[01010]

Originally posted by Stunaep

And remember, at the times of the dark ages, religion was also the thing, that kept the collective human knowledge around, by storing and copying them in monasteries. And I consider this a matter-of-fact, that even if I don't believe that Allah exists, or that Jesus was the son of god, I do believe that there was more to them than the average Joe. Which is why I see no point in the why-should-we-care-about-MelGibson's-newest-movie-because-we're-all-atheists argument at all. He was the founder (or one of the founders for that matter) of something, that has affected the lives of everyone in Europe and America, so he should be respected for that. For the same reason, I believe that religious teachings should be in the school compulsory programme, not as much as a religious teaching, but more like focused history. They are embedded in the human culture so neatly, it has no point to just reject them. Remember, all of our moral values are based, to some extent on religion.

I swear, I'm native English and sometimes your grasp of the language is better than mine. I totally agree with almost all of what you said there, I believe Jesus would have been viewed as more of "terrorist" than a bringer of love and peace in Roman times, just time and tide change the original facts.  

Though I honestly think that morals are a natural part of higher intelligence, as opposed to being taught by an organisation. Though I think teaching morals and ethics is something that a parent should have a hand in.

[Bri_Dog]

I guess I'm agnostic.


I'm just going to wait until I die to find out what is and isn't.

And if god is real and as powerful and all knowing as the bible says, then he'd understand why somebody is skeptical about his existance.

[Flipside]

Isn't this thread an oxymoron?

Atheist.

[01010]

If there was enough scientific proof to satisfy me I would definitely be an aetheist, there is just too much that is unexplained in thorough detail for me to not consider the possibility of a higher power.

[mikhael]

Originally posted by 01010

Though I honestly think that morals are a natural part of higher intelligence, as opposed to being taught by an organisation. Though I think teaching morals and ethics is something that a parent should have a hand in.

Morals are arise from intelligence. They don't have to be taught, but if they're not, they have to be reasoned out individually.

Morals are just an example of game theory applied to real life. Its all long-term/short-term risk/gain trade offs. In other words, we have morals because we can reason out justifications for our moral systems.

In the best case scenario, your morals are taught to you and you reason them through yourself to see if they hold value for you.

[01010]

Originally posted by mikhael


Morals are arise from intelligence. They don't have to be taught, but if they're not, they have to be reasoned out individually.

Morals are just an example of game theory applied to real life. Its all long-term/short-term risk/gain trade offs. In other words, we have morals because we can reason out justifications for our moral systems.

In the best case scenario, your morals are taught to you and you reason them through yourself to see if they hold value for you.

You put it far better than I ever could. Exactly the point I was trying to convey.

[diamondgeezer]

Originally posted by Nuke
all the knoledge we have of god today is heavily skewed and distorted by the passage of time and the will of evil man. if there is a god, i think that everything we know about him is wrong, as in no longer accurate.

Originally posted by mikhael
In my more religious moments, I believe that God is just a handy label for the supreme wave function of the universe. That doesn't happen often though.

Originally posted by Stunaep
Agnostic. Not atheist. Agnostic. I'm cool with some uber-power, and as long as there is no concrete proof that it doesn't exist, I won't argue with someone who does.

I believe that religious teachings should be in the school compulsory programme, not as much as a religious teaching, but more like focused history.

Another thing that puts me off about religion is the sheer number of splinter factions and different denominations. Mr A and Mr B are God-worshipping Christians. But A reckons women shouldn't train as priests/whatever while B is perfectly happy with it. Don't they both read the same Bible? Should their views on the subject not therefore be the same? If God left room in the Bible for interpretation by humans, then He's not going to have a whole lot of people up there in Heaven since only one of those denominations can be 100% right. A question for the Christians here  who dissaprove of the gay marriage thing: do all Christians who love and worship God and lead kind and generous lives go to Heaven? Or just the ones who agree that that gay marriage is wrong?

