[Shrike]

I'm the only one who voted for the Invisible Hand.  I'm a bit surprised, but not too.

[Rictor]

Quick question for the Christians here.

If God is omniscient and he knows the mind of every man, why the need for rituals and so forth. I mean, if you lead a good, honest, pious live, caring for and giving to others and all that, why does it matter if you physically step into a building every Sunday or if youhave pre-marital sex.

I mean, is not the intent of the law, His law, more important than the letter of it?

[Grey Wolf]

Originally posted by Sandwich
If you truly think so, then you do not understand the basic tenets of said faiths. Quick example: inscribed around the inside of the Dome of the Rock, one of Islam's holy shrines, is (in Arabic) "There is no God but Allah, and He has no son."

Direct and irreconcilable contradiction to Christianity. Anyone who thinks that the God of the Bible is the same as Allah is either misinformed, blind, or stupid - no offense to you, GW, since I trust you were misinformed.

Missed that line right there. Is that an actual quote from the Koran, or is it just written on the Dome of the Rock? Anyway, I was mainly working off the fact that both Christianity and Islam are both based on the basic teachings of Judaism, and basing my argument off of that.

If the belief that Allah does not have a son is actually from the Koran, and if they continue to believe in the concept of a Messiah from Judaism, who is their Messiah?

EDIT: NM, found the answer to my last question. Rather odd answer, too. This is exactly what I found from my quick search: "In likeness to the Christian Bible, the Koran describes Jesus as a virgin-born, miracle-working Messiah, and also identifies Him as “holy” or “faultless.” Unlike the Christian Bible, however, the Koran forbids worshiping Jesus as God. Muhammad taught that Jesus was no more than God’s messenger, and that God does not have a Son."  Which, if I remember correctly, was basically the same viewpoint as a group of Christian heretics known as the Gnostics (other than the lack of a Son of God), who were present in the early Christian church of about the same time as the writing of the Koran. Interesting....

[diamondgeezer]

Originally posted by Grey Wolf 2009
Which, if I remember correctly, was basically the same viewpoint as a group of Christian heretics known as the Gnostics

My expertise with ancient language is a little hazy but 'gnostic' comes from the same stem as 'knowldge' and indeed 'wisdom', IIRC

[Grey Wolf]

Yeah, but the group of Christians I'm talking about were a bit wierd. They thought there were two Jesuses, one who was the one who's normally thought about, and another who was the one who was actually the Son of God and worked through the first. One of the old religious councils, maybe the Council of Nicea (not sure which), basically outlawed the entire sect.

[icespeed]

Okay, I skipped a bit of this thread, so this might be irrelevant or repetitive.

It's rather frustrating to have people label Christians as intolerant of other people's beliefs. This is not true. They use 'tolerance' to mean 'acceptance'. 'Tolerance' means to not go around chopping people's heads off because they don't believe in what you believe, (cf Crusades, Inquisition, etc etc) Christians try to spread the Gospel because we believe that other people we suffer if we don't. The point of a religion is that it's true and right, not that it suits us or that it's convenient.  
The other thing. Yeah, the Church has a pretty dodgy history. No one's denying it. But people assume that Christians are all the same people, and what's more, that they're super human. This is not true. Christians, in this world, are still sinful. Just like everyone else in the world. The only difference being that we believe that Jesus substituted our deaths for his, so that we won't be punished. So when people say that they don't believe in Christ because the Christians are so annoying or hypocritical, well, that's judging the belief by the believers. It's quite sad, really.
(oh yeah. Also, just because Christ died for us, does not mean we have the right to go and still be sinful. That's just- stupid. The reason we're still sinful is because we're weak and we're human.)

Anyway, that's my rant.

[Stryke 9]

If the belief failed to make the believers any more enlightened than anyone less (or, in fact, a fair deal less, as may well be the case with monotheistic religions), that's a perfectly reasonable attitude to take.

[icespeed]

no, its an intolerant attitude to take. people accuse Christians of being intolerant and then refuse to listen to Christianity. What's with that?

(this is not a direct accusation, i'm just being generally annoyed)

[Setekh]

Originally posted by diamondgeezer
Another quick question for Mr Sarnie: OK, so you got an impressive string of coincidences going there with the whole Israeli prohpecy thing. But Nostradamus came up with some pretty nifty predictions as well. Doesn't make him the second comming, does it?

The difference between Nostradamus and the Bible with regard to predictions is specificity. I'd be greatly obliged if you went and found a copy of Nostradamus' predictions, and see how specific/vague they are. I'd be more than willing to do the same for the predictions that Sandwich is referring to. My understanding is that Nostradamus' predictions are all very vague, a bit like horoscopes, that could apply to a huge range of situations. Like: "tomorrow, you will meet challenges!" I wouldn't be much of a prophet if I told you that.

[Stryke 9]

Um, I think basically everyone's "listened to Christianity" at some point. The bible's friggin' everywhere, at least in the US, to the point where you basically can't grow up without knowing most of its plot and premise; the radio's clogged with fat men preaching hate for the world based on Old Testament passages; the major cities all have religious-themed demonstrations fairly regularly (used to be one after every abortion clinic bombing, now they've slowed up)... it'd basically be impossible to ignore it every second of your life. Perhaps the problem is more that people listen to the messages Christianity these days has to say, and they don't like them. Like it or not, that's the faith in the modern era. I'd recommend doing something about it if you don't want things to stay that way, starting with shutting up the spiteful monsters or adding a voice that isn't totally insane to the general mass.

