Author Topic: Theories, Post 'Em In Here!  (Read 10515 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Theories, Post 'Em In Here!
Well I'm surprised there isn't a thread dedicated to your theories on why things happened in the FS series- so I've made one! :rolleyes:

I'd like to see your theories on the Shivans, Capella, Bosch, anything!

 

Offline DragonClaw

  • Romeo Kilo India Foxtrot
  • 210
Theories, Post 'Em In Here!
Well I have my own _very_ unique idea, but if I told anyone, I would stamp the letter saying Hidden Terror is dead. Sorry :p

 

Offline Lightspeed

  • Light Years Ahead
  • 212
Theories, Post 'Em In Here!
k, gimme a few hours to write what my theory is :)
Modern man is the missing link between ape and human being.

 
Theories, Post 'Em In Here!
my theory on capella is that the shivans used the energy released from the nova to shunt their fleet into another dimension :nod:

 

Offline Lightspeed

  • Light Years Ahead
  • 212
Theories, Post 'Em In Here!
The Shivans – from a shivan’s point of view :)

A shivan is a half organic, half robotic hybrid, a modified ‘real shivan’ to be able to survive in what we call ‘the universe’. What we really should call a shivan is indeed, an energetic being dwelling in the depths of yet another universe, which we refer to as ‘subspace’. What we can see in subspace is only a very small part though. There’s much more inner spheres, which I will refer to as ‘the subspace Vortex’.  We have the shivans (and maybe various other beings) in the vortex, and we have terrans, vasudans and many other species in our universe.

Of course the processes are very complicated, but you could demonstrate with the this easy example:
Imagine a glass filled half with water, half with oil. There will be a clear barrier, seperating water and oil. The water will remain unharmed, just as the oil will.

Now, to the more complicated and FS-story related parts of it:

As always, the human race had high plans, very high plans indeed, and as the restrictions of the physical laws were reached we had to find yet another way to work around them. And we discovered subspace. A multidimensional place to shorten our distances to a minimum. The Vortex and our universe exist at the same position, yet at different dimensions and this way completely seperated (see the example). Now technological progress made it possible to penetrate the barrier between normal space and subspace, making it possible to travel really fast to about any place you could think of. All that is needed to have a inter system jump point is a disturbance in the barrier (imagine: a point with less surface tension, due to dust or something.). You can penetrate it there, travel through it and re enter our universe at a completely different point in space.

As the subspace ‘matter’ and our matter are contrasts to each other they’re pretty volatile when mixed in the right proportions; high dimensional matter simply doesnt ‘fit’ in our three (four) dimensional space. When some little ships use subspace, there will be no real results. It will be a good way to travel. At the end of the TV-War subspace was heavily used, both by vasudans and terrans. As you will see there was LOTS and LOTS of penetrating the barrier.

Back to our example: Take the glass and a stick. If you penetrate the barrier once it will go back as if nothing happened. Keep pushing and poking at it and you will see that there will be great disturbances, the barrier will blur and you will have a mixed part. By using subspace you HURT the balance between subspace and our universe.

The Shivans, being subspace beings can sense subspace disturbances at long range (there’s practically no distance dimension in subspace so that doesnt really make sense anyhow). They feel when something is goin on. Now you can imagine that when you reach a certain point in subspace activity the barrier will not hold anymore. This would result in a clash of the two universes, leading to the distruction of both subspace and our universe (or, at least big parts of them). You can imagine the Shivans are not pleased when their home is attacked, when their universe is put in danger. At the end of the TV-War Shivans had found the time had come to act. To stop the ongoing damage that was done.  Just like millions of other races, the terrans and vasudans had succeeded in luring the great destroyers. But they are not only the great destroyers but also the great preservers. You see, without them, we probably would not have a universe to live in anymore. The ancients were too keen on subspace, with their portals damaging the barrier even further than ordinary subspace travel would. So the shivans had built organic-robotic hybrids which they could send into our universe, to finally do something about the damage being dealt to the universe. Of course, the shivans (which started attacking the terrans and vasudans at the end of the TV-war) will also use subspace to travel, continuing to damage it. However, they will have to decide: Either let the terrans and vasudans progress to abuse subspace, or damage it too, but with the hope to stop the races killing it. For this reason, the shivans will ONLY attack if there’s really very much travel going on. Only then, the damage they would to themselves would be justified. At the end of the TV-war this was the case, so they sent the shivans we know.

