Author Topic: Vasudan History, Take 2  (Read 3724 times)

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Offline Eishtmo

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Vasudan History, Take 2
Alright, I've completely reevaluated my estimation of Vasudan history/government and what not, and have changed enough that the original bit is more or less wrong on every level.  First, let's start with some basic facts:

1.  Vasuda Prime is an unpleasant place to live (even more so than I thought so before, thanks to recent discoveries)
2.  There are "ambassadors" between the Emperor and the Parliament. (FS1 tech room)
3.  The Imperial Dynasty is either 10,000 years old or expected to last 10,000 years.
4.  The Vasudans were forced off the planet to search for "resources needed for their species’ survival" (namely water).
5.  They are excellent engineers and build efficent propulsion systems.
6.  Excel at "excavation and the efficient use and transport of resources."
7.  "[L]ive mostly in domed, sheltered, or underground cities"
8.  Government discourages mysticism and fanatical religion.
9.  Vasudan language is increadibly complex.
10.  There is a great deal of respect and admiration of the Emperor.
11.  The Emperor has the power to dissolve an elected assembly.

Alright, that's enough.  Let's get on with this mess.

The first thing we must do is make an assumption:  The Vasudans are native to Vasuda Prime.  They aren't the Ancients, they weren't brought there by the Ancients.  There is no definitive evidence on this topic either way, so I'll make it easy on myself and say that it's not true.

Okay, from there we can set some things up.  First:  Vasuda Prime is a terrible place, with low reserves of water.  This means that most Vasudan cities, reguarless of type, would be built on or near underground water supplies.  Due to limited supplies, these cities were, until the advent of space travel, limited in size and probably fairly well scattered across the planet.  Most were probably founded when one group of a city was forced to leave one city, and went off the found another.

Being spread out, and likely out of contact with each other for long periods (if not complete isolation), each city would be it's own nation, meaning the early history of the planet is dominated by small city-states, much like ancient Greece.  In fact, it's very likely that until radio was invented, most of these city-states didn't have much to do with each other on a regular basis.

The Imperium and the 10,000 Year Dynasty probably appeared during this period as just another city-state of the planet.  To expand, the Emperor had to project his power over the other states by some means.  Thus appear the Ambassadors.

These "Ambassadors" aren't exactly what one thinks of when the word is presented.  They aren't whiney, politically appointed pencil necks, but likely hardy adventurers, travelers, thinkers and perhaps even missionaries.  Their goal was to go to the other city-states and encourage them to join the Imperium.  Other city-state leaders probably thought the same thing and sent their own Ambassadors out amongst the world.  In any case, the Ambassadors would have to very smart, as they would have to learn the complex customs and language of each city-state to get his/her message across (the large number of city-states is probably one of the reasons for the complexities of the Vasudan language).  They also had to be brave and tough to actually challenge the endless deserts of Vasuda Prime.

Which means that when war came, the Ambassadors were probably put in charge of the armies.  They probably continued in this capacity until the GTVA proper was set up, if they even stopped then.  The wars that eventually lead to the domiation of Vasuda Prime by the Imperium were probably long affairs, that didn't end until space travel began, perhaps not even then.

The Parliament developed as a result of the Imperium's expansion.  Initially, they probably only held a session for special reasons, and then were probably made up of the actual leaders of the various city-states that pledged allegiance to the Emperor, not necessarily elected officials.  It would be radio that changed this, and allowed, for the first time, a permenant parliament to be called.

At this point, the Emperor and the Parliament probably began to struggle for power.  Since the Emperor could now rule the entire Imperium without lower level govenors, he probably believed that they should ceade to his orders.  The Parliament, now a united force, believed they should have more say.  Conflict was likely, and probably never actually let up until the start of the 14 Year War.

The battles were probably fought through the Ambassadors.  They took the money of the Imperium or the Parliament, and used it to wage a non-war war to gain support.  It is likely that by the 2320's, the Parliament had managed to gain the upperhand in this conflict, as the Empire was under their control.  (It is also likely that both Emperor and Parliament used the 14 Year War to try to gain an advantage over the other).

While the Parliament and Imperium were fighting each other in a quasi-war, they were both activily trying to eliminate various extremist religious groups.  The Emperor probably did this from the start, as only he could be worshiped as a god or semi-divine, no one else.  The Parliament did it to try to weaken the overall power of the Emperor, and to protect the Emperor at the same time (better to have the nut you know than the one you don't, kind of thing).

