Poll

Which higher power do you worship?

God and/or Jesus
29 (32.2%)
Allah
2 (2.2%)
Shiva, Vishnu and et al
0 (0%)
Buddah (doesn't really count as worship, I know)
5 (5.6%)
The State (communist/nazi idea IIRC)
0 (0%)
Science
6 (6.7%)
The Almighty Dollar
2 (2.2%)
I don't worship ANY invisible dude(s) in the sky - AKA atheist/agnostic
38 (42.2%)
Bill Gates
2 (2.2%)
Other
6 (6.7%)

Total Members Voted: 88

Voting closed: February 26, 2004, 10:54:00 am

Author Topic: Religion in the modern world  (Read 77757 times)

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Offline Kazan

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Quote
Originally posted by icespeed
but i dont understand where the lenses come in.

(i still think evolution is a stupid idea, but hey, stupider ideas have occurred in reality.)


how is it a stupid idea? (especially since microevolution is a proven fact and every time someone tries to honestly refute it they end up eating crow by stumbling over evidence for microevolution glaring them in the face)


Microevolution is this

Given
A) Mutations occur [we all know this is true]


A can have three effects
A1) Helps the indvidual survive
A2) Has no effect on the individual's survival
A3) Harms the individuals survival

Each of these has certain properties - the important ones are

A1) A individual that is healthier, eats more, is higher on the social order, et cetera breeds more - his/her offspring receive this gene and in term have that property and the gene spreads

A2) the gene may spread or may not spread as it has no effect on the individual's survival -- it will not spread as fast as a mutation in case A1

A3) This is the exact opposite of A1, if a gene harms the individual it is less likely to breed, et cetera
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Offline icespeed

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Bobboau: okay, some creatures respond to the presence of light through photosensitive areas. worms are a good start.

kazan: how often will microevolution through up a non-injurious mutation? and how often will that mutation survive to become the entire species? it's a question of probability.

edit: gtg, bbl to continue this most fascinating discussion...
« Last Edit: March 01, 2004, 10:46:28 pm by 220 »
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Offline Kazan

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icespeed: arguing probabilities is pointless for many reasons A) multiple mutations can crop up at once in different individuals not related and not geographically close to each other, C) a mutation doesn't have to spread to the entire species and often doesn't [this is how one species eventually becomes two]

et cetera

if you think something that scientists support is impossible because of your musings on the propbabilities - you're almost gauranteed to be the one who's wrong
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Offline Bobboau

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ok I know this is going to end up three pages off from were it was requested, but here it goes, sorry in advance for the painfull spelling and gramer, I was typeing as fast as posable as to not be five pages behind.

important concept to remember the steps I describe do not happen quite as sequentaly as I describe them, many diferent things are going on at the same time

ok, so we have a worm, it has a bunch of light sensitive nerve endings on it's body, most likely to tell it if it needs to burrow and get out of the sun,  
some of these worms have a slightly more well developed nervus system allowing them to  tell wich way the light is comeing from, and they run in the opposite direction so they don't dry out and die, more of them survive than the ones with a (slightly) less developed utilisation of there senses, and over generations the speciese as a whole gets to understand were the light is comeing from better, at the same time the patturns of the nervs on the outside of there boddies is going from the origonal random distribution (becase all it did origonaly was tell them that there was light not were it's comeing from) to a more organised paturn, this is happening becase the more ordered nerv paturns are better at telling were light is comeing from than the random ones, worms that have patches of there skin covered with ever more precise paturns emerge (becase as I said the ones with less organised nervs can't run from the nasty life crushing light as well) in addition they are getting more of these nerves as haveing more of them gives them a larger sampleing of data for there simple brain like organs to determine were not to be, after a while some worms have there nerve endings organised to such an extent, and they have so many of them and they are so sensitive they not only can tell were light is comething from but also were the lack of light is comeing from (i.e. they can tell the diference between light and dark, at this point they have very primitive blurry innefective eyes, a step below the eyes insects have). as all these physical changes are happening on the outer skin of the worm inside it's nervus system evolution is at work, haveing more and more organised nerves isn't going to do you any good if you'r brain doesn't know what to do with the information it's getting. the first thing, and most important still, to evolve is a nervus system capable of understanding the information it's getting, the worms with a nervus system more apt at identifying light or later darkness are the worms that survive better, on top of that better organiseation and resolution give this system more information to work with. so as it's basic psudo mind becomes better able to cope with it's eye like colection of nerve arrays the worms with better more compact light sensitive nerves are able to, with ever more increased ability, identify a basic blurry world around them. this continues untill we have something like a simple eye.

now on to the fluff (lenses and muscles and stuff)
at this point it becomes he (though 'he' doesn't quite apply to worms) with the best eyes wins. not only do better eyes alow you to run from light but they have reached the point were the combind physical structure and internal hardwireing alow them to sence movement and general blurry shapes, alowing them to identify preditors (once again, those who don't have featuers that go with this trend are now also eaten more oftine). the 'eyes' have become an important asset to the worms, so much so that damage to the nerves means a major disadvantage, as a result cleare protective coverings have begun to develop, worms with thicker coverings have more well defented eyes, are less likely to lose these eyes, are less likely to be eaten or dry out. the coverings get thicker and thicker untill the point at witch they start to bend and focus the light. quite by accedent the worms defenceinve nerve coverings have developed into lenses, worms with a brain more able to use the sharper immages this allows are able to escape preditors and find shelter at a drasticly improved level, and  of these the ones with the best formed lenses are able to see the best. muscles that origonaly were there simply to move skin  and remained there as the lenses formed are now conected to places were they can change the shape of the lens, allowing some worms improved vission (wich amounts to improved surviveability, and more offspring) other mmuscles move the entier structure, worms that have mucles (wich remember were there to move skin and allow them to rithe about origonaly, but becase the skin to wich they were atached is now eye material there function has diferent effects) better able to controle the shape of the lens and the direction upon wich the whole structure is pointed have better surviveability. this trend continues untill the eye becomes fairly seperated from the rest of the skin it was once a part of. sinking into the body somewhat and developing a retractable covering make it better defended, and the shape becomes more spherical, the shape changes to what ever best suits it's function untill it becomes what you would call an eye.

