Author Topic: A sad day to be a veteran  (Read 14995 times)

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Offline mikhael

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A sad day to be a veteran
When you can and do sweep away anything anyone says by blaming it on Americans and all that that in your mind entails, no use trying to hold a...whats the word..discussion.

Thanks for saving the rest of us time.
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Offline Rictor

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...well I'll be damned. Speak of the devil...Over here, I mentioned how there are a few nutjobs in every faction, but they don't necessarily reflect the views of the entire population, or have any real power to speak of.
Quote
But the thing is, this wasn't done on a national level. It was one cleric, and god knows there's bound to be a few nutty ones in a large enough group. He isn't speaking for any large faction, and certainly not for the Iraqi people. I doubt he even speaks for al-Sadr, cause if he supported this, he would have made the annoucement himself. He's radical, yes, but he has held off on directly declaring war on the US or the IGC.

Its like the one US general that said how Allah is the devil and he's a fake god and how his (the general's) god is the true god. There's a few loons in every bunch.

I never knew the specific nutjob I was reffering to, one General Boykin, was advising the Pentagon on interogattion techniques. This ain't gonna go over too well with Muslims.

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=5109973
« Last Edit: May 12, 2004, 02:17:15 am by 644 »

 

Offline ionia23

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Quote
Originally posted by Rictor
I never knew the specific nutjob I was reffering to, one General Boykin, was advising the Pentagon on interogattion techniques. This ain't gonna go over too well with Muslims.

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=5109973


Evidently a certain anti-american around here never bothered to read any of Amnesty International's reports on interrogation tactics used in prisons in, say, Turkey, Iraq, Afghanistan.  If anything, they'd be dissapointed we exercised too much restraint.
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Offline Rictor

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So, you think its valid to align your moral compass around Chinese prisons? or Saddam for that matter? I keep hearing "well, at least the US is better than Saddam". Sure, he was worse, but there will always be someone who is worse.

Yeah, Pol Pot was better than Hitler, Pinochet was better than Stalin, the US is better than Saddam. Thats a child's game.

 

Offline ionia23

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Originally posted by Rictor
So, you think its valid to align your moral compass around Chinese prisons? or Saddam for that matter? I keep hearing "well, at least the US is better than Saddam". Sure, he was worse, but there will always be someone who is worse.

Yeah, Pol Pot was better than Hitler, Pinochet was better than Stalin, the US is better than Saddam. Thats a child's game.


It's better than where your moral compass seems to be aligned....
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Offline Fineus

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A sad day to be a veteran
As far as I can tell, his seemed to be aligned the same as mine - all life is equally important - one middle eastern man is worth the same as any American mans or visa versa. The US has killed large amounts of innocents and this fact was shrugged off as unavoidable casualties in the "peace keeping" process.

By no means does that make beheading a man right. But it does somewhat alter the nature of any moral high ground any Western country tries to take in the conflict. Pound for pound the US has killed more innocents than anyone else involved - but because they're not from America there's no song and dance and shout of tragedy for them (or so it seems).

And no, I'm not anti-American for the sake of it. I judge what I see based on the evidence at hand - not on anything else. Don't even start labelling me with that ****.

 

Offline Flipside

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The problem with arguments like this is that they can be chased and argued about all the way back to the beginning of history almost. 'Who did the most torture'. Probably, if it were possible to add up the amount of people tortured by each nation over the course of history, not only would all the numbers come out pretty much the same, but would be so high as to surprise every single person here.

 

Offline ionia23

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Originally posted by Kalfireth
As far as I can tell, his seemed to be aligned the same as mine - all life is equally important - one middle eastern man is worth the same as any American mans or visa versa. The US has killed large amounts of innocents and this fact was shrugged off as unavoidable casualties in the "peace keeping" process.

By no means does that make beheading a man right. But it does somewhat alter the nature of any moral high ground any Western country tries to take in the conflict. Pound for pound the US has killed more innocents than anyone else involved - but because they're not from America there's no song and dance and shout of tragedy for them (or so it seems).

And no, I'm not anti-American for the sake of it. I judge what I see based on the evidence at hand - not on anything else. Don't even start labelling me with that ****.


Hey, you said it, not me.
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Offline Fineus

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No doubt, but in recent history America has been no angel. Not to say any other country has - but people seem to be discussing moral high ground here - and America as a country is in no position to take that high ground given the actions of her military (for fairness sake note: from time to time. I'm not saying the US military is totally barbaric, merely that they've commited some pretty nasty stuff too - which seems to have been conveniently swept under the carpet for arguements sake).

