Originally posted by Sandwich
Close, or am I completely off?
Close. See below.
Originally posted by Ghostavo
If you are refering that perfection is refered more often to Jesus in any form and thereby refuting my previous opinion about god being the only perfect being I advise you to think about your future in that Master Degree of yours with this. If you deny this "god being 3 guys", you're saying that Christianity is a form of polytheism thereby correcting my earlier post. Either you were refering to Jesus or not, I'm sorry if I sound rude as I don't know any other way of saying this. The rest applies to what Tiara and Windrunner were saying about striving towards perfectness.
I likewise am sorry for getting snippy in my last post.
Anyways, I wasn't trying to call your attention to the fact that Christ is called perfect (don't worry, I am quite familiar with the doctrine of the Trinity
). Instead, I wanted to point out that this term is used for his followers as well. Looking over the
link I gave above, one can note that
- Matthew 5:48 and 19:21,
- 2 Corinthians 13:9, 11,
- Philippians 3:12,
- Colossians 1:28,
- Hebrews 7:11, 19, 10:14, 11:40, and 12:23,
- James 3:2, and
- 1 John 4:18
all hold out in one way or another the idea that human beings can be perfect.
You see, monotheism doesn't say that there can only be one perfect being, just that there can be only one God. God is perfect, but that doesn't mean other things can't be perfect too.
To really explain what I mean with that, let's move on to your next point...
Let me put it this way... What is not perfect is imperfect, you can't deny that in any way as it would be like saying that something that isn't lit isn't dark.
On a very simplistic, black-and-white level, this is of course true. However, the reality is a little more complicated...
Let's look at the definition of perfect that you linked above. It says
Brought to consummation or completeness; completed; not defective nor redundant; having all the properties or qualities requisite to its nature and kind; without flaw, fault, or blemish; without error; mature; whole; pure; sound; right; correct.
Now, Adam and Eve, as originally created, fit some of these definitions, and not others. They were without flaw, fault, blemish, or error. They were exactly what God wanted them to be
at that time. However, God also wanted them to start from this flawless state and use the gifts he had given them to grow into even greater glory.* So they hadn't yet attained everything God meant for them to attain.
This means that on one level, they fit the description of perfect (they were flawless and everything God intended them to be at that time). On another level, they were not yet perfect (they still had to complete everything they were intended to do in the future).
This is why I have been saying that the categories of perfect/imperfect don't really work well in this case. It depends on what perspective you are taking. (I.e.: Are you looking at what they were, or what they were to become?)
I'm not saying they are imperfect because the bible doesn't say they are perfect,
No,
I was making the point that the Bible doesn't call them either perfect or imperfect. My reason for doing so was to get at the idea that I have laid out above in this post--the Bible doesn't use the terms for the simple reason that they don't work well here.
what I am saying repetedly is that due to their actions they are not perfect.
I know, I read what you said before.
I've been trying in various ways to answer that for you.
You might remember from that diagram I drew earlier that I included three important qualities about human beings. These were that humans had free will, that they were able to change their nature, and that they were made to be in direct interpersonal relationship with God. All of these things were part of what God intended humans to be--one could say that they were perfections. But there is a risk involved in giving humans those qualities, because they could exercise their free will by choosing to change their nature in a way God didn't want by breaking their relationship with him. Humans made the choice to do just that, and at that moment they became imperfect.
The thing to note about this is that the power to choose is not an imperfection. What caused Adam and Eve to choose to disobey God?
Nothing[/u]. You see, when God gave them free will, he wasn't kidding. He gave them the pure, raw, free, autonomous power to choose what they would do. Nothing forced them to do what they did. No imperfection caused it. Nothing caused it. If something had caused it, they wouldn't have had free will. But they did have free will. And by an act of sheer will, they chose what they did. Having that power wasn't a bad thing--it could equally as well have been used for good. The issue isn't whether that power was good, it is whether we used it for bad or good.
That's why I have to disagree with your statement, Ghostavo. If we sinned because we were already imperfect in that way at the beginning, then there was no free will.
* I.e. "I've given you the necessary abilities, so go out and take this world I've made and make it even better," which is the basic meaning of the command to "Fill the earth and subdue it" in Gen 1:28.
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