there you now have worms with eyes
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Offline Bobboau

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"how often will microevolution through up a non-injurious mutation?"
quite oftine

though not nearly as oftine as the ones that cause problems

non-injurious, meaning it doesn't have any bad effect at all, would almost certanly have a good effect (it's hard for a mutation to be  _totaly_ nutral) this good effect would probly help anything with it survive, there for the mutation would survive and spred faster than those without it, eventualy becomeing present in all members of the population (if the mutation occured in a population seperated from others of it's own kind it would not spred outside the isolated population) liveing in the environment to wich the mutation is advantagus.
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Offline Su-tehp

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With all the people here providing proof and theories of evolution, maybe we'll be able to prove to everyone here that creation is a bunch of malarkey, and the creationists here will realize that creationism is simply not science at all. ;7

Hope springs eternal. :D
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Offline Bobboau

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yeah, that'll happen :nod:
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Offline aldo_14

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Quote
Originally posted by Stryke 9

What I don't get is how the dinosaurs grew wings. If you've ever seen the pictures of some of the things between dinosaur and bird, they're just wierd, and they've got what looks like this totally unnecessary flap of skin...


Yeah, but they made those piccys up, really.... IIRC it's an utter bugger to find reliable skin impressions of dinosaurs (I think there's a few from the Hadrosaurs) firsly, and secondly the first flying dinosaurs / birds would have had a fragile bone structure & thus be less likely to fossilize intact.

I think one of the key bird-dino skeletons was debunked,too... not sure if it was an Aerchyopterix, but I remember it originating from China.  Not that it really matters in this case....

Um, oh yeah.  Small dinosaurs learned to glide because it'd give them an advantage in terms of speed, I think - y'know, for catching insects and escaping predators.

This is kind of what i meant about the unsolved areas of evolution, BTW - the processes that, for example, not only give an animal the ability to glide, but also the behavioural instincts to use that ability.....  I think that area is one that's very difficult to explore - the whole self-crystallizing behaviour type thing.  Because it's obviously veyr hard to understand an animals thought processes anyways, never mind when they're fossilized.

(god damn...can;t remember any dino names nowadays)

 

Offline TrashMan

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Science can NEVER explain all...

There are thing it just CAN'T and won't be able to (even in a million Years) to explain...Like how did the universe starrt..

Sure...they have some crappy theories that have more holes in them than swiss chesse...and they made them up only so they could say something, but the truth is ..and the scentist admitt this, that they can't explain it...

For you others I don't know, but I see proof around me that God exists...everywhere.. The unoiveres is too big, too beautifull, too complex, yet at the same thime so well ordered, that it cannot be the product of pure chance...
Allso, you ask proff for the existence of GOd, yet you take for granted some things that you cannot prove (like love)..
There is no way you can proove to me that you love something...science can't..yet you still belive in it..
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Offline Kazan

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trashman: "science can NEVER explain all" justify that statement


"more holes than swiss cheese" justify that statement

"proof around me that God exists" justify that statement (the universe is NOT complex, what is it with you people - youi ascribe invalid attributes to the universe just so you can run to your litttle deity for answer)

youi can actually prove love - that arguments been dumb and dead for years
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Offline karajorma

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Quote
Originally posted by Setekh
Abiogenesis. That's what I'm interested in. I have some reading to do... can you point to any good sources, Kaz?


I HIGHLY reccomend anyone who wants to talk about evolution reads The Selfish Gene first.

The sequel The Blind Watchmaker explains where the eye comes from as well as other similar puzzles in evolution but it's much harder going if you haven't read the first book.
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Offline Kazan

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kara

Abiogenesis != evolution
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Offline karajorma

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Quote
Originally posted by Kazan
kara

Abiogenesis != evolution


Read the books. Not only do they cover two competing theories for abiogenesis (Primordial soup and Cairn Smith's crystals theory) they also cover other things that the anti-evolutionists have trouble with.
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Offline Ghostavo

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Science makes up theories until you can have proof that it does or doesn't happen that way.

Religion makes something up and if something doesn't seem right they either try to maintain there position or change a bit of the dogma they follow.

So if you are complaining about theories with "more holes than swiss cheese" I suggest you revise whatever religion you follow (not insulting, just giving a suggestion).
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Offline Kazan

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ghostavo: science generates theories off observation, when a new observation comes along that contradicts the theory the theory is either tossed out and replaced, or it is revised
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Offline Ghostavo

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It's kind of what I wanted to say... sorry if it came out wrongly said
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Offline aldo_14

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Here's an interesting question - how would you know if science had answered everything?

And what would the consequence be?

 

Offline Ghostavo

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If there aren't any more questions to be asked, which is impossible...

As for consequences... you would know the fate of the universe itself, it's past, present and future history... kind of wierd don't you think? :D
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Offline aldo_14

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Quote
Originally posted by Ghostavo
If there aren't any more questions to be asked, which is impossible...

As for consequences... you would know the fate of the universe itself, it's past, present and future history... kind of wierd don't you think? :D


Well, that's the thing y'see - how can you tell if all the questions have been asked?

mind-boggling, innit?

 

Offline karajorma

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Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14
Here's an interesting question - how would you know if science had answered everything?


Scientists would get laid more than rock stars :D Not to mention that they'd live in giant ivory towers heated by the dead bodies of grant approval committe members
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