 

Offline ionia23

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Originally posted by Kalfireth
No doubt, but in recent history America has been no angel. Not to say any other country has - but people seem to be discussing moral high ground here - and America as a country is in no position to take that high ground given the actions of her military (for fairness sake note: from time to time. I'm not saying the US military is totally barbaric, merely that they've commited some pretty nasty stuff too - which seems to have been conveniently swept under the carpet for arguements sake).


I'd hardly call having the prisoner abuses played round the clock, Congressional hearings about them, a personal apology from the President, and court martials for all involved being "swept under the carpet".

The actions of our military are the actions no one but us and are allies were willing (or able) to take, and we've been criticized for it since day one.  Some kid in Iraq gets his hand run over by a tank, everyone calls Jihad.  Some contract worker trying to help rebuild infrastructure in Iraq is butchered alive in front of the whole world, we "get what we deserve".

We're expected to be divine, omnipotent, perfect in every way, and we're not.  But at least we're doing something.

I hope it turns out to be the right decision.
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Offline Fineus

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I dont recall saying you got what you deserved (even if someone else did). My point is that you can't be suprised that people feel negative emotions in your direction when these things happen.

God himself could apologise for something that has gone wrong in my life - but I'd still feel raw about it if it was serious enough... the death of a loved one for instance. As someone who's totally uninvolved from this conflict both by nation and any other possible relationship - I can afford to see things this way. No doubt if I had a friend or relative who went out to fight and died doing it - I'd feel a different way.

But those in charge can't let their judgement become clouded by personal involvement. That's why they're in charge.

And you as a nation are expected to make the right decisions because you make decisions. I'm not suggesting for a moment that apathy is the solution but I am saying that anyone who takes responsibility should be made to answer for the choices they make - and if they start telling people what is "right" and what is "wrong" then they should act according to what they say - not a separate agenda to suit themselves.

Unfortunately, nobody in a position of power works that way.

 

Offline Flipside

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America don't have the moral high-ground simply because they are there in the first place. That's the whole problem, you can't just turn up, blow stuff up and then say 'Hey your liberated, look grateful!'.

With Iraq, you have a country with a hell of a lot of people with guns, who have both been fed a complete string of lies, half-truths and exaggerations about each other, not a good situation to be in. I remember when I worked for the Police, one of the Anti-Terrorist squad was shown a Video with a mock IRA attack. The vehicle used was a white transit van. The next day, the Terrorist squad were stop-searching all White Transit Vans, just in case one of them held terrorists. It's the same assumptions being made here in a way ;)

America has been applying it's internal politics to the world stage of late, that is the problem. As usual, the American government decided to call in only experts who would say what they wanted to hear, and thinking the world would be ok with that. Or rather, expecting their own people to accept their word without question.

It's like our own troops allegedly gunning down innocent people. I find it hard to believe of my own army, who I have a lot of respect for, but if it has happened, then I must accept that.

However, that said, I'm waiting on my decisions, Rumsfield has already made it clear he knew about the nakedness, the humiliation and the dietary changes. I have a feeling that if direct orders to torture the prisoners are going to come to the public eye, it will be within the next couple of weeks. If I see those, then I think the whole world will have a long hard think, and, sadly enough, some of the world will judge ALL Americans on it, partly because they will be told all Americans are like it, partly because they want to believe it.

It's a pity really, as I've said before America is founded on good principles, which have been twisted by certain people, and, as they say, the Road to Hell is paved with Good Intentions :(

 

Offline ionia23

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Originally posted by Flipside

It's a pity really, as I've said before America is founded on good principles, which have been twisted by certain people, and, as they say, the Road to Hell is paved with Good Intentions :(


I'm at a loss for words, that sums it up perfectly.  :yes: :yes: :yes:
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Offline ionia23

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Originally posted by Kalfireth
I dont recall saying you got what you deserved (even if someone else did). My point is that you can't be suprised that people feel negative emotions in your direction when these things happen.

God himself could apologise for something that has gone wrong in my life - but I'd still feel raw about it if it was serious enough... the death of a loved one for instance. As someone who's totally uninvolved from this conflict both by nation and any other possible relationship - I can afford to see things this way. No doubt if I had a friend or relative who went out to fight and died doing it - I'd feel a different way.

But those in charge can't let their judgement become clouded by personal involvement. That's why they're in charge.

And you as a nation are expected to make the right decisions because you make decisions. I'm not suggesting for a moment that apathy is the solution but I am saying that anyone who takes responsibility should be made to answer for the choices they make - and if they start telling people what is "right" and what is "wrong" then they should act according to what they say - not a separate agenda to suit themselves.

