[madaboutgames]

I haven't seen a single GOOD (FS1 or FS2 Standard) Space Flight Sim, or Flight sim, that has a damned cockpit.
Reason;

Sometimes Realism Ruins Fun.

Sometimes realism adds more atmosphere thus adding to fun.

A first person shooter - can you see a weapon or hand?? And that tells you you are looking out the eyes of the character thus identifying with the weapon in hand.  If you play the game and it doesn`t have a weapon or anything similar then how can it relate?  Realism - if you where walking down a corridor with your rifle pointing down the corridor, would you see the rifle?  It doesn`t spoil the fun - it helps create more.

If you are in a cockpit of a star fury, would you see the frame?  Is it wise to assume that if a game has a cockpit view then it shows too much realism taking away the fun?

FS2 is a space combat SIMULATION, what is a simulation?  realism or fun?  It has both elements!  So is it fair to say Realism ruins fun? or is it a contradiction?  

[kasperl]

and, one more time, for those that have reading issues:

"EVERY FEATURE WILL BE OPTIONAL AND OFF BY DEFAULT."

[Fineus]

Meh, just make it possible to turn it off - everybodys happy - problem solved

[Deepblue]

I still dont see why we cant just do it the way Nico already has.
Despite that, I made one too.
HERE

[QuantumDelta]

If it's just a flag to turn it off fine, I wont argue it's implementation as a feature, since, for some bizarre reason people like it.
Manic;
I said "Good" Games.

Madabout;
If you ever play against me, or, even with me in a multiplayer build, or on vanilla FS2, you will see exactly, why I make the comments I do in terms of realism.

normal flight sims with gravity bore me, because they're too slow, too easy, too predictable, have easy to calculate limits and of course, are far more limited than games which decide realism isn't, all that important.

Of course some people like realism, hense the whole UT/Quake vs HL/CS/OFP etc.

Don't get me wrong, some genres benefit, greatly from realism, but generally speaking it is of my .......experienced, oppinion, the further "Flight" Simulators are from true realism, the better off they are.

Haven't you ever, ever stopped to question why most Space Sims/Flight Sims are NEVER EVER near the top or at the top of the chart?
Cuz most of them are obsessed with real physics/astetics, and, to the common and the most elitist gamers, boring to hell.

FreeSpace has absolutely no realsim to it;

Subspace,
Alpha 1's performances,
Ship Physics,
Missile Physics,
Science,
The list goes on.

Most of that, is what made the game good.

Again;
If you ever see me fly an eri, perse, or even an MK1 -- You'll know why I say realism = as fun limiting as it is imagination limiting.

¬.¬

[Lightspeed]

The very good thing about FS2 is that practically everything is possible with a bit of skill & practice

I know no other game where you could possible become so intouchable / unbeatable as in FS.

[QuantumDelta]

Originally posted by Lightspeed
The very good thing about FS2 is that practically everything is possible with a bit of skill & practice

I know no other game where you could possible become so intouchable / unbeatable as in FS.

Bingo in two lines

[Nico]

Originally posted by QuantumDelta

Don't get me wrong, some genres benefit, greatly from realism, but generally speaking it is of my .......experienced, oppinion, the further "Flight" Simulators are from true realism, the better off they are.
 

"breathes"
[SIZE=10]BULL****[/SIZE]

Don't you go and take your darn tastes as a rule.
Geez, pisses me off.
From my "experienced opinion" ( ), plain shooters get boring very fast, that's why we're modding FS2, btw.

[redsniper]

...
...
... did he just say Tie Fighter wasn't a good game?

[QuantumDelta]

Yes, he did.
Then again, he hasn't seen a good star wars game for it's time that has/had more than 8 colours.
Since every game they've brought out was either;

Crap that sold simply because of it's liscence.
Crap that sold simply because of it's liscence.
An actually semi-decent game that got killed by idiots whining and patches being implemented to nerf the crap out of everything.

mmkay?
Me No Likie Lucas Arts.
It's the reason KOTOR is actually paletable.... since Lucas kept his damn hands off it.