NB - I see this turning in to a Bush-bashing thread. I'd like to avoide that as it'll get locked. I just took the gay marriage example cos it's current

And another question - I once asked, during a religion thread, if aliens from,say, Stavromula Beta landed on Earth tomorrow, would they be Christian? Would the Chrisitans be suprised to find out the aliens practice shinto? But that's not my question. A Christian member of this board told me that believing in the existence of aliens was pretty stupid. I ask you this: is believing in an invisible dude in the sky who tells you what to do any more daft-sounding? What makes me a UFO-nut and you a religious worshipper? Why are twenty guys down the road who pratice their own brand of Chrisitnaity a weird cult and not a religious denomination? You realise if religion were a new phenomenon today, and you went around telling people you live by rules laid down by the Big Guy in the Sky™ (who's invisible, BTW), you'd be either ignored, laughed at or thrown in the loony bin

Here endeth the random ramblings of DG

Who voted Budhist? If you don't mind me asking...

[Blaise Russel]

And another question - I once asked, during a religion thread, if aliens from,say, Stavromula Beta landed on Earth tomorrow, would they be Christian?

That reminds me of a cool short story, by Ray Bradbury I believe, about this guy travelling from world to world, following Jesus as *he* travels from world to world, teaching his philosophy to the various kinds of life out there. It was pretty cool.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by diamondgeezer
A Christian member of this board told me that believing in the existence of aliens was pretty stupid. I ask you this: is believing in an invisible dude in the sky who tells you what to do any more daft-sounding? What makes me a UFO-nut and you a religious worshipper? Why are twenty guys down the road who pratice their own brand of Chrisitnaity a weird cult and not a religious denomination? You realise if religion were a new phenomenon today, and you went around telling people you live by rules laid down by the Big Guy in the Sky™ (who's invisible, BTW), you'd be either ignored, laughed at or thrown in the loony bin

I remember during the whole Glenn Hoddle/Handicapped people are suffering for a past life thing that one of the broadsheets ran a great cartoon.  It had a picture of Hoddle sat in a class with words like reincarnation and karma crossed out and Virgin Birth and transubstantiation with ticks next to them.
 The tagline was sacked for believing in the wrong kind of mumbo-jumbo

The cartoon was dead on. I never saw anything in his beliefs that were any less insulting than the christian attitude to gay people.

[mikhael]

I voted Buddhist. I didn't like "other" so I took the only non-worship spiritual option.

Besides, Zen Buddhism is TEH ROCK when it comes to using your mind.

[Ace]

Originally posted by diamondgeezer
Who voted Budhist? If you don't mind me asking...[/color]

I did. However, I'm probably more atheistic as I do have disagreements with practically applying Bhuddism to real life, since the state of nirvanna theoretically supercedes the survival instinct which forces innovation.

[Martinus]

[color=66ff00]I've never liked the argument that as we get smarter we come to realise that there is no God. I see it more as a case of as we get smarter we have less hassles in life, as a result we have less tendency to need to believe in God or a higher power.

You ever notice that less well off people in general tend to be devoutly religious?
[/color]

[Sandwich]

Originally posted by diamondgeezer
He says it's not that I'm a particulalry bad person.

....that person will still go to hell if they don't pray to God regularly. Which I think is a ****ty attitude, betwixt you and me. ... to put more weight in prayer and church attendance before acts of love and charity is pathetic, IMO.

Amen. Honest.

The bottom line of Christianity is this: Jesus died in our stead for the sins of the world. He offers a free gift of salvation by this act to whomever chooses to accept it. Period. That's it.

You don't have to pray 5 times a day, you don't have to go to church, you don't have to give all your money to anyone. Simple acceptance of Him as Lord and savior is all that's required for salvation.

Obviously, there are ways to live life that are recommended, but that's always the case no matter what you believe in. You don't have to be a goody-two-shoes, you don't have to help the old lady down the street with her groceries, and you don't have to live a "perfect" life. There's no sin, no evil action, no wrongdoing, that will not be forgiven. You CANNOT be "not good enough". Nobody is good enough, nobody can be good enough, and this is why Jesus gave his life for us.

