Author Topic: In case the subject comes up again. . .  (Read 9341 times)

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Offline jdjtcagle

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OOPS...
Ment to say world of religion.
It's not going to happen, no matter what kind of facts are discovered.
And yes one does agree with the 15 kilometer asteroid
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Offline Tiara

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The world of religion changes as well. Don't you see the difference of the church since it came into existence? And it'snot because the church wanted to change, it was because they were forced to change.

For example:

- Witchhunt
- Withes proven not to exist
- Witchhunts stop cuz the church can't deny the proof and even if they did they'd have real trouble with a lot of people. :p
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Offline jdjtcagle

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Witchunts???
Riiighht...:p
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Offline Liberator

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In case the subject comes up again. . .
I was refering to aldo's witicism, sorry you didn't pick up on that.

Regardless, one day, something will happen;
You're fiance might be heavily injured in a car wreck, you might lose your job, you're children might get sick, you might get sick; regardless, one day something will happen that makes you face your mortality.  At that moment, you will feel God asking to help with your burden.  

Tiara, given your condition I'm surprised you don't agree, at least somewhat.
So as through a glass, and darkly
The age long strife I see
Where I fought in many guises,
Many names, but always me.

There are only 10 types of people in the world , those that understand binary and those that don't.

 

Offline karajorma

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Lib. That is the most insulting thing I've read in weeks. The sad thing is that you don't even realise the magnitude of the insult and the basic stupidity inherent in it.

What you're saying is that if I were to get a terminal illness I would get religion. I would believe that when I die it will be the end of my imperfect life on Earth and the beginning of my perfect life in heaven bathed in the glory of God. You then believe that upon making this transition I'd pray not to die. That is the single most stupid idea I have ever heard in my life. If I'm going to heaven when I die why would I care about death?

I worry about death because I know that it will be the end of my existance but if I believed that it wouldn't be I'd smoke, drink more and crosss roads without looking. After all when I die I'm going to heaven so what would I care about life?  

So your act of praying to God when you're in trouble actually shows your lack of faith because some part of you seems to want to remain on Earth and not be part of this God's infinite love in heaven.
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Offline aldo_14

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Quote
Originally posted by Kazan
calling them beliefs is a stretch - but i'll let you get away with it :P


but no, i will not let irrationality continue to weight our species down


It's not your call to make, is it?  

Unless you fancy yourself as an ubermensch, of course.

On the subject of mortality - I couldn;t find the exact source for this quote (or the exact text) but IMO it's fitting;

"If I am, i am not dead
If I am dead, i am not
So why worry about what happens when I am not?"

 

Offline Tiara

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In case the subject comes up again. . .
Quote
Originally posted by Liberator

Tiara, given your condition I'm surprised you don't agree, at least somewhat.

a). I don't believe in god so whats the point in asking?
b). If I'd look for help I would go to TCO, my own family, etc... Surely not some IMO non-existant diety.
c). See a and b.

Besides, turning to god only when you need him wasn't a good thing anywayz IIRC :p

I sure as hell don't agree with you in the least bit. The fact that I got hit by a car would be god's fault to begin with. :ick:
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Offline Stunaep

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In case the subject comes up again. . .
But Liberator does have a point, though his way of expressing it, is well,  you know. People who have lost everything (or never had anything to begin with), often turn to God, and the idea of Heaven and '**** as means of finding hope for a better future. Now unless you're one of those people who say that "If you're poor, then it's your own god-damn fault" (which is imo, about as stupid a statement that one can make), then that's gotta count as a good use for religion. Inversely, those with money, girlfriends, power, and so on, may eventually want to achieve something more, than that, because if truly all humans ever wanted was, as Kazan put it, a girlfriend, a good job, and respect for his accomplishments and whatnot, then life wouldn't be very perspective. Sure, they're a requirement for happy life, but still. A good portion people (well, ambitious people anyhow, which certainly goes for them rich religious people), wish to achieve something greater, something that will laster longer than they do, and some of them, to that end, turn to religion. And that's a good thing, mind ya.

Me, myself, just to get my views on religion clear, are pretty similar to Tiara. I don't believe in God, but I don't completely deny the possiblity of his existence either. I believe that there is neither enough evidence to support his existance, nor enough to disprove it. And since I do accept the general principles (NOTE the word principles) of christianity, I don't like when people insult other people just because their views seem 'irrational'.

