[phreak]

Nazis had 43% of the vote by 1932.  Up ~10% or so from 1931.  If Hitler had waited to seize power, the Nazis would have definately got a majority vote (if the rate held).

[Flipside]

Fortunately for the rest of the world, strangely enough, Hitler was a stark staring Meglomaniac. Had someone more savvy been in charge, the War may very well have gone differently for Britain.

One thing I must admit I wonder about is all this 'evidence' found in Iraq, the supposed Nuclear Research Lab, details of cash payments to a British MP, details of how to build Nuclear devices etc.... Once these started being proved as complete cheese, they myseriously vanished without a word, I wonder where they went?

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by PhReAk
Nazis had 43% of the vote by 1932.  Up ~10% or so from 1931.  If Hitler had waited to seize power, the Nazis would have definately got a majority vote (if the rate held).

EDIT
In the May 5 elections of 1932, Hindenburg defeated Hitler 53% to 37% for the presidency, but there was no majority in the Reichstag for any party; in the July31 elections the Nazis won 230 seats with 37% of the vote and became the largest German party, but dropped to 33% in the Nov. 6 elections; Dec. 1, Kurt von Schleicher replaced Franz von Papen as Chancellor but instability increased.

Hitler made Chancellor Jan. 30, 1933, with the help of von Papen, and sought revision of Versailles system by immediately beginning a rearmament program with the support of industrialists such as Alfred Hugenberg and Gustav Krupp (who by April agreed to remove Jewish workers from his factories), and a public works program announced at the Feb. 11 International Automobile and Motor-Cycle Exhibition in Berlin, to build autobahns with 600,000 workers and make a Volksauto for less than 1000 marks.

In the March 5, 1933 elections, the National Socialist German Workers' Party won 43.9% and 288 of 647 seats in the Reichstag. The Malicious Practices Act of March 21, 1933, began the mass arrests of communists and socialists, the Dauchau concentration camp was set up March 22 in a former powder milk plant, the Enabling Act March 23 made Hitler dictator and eliminated other parties such as the pro-Catholic Zentrum, radical books were burned May 10.

On Sept. 27, 1933, the Nazis blamed communists for the Reichstag fire.

(http://history.acusd.edu/gen/WW2Timeline/Prelude03.html)

[an0n]

All I was saying about the Treaty was that it stripped Germany of everything.

As for the concentration camps, it doesn't exactly take a genius to go from "Hitler wrote a book about killing Jews" and "Hitler is invading a largely Jewish country" to "Hitler's going to kill the Jews".

And Germany was recovering. Thanks to some politician whose name I cannot remember and the Dawes Plan, Germany was given a ****load of money (around 1924) and was on it's way to becoming not-a-****hole. Then the Great Depression killed it (1929).

Also, through a series of political killings, the burning of the Reichstag and some rapid-fire re-electing Hitler did get elected but the Nazi's never had a majority. If the other two governmental factions (whose ideologies and names escape me) had banded together they could've out-voted the Nazi's and ousted them fairly easily. But they instead chose to bicker and ***** at each other while Hitler 'canoodled' himself a greater percentage.


PS: At least use the goddamn SIZE tag.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by an0n
All I was saying about the Treaty was that it stripped Germany of everything.

As for the concentration camps, it doesn't exactly take a genius to go from "Hitler wrote a book about killing Jews" and "Hitler is invading a largely Jewish country" to "Hitler's going to kill the Jews".

And Germany was recovering. Thanks to some politician whose name I cannot remember and the Dawes Plan, Germany was given a ****load of money (around 1924) and was on it's way to becoming not-a-****hole. Then the Great Depression killed it (1929).

Also, through a series of political killings, the burning of the Reichstag and some rapid-fire re-electing Hitler did get elected but the Nazi's never had a majority. If the other two governmental factions (whose ideologies and names escape me) had banded together they could've out-voted the Nazi's and ousted them fairly easily. But they instead chose to bicker and ***** at each other while Hitler 'canoodled' himself a greater percentage.


PS: At least use the goddamn SIZE tag.

You were blaming the US for the effects of the Treaty, which was inaccurate, as it was more the fault of the French (don't want to get a French bashing match started, but it is true).  