And yes, He loves you, whether you accept Him or not.


Anyway, I'm not gonna apologize for the proselytizing if that's how I came across. I just wanted to set things straight once and for all; y'all know I don't usually get like this.

Originally posted by Corsair
Maybe most Jews don't bug people about religion because they're either reform or conservative. If you get to know some of the more religious Jews though, you'll see that they are extreme in their beliefs. While they may not actively try to convert people like the missionaries of old, they exert a whole lot of power in Israel. Political power.
At least it seems that way sometimes. I don't know Israeli politics that well, and it confuses me sometimes. Sandwich would know a lot more than me.

Yeah, they hold massive poltical power, partially because a top rabbi can tell everyone to vote for so-and-so, and they'll all go and vote. Contrast this to the voting percentages of the secular population, which is usually less than 50%, and you can understand the political power.

I'm of 2 minds about the Orthodox Jews here. On one hand, the politically-involved ones can and do get quite corrupt. They're very self-serving.

On the other hand, they are also a balance against the rampant secularism developing here. You may value them or not, but morals here would be down the drain if not for the equalizing force the Orthodox bring to the culture.

Originally posted by 01010
Exactly, tolerance, if only the world were more tolerant of each other beliefs it'd be a good start on turning things around on this ball of rock.

Tolerance is definitely good, but I must differentiate between that and indifference. Personally speaking, I'm tolerant of pretty much anything, so long as it doesn't adversely affect the lives of others.

But indifference is something else entirely. For example, I know that the only way to salvation is through Jesus. I can be perfectly tolerant of people who do not believe as I do, but I'm not gonna be indifferent and say that it doesn't matter that they don't believe in Jesus. It does matter, and I'll say that to your face(s). I'm not gonna pressure anybody, but I'm not gonna pretend that it's "ok".

Do you see the difference?

Originally posted by diamondgeezer
A question for the Christians here  who dissaprove of the gay marriage thing: do all Christians who love and worship God and lead kind and generous lives go to Heaven? Or just the ones who agree that that gay marriage is wrong?

Gay marriage is not a salvation issue. See above. Yeah, according to the Bible it's blatantly wrong, a sin, etc, (homosexual relations are), but that doesn't mean that such people cannot get to Heaven.

Originally posted by diamondgeezer
And another question - I once asked, during a religion thread, if aliens from,say, Stavromula Beta landed on Earth tomorrow, would they be Christian?

Insufficient data to answer that question.

Originally posted by diamondgeezer
Would the Chrisitans be suprised to find out the aliens practice shinto?

Probably, yeah, but then again so would you.

Originally posted by diamondgeezer
But that's not my question. A Christian member of this board told me that believing in the existence of aliens was pretty stupid. I ask you this: is believing in an invisible dude in the sky who tells you what to do any more daft-sounding?

Why do you think it's called "faith"?

Actually, this is an issue I just explored with friends tonight... just what is "faith"? The Bible says that "faith without works is dead", which makes perfect sense:

If you have faith in someone, you trust that person. You can rely on them. But if you never give them the opportunity to be faithful, then what's the point of having that faith?

There's that game of trust where someone stands behind you, and you allow yourself to fall backwards, trusting that person to catch you. Yeah, you may trust the person to catch you, but unless you go ahead and take that step of faith in falling backwards, then your trust is meaningless.

So to answer your question, my faith in God, my trust in God, has been confirmed many times.... after I took the step of faith and went out on a limb. He caught me. And now I have a basis for my faith.

Originally posted by Maeglamor
[color=66ff00]You ever notice that less well off people in general tend to be devoutly religious?[/color]

They have less invested in worldly things. Money is a powerfully seductive force, and the love of money is quite capable of blinding people to anything else. Not just blinding them from God, but also from friends, family, etc.


Wow, what a post.

[01010]

Originally posted by Sandwich


Tolerance is definitely good, but I must differentiate between that and indifference. Personally speaking, I'm tolerant of pretty much anything, so long as it doesn't adversely affect the lives of others.