Quite effectively the shivans destroyed Vasuda Prime, the fleets of the terran and vasudan military, and were headed for Sol. The destruction of the Lucifer in the jump to Sol created a subspace cataclysm sealing off the node. This was quite convenient for the shivans, although unplanned. The terrans and vasudans both left crushed, there was no need to keep attacking. The ‘subspace sensors’ were calm enough again. Things settled down. But the Vasudans and Terrans grew strong again. They created the GTVA, they conquered world after world. Bosch was the only one who had made the right conclusions. He KNEW humanity would face death if it continued to harm the universe. (see the reference with ‘shivans are the revenge of an angry cosmos’) His motives were clear: Stop the terrans to use subspace, and ally with the shivans. Make agreements on limited subspace travel and settle down. There was a slight problem, though. There were no shivans. So he thought and thought how to lure the shivans to out universe again. The idea he got was brilliant. By using the ancient’s portals he could easily create a very heavy subspace disturbance big enough to lure the shivans back.... and to communicate with them.

Bosch opened the portal, and the combined disturbance by the heavy GTVA travel and the opened portal was enough to get the shivans to act again. They came from Gamma Draconis, trying to get ahold of the portal, to shut it down once and for all. However, Bosch had different plans with them. Bosch knew humanities last chance was to ally with the shivans, and so he had a plan: With Sol being completely cut off of any subspace jump node, the only thing that had to be done was to kill ALL terrans and vasudans out of Sol, and Humanity could live on and on in Sol, in peace. He created the NTF, which turned out to evolve in it’s own direction (which Bosch was unable to stop, as can be seen in the monologues) – Yet he managed to get to the destroyers. With the universe at the brink of collapse, the shivans had to act immediately.

Back to our example. A large explosion at the barrier can have enough force to split both liquids, destroying part of it, but preventing the barrier to collapse completely.

The shivans launched their Sathanas capships for Capella. The only hope of the universe was in capella. Bosch was able to communicate with the shivans, and they agreed to help him in his plans. Granted, his actions would have to be drastic: help the shivans kill every single terran and vasudan outside Sol, and the Shivans would leave Sol in peace. The terrans there would never be able to exit Sol, not knowing about the ancient’s portals.

Now some of you probably think: Why didn’t Bosch tell the GTVA? It’s pretty simple. Imagine i’d go to the GTVA, and i’d say “Hey you... uhm... stop using Subspace will ya?” – There’s no chance to get the ambitious and power hungry races to actually stop abusing subspace for travelling purposes. No chance but-... to kill them.
With Bosch commissioned (he would probably be given an armada huge enough) to kill the GTVA (he was terran so he knows better about how terrans and vasudans think and act and he’s a universe-native specimen) and the Sathanas fleet making capella go supernova (and then opening subspace channels to have a multidimensional blast, can be seen in the endgame movies) they would restore the barrier just in time to prevent a complete apocalypse. That’s where FS2 ends. The peace achieved will not last long. The shivans, being a subspace-native race (the shivans being a subspace-native race is also hinted by Bosch ‘shivans were born in a flux of subspace...’) know a lot more about it than any terran or vasudan ever will and they’ll be able to find ways into GTVA space, to once and for all stop the potential danger the GTVA is.

There is no diplomatic solution. There’s only the complete destruction of any GTVA population. And Bosch knows it.

So you see, everything forms together to a picture. There were endless species to discover the mysteries of subspace, they all started abusing it, they all were obliterated by the shivans. The same would happen to Terrans and Vasudans, who were lucky enough to suvive two encounters (but only cause they were left weak enough to stop harming the barrier enough so the shivans went calm again). The third encounter, though, would be the final blow to both all terrans and vasudans. Bosch wants to save the human race, even if it means killing all but Sol’s inhabitants. That way, at least Sol, our most precious thing, can be left in peace remembering the glory of the human race. The vasudans, unfortunately do not have any isolated systems, thus they cannot be conserved without facing the extinction of both species. Trying to teach the terrans will yield no results, as history keeps proving over and over. This is the explanation for the shivan’s behaviour as well as Bosch’s rebellion. And i’m pretty sure I hit Volitions nail on the head with my theory.

‘Course you could spice my theory up a bit here and there, it sounds a bit dumb if I write long essays, but you should get the basic idea.

If you have any questions (the above is very confusing probably) you can ask me, and i'll answer them as good as I can. :)
Modern man is the missing link between ape and human being.

 

Offline Lightspeed

  • Light Years Ahead
  • 212
Theories, Post 'Em In Here!
Forgot to mention: The energetic, subspacy-nature of the shivans can be seen in the hallfight when the shivan opens the armour suit.
Modern man is the missing link between ape and human being.

 

Offline aldo_14

  • Gunnery Control
  • 213
Theories, Post 'Em In Here!
Or it's just a gun

 

Offline Lightspeed

  • Light Years Ahead
  • 212
Theories, Post 'Em In Here!
We do not know. As I said it's a theory. :)

But then again, almost everything in the FS Unvierse is a theory :p
Modern man is the missing link between ape and human being.

