Author Topic: Freaking Microsoft  (Read 10174 times)

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Offline Odyssey

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[color=cc9900]Personally I'm just trying to help Zarax see that there is in fact an alternative that already exists and is easy to use, with all the compatibility he wants. It's up to him whether he chooses it or not, but we need to try. As it stands, he's not making a very convincing argument against switching.[/color]

 

Offline Kazan

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Odyssey: precisely - he's just spewing the M$ spewed FUD that he's boughten into

AFK for a bit
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Offline Odyssey

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[color=cc9900]"Bought into" is a very appropriate term indeed.[/color]

 

Offline Fineus

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Have you ever thought that typically people can't be insulted into seeing another point of view?

Just a thought...

 

Offline Zarax

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Quote
Originally posted by Kazan



You're dodging the issue - you claimed to have considered the alternatives - explain your reasoning or admit that you haven't considered them



I have tried most open source systems, including the various flavours of linux, and i did not find anything worth the loss of most of my old software, including compilers, debuggers and various SDKs.




WRONG - DEAD WRONG -- Each company has a small group of programmers that they pay to contribute to the projects.  Each company puts some value into the project - each company get's the value of their contribution combined with the value of all the other companies contributions back out.  AMAZING concept - cooperation for profit because it lowers each companies TCO.



Each company has less programmers, so they can pay them scrap because there is less need of them while most of the work is done for free by the community...
Interesting career for people who spent 5 years at university plus at least as much time working.
Project? Which project?
If there will ever be some bigger market you will see them beating each other for market shares, and because almost no money would be made from software itself they will have to enter in a differentiation market, which is something that leads to closed stuff rather than open...
Ask to any economy student how much collaboration is possible in such a market and you will see a :lol: answer.
They will have a more or less common base, but the most advanced custom features will be as closed as MS source, or even more because there would be no antitrust to force them at courtpoint to "share" their stuff.


when I say "All" software will be free I should qualify that as all essential software - operating systems, office suites, productivity tools, etc.  

Games will still cost $ (even if the software at the core is free, which doesn't have to be the case -- the content is not).


And what would pay the development for all this "essential software"?
You can milk only so much money from support, which is something much freer than open source in your vision...
Result: Most companies will hire someone to fix their problems (read install patches and reinstall apps) and your bloody costly company support would be pretty much in trouble.
If you want some proof go and ask to most linux based companies.


Each software firm will have some internal software they don't wish to release (security routines for banks, etc) and programmers will be needed there.


And software will grow closed again...




'around guys'? WTF does that mean?  our 'initiative'?  There are already millions of programmers on the bandwagon with us.  If you actually poked your head out of the microsoft community you will find most of the rest of the software community is extremely hostile to microsoft - and the hostility increases with "loftiness" of the person/group.  



More than that i heard people scared from the consequence of talking good about MS: a Denial Of Service attack.

The Best is Yet to Come

 

Offline aldo_14

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Quote
Originally posted by Kalfireth
Have you ever thought that typically people can't be insulted into seeing another point of view?

Just a thought...


It can be fun, though :)

The fundamental problem with this type of thread is that it gets very boring, very quickly.  But if you stop posting, it makes the other guy think he's won.

Hence the 'ariston effect'.

 

Offline Zarax

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Well, i'll let Kazan have the final word then...
It's Evolution against Revolution, and the latter usually appeals more regardless of the effectiveness...
The next decade will tell who is right, i'll just end saying that people is and will always be after money, and i'll rather be a professional programmer proud of the software i sell than being a support guy patching someone else work.
MS will eventually get into open source, as other businesses are doing, and will most likely continue to prosper regardless of these destructive threads...
If people spent their time telling MS what the problems with their software are instead of just keep blaming them we would have a much better final product.
Said that, it's getting later here and i have work to do tomorrow.
The Best is Yet to Come

 

Offline Kazan

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Zarax continues to dodge my questions

and is showing some inability to connect individual counterpoints into the big picture to to understand
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Offline Odyssey

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[color=cc9900]It strikes me that you have dabbled in Linux just to be able to say you have, Zarax. If you put a little more effort into it, you might start to actually enjoy it - there are plenty of programmes to replace what you 'lost', especially developer tools as development is one of the Linux cornerstones.

