[ionia23]

Originally posted by Rictor


So this is what you do when you run out of arguements, is it? Deny that the US had anything to do with said event, and challenge me to come up with a source that you could regard as credible, which by definition would agree with you to some extent. I can't believe that I'm even ackowledging this line of thought. The atrocities commited in Vietnam are, what? I figment of my imagintion? Liberal lies? A conspiracy? No one is denying it but you, not even the people who commited them.
Guatemala.

I'd be silly to say the US had nothing to do with Vietnam.  That ain't the issue.  Blaming every dictator on us that you possibly can IS.

[Ghostavo]

Originally posted by ionia23
How about any 3 examples of the US "toppling a government for our own benefit" that served absolutely no other purpose than making money?

And in this very thread...

Originally posted by Acer
Funny you should say this... If my memory doesnt fail me, wasnt the USA that helped a military coup in Brazil in 64? One wich coused the death of houndreds of people? The disapearing of many more, that caused the brazilian people to lose the right of free-speech? that made many songs be sensored and their authors to be exiled? And do you know why all that happened? Simply becouse the brazilian president at the time (who was legally elected by the people) was more interested in helping the poor people than the American Banks. He was taken down by the army with the help of the CIA simply becouse he was focused on social causes rather than financial ones that would benefit the USA.

I'll have another one post another country... I want to see who's next

[ionia23]

Guatemala - The Banana War.  I figured that'd have to come up sooner or later, and even that took place 50 freakin' years ago that took ages to recover from.  American business interests putting the pressure on, assasinations, murders, oh my.

Indonesia - General Suharto's coup.  hundreds of thousands of Indonesians are slaughtered.  Again, 50 years ago.  And who was our ally in this?  Australia.  Nice country.  Doing a great job of wiping out it's own tribals. Ya.

Brazil - Military coup to take out Preident Goulart.  More fear-of-communism bullcrap from our past.  Same thing that ushered in the cold war, sanctions against Cuba, the Cuban Missle Crisis, Vietnam, "and God we trust", blah blah blah.  

Vietnam - Stop communism. Right.  bad idea.  Very bad idea.   Pretty much ended the draft and divided this country bitterly between the old and new generations.  It's still a hot issue with people like my grandfather.

All of this ocurring in the long wakes of World War II.

Assasination as a means of governmental change was stomped down by President Carter during his administration.  We had a few hotheads in power too.  Perhaps they wouldn't have been there in the first place if a certain number of European nations hadn't taken it upon themselves to strip-mine Germany after WWI, creating a perfect environment for Hitler to rise.  And perhaps a certain Asian nation could have left us the hell alone and not stirred up trouble. Cause-effect, cause-effect.

The whole thing was a big, stupid conflict over communism.  It may have made sense then, but it doesn't now.  That's hindsight for you.  You said these were all greed-money motivators.  So was France's motivation for staying out of this round of Iraq (russia's too).

The 50's and 60's are not a time period in American history I look upon with any fondness.  There was a crapload of overdue change going on here.  So if you want to debate history, lets get out the old Time Machine and go change a few things.  Better yet, maybe dragging out the people responsbile for this and prosecuting them in the nations they messed with.  Not a bad idea.

As far as being helpless to stand up to America goes, excrement.  We did it to England when they were the most powerful country on the planet.  I'm dealing with the here and now as much as possible.

[Ghostavo]

Er... is it just me or are you justifying these actions?

Never use "fear-of-communism" as an excuse if you don't know what it really means. Hell, you are practically saying we are right when we say these things, like you said:

How about any 3 examples of the US "toppling a government for our own benefit" that served absolutely no other purpose than making money?

What was the opposite idea of communism?

Perhaps they wouldn't have been there in the first place if a certain number of European nations hadn't taken it upon themselves to strip-mine Germany after WWI, creating a perfect environment for Hitler to rise. And perhaps a certain Asian nation could have left us the hell alone and not stirred up trouble. Cause-effect, cause-effect.

Go-hit-the-history-books, go-hit-the-history-books...

[Liberator]

Originally posted by ionia23
crikey, it's like arguing with shredded wheat...

It took you that long to figure that out?

[ionia23]

Originally posted by Ghostavo
Er... is it just me or are you justifying these actions?