 

Offline Hippo

  • Darth water-horse
  • 211
  • Grazing.
    • All Hands to War
Theories, Post 'Em In Here!
As Stryke 9 once said:

[q]Nah, I think this proves my theory that the Sathani are Shivan trailer homes. See, they really just wanted to make friends with the Terrans this whole time, but due to an unfortunate culture gap and some preliminary spy reports collected durign the Terran-Vasudan war, the Shivans figured our primary method of communication involved focusing high-density plasma charges into each other. Thus, Lucifer scout fleet showed up and transmitted the message "We come in peace", wiping out all nearby. Hurt and confused at the Terrans' and Vasudans' panicked flight, they followed the GTA fleet to Vasuda Prime. Knowing an important populated planet when they saw one, what subsequently ensued was the equivalent of thousands of years of Shivan history, science, and literature broken up into several easy-to-understand blasts... Thirty years later, the Shivans spot Terrans in their nebula. Curious as to what happened to their peace delegation, they accost the first fleet they see and bombard them with questions. The Terrans return fire, and, overjoyed that contact has finally been made, the Shivans mobilize their colony ships, ordering them to set up a permanent base around the nearest Terran star where Shivans and Terrans (and Vasudans, who the Shivans assumed were just more Terrans) could trade, communicate, and live in harmony. Up to the death of the Colossus, the Shivans maintained their good intentions, though they had to admit that maintaining good relations with the Terrans seemed to be getting an awful lot of them killed. It was only when the Terrans sealed off the first Capella jump node that the Shivans guessed that something was amiss. Slowly the idea formed that maybe we WEREN'T friendly, after all. Hurt by this possible breach of trust, the Shivans sent out one last delegate, headed on what they last knew as a route to the Sol system and the capitol of Terran government, housed in a Cain class executive transport. When diplomatic talks opened up prematurely and destroyed the Cain and the diplomat before a meeting, let alone consensus, could be achieved. Shocked and disgusted by the treachery of the Terrans, the Sathanas fleet blew up the Capella star in the universal signal for "farewell", which they hoped would eventually reach the remaining Terrans in other systems, and returned home, never to be seen by Terrans again.[/q]
VBB Survivor -- 387 Posts -- July 3 2001 - April 12 2002
VWBB Survivor -- 100 Posts -- July 10 2002 - July 10 2004

AHTW

 

Offline jdjtcagle

  • 211
  • Already told you people too much!
Theories, Post 'Em In Here!
To lightspeed.
WOW. :cool:
"Brings a tear of nostalgia to my eye" -Flipside
------------------------------------------
I'm an Apostolic Christian (Acts: 2:38)
------------------------------------------
Official Interplay Freespace Stories
Predator
Hammer Of Light - Omen of Darkness
Freefall in Darkness
A Thousand Years

 

Offline jdjtcagle

  • 211
  • Already told you people too much!
Theories, Post 'Em In Here!
This bugs me wouldn't gas miners mining from gas giants, say neptune, wouldn't that ignite the entire planet!! since neptune is made up of gas giants mostly made up of highly flammable subtances.:nod:

Also how do freespace ships turn?
I have accepted the fact, why the ships just stop when no power is directed to the engines.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2003, 02:30:40 pm by 1472 »
"Brings a tear of nostalgia to my eye" -Flipside
------------------------------------------
I'm an Apostolic Christian (Acts: 2:38)
------------------------------------------
Official Interplay Freespace Stories
Predator
Hammer Of Light - Omen of Darkness
Freefall in Darkness
A Thousand Years

 

Offline Flaser

  • 210
  • man/fish warsie
Theories, Post 'Em In Here!
It's an age old question jdjtcagle, but we guess the answer is gameplay.

BTW you need oxigane to burn anything or some other oxigent substant.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lightspeed this is an excelent theory!

However I once again have to voice my own version

I think my whole attempt to "enlighten" your point of view would be very similar to a discussion between Platon and Aristoteles.

Platon believed in an other world - or the world of ideas - and his beliefs formed the very bases for our culture (religion included, along with the prospect of a soul!), while Aristoteles claimed that the ideas he spoke of was nothing but abstactions of the world, an image that human creates in his mind.

IMHO the same stands for subspace.

You speak of it as another world in the same place - I think it's the SAME WORLD in the SAME PLACE!

Later I'll do a "technical run down of my subspace idea :)".

To make the whole concept short, subspace is present in small pockets however at certain places - like the big blackwhole at the middle of the galaxy, or a blackwhole that remained from the Big Bang it is very fluid and more stabile than elsewhere, so there is no such thing as a pure "subspace world".

However what I agree on is that the use of subspace "hurts subspace" - but not real space, and I doubt it would collapse the universe for if it could it would have quite a while ago.

I think that the damage can be undone - however it takes several millenias for subspace to regain its texture.

I doubt Shivans have originated from subspace since they are too physical to be energy beings - and I think only energy beings can be born in a world that's constantly shifting and has huge energies on the loose - however they could have been sent by one specie who is.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The point I'd like to emphasis is their age - as I always do.
Thousands of years! Human history in not roughly more than ten thousand years (some would say twenty)!
These being lived for thousand years without chaging too much - they are either incapable of change or their current way of life is too rigid.
The reason behind this could be that they are robots - but if they're just automats, then they couldn't even handle the necessities of war.

