[Slasher]

Continued...

[Gank]

Originally posted by ionia23
Your version of history is based on whatever you see on the X-Files.

Umm, the xfiles is a drama about aliens and the like, theres no actual history in it. Do you know what history is?

Originally posted by ionia23
Right, and you could easily bring in plenty more from that generation who would say it was.

I'm sure you could, but the quotes i the link I posted include the guys who were in charge of fighting the Japanese. You have better than that post it, else stfu.

Originally posted by ionia23
That does it. Go read the surrender documents yourself while you roast marshmallows on the rubble of the world trade center.  I am done with you.

The Japanese only surrendered when the US agreed to let them keep the Emperor, thats not an unconditional surrender. Doesnt matter what the piece of paper says, you can call a dog a horse but its still a dog.

As for the I am done with you, thats a great way of arguing your point, how old are you? 12? Are you capable of arguing your point without calling people terrorist supporting left wing conspiricy theorists? It makes you look like a narrowminded fascist racist bigot.

Originally posted by ionia23


It wasn't a mistake then.  It was a mistake now.  That's hindsight for you.

Arguing like a three year old, we didnt know they were bad when we were supporting them, we only found out they were bad when we got in trouble for supporting them. ****ing pathetic

[Ghostavo]

Chill out.... both of you...
Gank, do not insult 12 years old's.

Slasher, that was... unusual.

Originally posted by ionia23

Originally posted by mikhael
You're obviously not going to put your faith in ANY chunk of information that doesn't agree with your current fantasy of US political history.

Dude, I love my country, and I'm proud to be an American--but that doesn't mean I'm blind to our mistakes. Selling the weapons to Hussein was a mistake. Training his people to use and manufacture them was a mistake. Providing them with logistical and intelligence support was a mistake. This isn't surmise or guesswork or opinion--its the history of the seventies and eighties.

Nicauragua and Panama and Chile and the rest, those are part of our history. Denying them because they're inconvenient or give us a black eye denies us the ability to atone or to head off future mistakes of that sort.

It wasn't a mistake then. It was a mistake now. That's hindsight for you.

You mean being shortsighted is an excuse for making a mistake?

*blows up a random desert with a 100 megaton nuclear warhead*

Oops... I didn't know it would leave residual radiation!

[Tiara]

Originally posted by Slasher

Now I enter the thread laughing my ass off:



Earlier in the thread you guys thought you knew all about history and stuff. *buzz* You just scratched the surface Unless anyone has majored in history like me please don't to talk like you know how stuff worked and went down. You're making yourself look stupid

[Ghostavo]

Tiara, you still haven't replied to my question...

Originally posted by me
Tiara, I don't mean to be rude, but could you please give me at least some of those "instances in history in which events were triggered by 'good vs. evil' situations"?

And I (I only can say this for myself) know about history... just not the full totality of it. But still, that is impossible.

[mikhael]

Originally posted by ionia23


It wasn't a mistake then.  It was a mistake now.  That's hindsight for you.

I'd call abrogating the principles we claim to hold to in favor of political expediance a mistake. That makes it a mistake when it was done, and that makes it a mistake now. If you apply that one very simple test, you don't really need to rely on hindsight to tell you that you screwed up.

[Tiara]

Originally posted by Ghostavo
Tiara, you still haven't replied to my question...

And I (I only can say this for myself) know about history... just not the full totality of it. But still, that is impossible.

Didn't you read my post. ALL instances in history are ultimately based on Good & Evil, Right & Wrong.

It's just that to everyones perspective Good, Evil, Right, Wrong are all different things. Its relative.

Ofcourse there often a deeper mean, but at the very core it's always what the parties involved believe what is Good or Evil, Right or Wrong.

Example;

World War two:

German Nazi's think they are 'Good' and everyone not conforming to them is 'Evil'. They are right, everyone else is wrong. This is the main catalyst for the war.

This is the case with almost ALL conflicts. They do something because they think its the 'Right' thing to do. Hell, even Saddam thought he was doing 'Good' and that America was teh 'Evil'.

But I must say that this is never absolute, this is merely the core. There is no instance in history where this is the ONLY thing that caused anything to happen. It always needs other elements/catalysts.

[karajorma]

That's somewhat simplistic Tiara. There are plenty of occasions where people have done stuff they knew was evil or wrong because it had favourable results for them.

However if you mean that the general population who actually fought the war thought that they were being good then you're close to the way some soldiers thought. Many however knew that what they were doing was wrong but just felt they had no choice.

[Tiara]

Originally posted by karajorma
That's somewhat simplistic Tiara. There are plenty of occasions where people have done stuff they knew was evil or wrong because it had favourable results for them.

[/b]
And thus in their terms it was ultimately good. The means, in their case, did justify the end.