Never use "fear-of-communism" as an excuse if you don't know what it really means. Hell, you are practically saying we are right when we say these things, like you said:



What was the opposite idea of communism?



Go-hit-the-history-books, go-hit-the-history-books...

Justify?  No.  understand? Unfortunately.

And I did hit the history books, thanks.

[ionia23]

Originally posted by Liberator




It took you that long to figure that out?

Yeah, no kidding.   Pass the milk and sugar, I'm starved.

[J3Vr6]

My brain hurts

[Ghostavo]

Then you have the 3 countries you asked for...

Also, I advise you review your sources on that paragraph I quoted in my previous post because, first of all it wasn't only european nations, second Hitler rising to power was not only a consequence of the conditions Germany passed through with the Treaty of Versalles (sp?) but also because of the "Great Depression". Third that certain asian nation that I believe you are refering to suffered from your actions as you suffered from them. Hell, you provoqued them too you know?

[ionia23]

Originally posted by Ghostavo
Then you have 4 of the 3 countries you asked for...

Also, I advise you review your sources on that paragraph I quoted in my previous post because, first of all it wasn't only european nations, second Hitler rising to power was not only a consequence of the conditions Germany passed through with the Treaty of Versalles (sp?) but also because of the "Great Depression". Third that certain asian nation that I believe you are refering to suffered from your actions as you suffered from them. Hell, you provoqued them too you know?

Fact:  Many nations make many shortsighted, stupid decisions.  What was done to Germany at the end of WWI was reprehensable, but it was obviously more than made up for the second time around.  I think that particular horse has been beaten around enough.

The US actions throughout all kinds of places during the 1950-1970 period amazes me.  In some situations, I can pull a "well, it made sense for then" attitude.  for others....I don't get it.  This was all cold-war crap.  "Stop the Reds, blah blah".  Idiocy, sure.

If you sat down someone like my grandfather, he'd tell you about how one of the principles of communism is "they eat dead babies".

He's 93, cut him some slack.

Myonly exposure to communism was anti-Red propaganda throughout the 1980's.  It was horsecrap.  I met one Russian in that time period, an astronomer who was nice to me.

I know enough about my country's action to know that they aren't all bad, or wrong.

[Genryu]

Originally posted by ionia23

France is next.  Such a peaceful, open-minded nation.  "The war against Hussein is wrong.  Damn those Imperialist Americans!  Oh, by the way, wearing Muslim headdresses is now illegal."

Just so you know, the law against headdresses is only for Public institutions, such as school, ministery and the like, and it's called enforcing laïcity. But then, it seems that this word is considered as an insult by a few people on this board

[Rictor]

ionia, the headscarf thing was done to preserve seperation of church and state, and yes I agree its bull****. Its very, very misguided. It makes no sense, but I guess thats policitics for ya.

[ionia23]

Originally posted by Rictor
ionia, the headscarf thing was done to preserve seperation of church and state, and yes I agree its bull****. Its very, very misguided. It makes no sense, but I guess thats policitics for ya.

Politics is a chess game where people like you and I are fed one by one into the meat grinder, soon to be **** out of the guts of the Wholesome Imperial Wealthy.  Politics also fascinates me.  Go figure.

I love my country.  It's nice to be in a place where I can talk all the crap I want about it and not go to prison, so long as I make no threats.  However, those rights have been quite trampled on since, well, yeah.

My government pisses me off and I vote accordingly.  I hate being held accountable for it's actions, hence the passion in my arguments.  I have the utmost respect for the Office, but no respect for the persons within it.  'ol King George can forget about my vote.  He didn't get it last time (not that it mattered, seeing as it was rigged anyway) and he won't get it this November.

Separation of church and state was never meant to deny the practice of a particular religion.  What was/is happening in France has already been happening here, and we're fighting it vehemently.  

Good christ, I think we just agreed on something.

[Grey Wolf]

The Cold War, in retrospect, is actually rather funny. The US thought that communism, as personified by the USSR (which was actually a socialist nation), was trying to take over the world. Little did we realize that the communist countries didn't like each other very much (the PRC and the USSR hated each other).

The USSR, meanwhile, was paranoid. They though all the other countries were out to get them. To prevent this, they tried setting up a Marxist buffer between Western Europe and the USSR.