[Setekh]

Oh yeah, I'll admit to that. I think there's hardly a single person here on HLP who doesn't possess a basic understanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ (if inaccurate in places, eg. Jesus' death was merely physical). Besides that, I like to think my voice isn't totally insane, especially within the perspective of the general mass.

But you know, you're absolutely right. There's a lot of noise out there, y'know? It's irritating sometimes, but it's the background for what I say nonetheless. Whatever impact happens, happens.

[Stryke 9]

On the other hand, I don't hear you on the news, Steak.

I'm perfectly aware that most Christians are absolutely sane. At least, most of the ones I know are. But there's not a shred of that sanity in the ones you hear giving speeces on TV or forming public policy, and that's where it matters.

[TheCelestialOne]

Basically my opinion of those not too sane Christians that Stryke was taking about:

Stop using Jesus as an excuse for being a narrow-minded, bigoted asshole.

[Nuke]

i said i was resigning but this thread killed all my braincells that are used for judgment.

people who take religon too seriously can easily become dangerous. suicide cults and terrorists to name a couple. i personally think that people in general require some sort of universal abstraction layer to simplify an otherwise complex environment. once the human brain starts soking up information it pretty much records everything you sense and do. eventually there is so much information up there that it becomes overwealming and difficult to sort out. religon (and the same can be said for science) provides a way for simplification of that information, so that it can be better applied to survival (life's main purpose). once mere survival becomes tediously boring a person begins to broden their perspectives and begins to contemplate their existance. the concept of god or some other idea may be picked up on. whatever idea one picks up as their means of abstracting reality doesnt matter, what matters is that it streamlines your thoughts and gives you a fixed perspective to essintially live by. withought a fixed perspective one would easily get confused by the world to the point where they would not be able to achieve lifes primary goal, survival. this not only explains the existance of religon but its success as well.

people who are too religous tend to never vary their perspective and thus creates conflict. it could be a simple dislike of people who dont think like you or running your 747 into the white house.

[Sandwich]

I just got back from SUNDAY CHURCH (*gasp*!!!), as well as hanging out with my friends afterwards downtown. WHile we were sitting outside eating schawarma on Ben Yehuda (open-air pedestrian mall), this group of people - maybe 4 to 6, I didn't count - walks down the street. One of them had a big wooden cross on his shoulder (complete with a pair of wheels on the end for easy transportation).

They weren't making a fuss or anything, just walking along slowly, stopping to talk with whoever came up to them, etc. But seeing that big wooden cross blatantly paraded around the center of Jerusalem, I couldn't help but think how offensive those people were being to the Jews around them. Heck, I was offended - not by the cross, but by the insensitivity of those people.

We have more than our share of religious whackos in Jerusalem - it's even been diagnosed as a medical phenomenon: Jerusalem Syndrome. But I didn't get any impression of these people that they were "whacko". They seemd to be perfectly sane (well, as sane as someone carrying a 12-foot wooden cross around Jerusalem can be) people, who were just insensitive as heck.

Thankfully, Jerusalem's multitudes are relatively accustomed to such unusual events, and didn't appear to react too adversely. But still....

[Blaise Russel]

Originally posted by Nuke
people who are too religous tend to never vary their perspective and thus creates conflict. it could be a simple dislike of people who dont think like you or running your 747 into the white house.

This applies to any ideology, of course. Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia, for example. It's a very human trait, sad to say.

[Goober5000]

Originally posted by Sandwich
Heck, I was offended - not by the cross, but by the insensitivity of those people.

Interesting.  If I saw someone doing that in America, I'd be impressed by their openness (although the convenient wheels might lower my opinion a bit ).  I guess it would be different in Jewish culture -- so many centuries of persecution and prejudice creating barriers.

[Shrike]

Originally posted by Sandwich
stuff

Isn't Jerusalem also a christian 'holy location'?  And if so, what's wrong with walking about with a 12-foot cross?

Other than the tackyness of it all.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by Sandwich
I just got back from SUNDAY CHURCH (*gasp*!!!), as well as hanging out with my friends afterwards downtown. WHile we were sitting outside eating schawarma on Ben Yehuda (open-air pedestrian mall), this group of people - maybe 4 to 6, I didn't count - walks down the street. One of them had a big wooden cross on his shoulder (complete with a pair of wheels on the end for easy transportation).

You should have knocked the wheels off and nailed him to it. Lets see how commited he is to this Jesus impression

[Nuke]

i saw such a spectical at a metallica concert awhilt back. they had an 8 foor cross (us americans are lazy) it the parking lot and after a night of moshing and that death rage that accompanies heavy metal concerts. it made me want to rally all the satanic freaks to do something about it. i didnt pay money to get harrassed in the parking lot by some psyco religous cult. the fact that they consider the metal subculture evil really pissed me off. last i recall, james hetfield is a devout christian.