If programmers want to earn money on an open source base, they can do exactly the same as a Windows programmer. Keep source closed, and sell the product. There's nothing stopping a good programmer from doing that.

You also don't seem to realise that not everyone is working for money. Look beyond yourself for a moment. Look at almost everything Linux-related. Somebody created that, somebody lovingly crafted the nuances of how it works. Their reward? Recognition. Status. Happiness.

One thing that bolsters my view that you've only dabbled in Linux is the way you boldly ask "And what would pay the development for all this "essential software"?" Nobody, as it's already there. People can now upgrade it themselves if they want to improve it, and submit that to the community. It evolves from then on, and since people are adding to it to fix things and improve the experience, no money need go in.

I'm very surprised you're telling Kazan to go and ask Linux companies for proof that they're in trouble. Have you only heard of the ones in trouble, or have you also come across the ones with a business model that works? Again, how far have you gone into Linux, when all you're reciting is the media?

Why should anyone be afraid of the consequences of talking about a Microsoft DoS attack? I've never heard it. What I have heard is of people afraid to look at the Microsoft source code that was recently leaked, since it will damage their reputation and usefulness to potential employers. Add to that we're dealing with honest people here, who aren't tied to the traits money infers.

Why is open source a "Revolution"? The basis of such a system as Linux has been around longer than Windows, or indeed Microsoft. Neither are revolutions. Open source is most definitely stronger than Windows in the evolution department, however. Witness the speed at which bugs are fixed, the frequent updates, the progression of applications from nothing to something, from something to something even better.

I doubt Microsoft will enter open source. Well, not of their own free will anyway, since leaks happen. May I also point out that you are at once saying that open source companies will and are failing miserably, yet at the mention of Microsoft you turn the tables, saying if Microsoft went open source it would succeed. Your argument is questionable as fair, seeing as we all know perfectly well where your loyalties lie.

"If people spent their time telling Microsoft what the problems were"? Sorry, but don't they? Do you work in Microsoft Tech Support, or any branch of Microsoft dealing with incoming mail? They're no doubt flooded with improvements. Their business model, however, renders implementing the people's wishes a secondary concern behind the market share and profit of the business.

I'm also heading off to sleep. I hope that at some point you read this, and at least try to respond properly this time.[/color]
« Last Edit: February 22, 2004, 04:45:24 pm by 493 »

 

Offline aldo_14

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As an aside, Sun is in the process of suing Microsoft  for various IPR infringements anmd antitrust, particularly illegal modification of the JVM & Java compilers to make Java programs only run on Windows.  

This was after, of course, sun had already won a legal case vs microsoft for illegally bastardising the Java language

What is interesting, is that M$ were attempting to remove the key point of Java - cross-platform compatibility, the same thing that would allow Java apps to work on Linux, Os X, etc. Which aptly describes the cynicism of Microsofts business practices, and also illustrates them holding back the industry as a whole to maintian their monopoly.

 

Offline Fineus

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Quote
Originally posted by Odyssey
[color=cc9900]It strikes me that you have dabbled in Linux just to be able to say you have, Zarax. If you put a little more effort into it, you might start to actually enjoy it - there are plenty of programmes to replace what you 'lost', especially developer tools as development is one of the Linux cornerstones.
[/color]

I think this says something actually... who exactly is Linux and other OSs aimed at? Because it's certainly not as accessable as Windows - not in the useability sense but in the "how easy is it to get hold of, support for, advertising for, etc." sense. Linux could well be the greatest OS on the planet and have everything anyone could ever want. But it's all for nothing if nobody knows about it, especially if people have to put effort into it to enjoy it. Your average home or business user can pick Windows out of the box and know pretty much where they stand, and if they don't there's certainly a good chance that a neighbour, workmate or friend does know.