As for plain shooters, Nico;

Come fly with me on PXO.
See if you call vanilla FS2 Plain after that.

There are far more levels to this game than most of the people who frequent this forum are capable of producing ¬.¬


edit;
Before anyone *****es;
I'm refering to piloting skill not mission/model/program design.

[Unknown Target]

Originally posted by QuantumDelta
If it's just a flag to turn it off fine, I wont argue it's implementation as a feature, since, for some bizarre reason people like it.
Manic;
I said "Good" Games.

Madabout;
If you ever play against me, or, even with me in a multiplayer build, or on vanilla FS2, you will see exactly, why I make the comments I do in terms of realism.

normal flight sims with gravity bore me, because they're too slow, too easy, too predictable, have easy to calculate limits and of course, are far more limited than games which decide realism isn't, all that important.

Of course some people like realism, hense the whole UT/Quake vs HL/CS/OFP etc.

Don't get me wrong, some genres benefit, greatly from realism, but generally speaking it is of my .......experienced, oppinion, the further "Flight" Simulators are from true realism, the better off they are.

Haven't you ever, ever stopped to question why most Space Sims/Flight Sims are NEVER EVER near the top or at the top of the chart?
Cuz most of them are obsessed with real physics/astetics, and, to the common and the most elitist gamers, boring to hell.
¬.¬

If flight sims bore you, then you're obviously not playing them right. Flight sims are all ABOUT the limits. Unlike FS, which doesn't have any limits on your movements, I think flight sims are MUCH harder, mostly because you actually have to know what you're doing. If that's not your cup of tea, well, turn down the realism level. But think about it, if you're playing a Flight "sim" then what's the point of doing that? It's about simulating actual flight.
The thing about FS2 is that it's all about gunnery skills. There's no lateral movement, and it's all about putting crosshairs on target. Don't get me wrong, that's fun, but that's a different experience from a flight sim, and you can't really compare the two. A flight sim is all about taming your envireoment, and using it to your advantage, pushing your aircraft as far as it can go, and then going one step further, all in the name of getting behind that bandit.

[Sticks]

normal flight sims with gravity bore me, because they're too slow, too easy, too predictable, have easy to calculate limits and of course, are far more limited than games which decide realism isn't, all that important.

If you've ever taken a 9G split-S and planned out your angles and speed in just a way that you have those few seconds to select your radar MFD, select the proper target, and launch that last AIM-120 right up your bogie's tailpipe (Falcon 4.0) AND can still call that easy and slow (and the worst offense of all, limited), I pity you. Many real life pilots would disagree.

That, my friend, is an excellent sim.

[QuantumDelta]

Originally posted by Unknown Target


If flight sims bore you, then you're obviously not playing them right. Flight sims are all ABOUT the limits.

As I explained in my post.
It's those limits that bore me.
It makes my opponents even MORE Predictable and easy to prey on than in FS.
They limit themselves too easily, whilst I will occasionally do things like control stall or airbreak / flap stop to get the upper hand.
Simple, simple games because they follow rules.
Rules make things easy.
Easy makes things boring.

Unlike FS, which doesn't have any limits on your movements, I think flight sims are MUCH harder, mostly because you actually have to know what you're doing.

Irony is with this, if you know what you're doing they're infinitely more boring because, as I have said a few times now if you don't seem to get it you will with this post, knowing the limits means you win, period.
Skill is purely and simply ability to calculate more than just ability to adapt.
Even the most advanced of the jet fighter sims which have actual Close To RL-dog fight engagement rules as BORING.

If that's not your cup of tea, well, turn down the realism level.

That's what FS is for.

But think about it, if you're playing a Flight "sim" then what's the point of doing that? It's about simulating actual flight.