So they are ither partly/wholly cybernetic beings sent by someone or acting on their own volition, one things remains the same - they're ancient.

That thing alone answers why they have zero-G tendencies in their bodies - or why zero-G evolution has taken a toll on them - they've just spent so much time in space they evolved while doing so!

Back to the age stuff, if they are that old....and still not Gods.... they must have reached a static level of life or at least something - or they temselves - prevent them from evolving further (.....or degenerating too. Some believe the only evitable end of evolution is death and decay and only doom awaits at the end of the tunnel).

So we have a bunch of cyborgs in a form that is milenias old (we don't know wheter they live that long, but their way of life and the way they handle things seems to suggest they are quite used to everything the universe may throw at them and simply stopped caring - they've always won, so they will win just like they did so far regardless setbacks).

If their culture or customs are that ancient it has to be quite static or have a very strong basis to stand throughout the changes of history.

Before you go on and say "Good, now what about their motives?" let's ponder this a little more. Did we have smg. similar on Earth, during our own Terran history.

You won't really find examples withing your reach, for the Western/European/American culture was always in perril and such forms of state were impossible.

As Henry Kissinger puts it in the Introduction of his book "History of Diplomacy", in Europe where the land is small and resources are close the constant struggle of wills was seen as an insusrer of the greater peace.

However most of Earth never knew such belief! In the East, Asia was ruled by EMPIRES most of the time - they stood for hundred if not thousand years and the dimensions of an individual were far less important than his place in the greater picture.

If we can take any merit from the above, then I have to conclude that Shivans have IMPERIAL tendencies, not in the terms of the age of colonisation, but rather the very thoughts and ideals of living in a huge imperium.

The other possibility is that they resemble a more primitive form, the tribal society that has lived even today (please take a look at the Middle East). During our entire history some place on Earth were so harsh that it was impossible to maintian a stabile life - so only nomad tribes could exist.
Of course as technology advanced less and less places fir into the category, but who can say that were never setbacks, or other problems that arose with the effects of the said advancement on society (IMHO the several dictatorships and other late "cyberpunkish" tendencies around centralised power show this desire for the return an earlier "form of leadership" (with deadly promise for opposition) that can hold the society together).
Never the less tribal and dictatoric societies exit and I'm afraid that they will exist in the future too. These societies are very rigid by nature to ensure the sheer survival of the people when resources are far between.
This situations can arise anywhere in history so this form of society or just the general rigidness can arise time to time.

It is possible that Shivans inherited nomadic/tribal tendencies.

Now we have a deadly mixture for Shivan behavior.
If something is old it has to be rigid if it's unchanging. The two possibilities I saw is either the imperialistic character created by the sheer wastness of the culture - and it is a good generalisation that the older a state the "bigger" it gets culturally and by sheer territory if it maintains it position, the other is the nomad tendancy created by the harshness of life.

Mix those - imperial with nomad.

The fact they ruled so long, as well as their constant move and lack of interest in planets can validate both statements.

You have a substance that can be more evil than anything to your Christian soul (I mean Christian as someone brought up in that cultural environment, it's not religion I speak of), for it contradicts most of your beliefs and your ways of life.

Vasudans were - imperial, civilised. Terrans idividualistic, civilised.

Regardless their motives or their origin with those attributes they are going to be the nemesis of Terrans.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So if we look for the goals of Shivans we have 3 things to consider:
-Shivans are ancient--> imperial, nomad
-Subspace is damaged by its very use.

The Shivans could originate from an empire - their own, or their masters, that would explain the imperial part more clearly than the sheer time stuff (though such a mindset has a greater chance to endure time).
If it was their/their masters empire they must have used subspace - and an empire that old is beyond our imgination. It must have been huge.
However the greater the emire the heavier the subspace use - so in growing so big any empire in effect kills itself.
Asimov portreys this excelently in his Foundation novels - over centralisation leads to decay and eventual impossibility to keep the centre alive, while decentralisation leads to fragmentation of the state.

You need a massive flow of matter and spirit (yes, spirit, a part of culture the general ideals and thought IMHO are just as important as goods), to maintain the empire - for the lack will separate the parts and either lead to fragmentation or an ever growing strain between the centre and the ruled worlds.

Either the Shivans or their Masters must have realised this - or they would have perished - so some measure was taken to prevent or reform the use of subspace.

So a purpose of the Shivan is to solve the subspace crisis.