Kaz: Acting on a gut feeling,  without evidence to support it (but also without evidence proving the contrary) is just as irrational as believing in one or other God. In both cases you may have theories why something will happen the way you feel it will/why you believe in one or another deity, yet no concrete proof.

Kara: I've never accused you of insulting anyone. You stay very polite in your posts, and make a good debater. It's Kazan who worries me.
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Offline karajorma

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Quote
Originally posted by Stunaep
But Liberator does have a point, though his way of expressing it, is well,  you know. People who have lost everything (or never had anything to begin with), often turn to God, and the idea of Heaven and '**** as means of finding hope for a better future. Now unless you're one of those people who say that "If you're poor, then it's your own god-damn fault" (which is imo, about as stupid a statement that one can make), then that's gotta count as a good use for religion.


No it isn't. People in the same situation often turn to alcohol or drugs. That doesn't make it a good use for them does it?

Sure there are some people for whom religion makes a good crutch to lean on when your life turns to **** but lets look at the flipside of the coin. How many people don't do anything about the fact that their life has turned to crap because they believe that God will sort it out in the end?

Ask a psychiatrist about emotional crutches. He'll tell you that while some people may need them they'd certainly be better off if they could do without them.

Quote
Originally posted by Stunaep
Me, myself, just to get my views on religion clear, are pretty similar to Tiara. I don't believe in God, but I don't completely deny the possiblity of his existence either. I believe that there is neither enough evidence to support his existance, nor enough to disprove it.


Any atheist who completely denies the possibility of the existance of God is lying either to themselves or to you. However there is a level to that denial. It's the same as that the universe was created by a giant tapdancing mongoose. Sure the universe could have been created by one but why should should I walk about believing in one unless I actually meet the furry critter?

I can come up with 300 different unprovable theories for how the universe got started without breaking a sweat. They'd all be equally valid with the one that christianity puts out (some might even have less contradictions!). The point is that all of them would be highly improbable.

Quote
Originally posted by Stunaep
And since I do accept the general principles (NOTE the word principles) of christianity, I don't like when people insult other people just because their views seem 'irrational'.  


I however don't accept the general principles. While christianity has managed to stumble into some good consepts it's also picked up a huge number of bad ones. I'll give you an example. If it is proved that homosexuality has a genetic basis then wouldn't the way christians act towards gay people be irrational? In fact discriminating against someone on a genetic basis is no better than racism which is also irrational.
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Offline Stunaep

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In case the subject comes up again. . .
And for the last time, what the hell is wrong with being irrational? It's a completely human trait. One is never completely irrational, since everything one does makes sense to at least to himself, so what's wrong with being somewhat irrational.

As for the christian thing, Sure, harassing gay people is wrong, and yes, it's in the bible, but hey, the principles of christianism are the ten commandments. Jesus himself said that.

Quote

Originally said by Jesus
"And behold, one came up to Him, saying, "Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?" And He said to him, "Why do you ask Me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the Commandments." He said to Him, "Which?"  


These commandments, do just fine for the most part, I cannot say, I always follow them, but I accept them as the positive ideal. Why don't I see "Harass gay people" in these commandments.

As I've previously mentioned, the bible is full of inconsistencies. To take it all word for word, would be stupid. But these ten commandements, together with "Love thy neighbor..." and the best of all "Don't do to others...." are the things that Jesus, the center figure of christianity has himself said to be the principles. Everyone agrees on that. That, I accept. The  basis, of being a good a kind person, helpful, and friendly, is what Jesus was aiming at.

Quote
No it isn't. People in the same situation often turn to alcohol or drugs. That doesn't make it a good use for them does it?

Well, it's not like believing in God eventually kills you. Just like drinking moderately doesn't. Taking drugs, well, that's another matter entirely, but mostly, people who don't go to extremes in religious stuff, tend to get along just as well in life, as those who don't. And as opposed to turning to drugs and alcohol, turning to God, is a lot favorable. If they have to lean on someone, let it be God, rather than alchohol.
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Offline karajorma

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Quote
Originally posted by Stunaep
And for the last time, what the hell is wrong with being irrational? It's a completely human trait. One is never completely irrational, since everything one does makes sense to at least to himself, so what's wrong with being somewhat irrational.