Hense, I don't play them anymore.
AirForce Pilots go through how much training?
And most of that is the technical side of things.
Since the technical side is removed and you don't need to waltz around like a panzi for an hour and a half checkin your aircraft before you fly a mission, it's not realistic, and it's not something that's all that close to reality in most respects other than the physics, which uhh...is the thing which makes the game predictable.... theme coming through..?
Your opponent comes at you, can only do one of a few things, fights normally over (IRL/In Realistic Simulations) before you even approach visual range.
Fun! ¬.¬

The thing about FS2 is that it's all about gunnery skills.

LOL
I invite you to take any ship you like, I will not fire at you, you may use as many reloads as you like, and weapons you like, until you give up and admit that is a flaw in itself.

There's no lateral movement, and it's all about putting crosshairs on target.

Heh, plenty of it if you know how to get the fighters to do it.
Then again IIRC on Vanilla FS2 Lightspeed, Myself and a few other pilots are capable of forcing the ships to break their "Speed Limits" because of the way the game works.
You can get them to go faster than their afterburner will bring them to max...
----

Heh, Like I said, levels you guys mostly aren't even aware of.

Don't get me wrong, that's fun, but that's a different experience from a flight sim, and you can't really compare the two.

Uhuh.
They're two different styles of game.
Same rules govern most games, though.
Heh, Being good at FS2 is, in my books;

Being able to out turn everything.
Being aware of what EVERY SINGLE SHIP Regardless of numbers, on the battle field, is doing at any one moment in time, enemy and friendly.
Being able to dodge an infinite amount of missiles coming in from multiple angles without using counter measures.
Being able to hit people with primaries and secondaries whilst evading these missiles.
Being able to manage shields and energy systems including the emergency dump command in these situations.
Being able to Setup up kills for other people by making an enemies flight path predictable, since they're following your own.
Being able to force your enemies to collide into eachother resulting in eventual death or unfavourable fighting positions whilst in a more than 2v1 situation.
Being able to accurately predict your enemy.
Being able to CONTROL Your enemy.
Being able to read your enemies mind from how he/she is flying.
Being able to deal with any tactic no matter how "cheap" they are that your enemy can throw at you.
Being able to tactically prepair for ANY SITUATION and given the correct resources for the mission (EG; One human Wingman), complete any mission within reason (Some objectives ARE impossible, like destroying a Sathanus with no missiles Trebuche up, or bombs).
The list goes on.
And I have only just touched on the GENERIC Good FS2 Pilot Qualities.

 A flight sim is all about taming your envireoment, and using it to your advantage,

Heh, As I said, you're limited by your imagination when you play these games, it's not just about taming the environment, sometimes the random elements can be used to advantage as well, it doesn't always pay off, but, most of the time, shutting off your engines for no apparent reason and shoving on the ECM Jammers then firing off missiles tends to = People pwned from no where.
Just another little trick that worked in more than one game.

pushing your aircraft as far as it can go, and then going one step further, all in the name of getting behind that bandit.

....Different from FS how?
See list above.
Learn to turn an Eri faster than most people turn in a Perseus or a Uly and I'll begin to believe you know what you're talking about.

Sticks;
I stand by my comments.
Other than Falcon 4.0 (Which is ALRIGHT, like JP3 Mediocre) the last flight sim I enjoyed as a flight sim was F15frickinE Strike Eagle.

And, Yes, angles, speed, timing, radar ping, target adjustment, and firing is what I call simple, and slow, compared to the stuff I do in my Perseus.

[mikhael]

Wow.

an0n and rictor no long share the "most arrogant dickhead" title.

[QuantumDelta]

Fly me.
Then make up your mind whether I am talking arrogence or conviction of confidence.
Thin Line.
One I walk regularly.
The difference is obvious though, the more you know of my character.

[mikhael]

What would that prove? That you're a tenth as good as you imagine yourself to be? Who cares? Its a GAME. Even if you're as good as you seem to think you are, you're good at a GAME. It has no meaning, no purpose, no importance. You'll still be an arrogant dickhead, but you'll be an arrogant dickhead who can play a video game.

