[karajorma]

Originally posted by Sandwich
Given that the stated purpose of this whole Operation Rainbow mess is to weed out militants and uncover the smuggling tunnel networks, does it seem reasonable that those soldiers were, as Bob said, in the process of searching the house? Most tunnel exits aren't in the open, after all.

Doesn't mean you don't worship the same god Sandwich. Just that one of you has got your facts wrong

*There now follows 20 pages of arguements about WHO has got their facts wrong*

[Crazy_Ivan80]

Originally posted by vyper
I still find irony that the jews are persecuting a group of people off their homeland...

they are not.

get your facts straight.

[Sandwich]

Originally posted by Reez
The problem with your Brazil and Spanish comparison is that Brazil was a Portugese colony, which is right next to Spain. So Spanish and Portugese are big langauges there. And remarkably, they sound similar to the untrained ear. Kinda like Chinese and Japanese.

Ok, fine, but that still doesn't negate my analogy.

Originally posted by Reez
On the other hand, the Muslims and Jewish people lived together for quite a long while as a community. And one thing you can say about Muslims is even though we've had our history of pillaging and razing hell (like everyone else), we've never burned down either Christian or Jewish churches (or any building of worship for that matter). Because we've had respect for other religions throughout our history.

Ex-Muslims who convert to Christianity in places like Saudi Arabia and Egypt have been dragged from their homes and are never seen or heard from again. Is that "respect", or do you refute that such events take place in our day and age?

Originally posted by Reez
You can't say the same about the Catholics and the priests. "You heathen! Jesus is the son of God! And little 8 year old Jimmy is my *****!"

Don't get me wrong - I might just dislike the Catholics as much as you do (if you do, that is... whatever - I don't like them). They have put a bad face on Christianity for centuries, and continue to do so today. They are (generalizing here) hypocrits.

Originally posted by Reez
By the way, nice comments on the suicide bombings. Also, nice neglect on the curfews and the house arrests that involve Palestineans getting shot if they're coming home late for work or the house arrests that involve Palestineans getting shot when they try to leave the house in search of water.

Trust me when I say that when I was on checkpoint duty a few years ago in the West Bank, seeing the Palestinians trying to get to work inside Israel, trying to get to school, trying to support their families - my heart went out to them.

We were told to thoroughly check every single person and vehicle at a certain checkpoint one time in order to make a huge traffic jam, because there was specific intel that a suicide bomber was trying to travel through our area to Jerusalem. So we did. The people would plead with us to let them just pass through to go to teach at a adjacent school, "...look, it's right there!"

I couldn't figure out why we were told to make a traffic jam - obviously the terrorist would see that we were checking everyone and turn around to try at some other checkpoint or at a later point in time. But when I got back to base, I found out that that was the point - we didn't want to catch him per se, as much as simply prevent him from making it through to Israel.

But because of that, we had to cause much grief to the Palestinian public. I was saddened to see it, but I would have felt even worse had the terrorist gotten through our checkpoint because we were lax and blown up a few mothers and children out shopping.

Originally posted by Reez
And when you fight in populated areas, civvies get shot and killed. That's why people fight in populated areas. It's called raping and pillaging.

Err, no. Raping is, err... well, I'm not gonna go into detail because this is a public forum. But I trust you do know what it means.

Pillaging is when you, usually as an armed force, raid and steal belongings from civillians.

How's fighting in populated areas equate to either one of those?

Originally posted by Reez
You need to stop watching FOX news. It's caused your mind to go into an advanced state of decay.

I (proudly) do not watch TV with any sort of regularity. We have no TV at home. The only time I see TV is if a cafe has one playing, or when I travel back to the US to visit relatives.

So there.

[an0n]

I stand by my assertion that all religion is bull****.

Judaism, Christianity, Islam. It's all a stack of crap.

The exception being Taoism, because that's not really a religion.

Why the **** do people need an all-powerful deity looming over them telling them what to do? Is it really so ****ing hard to just do the right thing and be nice to people?

[Turambar]

No, actually Sandwich, all three of the monotheistic religions worship the same god.  In Islam, Jews and Christians are calles "People of the Book"  which means that they also recieved the "word" from God or his Representatives.  The Qur'an mentions Moses and Ismail and Jesus all as prophets, along with Muhammed.  The very first peple to be nice to the Muslims were the fine Jews living in the city of Medina.  

According to the books, Muslims, Christians, and Jews all worship the same god, whether you like it or not.

[karajorma]

It's just that if you're a christian, muslim or jew you believe that the other two religions are worshiping him incorrectly

[Black Wolf]

I vote we convert everyone to Zoroastroism by force. It has a much cooler name.

[Rictor]

Well, thats pretty irrelevant. People are allowed to believe in whatever they like, and I respect that. But the second that someone's faith allows (or prompts) them to kill someone, thats clearly innapproriate (a bit of an understatement).