There's nothing wrong with a little irrationality but you shouldn't base major life decisions on it.


Quote
Originally posted by Stunaep
As I've previously mentioned, the bible is full of inconsistencies. To take it all word for word, would be stupid. But these ten commandements, together with "Love thy neighbor..." and the best of all "Don't do to others...." are the things that Jesus, the center figure of christianity has himself said to be the principles. Everyone agrees on that. That, I accept. The  basis, of being a good a kind person, helpful, and friendly, is what Jesus was aiming at.


Here's the problem though. The 10 commandments are not the basic principles of christianity. The basic tenet of christianity is the belief in God and Jesus and his ressurection. No matter how much rationality you add to that in the form of sensible commandments (like not killing, stealing etc.) it's already tainted with irrationality.

Sure the non God related commandments make sense but they are far too entwined in the irrationality of the rest of christianity for you to be able to hold them up and say "See. Christianity is rational after all"

Quote
Originally posted by Stunaep
Well, it's not like believing in God eventually kills you. Just like drinking moderately doesn't. Taking drugs, well, that's another matter entirely, but mostly, people who don't go to extremes in religious stuff, tend to get along just as well in life, as those who don't. And as opposed to turning to drugs and alcohol, turning to God, is a lot favorable. If they have to lean on someone, let it be God, rather than alchohol.


My whole point is that people who turn to religion during periods of difficulty are mearly using an emotional crutch same as people who use alcohol or drugs. While that may be good in the short term if they then become dependant on the crutch it becomes a bad thing. Far better to solve the problem without the need of an emotional crutch in the first place.
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Offline Stunaep

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In case the subject comes up again. . .
Well, a lot of people aren't made like that. And it's doubtful we'll become like that any time soon (evolution does take millions of years). So for that time, I'll take religion over drugs.

As for the thing about the Jesus and his resurrection, those aren't things you base your life on. Sure, I can say that Jesus lived, died, and resurrected. That doesn't change my life one bit. Living, or at least trying to live according to the 10 commandments/Neighbor thing, that is what affects the lives of christians.
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Offline karajorma

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But they don't just live by the 10 + 2. They live by all the other irrational stuff too. I'd have next to no issues with christians if they just lived by the 10 +2. It's the gay bashing, sex hating side of christianity that I have a problem with and that is nothing to do with the commandments.
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Offline Stunaep

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well, I completely agree with you on that. I've never thought otherwise.

And guess what, there are christians, who don't use the irrational stuff, hell, the lutherianism basically evolved around throwing away the old and unnecessary irrational ****.

So there we are.
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Offline Kazan

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In case the subject comes up again. . .
Don't try to make me into a weak minded fool like you


Quote
Originally posted by Liberator
Regardless, one day, something will happen;


Oh! I just hit a key on my keyboard! something happened! oh I did it again! oh! oh! oh!


Quote
Originally posted by Liberator
You're fiance might be heavily injured in a car wreck,  


That could happen, it would suck balls too

Quote
Originally posted by Liberator
you might lose your job,


Jobs come and go, NEXT!

Quote
Originally posted by Liberator
you're children might get sick, you might get sick; /B]


mmmm medicine

Quote
Originally posted by Liberator
regardless, one day something will happen that makes you face your mortality.


I face my mortality every day, for someone of my philosophy every day is a battle and every day is a constnat reminder that we are mortal.  

Facing reality makes you stronger.


Quote
Originally posted by Liberator
At that moment, you will feel God asking to help with your burden.  


No, I will not, and I am extremely insulted beyond your wildest imaginations by you trying to say this.  I am not a weak minded, weak willed little coward like you.  My logic does not bend to irrationalism and emotions.

You know what happens when I die? I NO LONGER AM ALIVE - I NO LONGER EXISTS.

You are too afraid to admit that.  You are so afraid of taking responsibility for your life that you surrender your will to your imaginary skybeast.  You pretend that everything you do is in its plan, so if you screw up you can shift the blame, if something good happens it is its doing and it will do it again.

GROW UP


Quote
Originally posted by Liberator
Tiara, given your condition I'm surprised you don't agree, at least somewhat.


