Author Topic: Spain say TTFN  (Read 16834 times)

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Offline Tiara

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Originally posted by ionia23


My points don't require multiple paragraphs of explanation because, well, I'm right.

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Offline ionia23

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Originally posted by Acer

The USA is wants most contries to disarm themselves especially of nuclear weapons, it wants india and paquistan to get rid of their nukes, and it doesnt want anymore countries to start making them, yet the USA has the largest atomic arsenal in the world and was the only country in history who ever dared to use a nuclear weapon against fellow humans (Iroshima and Nagasaki in japan).
 


The word you're looking for is Hiroshima, and I didn't see your sorry little country step up to help in 1945 so don't bag on us for our tactical decisions.  Japan started that crap, not the other way around.

And as a nuclear superpower, along with China and Russia, we have a responsibility to control the spread of nuclear weapons.  Despite all our tensions, those three nations have proven they have the maturity to handle possession of such weapons (which means, don't ever use them).  You think you'd get the same guarantee from Al Quaeda?
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Offline Rictor

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Alright, now let look at the actual record, not just your claims.

The US has used nuclear weapons in Hirshima and Nagasaki. They supplied biological weapons to Saddam and told him to use it on the Iranians, which amount to the same thing. Also, during the Vietnam war, Agent Orange ****ed up ALOT of people, who are to this day being born with birth defects. I don't know if there are more.

All these nations who you say are not to be trusted, they have NEVER used WMD. Their track record is much better than yours, so you to not get to pass judgement on them.

And if you really thinking that installing a dozen dictators around the world, which resulted in the death and torture of hundreds of thousands of people is the same as clear-cutting a forest, you really have no moral compass to speak of. Besides, it their own forest, they can do with it as they wish.

 

Offline ionia23

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You silly thing.  When Japan was trying to take over the world, there weren't any WMD's.  We built it first.  Saved a heck of a lot of lives on both sides of the equations.

Of course, this led to the cold war and a lingering nuclear threat.  Seeing as the creation of the atomic bomb was a scientific inevitabiility, I'm rather glad we found it first than, say, Nazi Germany.

Or Russia.

You're right, though.  It's their rainforest to raze as they please.  As long as that decision doesn't affect me, who cares.

Oops, almost forgot the "dictator" issue.  Fact:  They weren't when we backed them, and we can't be blamed for the crap decisions they made later.
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Offline Gank

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Quote
Originally posted by ionia23
You silly thing.  When Japan was trying to take over the world, there weren't any WMD's.  We built it first.  Saved a heck of a lot of lives on both sides of the equations.


Japan was willing to surrender but only on condition they could retain the emperor. The US did not agree to this and dropped the a-bombs. Then accepted Japans surrender and allowed them to retain the emperor. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were live test ranges, Japan was beaten long before they were nuked, they knew it and the US knew it but they wanted to test their new toys. I suggest you actually learn a bit of history before you shoot your mouth off any more.

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Oops, almost forgot the "dictator" issue.  Fact:  They weren't when we backed them, and we can't be blamed for the crap decisions they made later.

Bull****.

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and I didn't see your sorry little country step up to help in 1945 so don't bag on us for our tactical decisions.

Umm Brazil was an ally of the US during ww2, had troops fighting in Italy iirc. An intelligent person would have checked that out before they opened their mouth.

 

Offline Rictor

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Actually, they all were tyranical when you backed them. In South-America in particular, but also Saddam and the Shah. Its a well documented fact, so you don't have to take my word on it.

So what would have happened if Russia got their hands on the A-Bomb first? They would have bombed heavily populated cities with a staggering amount of civilian casualties? Oh wait...

 
 

Offline karajorma

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Here's one for the own goal section

Oh the irony

Let's hope they were all insurgents :D
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Offline Acer

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Umm Brazil was an ally of the US during ww2, had troops fighting in Italy iirc. An intelligent person would have checked that out before they opened their mouth.



Thats right, Brazil had troops fighitng in Italy. The reason we joined the war was that the german subs were sinking civilian cargo ships on the coast of brazil as they were carryng supplies to help the allied nations in the war effort.

Oh and the USA didnt do all the development of the A-bomb most of its design was made in germany, luckely for you einstein though that the nazi regime would use the bomb on the war so he stole the plans, went to the USA and there finished his work... How ironic.

 

Offline Acer

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Oh yeah i forgot:

"And most of the deforestation in the Amazon is done but sustenance farmers, a policy vehemently supported by your government. At the rate you're going, central Brazil will resemble Mars in 15 years."

The Amazon is in the north not in central brazil, thats were pantanal is... Get your geography straight.