Well, that's about it.  Sorry if it's a bit rambling or stops short, but I'm tired.  Thoughts?
Warpstorm  Bringing Disorder to Chaos, And Eventually We'll Get It Right.

---------

I know there is a method, but all I see is madness.

 

Offline TopAce

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Are you calling this 'short'?
Good work :yes:
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The tools to maintain order are: lies, double standards, and hypocrisy. The most powerful and the most insidious of them is hypocrisy

 

Offline Eishtmo

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Stops short.  As in there's no actual conclusion to this mess.
Warpstorm  Bringing Disorder to Chaos, And Eventually We'll Get It Right.

---------

I know there is a method, but all I see is madness.

 
Mind If I start working on it some?

I got some ideas (and some ideas too!)
If you want to be ready for Wing Commander Saga: The Darkest Dawn, then download and play the prologue first.

Here,

http://www.wcsaga.com/downloads/files/download/releases-prologue-setup-exe.html

Then, while waiting for the Darkest dawn, Download Starshatter 4.02

http://www.starshattermods.com/infusions/pro_download_panel/download.php?did=214

You 'll understand why once you have.

 

Offline Eishtmo

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That's why I posted it.  Go ahead, say what you think.
Warpstorm  Bringing Disorder to Chaos, And Eventually We'll Get It Right.

---------

I know there is a method, but all I see is madness.

 
Still working on it. Day after tommorow, first draft.

Cheers
If you want to be ready for Wing Commander Saga: The Darkest Dawn, then download and play the prologue first.

Here,

http://www.wcsaga.com/downloads/files/download/releases-prologue-setup-exe.html

Then, while waiting for the Darkest dawn, Download Starshatter 4.02

http://www.starshattermods.com/infusions/pro_download_panel/download.php?did=214

You 'll understand why once you have.

  
Do we plan to get all this information wrapped up along with the rest of the history and timelines of FS2?

 

Offline Ace

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Another two points to add:
12. The Parliament was known for its corruption.
13. Emporer Khonsu II dissolved the Parliament.

Take that as you will, I personally believe that the Parliament ousted the Emporer from power either just before or shortly after the V-T war began.

After the Great War, Khonsu II stepped in and dissolved the Parliament. This may or may not have involved a brief civil war. Most likely, due to the diaspora Khonsu II was easily able to gain support and was able to dissolve the Parliament with limited bloodshed and reinstated the old ways.

I think that the relationship between the Emporer and Parliament was like the relationship between the Russian Orthodox Church and the Communist party. Once the Party collapsed, the grassroots religious community came into the open again, as people practised the religion but claimed that they did not.
Ace
Self-plagiarism is style.
-Alfred Hitchcock

 

Offline Anaz

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Quote
Originally posted by .::Tin Can::.
Do we plan to get all this information wrapped up along with the rest of the history and timelines of FS2?


No. We plan to serve it as a side with the beef.
Arrr. I'm a pirate.

AotD, DatDB, TVWP, LM. Ph34r.

You WILL go to warpstorm...

 

Offline Knight Templar

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mmmm beef

The other red meat. :yes:
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Too Long, Didn't Read

 

Offline Carl

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Re: Vasudan History, Take 2
Quote
Originally posted by Eishtmo
3.  The Imperial Dynasty is either 10,000 years old or expected to last 10,000 years.


Or neither.

The longevity of the Imperial Dynasty could be greatly exaggerated, a myth perpetuated by the Dynasty itself. Something that is traditionally believed by the Vasudans, simply because it's what they'd like to believe, that their government is stable.

It's like from "The King and I" were Anna sees the King's children being taught by their teacher that their country Siam is huge and powerful, when really it's incredibly small, or the massive propiganda from Orwelle's 1984.
I find it hard to believe that any Dynasty could last ten millenia.
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Offline Flaser

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Check your historybooks - go take a look at Chine and Egypt
"I was going to become a speed dealer. If one stupid fairytale turns out to be total nonsense, what does the young man do? If you answered, “Wake up and face reality,” you don’t remember what it was like being a young man. You just go to the next entry in the catalogue of lies you can use to destroy your life." - John Dolan

 

Offline Gank

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Neither lasted anything approaching that length of time. Vasudans are aliens though, nowt to say one of their dynastys couldnt last that long.