Unfortunately, nobody in a position of power works that way.


You hit the nail on the head perfectly.  In a messed up way, I think i was trying to say that.  I'm also mental.:yes:
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Offline Rictor

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Nice attempt to downplay the crimes in Iraq there ionia. "Some kids gets his hand run over by a tank". You make it sound like they're just being cry babies and *****ing about a little boo-boo.

Thousands of innocent have been:

-Killed
-Detained without proof and without the right of due process.
-While in prison, they have been maltreated with the current allegations only being the tip of the iceberg,
-Had their possessions (money and valuables as well as guns) confiscated.

Now, one American gets killed and its the end of the world. A tragedy, yes, as are all civilian deaths. But America by no means has the moral high ground here. If I were to post a thread every time an Iraqi civie got killed, well you can imagine...

Flipside: thoughn I agree that we can't play the blame game down through all of human history, it is reasonable to expect some accountability for recent actions, say in the past 50 years or so. I'm not about to start blaming Turkey for crimes by the Ottoman Empire, but the actions we are talking about are happening right now, as we speak, and will continue to happen. I think its perfectly reasonable to hold America, and every other country, responsible for what they have done.

 

Offline Flipside

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Well, strictly speaking, even in the last 50 years there are countries that have tortured 'more' people, but, as an example let's take England and America, the two 'most involved' in this.

Right, now 'England and America' go to Iraq to oust Saddam, that is the 'motto' as it were of the invasion, and even then with extreme internal strife regarding it's legitimacy, especially in the UK's case. So, here we have one iinstance of the countries involved, and already there are people who do not agree with it.

Later on a small percentage of those people, 'The British and American Army' are ordered by an ever smaller number of people 'The British and American Government' to invade Iraq. So, you are saying that each entire country is responsible for the behaviour of a small percentage of it's people for actions that the largest group were completely unaware of? (Not the invasion, of course, the torture)

Recompense will need to be made, I don't doubt that, and those guilty at any level should be dealt with, whether by trial by judge or by vote, but to hold an entire country responsible is just a bit much to my mind.

 

Offline Grey Wolf

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EDIT: Wrong thread.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2004, 05:54:56 pm by 102 »
You see things; and you say "Why?" But I dream things that never were; and I say "Why not?" -George Bernard Shaw

 

Offline Rictor

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Wow, there must be gremlins sneaking in and editing my posts while I'm not looking. Where have I implied that all of America is responsible, even once?

Yes, the Army and government are responsible. But there is something to be said for the citizen's role in a democracy. In theory, there should be no matter that is not open to public scrutiny. Which in the case of prisons, amounts to giving human rights groups the power to thouroughly and constantly examine prisons (military or civilian) for such abuses. And then, if they find such abuses, have them investigated, and not by the guilty parties since that would invalidate the whole process. The problem lies in the fact that the vast majority of prison abuses can be easily kept hidden. These guys were just stupid to take pictures. But lets assume they had half a brain and did not proudly show off the evidence. The abuses would still have occured, but no one would pay attention. From now on, soldiers will know better than to indicte themselves so blatantly. There is no great mystery as to what goes on in prisons, its pretty much common knowledge that the guards are not the kindest of people. I just can't bring myself to believe that I am supposed to ignore the abuses that are going on, simply becuase they are not reported. Obviously, you don't need special training to tell you not to torture detainees. So, its a rather sadistic nature that resulted in what we're seeing now. Your opinions may well differ, but I believe that this is the mentality of a great many soldiers, who will undoubtedly commit such actions in the future, but be smart enough to keep the evidence to themselves.

Give any man such power of others, and more often than not he will abuse it. And this goes doubly so for soldiers who are taken from among the less educated, and go in with the type of mindset that  Lynndie England had, which was (and I'll try t the find the article) more or less "lets go kill us some Arabs"


edit:
rape stories are comming to light. Until now, it has mostly been focused on male detainees, but its seems the women got a piece of the pie too.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1214698,00.html
« Last Edit: May 12, 2004, 06:32:01 pm by 644 »

  

Offline Setekh

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Quote
Originally posted by Flipside
It's a pity really, as I've said before America is founded on good principles, which have been twisted by certain people, and, as they say, the Road to Hell is paved with Good Intentions :(


That's the story of the world. And remember, it's always like that - bad things can only be born out of goodness first. Genuinely bad things require intelligence, time, and power to come into effect - and these things are, in themselves, good. That's why I think evil is a parasite to good, rather than an equal and opposite force.
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