[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Bobboau
you didn't want us in there in the first place, but now that were there we shouldn't cut and run.
that's your position, right?
ut

Yep.  it was a mistake, but you can't run away from your mistakes - you have to go back, and fix them.  I was actually kind of hopeful when the war (such as it was) on the Taliban began - because I thought it would be a chance to actually make a difference.   The war itself was inevitable, but the aftermath offered an opportunity to make a positive statement.

 I.e. after the conflict, plunging billions into rebuilding the country into a thriving, democratic and independent nation - one with a modern infrastructure, high standard of life, and basically what we expect in our own countries (and take for granted).  But it didn't happen, and Afghanistan got swept under the rug as soon as another bogeyman came along.

[Acer]

The only problem with it is it sets the USA, UK and other nations with a strong moral and ethical code on the same level as N. Korea, Saddam's Iraq, and the other countries in the so-called "Axis of Evil", which lack such a code and is complete BS.

Funny you should say this... If my memory doesnt fail me, wasnt the USA that helped a military coup in Brazil in 64? One wich coused the death of houndreds of people? The disapearing of many more, that caused the brazilian people to lose the right of free-speech? that made many songs be sensored and their authors to be exiled? And do you know why all that happened? Simply becouse the brazilian president at the time (who was legally elected by the people) was more interested in helping the poor people than the American Banks. He was taken down by the army with the help of the CIA simply becouse he was focused on social causes rather than financial ones that would benefit the USA. Also wasnt the CIA who helped take down a bunch of other presidents in south america at the time? for the same reasons? hmmmm..... funny stuff, real funny good people getting tortured thx to your fine government.

Ah e tudo bem Ghostavo, é bom encontrar alguem que fala portugues por aqui

[Grey Wolf]

Another fine example was the US-backed restoration of the Shah of Iran. Protection of the property of the oil companies, IIRC.

[ionia23]

Originally posted by Acer

funny stuff, real funny good people getting tortured thx to your fine government.

Now now, unless you're Iceland, lets not to talking up our own nation's morality over another.

That is, unless you want to open this discussion up to mass deforestation in the Amazon.

Just a thought.

[Rictor]

Originally posted by Liberator


That's quite a cynical attitude you've got there, Ghostavo.

The only problem with it is it sets the USA, UK and other nations with a strong moral and ethical code on the same level as N. Korea, Saddam's Iraq, and the other countries in the so-called "Axis of Evil", which lack such a code and is complete BS.  Western Nations don't condone Rape Rooms or kill hundreds of thousands of their own citizens with their own military.  Evil Nations are those that promote, through action or inaction, or take part in evil acts, such as Rape Rooms or Mass Murder.

Two words for you: Islam Karimov.

Not to mention long, proud history of overthrowing democratic governments in favour of tyranical regimes who make Saddam look like an angel. Chile, Guatemala, San Salvador, Iran. Thats off the top of my head, I know for certain there are many more.

[Rictor]

Originally posted by ionia23


Now now, unless you're Iceland, lets not to talking up our own nation's morality over another.

That is, unless you want to open this discussion up to mass deforestation in the Amazon.

Just a thought.

Thats exactly what Liberator is doing, and your comments in the past have shown the your opinion is: US=good, anyone else=totrture chambers.

Lets talk about one nation's morality over another. America would come out very near the bottom. If you're right, you've got nothing to fear. Its all Liberal lies anyway, so indulge me.

[Ghostavo]

Acer, também acho que é bom encontrar finalmente alguém aqui que fale português já estava a ficar quase desesperado.



I don't remember much of the intro speach which had something to do with vents and stepping back and giving your lunch to Carl if you found him there , help!!

[wiki]Acer[/wiki]
[scp][/scp]

Se precisares de alguma informação não tenhas medo de perguntar.

P.S.
Finally my first welcome ... I hope it wasn't that bad!!

[Liberator]

Originally posted by Rictor
Thats exactly what Liberator is doing, and your comments in the past have shown the your opinion is: US=good, anyone else=totrture chambers.

Lets talk about one nation's morality over another. America would come out very near the bottom. If you're right, you've got nothing to fear. Its all Liberal lies anyway, so indulge me.

You're mischaracterizing what I said to marginialize me and my point of view, I resent this and it's not a good debate tactic, but it's what Lefties do when they don't have any constructive to say.

What I said was Ghostavo was placing the USA on the same level as N. Korea, Sudan, or China in terms of Human Rights.  This is a patent lie and he knows it.