 

Offline Carl

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Quote
Originally posted by Flaser
Check your historybooks - go take a look at China and Egypt


egypt had 20 or so dynasties spanning about 3000 years. that's 300 years per dynasty, not even close.
"Gunnery control, fry that ****er!" - nuclear1

 
Basically, I have written a chronology of sorts. I would like to send it to  Eisthmo for looks.

My version of vasuda history goes like this.

City states (like in messopotamia) founded by rivers or oases. Myth and superstition rules supreme. There are factions as in whichever city. Priest-Kings rule and kill off who they desire by calling him heathen and unbeliever.

Such was the story of  Vsduthen. He and his followers were cast away from his city for doubting that the Great gods have lights on the sky, and believing that they are in facts worlds like the one they were living on.

(Vsduthen had in fact witnessed the crashing and burning of what would later be classified as an ancients' probe. He then went to demonstrate his find to his followers who agreed that such an alloy of metal could not be produced by anything that time had to offer).

Thus they were cast out, adrift in the sands. Thinking they would not be lost, they set out towards the direction where the probe had been seen. It was a rugged mountainous area, so much so, that no-one had bothered exploring it. They did. After a lot of anguish pain and in the end of their efforts, they found a small valley high up in the mountains where a small pond would create a small lake and then fall back in the mountains.

Considering this a gift from the other worlds, Vsduthen, founded and city and called it "Vasuda" which meant "Falling sun's gift". He founded a city, a dynasty, that would go in great lengths to explain things, rather than having it done by a god.

- As a holy relic the broken piece of the Ancients device remained the cornerstone of Vasuda's belief in the fact that there were others out of the sky and in time they would be found.

A few things remain of Vsudathen, after he founded Vasuda. Only the most cryptic message that a voice spelled in his dreams...

"Learn to use things, make new things and expand, for one day your whole world will crash and burn much like your holly relic. When that time comes... Be out of your world, or you WILL DIE WITH IT"
...when he tried to find out who would kill his world only one word  came in his mind amongst visions of grea angles and many horns black and red... "The destroyers"

Scholars to this day are on each others throats as to if this prophecy was foretold to Vsduthen before he left to found Vasuda or after. I guess it is one of the things we wil never be sure of  

And so the story begins... (@Eisthmo, want me to post the rest of what I thought up here, or should I send it over to you instead? Don't want to deviate from the history you have already thought out)

My inspiration is the Ancient accadian and sumerian cities of Uru and Akkad in messopotamia, Ancien hisraeli history. Also, older and medium kingdom in Egypt, Ancient Greece city states and Roman republic.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2004, 07:16:41 am by 970 »
If you want to be ready for Wing Commander Saga: The Darkest Dawn, then download and play the prologue first.

Here,

http://www.wcsaga.com/downloads/files/download/releases-prologue-setup-exe.html

Then, while waiting for the Darkest dawn, Download Starshatter 4.02

http://www.starshattermods.com/infusions/pro_download_panel/download.php?did=214

You 'll understand why once you have.

 

Offline Eishtmo

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Quote
Originally posted by GT-Keravnos
@Eisthmo, want me to post the rest of what I thought up here, or should I send it over to you instead? Don't want to deviate from the history you have already thought out)


Well, I wasn't looking to write any specifics reguarding their history, just enough to give me a back bone for the rest of TVWP.  Still, I'll happily read it and give you a critique on the ideas therein.  The one big problem you have is oasis/river thing, as there likely aren't any (look here for a full thing on Vasuda Prime itself I figured up, especially the last few posts).  Beyond that, you can either email it or (better for me and others to see) start a new thread.

Now on to the rest:

Quote
Another two points to add:

12. The Parliament was known for its corruption.
13. Emporer Khonsu II dissolved the Parliament.


One point, #11 says the same thing as #13, only with more words.

Quote
Take that as you will, I personally believe that the Parliament ousted the Emporer from power either just before or shortly after the V-T war began.

After the Great War, Khonsu II stepped in and dissolved the Parliament. This may or may not have involved a brief civil war. Most likely, due to the diaspora Khonsu II was easily able to gain support and was able to dissolve the Parliament with limited bloodshed and reinstated the old ways.

I think that the relationship between the Emporer and Parliament was like the relationship between the Russian Orthodox Church and the Communist party. Once the Party collapsed, the grassroots religious community came into the open again, as people practised the religion but claimed that they did not.