Going from the nomadic point of view Shivans could have been nomads all the time - however as simple nomads they would never rise to the piller of power they stand upon.
They either became nomads following a powerfull cataclysm ("their exile") or were created as wanderers to do their duty (monitoring/annihilting the leseer subspace users), it is also possible they were the nomads who brought down the empire before it could kill itself so subspace abuse, and live off the remains.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 TO SUM UP MY THOUGHTS OF SHIVAN NATURE
-Shivans are ancient --> imerial and/or nomadic - probably both
-Subspace fragile --> subspace crisis

Shivans are an answer to the subspace crisis.
They are either smg. that remained from a once great empire (as its servants/soldiers, once rulers or the rebells who brought it down), or the empire has left our know world along with the crisis leaving the Shivans behind to prevent another crisis.
They can protect an existing empire too - however the empire can be in decay, or exist mostly in the Shivans imagination remaining in ruins, or the Shivans can struggle to revive it and has to pacify the whole galaxy to do so - and calm the ripples of subspace as well.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
COCKYTUS -
viable without the center of universe - the galactic balckwhole would be just as good.

Their could be an alternate answer other than the regulation of subspace travel or annihilation:

I liked the Cockytus idea - by moving INTO SUBSPACE, a transfer system can be set up that can monitor and use subspace effectivly, with a carefull schedule and planning the effects of several and millions of vessels can be toned down.
Think of Lightspeed's glass with oild and water.
If you toned all the pokes to a rythm and the surface could keep up the pace - of course if you kept doing that eventually it would still be too much, but it would take a lot more effort.

It could be that that's what precisly happened. The empire thught they solved their problems, when a a couple of thousand years later they overstressed their new subspace, destroying their own civilisation - leaving the Shivans behind who vainly try to put things to their place "removing" off sync. interference who could casuse the breakdown - us and all the orher races, that have risen since the fall of the empire.

It is also possible that other events eventually consumed the empire leaving space for other races - however COCKYTUS is still there - with the promise of salvation.

However COCKYTUS was the empire's stronghold and centre, as well as the heart of the galaxy near the great black hole where subspace is smootherst.

A paradise in the abbys of death, guarded by the fiery dragons of an angry subspace enraged by mortals meddling with powers beyond their right.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SUBSPACE

We don't live in a 4 dimensional time space, we live in multidimensional one. Stephan Hawkings already mentioned this theory in the "Brief History of Time" - he used the orange aproximation.

When you look at an orange from distance you can pretty much say it's a sphere - however if you look close you can notice all the small bumbs and trenches on the surface.

The same stands for the other dimensions - they don't come into play unless events take place on a miniscule scale - quantum phisic scale.

Latest studies try to explain this even without addition of new "dimensions". Instead - as far as I could understand - they explained it as if space could "wrap around itself" creating small pockets of universe.

Of cource these wraps have an edge - that's where you can enter.

However it seems the laws of physics aply everywherer - so gravity, electromagnetic fields, weak and strong interaction can intervince.

Gravity is special since it practically wraps space if some of Einstein's laws are viewed in that fashion, so gravity can disturb these pockets, and create an opportunity to enter - thereby a node.

IMHO subspace is not homogene, it is fractured in most of the universe but around big masses with great gravitiy it is more solid than elsewhere - this is the reason intra system jumps are esier to make.
"I was going to become a speed dealer. If one stupid fairytale turns out to be total nonsense, what does the young man do? If you answered, “Wake up and face reality,” you don’t remember what it was like being a young man. You just go to the next entry in the catalogue of lies you can use to destroy your life." - John Dolan

 

Offline TrashMan

  • T-tower Avenger. srsly.
  • 213
  • God-Emperor of your kind!
    • Minecraft
    • FLAMES OF WAR
Theories, Post 'Em In Here!
Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14
Or it's just a gun


It is a gun. It sez so in the tech room.

Energy beeings? Someone watched too much ST. That's the worst thing in the whole ST universe.

ENERGY CANNOT BE ALIVE!!!!! period.
Nobody dies as a virgin - the life ****s us all!

You're a wrongularity from which no right can escape!

 

Offline Odyssey

  • Stormrider
  • 28
Theories, Post 'Em In Here!
[color=cc9900]Why not? Just because in our experience it isn't, doesn't mean it can't be. I might as well say:
ORGANIC BEINGS CANNOT BE ALIVE!!!!!111 period[/color]

 

Offline jdjtcagle

  • 211
  • Already told you people too much!
Theories, Post 'Em In Here!
we could go matrix and say that the shivans were AI created by ancients for galatic domination. and then.....:)
"Brings a tear of nostalgia to my eye" -Flipside
------------------------------------------
I'm an Apostolic Christian (Acts: 2:38)
------------------------------------------
Official Interplay Freespace Stories
Predator
Hammer Of Light - Omen of Darkness
Freefall in Darkness
A Thousand Years

 

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
Theories, Post 'Em In Here!
Quote
Originally posted by jdjtcagle
This bugs me wouldn't gas miners mining from gas giants, say neptune, wouldn't that ignite the entire planet!! since neptune is made up of gas giants mostly made up of highly flammable subtances.:nod:


You need an oxidising agent for a substance to burn. On gas giants like neptune you don't have one so nothing much happens.
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 

Offline Lightspeed

  • Light Years Ahead
  • 212
Theories, Post 'Em In Here!
Beware: severe quoting ahead

Quote
Originally posted by Flaser

Lightspeed this is an excelent theory!