We ain't perfect, we are gonna make mistakes from time to time, but we're going to do our best and make up for mistakes when we make them.

[01010]

.

[vyper]

[q]What I said was Ghostavo was placing the USA on the same level as N. Korea, Sudan, or China in terms of Human Rights. This is a patent lie and he knows it.[/q]

Only if you're talking about internal civil rights - anything outside the USA mainland thats under said influence... that's about on a par with China and such.

[Liberator]

What else would I be talking about?  I try to only make comments on things I have knowledge on, God knows I don't always succeed, but I do not to knowingly lie.

[Ghostavo]

No, I am placing every nation in the entire planet at the same level... did you even read what I wrote? I said that nations don't act neither on "good" nor "bad" "will" but instead they act according to what they think is the right move in order to gain power, influence or any other characteristic that allows them to do what they want and to "survive". Tell me, where did I say all those thing you are here telling I said? I didn't even mention the USA nor N. Korea, Sudan, China, etc... so please tell me, where did you exactly read those things?

We ain't perfect, we are gonna make mistakes from time to time, but we're going to do our best and make up for mistakes when we make them.

Yes, no one is perfect, but the USA acts like it is supposed to be perfect. It is ok to make mistakes, but to make them and then saying you didn't make them is not anyone's idea of making up for mistakes, especially from one country who is proud to be, and I quote "a christian democracy", it is sure odd that you were (or are, dunno about present day... that is up to them) trying to prevent everybody else you don't like the chance for such a society (is that a bad thing or a good thing?).

Please do not reply by insulting either me or anyone trying to make their stand. Especially with your mistake by not reading my post and then saying to someone else:

You're mischaracterizing what I said to marginialize me and my point of view, I resent this and it's not a good debate tactic, but it's what Lefties do when they don't have any constructive to say.

And no, I'm not a "leftie"!

[Rictor]

Yup, thats right. You seem to think that human rights violations perpetrated on a foreign population are somehow less evil than those perpertrated upon the domestic populace. Thats simply not true. The atrocities that happened under US guidance and with US support during the Cold War, they are easily on par with China & Co.

You keep bringing up the point how America may not be perfect but it is more or less good. Now, when you say this, are you reffering to the people or the government. Its an important distinction. The people are more or less "good", sure. The government, however, is not "good". They have brought misery to so many people time and time again, that I can only view it as the rule, not the exception. Would you like me to list off the examples of CIA coups which installed dictatorial, oppressive regimes throughout the world? They're quite numerous.

If a man steals once, I could let it pass. Who knows what circumstances surrounded it. Twice, maybe. But not 15 times, not 20. Same thing with foreign policy.

[vyper]

As a member of the foreign office said after ww2, the US is going to do what's best for everyone else - whether they like it or not.

[Bobboau]

"Would you like me to list off the examples of CIA coups which installed dictatorial"

you know I don't think I've ever seen a comprehensive list.

[vyper]

Dun be silly lads you'd bust HLP's bandwidth allowance for a year...

[Liberator]

Originally posted by Rictor
You keep bringing up the point how America may not be perfect but it is more or less good. Now, when you say this, are you reffering to the people or the government. Its an important distinction.

No, I'm afraid it's not because the government of America is the people.

@Ghostavo
That was more or less directed at Rictor and a few of the other unabashed American Leftists here.  I apologize.

[vyper]

[q]No, I'm afraid it's not because the government of America is the people.[/q]

Oh ffs...

[Zuljin]

Originally posted by Liberator


No, I'm afraid it's not because the government of America is the people.

[Rictor]

Originally posted by Bobboau
"Would you like me to list off the examples of CIA coups which installed dictatorial"

you know I don't think I've ever seen a comprehensive list.

neither have I. I've seen partial lists, but you'de more or less have to go to multiple sources to get the info.

Liberator: that would be the case if the people knew, much less agreed with the government's foreign policy. What percentage of the American people would you guess can name 3 countries where a CIA coup was staged, or 5 countries which are under unilateral US sanctions. Or 10 countries in which American troops are stationed.

As it stands now, Americans are groslly ignorant of their own nation's policies. Those that have even a basic knowledge of the world around them are branded by you as "intellectuals". I look forward to the day when all Americans know enough about politics to be called that, because that is the day that the American empire will crumble.

If you'de like, I could very easily lay the blame at the people's feet. There is part of me that would very much like to. But in truth, the people are guilty of nothing more than ignorance and apathy.