I have many words to say but I shall only say a few.
Originally posted by Nuke
i find the whole thing about jesus disturbing. he suposidly died for our sins which to us seems like a big sacrifice. from a godly persective, our world is mearly a sub-universe and death is merely a transition from one universe to another (in jesus's case it was from our world to heaven). with that in mind i dont consider that a true sacrifice (other than the fact that it probibly hurt like hell). essintially jesus went home to his daddy. i would hace been much more convinced if, say, jesus went to hell for our sins.
This is a crucial misunderstanding. First, let's define a few things.
Death - this can be on many levels. I identify three main ones:
1. Death of a part of ourselves, mentally or emotionally. People don't usually use the word death to refer to this, but it is quite sensible to sometimes say that a part of us has died (eg. my sister's love for dogs, after she was bitten really badly by one).
2. Physical death. This is the most common definition of death. The physical body, which we can prod with sticks, stops functioning.
3. Spiritual death. This is a little wierder. You cannot prod the spirit with sticks. Also, it seems that most people define spiritual death as an actual continuation of the spirit in a state of pain (a la hell), as opposed to spiritual annihiliation, whereby the spirit ceases to exist.
Hell - (as per Christian definition, of course) the complete absence of God and all his benefits, and the 'place' you are when you experience spiritual death (#3 above).
Now, when you talk about Jesus dying, you seem to be referring to physical death (#2), and it would have been far more convincing had he actually been sentenced to Hell (#3). Well, I put it to you plainly that this is exactly what Jesus did - you're right, it would have made absolutely no sense had he merely physically died and went 'back' to been with his Father in heaven. However, when he died on the cross, what he was doing was taking on all the sins of the world and paying for them - receiving the punishment they required (death, both #2 and #3). He didn't return to his Father's presence, he was separated from it - that's what made it a horror. Jesus, the Son of God, was actually treated as if he himself were a sinner. It was a true sacrifice, given the facts, Nuke.
Originally posted by mikhael
Sorry. If that's the one and only "truth", its a law. The source of your morals is as immoral as is possible to be: He's condemned two thirds of the world for no crime other than being who and what He made them.
It's immoral provided you have a view of God that does not permit him to reach those two thirds of the world if he did not choose.
I think God is far more powerful than that. If God wants to reach someone, he will not be stopped by them being in a part of the world where Christianity is illegal by the state, or where a missionary has not yet walked. Consider this:
[q]Some people are born into one culture or another, but the apostle Paul said something very interesting about that when he was speaking to the Athenians. Paul was debating with some Greek philosophers, and he said:
"From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, thoug hhe is not far from each one of us." (Acts 17:26-27)
This is important because Paul's pointing out that there's a sovereign plan in creation, where each person is assigned a place of birth. God knows where we will be born and raised, and he puts us in a position where we might seek him. We are clearly told that wherever we live - in whatever culture, in whatever nation - he is within reach of every one of us. There is always the possiblity of a person crying out on their knees, "God, help me," and if that happens there are ways in which God can minister to them that are beyond our understanding.
For example, he might send someone to share the gospel with them. Or let me tell you what happened in the case of a Muslim woman who worked for a very well-known institution in her own country. She told me how she was leaving her office at the end of her day's work and was very unhappy in her heart. As she was walking, she muttered, "I don't know why I'm so empty," and after that, out of the blue, she said "Jesus, can you help me?" She stopped on the sidewalk and said to herself, "Why did I name him?" That woman ended up finding out who he was and became a Christian.
In her case, I think God saw a heart that hungered for him but did not know how to reach him in the cloister of her existence. I think this was God breaking past the barriers of her environment because she was already breaking through the barriers of her inner life, seeking after him. God can reach into any cultural situation in response to anyone who wants to know him.
Another way of looking at this issue comes from Romans, where Paul says God's infinite power and deity are revealed to everyone through creation (Romans 1:20). Then Paul says God put the law (morals) in our hearts and our consciences that we might seek after him (Romans 2:14-15). And he walks about the word of Christ that is necessary for a person to come to know him. I think more and more that this word of Christ comes within the framework of different cultures.
Virtually every Muslim who has come to follow Christ has done so, first, because of the love fo Christ expressed through a Christian, or second, because of a vision, a dream, or some other supernatural intervention. Now, no religion has a more intricate doctrine of angels and visions than Islam, and I think it's extraordinary that God uses that sensitivity to the supernatural world in which he speaks in visions amd dreams and reveals himself.
One of India's converts was a Sikh, Sundar Singh, who came to know Christ through an apprearance of Christ in his room in a dream one night. It had been a tremendous impact on his life and he became a Christian. So there are ways that God can reveal himself that go far beyond our own understanding.
If God is able to give the word of Christ in various settings in ways we can't even understanding - if he's not far from us wherever we are, if he is able to speak through the general revelation of creation and through our conscience - then we have to accept the fact that we are without excuse. Every human being will know enough truth so that if they respond to that known truth, God will reveal more to them. Does that mean they have to have as much of a volume of truth as someone in another setting does? I don't believe so.
If a person genuinely and sincerely seeks after God, there will be some way he makes available for that person to her of him. If that person would not have responded to God under any circumstance, then perhaps he will not hear of him.
And additionally, the amount of information a person needs to have concerning Christ for salvatio ncan vary widely. The danger of a Western perspective is thinking that if something isn't neatly packaged, it's no good. Some Western Christians think that unless a person says the creed just like they do, they don't know God.
Yet what does an infant know of his mother? He knows she nourishes him, she changes him, she embraces him, she kisses him - she must be a friend. That child doesn't know his mother as well as he will when he's eighteen. But he knows her enough to love her. I believe that as God reveals himself there are levels of understanding that are bound to vary.[/q]
Thoughts, Mik?
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