 

Offline ionia23

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Originally posted by Rictor
Actually, they all were tyranical when you backed them. In South-America in particular, but also Saddam and the Shah. Its a well documented fact, so you don't have to take my word on it.

So what would have happened if Russia got their hands on the A-Bomb first? They would have bombed heavily populated cities with a staggering amount of civilian casualties? Oh wait...


Simple.  There wouldn't have been a series of bombings for surrender concessions, it would have been "payback", and there would have been a lot more of them.

No, you "claim" they were tyrannical because you're leftist.  No skin off my back.
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Offline ionia23

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Originally posted by Gank


Japan was willing to surrender but only on condition they could retain the emperor. The US did not agree to this and dropped the a-bombs. Then accepted Japans surrender and allowed them to retain the emperor. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were live test ranges, Japan was beaten long before they were nuked, they knew it and the US knew it but they wanted to test their new toys. I suggest you actually learn a bit of history before you shoot your mouth off any more.
 
Umm Brazil was an ally of the US during ww2, had troops fighting in Italy iirc. An intelligent person would have checked that out before they opened their mouth.


You mean your leftist, terorist-backing version of history?  Pfft, not with a gun to my head.

Fact, there's no way you could know if the US's secret intentions were to use Hiroshima and Nagasaki as mere "tests".  You're not that old.

Fact.  Japan's surrender had to be "unconditional", period.  They weren't willing to do this so they got smacked.  I have zero sympathy.  It ended the pacific campaign, so I'd suggest YOU learn a bit of history before you shoot off your mouth any more.
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Offline ionia23

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Quote
Originally posted by Acer
Oh yeah i forgot:

"And most of the deforestation in the Amazon is done but sustenance farmers, a policy vehemently supported by your government. At the rate you're going, central Brazil will resemble Mars in 15 years."

The Amazon is in the north not in central brazil, thats were pantanal is... Get your geography straight.


In other words "I'm too chicken to address the point, so I'll settle for petty details".  Okay by me.
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Offline ionia23

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Quote
Originally posted by Acer



Thats right, Brazil had troops fighitng in Italy. The reason we joined the war was that the german subs were sinking civilian cargo ships on the coast of brazil as they were carryng supplies to help the allied nations in the war effort.

Oh and the USA didnt do all the development of the A-bomb most of its design was made in germany, luckely for you einstein though that the nazi regime would use the bomb on the war so he stole the plans, went to the USA and there finished his work... How ironic.


I'll give you that on Brazil and WW2.

And, speaking of facts, since you want to nitpick.  The "conceptualization" began with a German, sure.  We took care of the "building of the thing".  

Yeah, how ironic.
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Offline Liberator

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Acer, you argue like a child.

The reasoning behind the use of atomic weapons(they were atomic not nuclear there is a difference that I'll explain in a minute) is this:

We did ask for a Japanese surrender.  They declined and said they would fight until the last.

Analysts determined that there would be over a million American casualties during the invasion of Okinawa and the main islands and at least that many on the Japanese side.  President Truman decided that instead of letting so many die when it could be averted was worth the loss of a few hundred thousand.  The first bomb was dropped on Hiroshima and then we asked for their surrender again.  They refused, then came Nagasaki.  We asked again for their surrender and they capitulated.  In all, something like 100 - 200 thousand died as a result of the inital blast and the resulting destruction and an additional 200,000 due to radiological effects.  It wasn't a pretty decision, in fact it was downright horrific.  But in the final equation aren't 400,000 deaths(many of which were quick and painless in the heat blast) better than 2,000,000 million deaths during a sustained invasion?  Learn history, it will change your outlook on and understanding of both you and the world around you.

BTW, the weapons used on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were atomic bombs.  They used an uncontroled fission reaction in a uranium warhead.  Most of the weapons in the American and Russian arsenals, and China I would assume I know little about their nuclear capability, are Nuclear weapons.  They generate an uncontrolled fusion reaction that almost literally brings the power of the sun down to earth.  The largest Atomic weapon ever tested was in the low megaton range.  The largest Nuclear weapon ever tested was by the Russians, it yeilded approximately a 57 megaton explosion.  By contrast the weapons used on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were approximately a kiloton yeild each.

The lessons are concluded for the day.  Did you enjoy your History and Basic Physics classes? ;)
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Offline Ghostavo

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Originally posted by ionia23
No, you "claim" they were tyrannical because you're leftist.


I find it funny that you think a person that wasn't put into power by the majority of the population of a country in an election is not a tyrannical dictator. Very interesting idea you have about that subject...

Oh, also I find it intriguing that you (in general) somehow find China to be "moraly wrong" by your standarts but still let them have WMD. Your excuse is also troubling:

Quote
which means, don't ever use them


Right... :rolleyes: buying an extremelly expensive stockpile of WMD but to never use them... :rolleyes:
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Offline ionia23

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Let's see here....