The problem with this is multifold:

1.  The Emperor is directly mentioned, which means he still held the throne.  His power could have been removed (one sec on that) but he most certianly wasn't ousted.

2.  If he was removed from power, the Parliment probably would have endevored to kill him.  Remember that they've been trying to get rid of radical religions, and from what I can gather, the Emperor essentially had his own cult (nearly race wide, given that the language changes depending on physical distance to the Emperor).  This would constitute a radical religion and a direct threat to the Parliment's power.  They could have kept him as a figurehead with no power, but. . .

3.  There is communication between the Imperium and the Parliment, the Ambassadors.  If the Emperor had no power, why would the Parliment care what he thought?  They wouldn't, the Ambassadors would be little more than a formality.  This is not how their role is implied in the tech room, it's discussed as an important part of the government.

From this, there must be some level of power sharing between the two.  At the beginning and throughout the war, I could see the balance being more in the Parliment's court than the Emperor's, but it was never enough to overthrow him.  It was only after the Great War and the chaos that followed could the Emperor dissolve the Parliment (which we have no indication at all of being violent in any way shape or form, yet another strike against the idea).

Quote
The longevity of the Imperial Dynasty could be greatly exaggerated, a myth perpetuated by the Dynasty itself. Something that is traditionally believed by the Vasudans, simply because it's what they'd like to believe, that their government is stable.


That's possible, however, the definition of Dynasty is pretty mallible, so even if a succession of individuals from different backgrounds became Emperor, that doesn't mean they wouldn't call it a single dynasty.  (I'm thinking lots of 'adoptions' going on).  In the end, however, I think they were trying to make a point that the Vasudans were around during the time of the ancients (8000 years previous) so the point is a bit moot.
Warpstorm  Bringing Disorder to Chaos, And Eventually We'll Get It Right.

---------

I know there is a method, but all I see is madness.

 

Offline Ace

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Quote
Originally posted by Eishtmo
The problem with this is multifold:

1.  The Emperor is directly mentioned, which means he still held the throne.  His power could have been removed (one sec on that) but he most certianly wasn't ousted.

2.  If he was removed from power, the Parliment probably would have endevored to kill him.  Remember that they've been trying to get rid of radical religions, and from what I can gather, the Emperor essentially had his own cult (nearly race wide, given that the language changes depending on physical distance to the Emperor).  This would constitute a radical religion and a direct threat to the Parliment's power.  They could have kept him as a figurehead with no power, but. . .

3.  There is communication between the Imperium and the Parliment, the Ambassadors.  If the Emperor had no power, why would the Parliment care what he thought?  They wouldn't, the Ambassadors would be little more than a formality.  This is not how their role is implied in the tech room, it's discussed as an important part of the government.

From this, there must be some level of power sharing between the two.  At the beginning and throughout the war, I could see the balance being more in the Parliment's court than the Emperor's, but it was never enough to overthrow him.  It was only after the Great War and the chaos that followed could the Emperor dissolve the Parliment (which we have no indication at all of being violent in any way shape or form, yet another strike against the idea).


There's also no indication that the dissolution of the Parliament was not violent. Just as there is no indication that the founding of the GTA was violent.

Ousted might be too strong of a word. More than likely the Emporer was stripped down to a ceremonial role and his cult pushed underground. The ambassadors existing mainly as a courtesy. This seems to match with the idea of a corrupt, powerful, parliament.
Ace
Self-plagiarism is style.
-Alfred Hitchcock

 
It's time for a third party version: Mine!

Vasudans started out like we did only they were in small citys scatterd around their planet. Sence these citys were miles away they would have formed their own languages, and when the first ever emperor came intor power he took their languages and formed their extreamly complex system of speach based on age, caste, time of day, and the Vasudan calendar.

Religion was combined into one with parts of each moulded into one, not unlike what the Romans did to people they conquered. On the political side of things each city/state elected a Vasduan to reprasent them in the parliment, with the emperor at the head making all the final decisions.

now that is where the truble of the Vasudan pollicy, and government has it's problems. Nethier the Parliment nor the emperor could agree on anything and thus they would have had many problems with religions still beening practiced, and Vasduans voiceing their own opinions.

Thus to get the system to work the emperor Khonsu the 2nd desolved the Parliment, and wen't for a more human like damocrasy.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2004, 06:26:04 pm by 1731 »
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