If I chucked Linux on my system for the first time and booted it up, I would have questions and need help. I wouldn't be able to get that support from anywhere but the internet at this stage. Going on the internet for support is typically a long drawn out process that often may not yield the ideal answer. When all an OS really is is a launch pad for your other applications etc that involve what you really want to do with a computer, do you want to spend time getting your OS sorted? Or do you want to be up and running as quickly as possible - playing with the application you wanted in the first place?

Option A may be better and more productive in the long term, but Option B holds most true for your common worker or home user who just wants to book a holiday on the net or compose a letter to their friend.

(Yes, I realise this may dance around what Kazan, Odyssey and Zarax have been discussing - but it's a point nonetheless).

 

Offline Kazan

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Hey thunder - go download a Knoppix ISO, burn the CD and boot up


it used to take a while to get linux up and running - now it takes exactly how long it takes to click your mouse a few times and wait for files to copy
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Offline Fineus

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Fair enough, I will :)

Untill such a time as I get a clue from this experience, please try and keep the thread clean - thanks!

 

Offline karajorma

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Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14
As an aside, Sun is in the process of suing Microsoft  for various IPR infringements anmd antitrust, particularly illegal modification of the JVM & Java compilers to make Java programs only run on Windows.  

This was after, of course, sun had already won a legal case vs microsoft for illegally bastardising the Java language

What is interesting, is that M$ were attempting to remove the key point of Java - cross-platform compatibility, the same thing that would allow Java apps to work on Linux, Os X, etc. Which aptly describes the cynicism of Microsofts business practices, and also illustrates them holding back the industry as a whole to maintian their monopoly.


 The reason why MS was scared of Java is because they were scared it could make the OS the computer is running redundant for a most tasks. Admittedly Java is nowhere near fast enough for that but back when Netscape had come along and completely dominated the internet MS got very scared that one day it might be. They saw a possible future where no one cared which OS was running on their machines because between the internet and Java most tasks care which OS they were running on.

Their response was to strangle Netscape by throwing money at the problem and neuter Java by creating bastard off shoots that would kill the cross-platform abilities of Java (which was pretty much it's main selling point!).

 This is a case of MS deliberately trying to screw over the general public and their competitors even when this means breaking the law and the contracts they sign. For all you rant and rave about how IBM want to return us to the days of thin clients it is in fact MS who have held back the pace of progress.

And don't even get me onto the subject of how Microsoft bullied Gateway 2000 into cancelling the work they were doing on the new Amiga.  That was one of the most innovative plans for computing I've ever heard and MS killed it stone dead.
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Offline Grey Wolf

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Offline 01010

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Quote
Originally posted by karajorma



And don't even get me onto the subject of how Microsoft bullied Gateway 2000 into cancelling the work they were doing on the new Amiga.  That was one of the most innovative plans for computing I've ever heard and MS killed it stone dead.


Bastards.
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Offline Kamikaze

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Quote
Originally posted by Grey Wolf 2009
Bets on how long before MS makes a strange NT/Linux hybrid.


Not possible, license issues. :p
Science alone of all the subjects contains within itself the lesson of the danger of belief in the infallibility of the greatest teachers in the preceding generation . . .Learn from science that you must doubt the experts. As a matter of fact, I can also define science another way: Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts. - Richard Feynman

 

Offline Kazan

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I overlooked him ranting about thin clients

I just lost what little remaining respect i had for Zarax


I ASK AGAIN - WHAT FIELD ARE YOU TRAINED IN? MIS? ARE YOU AN MCSE?
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Offline karajorma

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Originally posted by 01010
Bastards.


Doesn't even begin to cover my level of hatred for them. I was actually at the WOA show where Jim Collas showed us what they had planned. It was pretty amazing even if only half of what they planned was likely to happen. Back then they were partered with QNX. The idea was that QNX would build a stable kernal for them and work out the low level stuff and Amiga Inc would build the desktop part of the OS.

