[Bobboau]

"Windows, for example, had more security patches issued last year than OpenBSD has had in the history of the project."

actualy, they've probly had more this afternoon

[Kazan]

mikhael: but you have skills _BEYOND_ your MCSE

[Stealth]

well since you guys have taken the discussion (argument) to the next level, i won't get involved in it, but i would like to respond to something mikhael said, i assume he was referring to my posts i made earlier:

Ease of use: I hate to break it to you, but Windows isn't easy to use. My mother--and most likely yours--couldn't install a program on her own if her life depended on it. Installing the OS? Give it up. These are not metrics for determining the transition. The real metric is how easy the PROGRAMS are to use.

But mikhael, honestly, you have to admit, that if you compare Windows, to, let's say, the uber-stable Linux, Windows is easier to use.  I never said it was easier to install, but for the average user (a person who doesn't know how to program, who doesn't need to know anything other than how to check his email, surf the net, and occasionally play a game of solitaire), Windows IS the dominant product, i'll even say it beats out Linux, because it does, it's an easy GUI where you point and click... I can't see grandma, and most of the kids in school typing in command line to open programs and stuff.  Now sure you say "my mother -and most likely yours -- couldn't install a program on her own if her life depended on it"... that's true, but could she install a Linux module?  most likely not.  And someone mentioned security?  Yeah sure XP (particularly) has many security flaws, but for the average user, who gives a damn.  I'd take non-Windows operating systems myself, but i'll bet... i'll bet, that everyone so far that posted in this thread, posted from a machine that was running some version of Windows, myself included.

You really can't argue it.  Windows is the dominant operating system, simply because of its GUI appeal, ease of use, etc.  For advanced users, such as Kazan, mikhael, myself, etc. who realize the flaws and limitations of using any form of Windows, we use other operating systems, some of which Kazan mentioned... and find ways of doing things (such as play Freespace? ) within it, even though it may not be as easy as popping a CD in the drive and double clicking an icon on the desktop... but unfortunately that's the way the computer-illiterate world works... People don't care about security flaws or program limitations, they just want it to be simple, and easy, and familiar, which is why Windows and Mac OS are so popular.  i dunno, it's just my opinion.  I really have no expectations of the whole world suddenly switching from Windows to Linux (regardless of how good that would be for so many reasons), because it's not going to happen.

[Kamikaze]

How can you say anything about ease of use when you don't use Linux? Also, since when was Mandrake not point and click? Redhat? Ark Linux? Suse? Has there been some CLI revolt that I'm not aware of?

It's stubborness and familarity, that's it.

[karajorma]

The simple fact is that Windows ease of use is a complete lie. Sit down two complete novice users. Teach one Windows and one Linux. After 5 minutes the Windows user would probably be more advanced because you'd have to explain concepts like logging in as a user or as root to the Linux user.
 By about a day or two however the Linux user would be able to do everything the windows user could.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by karajorma
The simple fact is that Windows ease of use is a complete lie. Sit down two complete novice users. Teach one Windows and one Linux. After 5 minutes the Windows user would probably be more advanced because you'd have to explain concepts like logging in as a user or as root to the Linux user.
 By about a day or two however the Linux user would be able to do everything the windows user could.

I'd be willing to bet the Lniux user would also have a lot better understanding of what was going on, too..... windows is only user friendly until something goes wrong, at which points is equally as obscure as Unix to find the cause.

Oh, and on the topic of qualifications - I've always held the opinion that a qualification isn't really worth that much in terms of proving ability.... it's really proof of the ability to learn and understand concepts - it's the actual experience that counts in the real world (which is, natch, probably the thing I most lack).

and I say that despite the risk of denigrating my own results / degree.

[Fineus]

Explain again why Windows ease of use is a lie? It might not be the easiest to use out there (my test of Knoppix is still pending, download is at 50pc) but it seems everything is explained.

Put two computer novices together, one with Linux and one with Windows, and if the guy with Linux runs into trouble - I'm willing to bet he'll have a tougher time finding help to solve his problems. As I said earlier it seems that everyone in my area (where I live) runs a Windows system, and so if any of them run into trouble they ask me or someone else near them. If I started running Linux only right now I'd have to come onto the internet to get any support - because I have no knowlege of it myself and nobody I know does either.

Thats the kind of insecurity that home / light users want to avoid.

Power users are another matter entirely - I may well find myself loving Knoppix because of what it lets me that Windows doesn't. However I didn't become a user who wants added control overnight - it took years of computer use for me to need the added control of setting up my BIOS the way I wanted it. Changing Windows boot up settings and so on. If a first-time user came to you and asked about changing their startup settings - I don't think I'd be the only one who'd tell them not to even touch anything.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by Kalfireth
Explain again why Windows ease of use is a lie? It might not be the easiest to use out there (my test of Knoppix is still pending, download is at 50pc) but it seems everything is explained.

Put two computer novices together, one with Linux and one with Windows, and if the guy with Linux runs into trouble - I'm willing to bet he'll have a tougher time finding help to solve his problems. As I said earlier it seems that everyone in my area (where I live) runs a Windows system, and so if any of them run into trouble they ask me or someone else near them. If I started running Linux only right now I'd have to come onto the internet to get any support - because I have no knowlege of it myself and nobody I know does either.