Little did they realize that doing this would cause their paranoia to cease being that, and become justified. Our fear of a worldwide communist plot led us to set out to stamp out any trace of communism we could find. This led to such things as:
-The overthrowing of Iran's democratically elected government and their replacement with the Shah, which led to the rise to power of the Ayatollah Khomeini (sp?) and his theocratic government.
-Giving weapons to the Taliban in Afghanistan.

Meanwhile, the USSR tried to strike back for what they rightly perceived as an attack on them. This led to things like the Cuba Missile Crisis.

The entire affair was a case of mistaken intentions.

[ionia23]

Originally posted by Grey Wolf 2009
The Cold War, in retrospect, is actually rather funny. The US thought that communism, as personified by the USSR (which was actually a socialist nation), was trying to take over the world. Little did we realize that the communist countries didn't like each other very much (the PRC and the USSR hated each other).

The USSR, meanwhile, was paranoid. They though all the other countries were out to get them. To prevent this, they tried setting up a Marxist buffer between Western Europe and the USSR.

Little did they realize that doing this would cause their paranoia to cease being that, and become justified. Our fear of a worldwide communist plot led us to set out to stamp out any trace of communism we could find. This led to such things as:
-The overthrowing of Iran's democratically elected government and their replacement with the Shah, which led to the rise to power of the Ayatollah Khomeini (sp?) and his theocratic government.
-Giving weapons to the Taliban in Afghanistan.

Meanwhile, the USSR tried to strike back for what they rightly perceived as an attack on them. This led to things like the Cuba Missile Crisis.

The entire affair was a case of mistaken intentions.

Agreed, wholeheartedly.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by ionia23
and to address point #1:  So I should be able to sue gun makers if someone kills a member of my family with that gun?  Hell yes, I can go get paid now.  One small point.  Firearms have many peacetime applications.  Nuclear weapons do not (yet).  There's a huge difference between selling someone a gun and selling someone a nuke.

And there is a big difference between selling a gun to a rational human being and selling one to someone you know is crazy. If you sell a gun to someone who keeps talking to his invisible aunt gerold over his shoulder the entire time then yes you are responsible for everything he does with it.

The same goes when you sell chemical weapons to Saddam Hussein. What did you think he was going to do with them? Use them as a chemical feedstock to make asprin?

When America sold chemical weapons to Hussein they became responsible for their use against Iraqis and Iranians. Unlike guns there are no peaceful uses for nerve gas.

Go ahead. Defend America selling nerve gas to Saddam. This I want to see.

[Dark_4ce]

As a wise old hermit once said;

"politics is like ice cream. When its cold, its firm, malable, and you can put some decorations on it. When its warm, its runny, messy, and unpleasent."

Yeah...

[ionia23]

Originally posted by karajorma


And there is a big difference between selling a gun to a rational human being and selling one to someone you know is crazy. If you sell a gun to someone who keeps talking to his invisible aunt gerold over his shoulder the entire time then yes you are responsible for everything he does with it.

The same goes when you sell chemical weapons to Saddam Hussein. What did you think he was going to do with them? Use them as a chemical feedstock to make asprin?

When America sold chemical weapons to Hussein they became responsible for their use against Iraqis and Iranians. Unlike guns there are no peaceful uses for nerve gas.

Go ahead. Defend America selling nerve gas to Saddam. This I want to see.

Aww, dammit, I was hoping for a challenge.  Defend the sale of nuclear, biological, and chemical weaponry and/or the facilities to make them?  Piece of cake.  However....

Let us lay to rest the conspiracy theories about the US, the UK, France, and Russia selling nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons and/or the equipment to make them to rest in one easy sweep:

Where are they?

[Grey Wolf]

It's actually known fact that we sold all sorts of weaponry to Hussein. What happened to them? Probably used quite a bit, and resold the rest to build his palaces.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by ionia23
Let us lay to rest the conspiracy theories about the US, the UK, France, and Russia selling nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons and/or the equipment to make them to rest in one easy sweep:

Where are they?

What a load of crap. He used them! Do you think that a whole bunch of Iraqis just lay down one day and pretended to be dead from chemical attacks?