A lot of QNX's stuff ended up going into Neutrino but without the desktop layer it got largely ignored. :(  Okay it wouldn't be open source but it would have pissed on every proprietary OS from a great height.
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Offline mikhael

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I see Zarax and Kazan going back and forth and back and forth. Kaz is generally right, but he's not doing such a great job at the diplomacy.

Look, Linux and other open source projects are free. They don't cost the user anything. What's more, generally, they come with free tech support in the form of mailing lists, message boards etc. There's literally thousands of websites full of howto's and FAQs and Wikis and the like. All it takes is a small amount of effort. Heck, if you're really curious, ask a techie. He or she can probably point you in the right direction. I'll apologize in advance for those of us, who (like me at times) are short tempered and asocial and undiplomatic.

They're also free in that you get the source for any program you use, meaning that you get to do whatever you want with the code and the program, including making it do what you, personally want. Do you have to? No. You can use all that software stock, just the way it is and you won't miss a thing. Zarax is frightened of this idea though. He predicts in the future that Linux will be controlled by corporations and be closed source and we'll be back where we are now.

There's just one problem: The cat is out of the bag. The source code is in the wild. I have all the source for FreeBSD sitting on a CD right here. You know what? Microsoft could snatch up FreeBSD, close the source and declare WindowsBSD to be the new paradigm. What exactly would that mean to me or any other BSD user? Exactly nothing. All we have to do is take the source code we have, and work from that. This is a process called 'forking'. As long as we have the code, no matter what IBM or Redhat or Mandrake or SuSE or Microsoft do, we'll still have our OS. We'll still have the tens of thousands of software programs for our OS. They cannot take it away. They can only fork their own versions. We'll still have ours. We'll still have the real deal.

Someone (Zarax or Kazan) mentioned that some people might not want to share their source code. Guess what: you don't have to if you don't want to. There's always the LGPL, if you feel like you need the GPL or the BSD license. You don't have to give away your source code if you really feel that strongly. Of course, this is highly discouraged because its actually got more disadvantages than advantages. Closed source depends on obscurity for security, for example. You have to hope that, since they can't see your code, no one will be able to exploit its flaws. In the history of software, we've seen that this is a pretty foolish way to handle software. We have but to look at the depth and breadth of Microsoft's security deficits to see that this model is fundamentally broken. On the other hand, we can look to OpenBSD and its history for why Open Source is a good way to go. They've only had ONE remotely exploitable root-level compromise in the entire history of the project--a project that's the better part of ten years old. No other organisation producing an operating system in the history of the Earth has a track record as clean as OpenBSD. Windows, for example, had more security patches issued last year than OpenBSD has had in the history of the project.

People continue to talk about compatibility and applications as if they were still a going concern. The fact of the matter is that they are not. With products such as WineX and WINE, *nix users can run those precious Microsoft Office apps and Unreal Tournament and even Freespace on *nix.

Ease of use: I hate to break it to you, but Windows isn't easy to use. My mother--and most likely yours--couldn't install a program on her own if her life depended on it. Installing the OS? Give it up. These are not metrics for determining the transition. The real metric is how easy the PROGRAMS are to use. I have news for you, *nix people and Windows people: there's no difference between the two platforms except cosmetics. If I were to sit my mother or father or sister down in front of a *nix machine running Mozilla, they'd have no problems getting their email and surfing the web. If I showed them StarOffice, Koffice, or OpenOffice.org, they'd be able to do everything they do in Microsoft Office--and they'd be asking me exactly the same questions they'd ask me if it was a Windows box. The user experience isn't terribly distinct in these environments. If it were, it wouldn't be so easy to make a *nix box masquerade as a Windows box and vice versa.

Oh, and back off the MCSEs, Kaz. I'm one of them. Of course, I earned my MCSE through, oh, you know, six years of administering WindowsNT domains. I didn't go through the happy slappy boot camp certification mills that most of the paper certificates went through. ;)
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