Tiara wasn't harsh enough with you i think.    She should have taken your head off
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Offline Kazan

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Quote
Originally posted by Stunaep
the lutherianism basically evolved around throwing away the old and unnecessary irrational ****.
/B]


except teh fundamental irrationalisms


_ANY_ irrationalism promoted as "fact" "reality" etc is a threat to modern civilization and the future of our species.


[At one point religion did serve a purpose for civilization and wasn't wholly a bad thing for civilization; but we have gone way beyond needing it and now it is dead weight that just causes wars, hatred, bigotry, etc]
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Offline Kamikaze

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Quote
Originally posted by karajorma

Read up on game theory. Axelrod's prisoners dilema experiments proved conclusively that the best way to coexist with other people also in the same situation is to play cooperative tit-for-tat with them (i.e you act nice and friendly until someone betrays you. Then you visit an exactly equal amount of retribution on them. Then you descry what they do. If they take it and don't do anything you goest back to treating them well. )




Game theory (which is a branch of math by the way) is not about ethics, morals or anything of the sort. It is all about optimal strategies in games, these optimal strategies are not necessarily tied to the same things as social guidelines. Trying to twist math to fit with social advice is not a good idea.

Why are we even arguing about the effectiveness of science to guide people to do "good" things anyway? Science is not meant for guiding people in societies. Don't try to compare mangoes and rhubarb.
Science alone of all the subjects contains within itself the lesson of the danger of belief in the infallibility of the greatest teachers in the preceding generation . . .Learn from science that you must doubt the experts. As a matter of fact, I can also define science another way: Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts. - Richard Feynman

 

Offline Thorn

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Quote
Originally posted by Liberator
I was refering to aldo's witicism, sorry you didn't pick up on that.

Regardless, one day, something will happen;
You're fiance might be heavily injured in a car wreck, you might lose your job, you're children might get sick, you might get sick; regardless, one day something will happen that makes you face your mortality.  At that moment, you will feel God asking to help with your burden.  

Tiara, given your condition I'm surprised you don't agree, at least somewhat.


Sooner or later you're going to have to realise that you cant go about thinking everyone has to have the same opinion you do. Have the same beliefs you do. One of these days you're going to run into reality and its going to kick your ass for being an arrogant prick. Not eveyone is as tolerant (or as far away) as the people here are. If people dont immediately agree with you, leave them the **** alone. Otherwise you're going to piss someone off, and your "god" wont do a damn thing about it because you brought it on yourself.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2004, 01:42:40 pm by 322 »

 

Offline karajorma

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Quote
Originally posted by Kamikaze
Game theory (which is a branch of math by the way) is not about ethics, morals or anything of the sort. It is all about optimal strategies in games, these optimal strategies are not necessarily tied to the same things as social guidelines. Trying to twist math to fit with social advice is not a good idea.

Why are we even arguing about the effectiveness of science to guide people to do "good" things anyway? Science is not meant for guiding people in societies. Don't try to compare mangoes and rhubarb.


Read up on Axelrod's experiment before you comment (It's covered quite well in The Selfish Gene by Richard Dawkins) as it's actually quite interesting.

I never said that Game theory was about ethics or morals. As you say it's about optimal strategies in games. However a series of experiments in the prisoners dilemma found that tit-for-tat was the best strategy and that furthermore that when a natural selection element was applied to the game they eventually ended up with an idea world where none of the participating strategies attempted to backstab any of the others and where any strategy which had attempted it had gone extinct.

That shows that although game theory doesn't give you orders on how to live your life it does point you in the right direction without the need for any religion.

Theists are always happy to say that atheists must be basing their morals on the religion. Axelrod's experiments prove that the rule "Try to be nice to everyone" is not just a form of humanism or biblically derived but can be derived from simple self interest.
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Offline Stunaep

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Quote
Originally posted by Kazan


[At one point religion did serve a purpose for civilization and wasn't wholly a bad thing for civilization; but we have gone way beyond needing it and now it is dead weight that just causes wars, hatred, bigotry, etc]


Now it also produces music, literature, philosophical threads like this, and generally nice people. THe fundamentalists, no matter what you think, are and have always been a minority. Earlier, they were just the minority with power.

Compare yourself to Steak. I'd choose his subtle irrationality over your 'insult-everyone-that-is-different' mentality any day.
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