That's a poor arguement though. It's like saying that a bus is easier to drive than a car because all my friends are bus drivers.

Linux is intrinsically no harder to use than windows.  Sure it might take you a little longer to find a tech in the area but that doesn't change how hard the OS is to actually use.  
Besides the arguement is intriniscally wrong. Yes it's easier to find someone who knows a little bit about windows but if you have a serious problem the number of people who understand the OS down to the guts is no doubt higher for Linux because most OS Guru's tend to use Unix in preference to windows.
 
If you end up with a ticky problem with windows you are unlikely to end up having it resolved. More likely you'll just be told to back up and reinstall the entire OS.
 If that was a valid support statement for Linux then you'll probably find that the ease of use of Linux would be viewed as being just as good as for windows

[Kazan]

you don't have to drop to the command line to run your GUI apps *wallops* Stealth

[Fineus]

Originally posted by karajorma


That's a poor arguement though. It's like saying that a bus is easier to drive than a car because all my friends are bus drivers.

Linux is intrinsically no harder to use than windows.  Sure it might take you a little longer to find a tech in the area but that doesn't change how hard the OS is to actually use.  

So what you're now saying is that Linux is no harder to use than Windows? Quite a change from your "Windows ease of use is a lie" statement earlier... Seems there's something to my arguement after all.

[Kazan]

the "Windows ease of use" is a lie in that it's merely a perception, and opinion, and a biased one at that.


Have you tried our your Knoppix disk yet?

[Fineus]

As a matter of fact I'm posting this message from it! See, I do give things a go

By the way:

The "Windows ease of use" is a lie in that it's merely a perception, and opinion, and a biased one at that.

While that's true - it's no more true than the statement that Linux is easy to use, or that Windows is hard to use. It's all a perception - it's all a lie. It all depends on who you are, what you do and what you know.

In a way... now that I think about it, it kinda makes this conversation pointless. Anyhow - I'm going to press on with my tinking with Knoppix. As an aside, whats the difference between Knoppix and Linux Redhat or any other edition?

[Setekh]

A big part (for many, in the scheme of things it can be pretty insignificant) is the GUI. Installing packages will run slightly different, and different packages will be available.

[Kazan]

Kalfireth: very minor differences -- for example Knoppix gives you that configuration menu that automatically sudo's to root without asking you the password

Red hat has a graphical boot screen (after the initial quick dump of kernel messages -- boot screen comes up when it goes to sysV init) and then the GUI has the blue curve theme -- and all the config applets ask for the root password, etc.

[Fineus]

Fair enough, what's the performance like? Things seemed "alright" considering it was loading from a CD tray, buy much slower than my Windows install (not suprised, Windows is on the HD after all).

I will say one thing, I love the ability to hide the task bar and switch between "desktops".

[Kazan]

Boot time depends on a lot of things - what services are set to run (I highly recommend you go into the services manage and turn off anything useless when you get a hd install)

the 2.6 kernel has performance boosts of immense proportions so you may want to wait till the end of march and Fedora Core 2 comes out to do any installing.


I routinely get higher frame rates in UT in linux than under windows, etc.  

Also when one program seg faults (GPFs) it takes down that process -- not the entire computer. -- and set faults are generally rare

[karajorma]

Originally posted by Kalfireth
So what you're now saying is that Linux is no harder to use than Windows? Quite a change from your "Windows ease of use is a lie" statement earlier... Seems there's something to my arguement after all.

I didn't say that windows was harder to use than linux. That's obviously nonsense.  
 What I was saying is that Windows having an ease of use advantage over linux is a lie (perpetuated by MS mostly). If you've never used a computer before and someone sat you down and taught you how to use both operating systems you'd find Linux is no more difficult to learn than Windows.

[Stealth]

Originally posted by Kamikaze
How can you say anything about ease of use when you don't use Linux?  

ummm excuse me, just because i don't have Linux installed on this computer doesn't mean i haven't used it, or don't know how to use it.  i'm sure the computer you're on at the moment doesn't have Linux installed either, and even if it does, i'm sure i've used linux as much, if not more thanyou

[aldo_14]

In my experience, there is conceptually no difference between running programs in,  for example, Solaris and Windows.  any sort of useful innovation in Windows or another commercial OS would soon find its way into some version of Linux anyways - and vice versa.

It's still basically a windowed WYSIWYG interface....at least insofar as the 'average' user is concerned.

[Martinus]

[color=66ff00]You know why I've never liked linux; I know this is a fairly shallow thing but I've just never been able to make it look attractive. I find a computer to be much more satisfying if the experience has asthetic, windows is configurable enough to let me do almost everything I need with little effort. There are skins for almost everything.

I'm sure you'll probably not understand this point of view kazan as I see you're a very practical person but it's something that I find very important.
Ultimately though my rig is built for gaming, why dual boot with linux when I can use open office, firefox, trillian (Which I'm aware works perfectly under winex) and quickly switch to any game I choose in the intervals between real work?

It just works for me.
Lazy? Perhaps. Happy? Definetly.
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