, and I find it wierd that the idea of subspace being trashed (in a way, can't explain better, lack of better english :sigh: ) is being used by so many people without being refered in the game, must be popular I guess.


do I consider the shivans puppets? where?

As for suspace being damaged... I reckon i'm the first one to mention it (although I havent been around quite a long time so i wouldn't know) ~ and it is hinted in the game. :)

Listen to Bosch's monologues (in the english version, some of the translations make no sense at all) and you'll see ;) Also, the ancients monologues from FS1 can be quite helpful.

@oddysey: :)
Modern man is the missing link between ape and human being.