[Rictor]

Originally posted by ionia23


Ahh, that's assuming I'm 'patriotic', which I'm not.  But I do have enough guts to stand up for what I think is right and blaming the US for the world's problems isn't one of those things.

20 years, that would put us back in...1984.  Lets see all the disgraceful things we've done:

Liberated Kuwait.  You should go to Kuwait's homepage some time to read about what they really think of the allied forces.
Crushed Saddam Hussein's regime into dust (it's all guerilla warfare now)
The Berlin Wall
Removed the Taliban from power (we've a long way to go on that)
Won the Cold War
the Strategic Arms Limitation Treaties with Russia, buying us all some time from Armageddon
The Space Program
Very nearly brought about a lasting peace in Israel/Palestine...until Arafat flaked out at the last possible minute

Ya, we're truly awful.  Everything we do is a disgrace.  mmkay.

And your Shining Administration That Does No Wrong, what has it accomplished in the last 20 years?

1. Liberated Kuwait, so that it can be ruled by an unelected and unaccountable monarch. Yay!

2. True, you did get rid of Saddam. But as long as we're back to 1984, why not also mention how you armed him against Iran.

3. If you really think that the fall of the Berlin Wall is to be attributed solely to the US's efforts, well who am I to contradict you. Other people might no think that...

4. Yeah, you removed them from power. Except they are not even close to being defeated. Huge portions of Afghanistan are still under tribal control, and it would appear they are gaining territory instead of loosing it. And as justified as it may have seemed at the time, the US and Pakstan helped arm several groups that would later become/help the Taliban...

5. Alright, I'll give you that much. Except that Bush has recently pulled out of some pretty major non-proliferation treaties, and is actively developing mini nukes.

6. While the Space Program is an achievement to be sure, I don't see how it benefited anyone. Its kind of like the pyramids in Egypt, cool to have but not realy all that useful, especialy to the 95% of the world's population living outside of America.

7. Yeah, its al the Palestinians fault. Sharon/Netanyahu/Barak/Peres tried their best, they really did....

[Ghostavo]

Originally posted by ionia23
20 years, that would put us back in...1984. Lets see all the disgraceful things we've done:

Liberated Kuwait. You should go to Kuwait's homepage some time to read about what they really think of the allied forces.
Crushed Saddam Hussein's regime into dust (it's all guerilla warfare now)
The Berlin Wall
Removed the Taliban from power (we've a long way to go on that)
Won the Cold War
the Strategic Arms Limitation Treaties with Russia, buying us all some time from Armageddon
The Space Program
Very nearly brought about a lasting peace in Israel/Palestine...until Arafat flaked out at the last possible minute

1)I'll give you that, although I need to remind of certain weapons sold to the invaders in that point!
4)I wonder who gave them the resources so they could stay in power...
5)Neutral point
6)Although you stop other countries from aquiring NBQ weapons while you hold the largest stock (by far) of all.
7)Good...
8)And then after that you completly f***** in a certain action the UN was going to take (recently, it was posted in the forums IIRC) with your VETO and continue to let Israel f*** palestinian civilians.

[ionia23]

Originally posted by Grey Wolf 2009
Let's take a look at your claims:
1. Liberated Kuwait. You're right there.
2. Crushed Saddam's regime. And you claim that guerilla warfare is better? Not to mention the fact we supported his regime for years.

Better?  No.  The overall situation?  better than it was, but with a long, long way to go.  The sooner we're out the happier I'll be


3. Berlin Wall. That would be a result of the fall of the Soviet Union, not our actions.


And Regan's encouragement.  We get to share in that.


4. Removed Taliban from power. They would never have come into power if we hadn't started ignoring Afghanistan as soon as the Soviets pulled out.


Funny that people critique American interference until it might benefit them.  I wish we'd known.

5. Won the Cold War. There were these things called Perestroika and Glasnost. Study them.


I have, or I wouldn't have said it in the first place.  maybe a better phrase would be that we all won.


6. SALT. I'll give you that, even though realistically there wasn't much chance of nuclear war by that point.


With respect, you're a fool if you believe that.  Remember Andropov?  Between Regan the Actor and Andropov The Human Computer it's a wonder any of us survived.

7. Space program. It's kind of declined over the last 20 years, as the shuttle is actually a very primitive piece of hardware.


It is.  There's so much more to be done.  This is where I want our resources invested.

8. Israel/Palestine. I'm not even going into the argument there, as I consider both sides to be doing the most foolish thing possible.

Agreed.

[pyro-manic]

Originally posted by ionia23


Ahh, that's assuming I'm 'patriotic', which I'm not.  But I do have enough guts to stand up for what I think is right and blaming the US for the world's problems isn't one of those things.

20 years, that would put us back in...1984.  Lets see all the disgraceful things we've done:

Liberated Kuwait.  You should go to Kuwait's homepage some time to read about what they really think of the allied forces.
Crushed Saddam Hussein's regime into dust (it's all guerilla warfare now)
The Berlin Wall
Removed the Taliban from power (we've a long way to go on that)
Won the Cold War
the Strategic Arms Limitation Treaties with Russia, buying us all some time from Armageddon
The Space Program
Very nearly brought about a lasting peace in Israel/Palestine...until Arafat flaked out at the last possible minute

Ya, we're truly awful.  Everything we do is a disgrace.  mmkay.

And your Shining Administration That Does No Wrong, what has it accomplished in the last 20 years?