Wheeeeee!

[QuantumDelta]

Ahh, feeling threatened now, heh.
Because I was more than willing to put my money where my mouth is?

Arrogance is;
The act or habit of arrogating, or making undue claims in an overbearing manner; that species of pride which consists in exorbitant claims of rank, dignity, estimation, or power, or which exalts the worth or importance of the person to an undue degree.

Where have I said anyone is worthless because they can't fly?

Thanks but You be wrong.

Lightspeed is capable of confirming these traits whether he agrees with me this much on this issue or not, simply because he is capable of displaying them as well.
He has also seen me display them on multiple occasions, including when I haven't played the game for over a year -- first time back.

Arrogant isn't the word, find another one, whether it be insulting or not, should you find a definition that is actually correct, I'll tell you.
Since you don't know me, how can you judge me?
If you were going by the strictest (above) definition of arrogant, that would actually be what you just displayed, in your posts above.
Since, they have no content, other than flames.
Cheers.

edit;
btw, just incase you do mis-read the above definition I'd like to point out on of the keywords in it that maybe skipped and would change the meaning of said definition.


Exorbitant;
Exceeding all bounds, as of custom or fairness: exorbitant prices.

[Sticks]

AirForce Pilots go through how much training?

A lot.

And most of that is the technical side of things.

No. Knowing a number of actual pilots I would say it's about 50/50. However, how much technical knowledge do you need to pilot a Perseus? The answer is, of course, zero. So, how can you call these things simple?

Display of prowess in an arcade shoot em up is not grounds for calling an obviously vastly deeper sim "bad."

I would even argue that you have far more limits in FS2 due to the simplistic nature of the physics and weaponry. Anyone can sit around and evade missiles all day long in FS. Arcade sims tactics generally consist of a simple "how fast can I jam my joystick in direction x," which, while fun, are certainly what I would call simple. There's no real thinking involved.

None of this is to say that there aren't valid strategies at times. However, the depth and breadth of true flight sims require that you be on your feet at all times. It's not a matter of you having more kills than the next guy, it's about not getting killed...ever...all the while running through your head everything that you need to be worrying about. AA, SAM sites, other bogies, radar prescence, contact with your group, aerodynamic issues (speed, altitude, angles), etc. Surely none of this is "simple."

[Langy]

I think the problem is that he likes fast-paced games (like FS2) and thinks that games that make you think (like most heavy flight sims I've tried) are too slow. Probably because they, in general, are a lot slower than FS2. Because FS2 is an arcade game and is very, very unrealistic, with players able to kill huge numbers of enemy ships without being hit, much less shot down. Meanwhile, in a realistic flight sim, the gameplay is both slower and generally less 'intense' - there are less badguys to kill. This is good, because each of those badguys is harder to kill because of the limits that are imposed upon you. At least, that's how it is in a decent realistic flight sim.

Note that I'm not trying to say anything bad about anyone, either Quantum Delta or Sticks. Just that QuantumDelta likes a different type of game than Sticks. And that's perfectly acceptable. It also means that this entire conversation doesn't matter at all, not to mention being completely off-topic.

[mikhael]

Originally posted by QuantumDelta
Ahh, feeling threatened now, heh.
Because I was more than willing to put my money where my mouth is?

Feeling threatened? no. Feeling annoyed because you're a prick, yes. You can "put your money where your mouth is" all you want, that doesn't make the opinions you express gospel.

Since you don't know me, how can you judge me?

I can judge you on the only yardstick that matters: the attitude you portray here. You're a prick, and yes, indeed, an arrogant one.


arrogant: having or showing feelings of unwarranted importance out of overbearing pride; "an arrogant official"; "arrogant claims"; "chesty as a peacock"

I'd say your prior behavior picks you out as 'showing feelings of unwarranted importance out of overbearing pride', indeed.