But indifference is something else entirely. For example, I know that the only way to salvation is through Jesus. I can be perfectly tolerant of people who do not believe as I do, but I'm not gonna be indifferent and say that it doesn't matter that they don't believe in Jesus. It does matter, and I'll say that to your face(s). I'm not gonna pressure anybody, but I'm not gonna pretend that it's "ok".

Do you see the difference?

I understand, it is the nature of your beliefs to spread the word, actually, I have no problem whatsoever in the way someone like you or Setekh spreads the word, you're both perfect examples of religion that works, every person is entitled to their own opinion and as long as it's not rammed down my throat I'll always listen.

[mikhael]

Originally posted by Sandwich

You don't have to pray 5 times a day, you don't have to go to church, you don't have to give all your money to anyone. Simple acceptance of Him as Lord and savior is all that's required for salvation.

Well yeah, if you buy into Christian dogma, sure. But if you don't, well, that's a whole other oyster. What about the other 2/3rds of the world who don't fall under judeochristian/muslim dogma?

Anyway, I'm not gonna apologize for the proselytizing if that's how I came across. I just wanted to set things straight once and for all; y'all know I don't usually get like this.

Nah. You weren't proselytizing. It was rather a stunner coming from you. You really DON'T usually get like this.

On the other hand, they are also a balance against the rampant secularism developing here. You may value them or not, but morals here would be down the drain if not for the equalizing force the Orthodox bring to the culture.

You say that like being secular is a bad thing.

But indifference is something else entirely. For example, I know that the only way to salvation is through Jesus.

Does that mean most of the world is going to be stuck without salvation? Nice guy, that Jesus.

If you have faith in someone, you trust that person. You can rely on them. But if you never give them the opportunity to be faithful, then what's the point of having that faith?

That sounds an awful lot like playing mind games. I don't have to test my wife's faith in me--I have faith its there.

They have less invested in worldly things. Money is a powerfully seductive force, and the love of money is quite capable of blinding people to anything else. Not just blinding them from God, but also from friends, family, etc.

I'd like to offer an opposing, perhaps more cynical, viewpoint. Perhaps, these people are living lives that are so hard and so difficult that they have to find comfort somewhere, and that comfort for them is in believing in the nice thing that will happen later if they just endure long enough. Perhaps, just perhaps, if these people didn't have to worry about where their next meal is coming from, or how they're going to afford the mortgage payment, they could take comfort in their own works.
I'm not saying I'm right, and I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying that there's more than one interpretation.

And I'd like to second one 01010 said.

[Kazan]

I am insulted that you call science a higher power

you completely miss the point when you call science a higher power - i refuse to vote in said poll until it is fixed to have a "none" option

[Setekh]

Originally posted by 01010
I understand, it is the nature of your beliefs to spread the word, actually, I have no problem whatsoever in the way someone like you or Setekh spreads the word, you're both perfect examples of religion that works, every person is entitled to their own opinion and as long as it's not rammed down my throat I'll always listen.

*waves*

I've always been most bitter about religion that doesn't work. There are more than most people would readily believe. For example (I'm just making this up as I go), the assertion that "statements of truth are not naturally exclusive" (as is mostly believed by those who believe in a unification of all world religions, does not work, because the assertion itself is an exclusive statement of truth.

Anyway, that's a more theoretical one than I intended. I think that, whatever I believe, it ought to work (and I should give it an honest try before I dismiss it), or it already lies broken on the ground. Christianity happens to work, and the more I learn of it the more it works; but like Sandwich, I'll be tolerant but not indifferent to those of you who disagree (most of you).

Errr, and I stand behind Sandwich's mammoth post. Cheers, dude.

[Bobboau]

kaz there is a 'none' option, 3rd fom last

[Knight Templar]

I worship the Dark Lord Anubis himself.

Fear, mortals!

[Nico]

Originally posted by Sandwich
And yes, He loves you, whether you accept Him or not.

But still, that won't prevent him to send us to hell if we don't?
Lol, I call that inrequired love