Originally posted by Gank
50 years, right back to when US, European and a smattering of other nationalities decided the land the palestinians lived on belonged to them because their God had said so in a 2000+ year old book
Huh? I'm not following you here...
Originally posted by Gank
The jews came from judae, which is in the west bank, not israel. Israel isnt about recovering land lost by the jews centuries ago, because they were never driven from that land. Its about taking land off people because God said it was yours not theirs.
The Jews came from the Land of Israel, period. That land was divided amongst the 12 tribes. One of those tribes was the tribe of Judea, which is the southern half of the modern-day West Bank, which is also known as Judea and Samaria.
Originally posted by Gank
By preventing the family from leaving at gunpoint they are effectively using them as human shields. Thats what holding enemy civilians against their will when under fire is. I'm not reffering to it in the literal sence like the other idiot suggested. Say for example you were chasing palestinian gunmen and they took refuge in a house which contained an israeli family, you'd be less inclined to fire on the building wouldn't you?
Yes, I would. But the point is that those soldiers,
by the very fact of them lying on the floor, were not in that house in order to to anything inside - they were not holding the family hostage, they were hiding from external enemy fire. But with the family inside with them, they had no choice but to be prepared for a possible assault from that direction as well.
All I'm saying is that it's a matter of cause and effect. The soldiers were most likely being shot at (cause), so they took cover inside a building (effect). There were possible hostiles in that building (cause), so the soldiers covered them with their rifles (effect).
That scenario is, in my professional opinion based upon a small amount of experience and large amounts of training for such situations, most likely. It is highly unlikely that the soldiers were being shot at (cause), so they searched for a building with a Palestinian family inside to use as human shields (effect).
Originally posted by Gank
Such as?
Such as the multiple times the Koran states that
Allah has no son - a point which directly contradicts the fundamental tennet of Christianity that
Jesus is the Son of God.
Originally posted by Rictor
Yeah, it would seem the public is pretty polarized. But I would assume, and correct me if I'm wrong, that the hawks far outnumber the doves.
Israeli society is composed of humans, not birds. Please, I don't mean to be offensive with this, but keep your biased, not-so-subtle analogies to yourself. Thanks.
Depending on the recent events at any given time, you could say that one voting side outnumbers the other. Look at the history of right-wing / left-wing Prime Ministers Israel's had over the past 15 years - virtually an equal balance.
Originally posted by Rictor
Right. But I'm not sure how capable the Palestinians as a people are of restraining the militants. Israel has a centralized government and a centralized Army, whereas the Palestinian "army" is a mish-mash of various groups, individuals and so forth. The closest thing that Israel has that would be a parallel is some of the militant settlers, who act of their own accord.
Yes, and I admit that this is the one point that makes me shake my head in wonder whenever Israel demands that the Palestinians / PLO / whoever stop the terrorists. We've seriously screwed up the Palestinian Police (although they had it coming when they started fighting alongside the terrorist groups against the IDF), so the Palestinians are left with no way to effectively fight terrorisim. Definitely a screwed up situation.
Originally posted by Rictor
I don't know the dictionary definition, but it essentially means "a society divided along ethnic lines, with only one group in possesion of all the power and the wealth".
South Africa is the classic example.
Ahh. Well, that's unfortunately accurate, since the Palestinians are living in poverty far worse than you or I. Just as long as you realize that the fence/wall (I'll get to that below) is not set up along those lines
because one side is better off than the other. It's there to prevent terrorists from crossing over, nothing more.
Originally posted by Rictor
C'mon now. A 5+ meter concrete fence, with gun towers and barbed wire? Its bigger (and more dangerous) that the Berlin Wall. The attempt to call it a fence instead of a wall is just a very poor attempt to make it sound better than it is.
Its like saying "No, we're not firing you, the company is undergoing a structural readujstment, during which our staffing policies may change slightly."
Allow me to straighten out the twisted perspective of the security fence the media has presented to you.
The security fence is, along the majority of its length, just that - a fence. Motion sensors, barbed wire on top or whatever, but it's a chain-link type fence, not a concrete wall.
However, in areas where the fence passes near a settlement that has come under fire in the past, or between a stretch of Israeli road that's been firen upon and a Palestinian village, the fence indeed becomes a 5+ meter concrete barricade. You can shoot through a fence, but not through a concrete wall.