Also, the countries Hitler invaded were ones with a large population of Germans (up until Poland) - Austria, the Ruhrland and the north(?) of Czechoslovakia.  It is also highly unlikely that it would have been expected that Hitler would create concentation camps.... offhand, I can't really think of a comparable precedent in history before that.

i haven;t been able to find a good site on the Dawe Plan, but IIRC it made Germany reliant on foreign investment - not the property of an economically strong country.   Whether or not that would facilitate recovery is something i'll leave to economists to debate...my impresison is that the Germany was extremely fragile, as seen by the influence of the Great Depression.

The 2 other largest factions were the Democratic party (can't remeber name, but the 'normal' one)....and the Communists.

[Ghostavo]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WW2 was an indirect result of something happening in 1929 (in the U.S.) if I recall, it was called the "Great Depression" so Britain and France, the main forces behind the control made on Germany by the armistice were seriously affected as well as most of europe. I don't believe this to be the americans fault, but it was the economists fault!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


No.

The Treaty of Versailles took everything Germany had, so they had to lend a ****-load of cash from America to pay France reparitions so that they wouldn't invade the Rhineland and take all the coal (one of the few valuables that Germany had left). After a while and with some very clever politicizing Germany was getting back on its feet and was on its way to becoming a respectable state again.

When the stock-market crashed, America called in all its loans and pulled the rug out from under Germany. Germany was suddenly bankrupt and this opened the door for Hitler to come in *****ing about how the Jews had caused it all. How the Jews, who owned most of the banks and **** in America that screwed Germany, had most definitely screwed Germany.

How shall I start this... hm...
I wonder what happened in 1929, and what that event started... (I should have wrote "starting" instead of "happening" on my previous post which is quoted here)
Yep... that's what I figured...

[diamondgeezer]

Originally posted by aldo_14
It is also highly unlikely that it would have been expected that Hitler would create concentation camps.... offhand, I can't really think of a comparable precedent in history before that.

Um, actually Kitchner stuffed the Boers in concentration camps way back in the day. The more I learn about our history the less I like it

[an0n]

You cannot attribute WW2 to the Great Depression, nor to any other singular event.

If anything it was mostly down to Germany being crapped on by the Treaty Of Versailles. They got their asses kicked, their king ran off to Amsterdam, their economy was gone, their workers were all dead, their resources had been wasted on war, destroyed or taken by the invaders and then after all that: They had to suffer the indignity of their long-time enemy, France, lording it up and dictating policy to them.

So as soon as they were able, they went and restarted WW1.

[aldo_14]

Like all wars, World War 2 had many contributing causes - re-emergin German nationalism owing to the aftereffects of world war 2, the conflict of fascist / communist ideology, the effects of WW1 reducing the will of allied countries to fight, Hitlers 'aggressive' economic policies that had to be financed through invasion, etc.  and that's without considering Japan, Russia, Italy, the effects of the collapse of teh LofN, the Spanish civil war, etc.

[an0n]

WW2 was down to one vague factor: Germany got dicked on after WW1.

They were pissed and looking for a fight. Hitler offered it to them and they jumped at the chance for some cold, cold revenge.

[Blue Lion]

When did this become a history class?

[mikhael]

Understanding history is vital to understanding the present. Those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it, and all that.

[Shrike]

Originally posted by Rictor
Besides Shrike, they've got TV now. It does the same thing. Instead of worrying how many children your tax dollars killed today, you can just watch The Bachelor or The OC or whatever **** happens to be on that day. And then you get immersed in their reality instead of your own, and suddenly everything is all right.

As I've said before, I believe that in the near future, there will be entire wars that go completely unnoticed because the final episode of Survivor was one. The politicians have figured out a way to keep the masses docile, and its called TeeVee. No one knows who the president of Iran is, but everyone knows every little detail about Jennifer Lopez and Ben Afflek's marriage woes. Its ****ing shameful.

My tax dollars hasn't killed children in a while to my knowledge..... Guess I'm lucky that I'm not American.  Of course we've got our own issues but we don't have the US's power so they're nowhere near as visible.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by an0n
WW2 was down to one vague factor: Germany got dicked on after WW1.

They were pissed and looking for a fight. Hitler offered it to them and they jumped at the chance for some cold, cold revenge.

You're forgetting Germany wasn't the only country in the Axis....what led Italy & Japan, for example, into war?  Why did Russia sign a non-aggression pact with Germany, allowing them to-initially-avoid a 2 fronted war?  What prevent Britain and  / or France from either stamping down on the German remilitarisation, or suspending reparations?  Why did Hitler come to power?

etc, etc.

Yes, the Teaty of Versailles was a primary factor - problably the main one.  But there are other factors that you can't just ignore, which is the point i'm making.