Sandwich: I'm inclined to believe you when you say that your heart goes out to the Palestinians and all that other stuff you said. But it is important to distinguish between the person and the institution. Just like in slavery, the slaveowner can be a really nice guy. Loves his family, contributes to charity, is nice to his slaves etc etc. So, as a person, he can be great. But the institution of slavery is terrible. No doubt about it.

I do not doubt that there are certain soldiers within the IDF who are  nice people, and feel terrible every time they have to inflict harm on the Palestinians people. Even though I suspect that they are not the majority, but you would know this better than me. But, as an institution, there can be no doubt that the IDF is bringing great suffering to the Palestinians.

If the Israeli people put half as much effort in to resolving the situtation in a peaceful manner as they do in trying to prevent terrorist attacks, do you doubt that peace could be achieved? As ionia pointed out, and I must say that I agree with him fully on the matter, the Palestinians only want to eat, work, sleep, shop, pray and live like everone else. What they are asking for is not unreasonable. And yet, it should be quite obvious that Sharon has ZERO interest in peace. The constant state of emergency, which as you said Israel has not left since its conception, allows him great powers which he does not want to give up. If the people are always scared of the next suicide attack, they turn to him for protection since they see no other way out. The illegal settlements, the apartheid wall, and constant killing of Palestinian civilians, the checkpoints and all that other stuff, those all act AGAINST the interests of peace. A permanent solution was within grasp many times, and each time Sharon has seen to it that it never happens. I'm not saying that the suicide bombings are not contributing to this, they are, but Sharon has much more power to decide peace/war than any Palestinian leader.

Give a man a fish and he will eat for one day. Teach a man to fish and he will eat for the erst of his life. It is in the best interests of the Likud party that Israel is always hungry, and has to turn to them for food. They fight against any efforts to teach the Israelis how to fish, to establish permanent peace. Would you rather give the Palestinians a few acres of land, which is theirs to begin with, or live in fear for your family the rest of your life? To me, it seems like a no brainer...

[Reez]

Originally posted by Sandwich


Ok, fine, but that still doesn't negate my analogy.

It does, because the Brazilians had a new culture forced on them, really negating any similarities. There's of tribes in the Amazon in Brazil that have had little human contact cuz they're still hiding from the "white skins". I'm sure they sound, act, and do things much differently than the Spanish do, while the people living in Rio really don't.

Ex-Muslims who convert to Christianity in places like Saudi Arabia and Egypt have been dragged from their homes and are never seen or heard from again. Is that "respect", or do you refute that such events take place in our day and age?

I'm also talking past tense. Nobility and respect don't exist in this age anymore, with anyone. Especially with very rich people, because in general, very rich people get very rich by screwing very poor people out of their money, sanity, and health.

Don't get me wrong - I might just dislike the Catholics as much as you do (if you do, that is... whatever - I don't like them). They have put a bad face on Christianity for centuries, and continue to do so today. They are (generalizing here) hypocrits.

I don't dislike catholics. I'm a fan of hyocrites, it makes my day all the more amusing.

But when I got back to base, I found out that that was the point - we didn't want to catch him per se, as much as simply prevent him from making it through to Israel.

But because of that, we had to cause much grief to the Palestinian public. I was saddened to see it, but I would have felt even worse had the terrorist gotten through our checkpoint because we were lax and blown up a few mothers and children out shopping.

I wasn't talking about the checkpoint lines. I was talking about the occupational army squads who pose the 3 and 4 o'clock curfews, shutting down entire villages for half the waking day. They didn't care if it was a kid who was coming in late, a mother, a father, or a "terrorist" (which is basically a militant without any money to buy weapons), they shoot em dead. Neither side is in the right, i think we all understand that.

Err, no. Raping is, err... well, I'm not gonna go into detail because this is a public forum. But I trust you do know what it means.

Pillaging is when you, usually as an armed force, raid and steal belongings from civillians.

How's fighting in populated areas equate to either one of those?

God I was tired last night.... running on two hours of sleep.  Not a good idea. Anyways, my bad use of a term. But it's kind of stupid to think that if you fight in populated areas, civilians won't die. It's like saying you expected them to survive because they have super powers and the bullets should have bounced off their chests. I wish i could come up with a better analogy, but I'm still tired... anyone else here just finish IB exams?

[an0n]

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man how to fish and he no longer has a use for you.

[Rictor]

'xactly.

[an0n]

Or there's the Ferengi equivelants:

Give a man a fish and you're getting no net gains while expending the price of 1 fish.

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man how to fish and you can sell him rods and nets.