I can show you pictures if you want - IIRC a section of the fence runs near my neighborhood.
Originally posted by Rictor
Well, they make life very difficult for 
of innocent people, and thats on a daily basis. When you can't get to school, to work, to your home, or even to a hospital if you're about to give birth, that creates much anger and resentment among the Palestinian people.
Agreed. But realize that all the "permanent" checkpoints (as opposed to the temporary, 30-60 minute surprise checkpoints) are situated along the Green Line - the "border" between Israel proper and either the Gaza Strip or the West Bank. If the Palestinians got what they wanted, an independant state of their own, then that line would become an international border, and they'd have a much harder chance of crossing it.
Originally posted by Rictor
Thats true. But I'de like to see a database of all peace proposals and who did what to whom etc etc.
The latest attempt at peace, Dubya's roadmap (oh the irony), fell through because Sharon failed to comply with a number of its steps. Its insane to except your enemies to do their part when you are unwilling to do yours.
You seem to excell at finding fault with Sharon, while turning a blind eye towards the equally-guilty PLO leadership.
Originally posted by Rictor
I think the pre 1967 borders are a nice compromise. Obviously, Israel can not reasonably be expected to pick up 3 million people and leave. Despite the questionable legitimacy of the events of 1948, and the methods used to "convince" the Palestinians to move, for better or worse thats in the past. Israel would never agree to anything that brings into question the lands given to it in 1948, especially with so much blood shed over the years to protect that land, so the '67 borders seem like a compromise.
1967. 37 years ago. You want to base land "ownership" on a mere 37 years. Your grandpa - heck, most likely even your dad (don't know how old he is) could have been born on this land, but nope, it's the "Palestinians" land now. And they've only been around for what - 35 years? 50 years?
I'm not saying shove them into the sea and be done with it, don't get me wrong. But there is a nice country next door called The HaShemite Kingdom of Jordan.
Originally posted by Rictor
Equally obvious is that the Palestinian can not continue living under occupation as they are now. The situation is intolerable, so an agreement has to be reached. I find it amazing that you (and others) can not see the obvious similarities between places like Rafah and Jenin, and the ghettos during WW2, such as Warsaw. Its almost identical, literally point for point.
Jenin and Warsaw? Pfft - hardly! Let's see, did Warsaw spawn armed terrorists, hell-bent on blowing the heads off every German mother and child they could see?
Originally posted by Reez
In numerous instances, Palestinian civilians have been killed for “violating” the curfew — venturing out of doors during periods when their community was under lockdown. On June 21, four Palestinians, three of them children, were killed and 24 injured when Israeli soldiers opened fire on a market in Jenin at a time when Palestinian residents believed the curfew on the city had been lifted. -->
Quoted from:
Green Left weekly, Online Edition: http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/2002/502/502p18.htm
What is certain, though, is that hundreds of homes were destroyed by sustained artillery fire that lasted eight days, with numerous civilians, including entire families, killed and buried under the rubble of their own homes. Abdualla Shuaibi, 68, and his wife, Shams, 65, lost eight members of their family when an Israeli bulldozer clawed the second floor of their home, bringing the building down on its 10 occupants.
Quoted from: Palestine Campaign.org
http://www.palestinecampaign.org/archives.asp?xid=781
Now i realize that of the stuff in here will be propaganda. However, if you notice, I'm looking straight at figures. And from what I understand, the most threatening thing about two late-60 year olds are how visibile their hernias are in public.
It would indeed be interesting to find out exactly what did and didn't happen in Jenin and similar cases. Gross overestimations have been proven to have occurred, so I take everything - especially coming from sites such as the two above - with a hefty grain of salt.
That said, I'm not denying that the above could have happend. But I trust you'll understand why I'm not going to debate the points until I can read the other side of each incident.
Originally posted by karajorma
Name one that you can't explain away as easily as you did for the jews. And don't give me that whole Jesus is the son of God/There is no son of God bull**** again. I've already explained that one twice.
How? By saying that they have similar languages? Or by saying that Islam considers Jesus a great prophet?? Sorry,
not sufficient.