However I once again have to voice my own version


sure, you got some things wrong about my version though i want to clarify to you

 
Quote

You speak of it as another world in the same place - I think it's the SAME WORLD in the SAME PLACE!


That's what i said. Its the same world, its in the same place but actually could be called two worlds since theyre pretty much seperate. Look at a sheet of paper. It's 2-dimensional and is affected by actions in the 3rd Dimension, although it does not see or notice the presence of the 3rd dimension.

Quote

To make the whole concept short, subspace is present in small pockets however at certain places - like the big blackwhole at the middle of the galaxy, or a blackwhole that remained from the Big Bang it is very fluid and more stabile than elsewhere, so there is no such thing as a pure "subspace world".


IMHO untrue. Subspace exists everywhere, anywhere you can think of. And all that black hole stuff is assumption, there's other theories about the center of galaxies -- There is, of course no such thing as a pure 'subspace world' but there is points you CANNOT reach with the second dimension (up/down) or the first dimension (left/right/up/down). Same thing for the third dimension, the fourth dimension and so on. There ARE high-dimensional-only places

 
Quote

However what I agree on is that the use of subspace "hurts subspace" - but not real space, and I doubt it would collapse the universe for if it could it would have quite a while ago.

I think that the damage can be undone - however it takes several millenias for subspace to regain its texture.


Yep. I forgot to mention but as a glass with oil & water will settle down, so will subspace. If you stop entering and exitting it, of course.

Quote

I doubt Shivans have originated from subspace since they are too physical to be energy beings - and I think only energy beings can be born in a world that's constantly shifting and has huge energies on the loose - however they could have been sent by one specie who is.


Now read up CAREFULLY. Shivans themselves could never exist in what we call 'space'. They made half-shivan half-robotic hulls to move around in (or nearly complete robots). In my theory the only sighting of a shivan we ever get to see is in Hallfight, when the shivan opens the armour suit. The rest is like our spaceships. Theyre flying through subspace, yet would a terran never adapt to it. So the shivans 'sent themselves', modified.

Quote

The point I'd like to emphasis is their age - as I always do.
Thousands of years! Human history in not roughly more than ten thousand years (some would say twenty)!
These being lived for thousand years without chaging too much - they are either incapable of change or their current way of life is too rigid.
The reason behind this could be that they are robots - but if they're just automats, then they couldn't even handle the necessities of war.

So they are ither partly/wholly cybernetic beings sent by someone or acting on their own volition, one things remains the same - they're ancient.


Humans are about a million years old, civilisation started roughly 14000 years ago. The shivans did change. However, If you look at such an alien, multidimensional life form you will not notice. The semi robotic hulls might have changed a bit, but the concept remains the same. Theres no need to change it, is there?


 
Quote
That thing alone answers why they have zero-G tendencies in their bodies - or why zero-G evolution has taken a toll on them - they've just spent so much time in space they evolved while doing so!


I dont think so. I think (if you read up) that what we can see of a shivan is a semi-robotic being ESPECIALLY designed for zero G operations. In their spaceships, creating gravity would only take up extra energy. So why waste it, when you can create a body to perfectly adapt to zero G environments? The shivans themselves, are probably not used to gravity either, at least not as we know it. The Vortex is too different to what we know

Quote
Back to the age stuff, if they are that old....and still not Gods.... they must have reached a static level of life or at least something - or they temselves - prevent them from evolving further (.....or degenerating too. Some believe the only evitable end of evolution is death and decay and only doom awaits at the end of the tunnel).


Once again, i dont think so. Theyre simply alien enough for us not to notice. Who will actually SEE a shivan (not the robotic armour suit) and who would UNDERSTAND it. Probably you need to be a shivan yourself to properly percieve a shivan at all.

Quote
So we have a bunch of cyborgs in a form that is milenias old (we don't know wheter they live that long, but their way of life and the way they handle things seems to suggest they are quite used to everything the universe may throw at them and simply stopped caring - they've always won, so they will win just like they did so far regardless setbacks).


Any multidimensional being is powerful. I'm pretty sure TIME is our fourth dimension (any three dimensional room can exist at infinite times, so that's quite four dimensional room we live it) - so imagine, they have infinite time to build their armada, they have probably control of other dimensions we dont even dream of.

Imagine the paper again. You can bend it around, and the creatures living on it will wonder why they can go easier in one direction, suddenly. you can poke holes through it, and they will claim 'that space vanishes'.

Quote
If their culture or customs are that ancient it has to be quite static or have a very strong basis to stand throughout the changes of history.

Before you go on and say "Good, now what about their motives?" let's ponder this a little more. Did we have smg. similar on Earth, during our own Terran history.