[Rictor]

Some analysis from Rafah Kid:

"Military sources said that troops had spotted the approaching demonstrators, among them armed men, and asked a helicopter to fire a warning missile at an open field. But when the crowd continued to march, a tank fired three shells at the nearby abandoned building to ward the protesters off.


An open field? Near Sea Street? Are you joking you morons? The closest there is to a field near Sea street is the wasteland next to the border, and that is streets away. The excuse is not even transparent, it is a blatant lie. I wonder if they have video evidence of the 'armed men' - No I don't expect so either.
________________

Last night the Al-Najar hospital was finally able to announce the names of the victims from the demonstration.

They were mostly children: Mobarak Alhashash, 9, Waleed Abu Kamar, 12, Mohammed Mansour,13, Fouad Alsaka ,13, Ahmad Abu Alsaeed , 14, Rajub Barhoom, 18,Al'a Shekh Elid ,19, Mohammed Abu Sha'ar,20, Shady Alimghary,20 ,Osama Abu Nasir ,24, Saeed Joma, 24, .

they've also got some photos of the victims if you want to see that. I'll post some more stuff if I find relevant info.

edit:

Up to the moment, the latest figures of Palestinians killed by the IDF since the beginning of "Operation Rainbow" in Rafah on 13th May 2004, have reached 58. Several hundred Palestinians have now been injured.

Thats 58 people in 7 days.

[an0n]

He has a point.

We know all American choppers, jets and long-range missiles mount cameras. So where's the footage?

[Reez]

God should turn Israel into the next set for the Dawn of the Dead. People should jump out of their graves, and beat the **** out of Sharon.  Then they could put it on CNN, and interview Arnold Schwarzenneger for a solution.

[Woolie Wool]

there goes the racism again, and a very poor knowledge of reality to boot.

The fact remains that the governments of Middle Eastern Islamic nations have turned their countries into absolute hellholes through their own incompetence and corruption and are using Israel to divert people's attention away from how much their respective nations suck.

Many of the preeminent Islamic leaders want Israel and the western world to be destroyed, and the western world wants said Islamic leaders to be brought to justice (pardon the cliché) or eliminated. The violence can only continue to escalate into full-scale global war.

[Rictor]

bleh, wrong button again

[Gank]

Originally posted by Sandwich
Given that the stated purpose of this whole Operation Rainbow mess is to weed out militants and uncover the smuggling tunnel networks, does it seem reasonable that those soldiers were, as Bob said, in the process of searching the house? Most tunnel exits aren't in the open, after all.

They werent searching anything, mostly just lying on the floor.

Originally posted by Sandwich
I never said the IDF as a whole did that, did I? As a matter of fact, I specifically said it wasn't an IDF-sponsored thing, didn't I?

Aye and I specifically said it may happen in a handfeul of cases, you seem to be implying its an unofficial policy. Tell me, what did your unit do for the people whose houses you destroyed in Jenin?

Originally posted by Sandwich
I don't expect them to march en masse into the immediate area of a gun battle between "militants" and army forces, either. Call it mob stupidity, but it happened, and that's part of the reason why those people were needlessly killed and injured.

There was a gun battle now? Dont recall seeing this in any of the reports or hearing any firing in the footage I saw

Originally posted by Sandwich
Yays! I win!

Win what? You asked me to rephrase what I said, I refused. What exactly did you win?

Originally posted by Sandwich
Your "logic" is pretty messed up there, dude. Just because two people groups have lots of things in common doesn't mean that they worship the same god. We've already been over this issue here on HLP - apparently you missed it - but there's no escaping the fact that the 3 religions are NOT worshipping the same god. Compare what's written in the Koran and on the Dome of the Rock with Christianity's Jesus being the Son of God. "Allah has no son", etc etc.

Do you consider jews to worship the same god as christians?

Originally posted by Sandwich
"Bent noses" - You're sounding like a Nazi depicting how you can tell apart Jews from the rest of the world (note that I'm not calling you a Nazi, please). Firstly, that assumption is wrong - "Jewish" noses cover the whole spectrum, just like the noses of the rest of the population of the world.

"JewFro" - cute. But watch TV next time there's a suicide bombing or they show Israeli public - there's no basis for that statement.

Hes probably assuming most jews are semites, only 16% of Israels jews actually are.

Originally posted by Sandwich
And those lingual comparisons, while true, mean absolutely nothing. That's like saying that the Brazillians and Spanish must worship the same god.

Actually they do. though Brazilians speak portugese iirc.

[Flipside]

You are right Woolie, they have often used this as an excuse, but right here, right now, people are dying, I don't give a flying rats turd if they are Moslim, Jewish, Christian or Brian the Squidgable Squiddians, and from the looks of things, people are being shot at simply for being in the IDF's way.
I really don't know what to say.....

[Woolie Wool]

It will get worse on both sides, trust me.