[Dark_4ce]

Hmm... I personally believe that no war is ever cause by one issue alone, but I do agree that the treaty was the major cause. Germany did get their ass kicked in WW1, they got their whole navy dismantled, and they were globally humiliated. The people wanted revenge, and Hitler offered it to them...

but thankfully, when you play with the devil, you'll always get ****ed in the end.

[Rictor]

Originally posted by an0n
If you're refering to bombing the **** out of Kosovo, I think destroying a few buildings to stop the genocide of an entire race of people is about as good a justification for war as you can get.
 

Oh for ****s sake. I would have thought that someone as jaded as yourself would be a bit more resilient to the effects of near propaganda. Silly me.

Mistake 1:

Those "few buildings" you refer to are are actually thousands of civilians. I don't know the precise figure, no one does, but around 1500 Serb civilians died as a result of the bombing, and many Albanians too. The targets hit by NATO bombs include:

-TV Stations
-Marketplaces
-Hospitals
-Refugee convoys (Albanian ones at that. Yes, those Albanians. The ones who you were "protecting")
-Schools
-Private residences
-Churches
-The Chinese Embassy. (I had a good laugh about that one)

Mistake 2

One has only to speak the word genocide, and everyone jumps on the bandwagon. No one bothers to check if there actually IS a genocide going on. I'll save you the trouble, there wasn't.  The "genocide of an entire race" is bull****. Pure, 24k bull****. The conflict in Kosovo was between KLA (Kosovo Libertation Army) terrorists (and yes, they have been classified as such by the US prior to the war) and Serb police forces. The KLA wanted independece for Kosovo, Serbia didn't agree. As long as you (Britain) deny the very same thing to Ireland, your hipocracy is apparent. During the fighting, both sides "strongly persuaded" opposing residents to leave the area. So, Serb refugees fled north, and Albanian refugees fled south. I can't remember the exact figures, but there was more Serb refugees than Albanian ones. The media multiplied the actual number of refugees by something like ten fold. And everyone bought into it, completely ignoring the fact that a)The figures were made up and b)There was as many if not more Serb refugees than Albanian ones.

As for the "mass graves" found, well they too were a fabrication. First of all, the figures are not in the thousands but rather in the hundreds. Hundreds does not constitute genocide, especially when those burried were soldiers, not civilians. Oh and, by the way,  there were Serbs buried there too, counted by the media as Albanians. So now you don't have thousands of civilians, you've got hundreds of soldiers, some of whom were Serbs. Convenient things, lies.

Ommisions 1

You know tht evil bastard, bin Laden? Public enemy #1. Yeah him. Well, guess who was the US best buddy during the Kosovo war? Hey, who 'da thunk it. Not only has it been proven that the KLA had (and still has) connections to Islamic terrorist groups, but its quite possible that bin Laden was sent to Kosovo to rally the troops. Damn those facts, very inconvenient aren't they.

Ommision 2

Since NATIO invaded and set up Kosovo as a protectorate, all the things that the media said was going on in Kosovo in 1999 are actually happening today. Only now, its the other way around. The KLA do as they will, and the international "peacekeepers" are unwilling to stop them. What does this include? The mass expulsion on non-Albanian peoples from Kosovo. Not just Serbs, anyone who isn't Albanian. The constant terrorist attacks ( defined as attacks on civilains) against the few remaining Serbs in the area. Worth mentioning also is that Kosovo before the war was the main route for heroin from Asia bound for Europe. Thats how the KLA financed their operations. And you know whats changed. Nutin'.

__

Wow, a several hundred word response to a two sentence statement. And you know the thing that gets to me? You (and probably no one else) will read it. Thats the price of going counter to a frequently discredited yet widely believed lie.

[Blue Lion]

I went through it

[vyper]

(1) Kosovo ethnic cleansing was precipitated by the US led bombing, it did not occur before hand.
(2) KFOR troops stood by and did nothing while Serbs either fled or were evacuated by KLA forces "reclaiming" Kosovo.
(3) Ireland is different - by the late 20th century it was more about gangsters and power plays than ideology.

[01010]

As far as I can recall, most Northern Irelanders actually want to be part of Britain and the whole situation over there is so ****ed up that I don't ever really think it'll ever go away.

[Flipside]

4 : The IRA was financed to a massive degree in it's campaign of terror against British civilians by unknowing American business men who believed they were funding a 'peaceful' protest against the situation.