I know it is somewhat simplistic, thats why I said that this is just the core of things. But explaining those would cost me a few dozen pages *remembers the horrors of the essays she had to write in her final year*

However if you mean that the general population who actually fought the war thought that they were being good then you're close to the way some soldiers thought. Many however knew that what they were doing was wrong but just felt they had no choice.

I'm talking about the events in history, not the indidvidual person. That's a whole different subject.

[redmenace]

I am not going to bother to ready the past seven pages becuase I have no time to do so, but just want to say, Leave it to a socialist to make a pact with the Devil.

[Janos]

Originally posted by redmenace
I am not going to bother to ready the past seven pages becuase I have no time to do so, but just want to say, Leave it to a socialist to make a pact with the Devil.

PHAH!
Show me a "socialist".
We all know such things don't exist, all proof is just conspiracy.
Besides, if they existed - you weren't around when Marx was born, were you? So how can you know!
VIKTORIII

[Grug]

Dictatorship all the way...
All you need is an AI programed to do the best for the majority and the innocent...

*adds fuel to the fire*

[vyper]

This is getting tedious now.

[Grug]

hehe, it happens.

guess every1 has an opinion yet no way to implements them

-Grug

[Ghostavo]

Originally posted by Tiara
World War two:

German Nazi's think they are 'Good' and everyone not conforming to them is 'Evil'. They are right, everyone else is wrong. This is the main catalyst for the war.

This is the case with almost ALL conflicts. They do something because they think its the 'Right' thing to do. Hell, even Saddam thought he was doing 'Good' and that America was teh 'Evil'.

But I must say that this is never absolute, this is merely the core. There is no instance in history where this is the ONLY thing that caused anything to happen. It always needs other elements/catalysts.

Right isn't the same thing as good. Example like you have listed above:

In WWII, Germany's government thought that to gain popular support they could blame the jews along with other ethnic groups, because they had much more wealth in general than the "common" german, for the situation Germany was passing through.

Every nation does what they think is the "right" thing to do... for them!! They are trying to gain whatever advantage they want in comparison to other countries.

No country in history (that I remember, like you said, you are the one with the major, not me) did something that was solely based on "good vs evil". By country I mean government. The people governing a country might argue that they did this because it was "good" and their oponents are "evil", etc...

But no matter what they say, ultimatly they are solely trying to get power, nothing more.

[Tiara]

Originally posted by Ghostavo


Right isn't the same thing as good. Example like you have listed above:

In WWII, Germany's government thought that to gain popular support they could blame the jews along with other ethnic groups, because they had much more wealth in general than the "common" german, for the situation Germany was passing through.

Every nation does what they think is the "right" thing to do... for them!! They are trying to gain whatever advantage they want in comparison to other countries.

[/b]
- Right = good. For example: "I 'know I'm right, therefor I'm doing good."
- No, they didn't blame them to gain popular support. It probably did more of the opposite. They blamed them because they litterally saw them as second rate humans (Untermenschen).
- Yes, every nation does what they think is right. And thus they do what is good in THEIR eyes.

But no matter what they say, ultimatly they are solely trying to get power, nothing more.

And they want to get power because they think that is the right thing to do. And as I explained earlier, if they think something is right it is automatically good in their eyes.

[Rictor]

Not really, no. I mean, when the majority of the world's population agrees on certain "rules" (and they do), then violating those rules can be said to be "bad".

If you were to stack up the people on Earth who are aganst say, murder for profit, and those who aren't, you would see that there is no country who's population condones it by a majority. Nations have to play by the rules that their citizens endorse, and that means they are not free to do whatever they want. For all of American's past and future mistakes, I am fairly certain that were the people to be given a direct choice, with sufficient information to understand the situation, they would choose differently, that is to say they would choose not to perpetrate those crimes. Same for any country really, though not for any time. Thats the "problem of democracy", the people if left to their own devices would almost always choose differently than the politicians who are profiting from it. So, the people must not be allowed to have democracy, or atleast not real democracy, because they would just ruin it all.

As for the Jews, from what I know about history they were used as scapegoats due to their general wealth and well-being compared to other Germans. And yes, they were also regarded as untermenschen, but the two are not mutually exlusive.

[.::Tin Can::.]

Again, political debates create an everlasting argument...

[Tiara]

Aw, shut it Tin Can Don't want to participate, then don't.

And Rictor, it's quite hard to explain what I mean on a message board cause you seem to misunderstand me. Anyways, just let it be. This is a subject thats easier to teach my students then you guys on a message board

[redmenace]

Originally posted by Janos


PHAH!
Show me a "socialist".
We all know such things don't exist, all proof is just conspiracy.
Besides, if they existed - you weren't around when Marx was born, were you? So how can you know!
VIKTORIII

FINE, he and every other socialist that runs for office is a socialist in label only. They point still stands.