You won't really find examples withing your reach, for the Western/European/American culture was always in perril and such forms of state were impossible.

As Henry Kissinger puts it in the Introduction of his book "History of Diplomacy", in Europe where the land is small and resources are close the constant struggle of wills was seen as an insusrer of the greater peace.

However most of Earth never knew such belief! In the East, Asia was ruled by EMPIRES most of the time - they stood for hundred if not thousand years and the dimensions of an individual were far less important than his place in the greater picture.

If we can take any merit from the above, then I have to conclude that Shivans have IMPERIAL tendencies, not in the terms of the age of colonisation, but rather the very thoughts and ideals of living in a huge imperium.


Shivans are not in any way comparable to terrans. Theyre far older and have evolved a lot. Theyre far ABOVE terran standards. The only thing that counts is the communtiy, the Vortex.

Quote
The other possibility is that they resemble a more primitive form, the tribal society that has lived even today (please take a look at the Middle East). During our entire history some place on Earth were so harsh that it was impossible to maintian a stabile life - so only nomad tribes could exist.
Of course as technology advanced less and less places fir into the category, but who can say that were never setbacks, or other problems that arose with the effects of the said advancement on society (IMHO the several dictatorships and other late "cyberpunkish" tendencies around centralised power show this desire for the return an earlier "form of leadership" (with deadly promise for opposition) that can hold the society together).
Never the less tribal and dictatoric societies exit and I'm afraid that they will exist in the future too. These societies are very rigid by nature to ensure the sheer survival of the people when resources are far between.
This situations can arise anywhere in history so this form of society or just the general rigidness can arise time to time.

It is possible that Shivans inherited nomadic/tribal tendencies.


Again, I dont think there is such thing as a 'form of leadership' or anything. They KNOW about each other, they can share THOUGHTS with each other, they can BE each other, they can FEEL each other, you see.... theres no need for some being like this to have a state of any kind. Shivans are too superiour.

Quote

So if we look for the goals of Shivans we have 3 things to consider:
-Shivans are ancient--> imperial, nomad
-Subspace is damaged by its very use.

The Shivans could originate from an empire - their own, or their masters, that would explain the imperial part more clearly than the sheer time stuff (though such a mindset has a greater chance to endure time).
If it was their/their masters empire they must have used subspace - and an empire that old is beyond our imgination. It must have been huge.
However the greater the emire the heavier the subspace use - so in growing so big any empire in effect kills itself.
Asimov portreys this excelently in his Foundation novels - over centralisation leads to decay and eventual impossibility to keep the centre alive, while decentralisation leads to fragmentation of the state.


Seen above, don't think they have masters, I think they are their own masters, yet the are in unstopping communication with the Vortex, acting like a collective mind, as they can GATHER and COMBINE their thoughts and energies to achieve things a single shivan would never be able to.

Quote
You need a massive flow of matter and spirit (yes, spirit, a part of culture the general ideals and thought IMHO are just as important as goods), to maintain the empire - for the lack will separate the parts and either lead to fragmentation or an ever growing strain between the centre and the ruled worlds.

Either the Shivans or their Masters must have realised this - or they would have perished - so some measure was taken to prevent or reform the use of subspace.


Shivans never conquered worlds. You know they didnt cause they NEVER actually captured a planet or anything. They only get ahold of JUMP NODES. Wonder why? Read my theory

Shivans themselves only use 'subspace jumps' when they have to. They know about the effects, and they always knew. They get ATTRACTED by disturbances. It's in their nature. That's why theyre 'the great preservers'.

Quote
So a purpose of the Shivan is to solve the subspace crisis.

Going from the nomadic point of view Shivans could have been nomads all the time - however as simple nomads they would never rise to the piller of power they stand upon.
They either became nomads following a powerfull cataclysm ("their exile") or were created as wanderers to do their duty (monitoring/annihilting the leseer subspace users), it is also possible they were the nomads who brought down the empire before it could kill itself so subspace abuse, and live off the remains.


Shivans dont want to annihilate lesser subspace users. They NEED to prevent an apocalypse caused by massive subspace use. They can only focus on the greatest annoyances, little users will left unharmed. I'm not saying terrans are a great annoyance, theres probably much more powerful races the shivans are fighting. Yet theyre annoying enough for the shivans to care.

Quote

COCKYTUS -
viable without the center of universe - the galactic balckwhole would be just as good.

Their could be an alternate answer other than the regulation of subspace travel or annihilation:

I liked the Cockytus idea - by moving INTO SUBSPACE, a transfer system can be set up that can monitor and use subspace effectivly, with a carefull schedule and planning the effects of several and millions of vessels can be toned down.
Think of Lightspeed's glass with oild and water.
If you toned all the pokes to a rythm and the surface could keep up the pace - of course if you kept doing that eventually it would still be too much, but it would take a lot more effort.