"A person who wasn't placed into power by the majority of a country is a tyrant".

Such as the current monarchy of England???  They didn't vote for them.  So they're tyrants.  Um, yeah.

To answer your other question:  It's called a "deterrent".  We have them, they have them.  If either shoots, the other shoots back and everyone dies.

A 10,000 megaton-exchange nuclear war cannot be "won" by anyone.  And yes, the mentality is "don't use them".  If the three nuclear superpowers were that stupid, we'd already be a minor species, if not an extinct one.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2004, 12:33:45 pm by 597 »
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Offline ionia23

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Quote
Originally posted by Liberator
Acer, you argue like a child.

The reasoning behind the use of atomic weapons(they were atomic not nuclear there is a difference that I'll explain in a minute) is this:

(etc..etc..etcc.)

The lessons are concluded for the day.  Did you enjoy your History and Basic Physics classes? ;)



:yes: :yes: :yes:
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Offline Ghostavo

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ionia23, who rules England? The Prime Minister or the Queen? As far as I know the Queen has more of a P.R. role. But you understood what I was trying to say, you just forgot to put "in an election". :p

Now to continue, you still haven't answered my question. Why have weapons you are not going to use? Your are going to use them sooner or later. Saying you are not going to use them... the "stupidity" in that would be to spend money building that stockpile...
« Last Edit: April 20, 2004, 12:51:56 pm by 1606 »
"Closing the Box" - a campaign in the making :nervous:

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Offline ionia23

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Originally posted by Ghostavo
ionia23, who rules England? The Prime Minister or the Queen? As far as I know the Queen has more of a P.R. role. But you understood what I was trying to say, you just forgot to put "in an election". :P

Now to continue, you still haven't answered my question. Why have weapons you are not going to use? Your are going to use them sooner or later. Saying you are not going to use them... the "stupidity" in that would be to spend money building that stockpile...


Good point, let me explain.

Nukes are a tough subject for me anyway.  I was one of many people over here who saw "Threads" in the mid-1980's: England's answer to America's very watered-down apocalypse film "The Day After".  I still have occasional nightmares about it to this day, scared me badly.

In trying to face that fear I studied everything I possibly could about nuclear war. Learned more than I really wanted to.  Anyway to answer your question:

What we're living in now is the consequences of yesterday.  The point of amassing these huge arsenals of WMD's (might as well call a spade a spade) is the principle of "Mutually Assured Destruction".  i.e.:  You may be able to destoy us utterly, but we can do likewise.  There's no point in fighting a war where everyone loses badly.

Mind you, it's not just the United States with a huge nuclear arsenal, Russia has one too, as well as China.  We sort of hold each other at an eternal standoff, though relations are a tad more cordial than they were at the height of the Cuban missle crisis.

There is simply NO WAY to defend a country against a nuclear strike, at least not yet.  You might recall Reagan's plan to put a network of missle-killing satellites into orbit which would allow for complete nuclear disarmament of America.  We simply wouldn't need the weapons anymore.

Yeah, and I've got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.

If we were to begin deploying a satellite network that would render the whole of North America invulnerable to nuclear attack we'd tip the balance of power scales badly, maybe even enough to tempt our counterparts into firing under the principle that they might not get another chance.  Or worse, that we'd be able to fire at them with impunity.  Not that I think we would, but what I think isn't important.

It's insanity that got out of control over 50 years ago and this is the end result.  Sure, some steps have been made to improve relations, reduce arsenals, control the spread of weapons, etc, and that's fine for Russia, China, and the US, but that does nothing for Israel, France, the UK, Pakistan, India, and North Korea.

Just envision it as two people with guns pointed at each other's head with death triggers on.  That's what the face of nuclear deterrence is.

A biological bomb is bad, a "dirty radioactive bomb" is really bad, chemical weapons are right up there too, but nothing comes close to the sickening firepower of a 5 megaton detonation.

The largest WMD ever detonated was "Tsar Bomba" by the former Soviet Union.  It was intended to have a yield of 100 megatons.  Unfortunately, this bomb would have been so filthy it would have raised the background radiation of the entire planet by 10 times.  With some adjustments they brought it down to 54 megatons.  The shockwave circled the earth three times and the flash was seen in London.   The cloud punched a hole into the upper atmosphere.  Yes, explosions can be made even bigger.

The Soviet army detemined that was no strategic purpose to a weapon of such destructive force.  No point in territory you cannot annex, ya know?  besides, it had to be flown on a slow moving cargo plane.  Not exactly dextrous.

Anyway, that's why you build them, so your opponents know what they're up against.  M.A.D., mutually assured destruction, what a wonderful acronym....
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