[vyper]

I saw dildoes in this here thread somewhere... that's representative enough.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by Corsair
And HLP is representative of the entire world?

Nope. Just a sign that maybe people should stop saying it on HLP.

[Rictor]

ionia: why is it a bias? as in all things, this depends on where the two sides are. this is the middle ground. an unjust bias in favour of palestinians would include giving them all of Israel back, kicking out the Israelis, and letting them exact whatever vengance they feel necessary. I accept that Israel exists, and thats not going to go away, despite the shall we say, less that exemplary way in which the nation was created. and besides, did you ever consider that maybe you Israeli friend is biased, seeing as he, you know, lives there.

so, whats in it for Israel? well, and end to suicide bombings for one. The people get to feel safe, for the first time in decades. and for another thing, they stop being viewed as the number 1 threat to world peace.

the reason there is not more in it for them is because they already have it pretty good as it stands. if the US wasn't backing them, they would have it a hell of a lot worse, and would therefore stand to gain much more. but really, why does there have to be anything in it for them? is it wrong to call on an oppressor to stop oppressing, without giving them some sort of concilation prize in return? all this does is use the same standard for both Israelis and Palestinians. The Palestinians don't get any sort of special benefits that the Israelis don't. they each get sovereignty, and all that that entails.

[ionia23]

Funny thing, these forums do present some interesting opportunities.  We've got people from all kinds of countries with many different perspectives debating these issues.  Gives a much more broad picture, you know?

[Crazy_Ivan80]

Originally posted by karajorma


And that's the defense Israelis use whenever they're caught out. It's absolute nonsense almost every time of course.

and that's the defense of those who do hate the country.

[Rictor]

Ivan,

Israel != Jews != Zionism

I can be opposed to Zionism, and be opposed to the policies of the nation of Israel, but have nothing at all against Jews. I am a Jew.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

Originally posted by Rictor
Ivan,

Israel != Jews != Zionism

I can be opposed to Zionism, and be opposed to the policies of the nation of Israel, but have nothing at all against Jews. I am a Jew.

I'm not denying that.

I'm just saying that the quote I took is something which is used by many who are utterly upposed to Israel and/or jews in particular to hide their ulterior motives.

[Gank]

Originally posted by Crazy_Ivan80


quote all you want, personally I think you hate the people of israel.

Anti-semite now am I? Israels last line of defense, when you cant defend your position, call them Nazis. Absolutely ****ing pathetic

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by ionia23


Okay, at last I get your position with total clarity.

Nice ideas.  What's in it for Israel?

And you better be open-minded about that.  I work with a man who served in the Israeli army who would have some very choice words about your extremely biased position.

But seriously, what does Israel get out of this?

What - and this is an honest, open question - does Israel get out of the present situation, beyond perpetual guerilla warfare?

[Gank]

An excuse to keep expanding.

Btw I believe I know the fairest way to sort it out, anyone who was born or who's parents were born in the region gets to stay, anyone else get thrown onto a plane or boat.

[ionia23]

Originally posted by aldo_14


What - and this is an honest, open question - does Israel get out of the present situation, beyond perpetual guerilla warfare?

A door that remains open, and some measure of dignity.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by aldo_14
What - and this is an honest, open question - does Israel get out of the present situation, beyond perpetual guerilla warfare?

The chance to fill the West Bank with their own settlers and then claim the land as their own.

The chance to surpress their next door neighbour, keep them weak and ensure that it always has a government of their choosing.

[ionia23]

You know, their weak and oppressed neighbors could try a brilliant concept like, ya know, 'no more bombings'.

[karajorma]

Yep. I agree wholehartedly. The palestinians would get further following the example of Ghandi than with the sucide bombing route.

 Notice I never said that the palestinian side weren't every bit as stupid and pig-headed as the Israeli side.

Personally I think that when they almost had the peace agreement which fell apart over ownership of Temple Mount the US should have just threatened to drop a fuel-air bomb on the place if they couldn't learn to play nice.

[Flipside]

LOL I agree with you there Kara.

I think it's got to the 'grudge' stage to be honest, it's no longer about 'this' or 'that', it's about 'us' and 'them'. It's a lot lot harder to stop that kind of hatred, because you have 2 'countries' that have never known anything else other hatred and mistrust for each other.

[karajorma]

Yeah but you can point at Northern Ireland as an example and show that they can (mostly) stop kicking the **** out of each other and try to act like actual human beings.

[ionia23]

Agreed and totally agreed.

[Gank]

Originally posted by karajorma
Personally I think that when they almost had the peace agreement which fell apart over ownership of Temple Mount the US should have just threatened to drop a fuel-air bomb on the place if they couldn't learn to play nice.

Damn man, even the yanks arent stupid enough to do something like that. You know how many times Israeli settlers have attacked the Al-aqsa mosque and tried to blow it up to make way for their new temple? If the US did it for them we'd be looking at ww3 before the pieces hit the ground.

Originally posted by karajorma
Yeah but you can point at Northern Ireland as an example and show that they can (mostly) stop kicking the **** out of each other and try to act like actual human beings.

Except it took 400 years after the plantations to get to this point, and still the leading political party on one side wont sit down and talk to the other.

[Corsair]

Originally posted by Flipside
LOL I agree with you there Kara.

I think it's got to the 'grudge' stage to be honest, it's no longer about 'this' or 'that', it's about 'us' and 'them'. It's a lot lot harder to stop that kind of hatred, because you have 2 'countries' that have never known anything else other hatred and mistrust for each other.

Flipside's got it.

I think we have a winner...

[karajorma]

Originally posted by Gank
Damn man, even the yanks arent stupid enough to do something like that. You know how many times Israeli settlers have attacked the Al-aqsa mosque and tried to blow it up to make way for their new temple? If the US did it for them we'd be looking at ww3 before the pieces hit the ground.

All they'd have had to do is successfully bluff both sides into thinking they'd do it.

Besides if the yanks said they'd blow up anything the Jews built there too it would have prevented the problem. If both sides are going to act like children maybe someone should start treating them like children.