It could be that that's what precisly happened. The empire thught they solved their problems, when a a couple of thousand years later they overstressed their new subspace, destroying their own civilisation - leaving the Shivans behind who vainly try to put things to their place "removing" off sync. interference who could casuse the breakdown - us and all the orher races, that have risen since the fall of the empire.

It is also possible that other events eventually consumed the empire leaving space for other races - however COCKYTUS is still there - with the promise of salvation.

However COCKYTUS was the empire's stronghold and centre, as well as the heart of the galaxy near the great black hole where subspace is smootherst.

A paradise in the abbys of death, guarded by the fiery dragons of an angry subspace enraged by mortals meddling with powers beyond their right.


very weird. Of course ther will be possibilities to use subspace without creating that much disturbance, but the shivans as remnants of a subspace using civilisation? That doesn't make sense. The shivans ARE subspace-native, else they would not act like they do, or care like they care. Subspace is not solid or anything anywhere. I think big gravity disturbes the barrier (as it would do in our glass) -- so theyre easy to make since you can PENETRATE the barrier more easily. You still do the same (actually even more!) damage though.

Quote

SUBSPACE

We don't live in a 4 dimensional time space, we live in multidimensional one. Stephan Hawkings already mentioned this theory in the "Brief History of Time" - he used the orange aproximation.

When you look at an orange from distance you can pretty much say it's a sphere - however if you look close you can notice all the small bumbs and trenches on the surface.

The same stands for the other dimensions - they don't come into play unless events take place on a miniscule scale - quantum phisic scale.

Latest studies try to explain this even without addition of new "dimensions". Instead - as far as I could understand - they explained it as if space could "wrap around itself" creating small pockets of universe.

Of cource these wraps have an edge - that's where you can enter.

However it seems the laws of physics aply everywherer - so gravity, electromagnetic fields, weak and strong interaction can intervince.

Gravity is special since it practically wraps space if some of Einstein's laws are viewed in that fashion, so gravity can disturb these pockets, and create an opportunity to enter - thereby a node.

IMHO subspace is not homogene, it is fractured in most of the universe but around big masses with great gravitiy it is more solid than elsewhere - this is the reason intra system jumps are esier to make.
Quote


Subspace is too high for any human to understand. However, we DO live in a multi dimensional room, yet our understanding is limited to 4 dimensions. We can possibly feel effects of other dimensions but we will never be able to distinguish or call them something. I think the scale can be quite big too, its just that at micro scale the things get difficult enough so we NEED more dimensions to explain as the effects are more apparent. However, I BET theres a LOT more things influenced by thousands of dimensions we dont have the slightest idea of. Even shivans have their limits ;) Subspace nodes are weak points in the multidimensional room. Imagine the paper again. We force a pen through it. You can move to the edge -- you will notice youre suddenly moving easier toward the 'unknown' than back, you will be PULLED into it, you cannot move back anymore. AAAND--- you'll fall off the paper. Of course you do not KNOW you did or do since you cannot percieve it, but you will have trouble :)
You will possibly land on the paper again, which is wrapped up. But you will land on a VERY distant point. You'll not KNOW the paper is wrapped though as it seems straight to you, in your bent 2-dimensional room. Same thing with gravity. The thrird dimension bends around it, we do not see it though? why? since the fourth dimension (time) is not visible to us. Yet we can PROVE that time changes ar very high speeds (infinite mass -- GRAVITY) or at high gravity. Same thing then again with subspace. It's influenced by a lot of things -- for example time and gravity

phew
Modern man is the missing link between ape and human being.

 

Offline Beowulf

  • 27
Theories, Post 'Em In Here!
Good theories, all, but, uhhh.... obsessive much? :eek2:
Never Forget

"It is always better to avenge dear ones than to induldge in mourning. For every one of us, living in this world means waiting for our end. Let whoever can win glory before death. When a warrior is gone, that will be his best and only bulwark."
                               --Beowulf


"... and no, real life sex is not just a myth. You just need to come out of your house once every while..." ~Tiara

YeeeeHoooooh! is the mood of the day. :p

 

Offline jdjtcagle

  • 211
  • Already told you people too much!
Theories, Post 'Em In Here!
Does it not feel good to get away from reality.
Obsession, there is no greater joy
« Last Edit: December 29, 2003, 02:00:49 am by 1472 »
"Brings a tear of nostalgia to my eye" -Flipside
------------------------------------------
I'm an Apostolic Christian (Acts: 2:38)
------------------------------------------
Official Interplay Freespace Stories
Predator
Hammer Of Light - Omen of Darkness
Freefall in Darkness
A Thousand Years

 

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
Theories, Post 'Em In Here!
Quote
Originally posted by Beowulf
Good theories, all, but, uhhh.... obsessive much? :eek2:


Once you have a proper theory in place it makes for a better campaign since you know why the Shivans are doing things, what Bosch was up to etc.
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]