Liberated Kuwait - yeah, but after pretty much saying to Hussein that it was OK for him to invade in the first place.

Crushed the old Iraqi regime - fair enough.

The Berlin Wall - what about it? It was Germans who tore it down, not Americans.

Removed the Taliban - fair enough, though Afghanistan is still a mess.

Won the Cold War - eh? Nobody won the cold war. The USSR spent itself out keeping pace with the US in the arms race, and Reagan spent stupid amounts of money on worthless weapons and research, pushing the country trillions into the red.

SALT - those were jointly signed, because neither side could afford to develop defense systems that could cope with multiple-warhead missiles. See previous point.

The space programme - what about it? How has it significantly benefitted the majority of humanity?

Very nearly brought about a lasting peace in Israel/Palestine - fair enough, but nobody seems very interested in reviving Oslo...

I never said that everything the US does is a disgrace, just that a lot of it is. Raping the Middle east and Venezuela for oil, pulling out of the Kyoto treaty - thereby crippling it, the aforementioned crop exports keeping millions in poverty, the Christianisation of the US penal system, the potential anti-gay marriage amendment, drilling for oil in Alaskan nature reserves, the fact that the US generates over 24% of the world's carbon emissions,  spending more money on it's military than the rest of the world combined - money that could feed and educate everyone on the planet, etc. That's the kind of stuff I find disgraceful.

As for my, uh, "shining administration" as you put it, they're a bunch of idiots, as were the previous lot. I didn't vote for them, nor will I ever. I regularly petition and protest against their actions, and I'm not impressed with them at all. The main opposition are even worse. They're going the way of the American political parties - puppets for big business.

[vyper]

Btw lads, guess whose special forces went in and took out the SCUD launchers in the first Gulf War? (and guess who didn't)

[Grey Wolf]

Hmm... Guessing from your location, it would most likely be the British special forces.

[Knight Templar]

Originally posted by vyper
Btw lads, guess whose special forces went in and took out the SCUD launchers in the first Gulf War? (and guess who didn't)

That's right, play the game, *****. Good ol' Yankees and the A-10 Warthog.

Can I get a "w00t w00t!"?

[ionia23]

So, bottom line so far from the various views I've read

1. The US isn't all bad.  They've made some great accomplishments.
2. It sure to f*** isn't that good either on the foreign policy side and has made some digusting decisions.
3. It's administration(s) seem to have a real problem with accountability

Look, Dubya is not going to be re-elected.  Don't be fooled for a moment.  he's running at a 30% approval rating right now.  Clinton's was higher while he was being impeached for crying out loud.  Barring my own conspiracy theories about announcing the 'capture' of one Osama Bin Laden prior to election day, the Bush administration is finished.  Hopefully we'll get a more wise leader next time around, probably a Democrat.

The joke goes: How come Democrats stay in power for eight years?  That's how long it takes to clear up four years of Republican control.

Don't worry about the 'gay' thing.  Change doesn't come overnight, but we're getting there.  Dubya is from a long line of old people with old ideas about what's right and wrong, the last line of a dying breed.  Some people simply believe that homosexuality is a social poison and there is nothing you can do to convince them otherwise, you simply have to wait for them to die off.  In time, the same marital benefits awarded heterosexual couples will pass at a federal level to homosexuals.  Give it time.

And for the people who've commented about the space program not benefiting humanity?  You have got to be kidding me.  That's such a retarded statement it doesn't even have to be addressed in detail.

[ionia23]

Originally posted by vyper
Btw lads, guess whose special forces went in and took out the SCUD launchers in the first Gulf War? (and guess who didn't)

No kidding.  That comes with being f*cking awesome.

[vyper]

Originally posted by Grey Wolf 2009
Hmm... Guessing from your location, it would most likely be the British special forces.

Indeed it was, it was the SAS. If we ignore the fictional version of events in Bravo Two Zero, the majority of SAS operations were successful and saved anyone else from having to go in, and also stopped Israel sending in it's own forces to deal with the SCUDS (hence avoiding an escalation in the surrounding region). (Delta Force went in the day before the war ended unluckily for them)

I just thought I'd share that since we're blowing national trumpets here just now.

[Gank]

Originally posted by ionia23
If the Israelis were conducting 'ethnic cleansing' they would have finished by now.  Their houses are not being 'demolished daily' to make room for settlers, it's current Israeli policy.  If some member of your family decides to go blow up a restaurant in Jerusalem for Allah, your home gets flattened.  Pretty simple, and totally f*cked up.

Ethnic cleansing:
the violent removal by one ethnic group of other ethnic groups from the population of a particular area: used esp. of the activities of Serbs against Croats and Muslims in the former Yugoslavia
http://www.wordreference.com/definition/ethnic+cleansing.htm
Israel evicts palestinians and demolishs their houses to make way for settlements, its not limited as a punishment for suicide bombers though thats all you'll here about on Fox.
http://www.btselem.org/English/Publications/Summaries/Policy_of_Destruction.asp
http://www.arij.org/paleye/monthley/May-04/index.htm[
http://www.arij.org/paleye/monthley/

Originally posted by ionia23
It ain't the fault of the people, though the various martyr brigades could go a long way by getting rid of the payoffs for the families of suicide bombers.  I'm all for seeing the disputed territory handed back and Jerusalem being made a World City if that's what it will take.  But the suicide bombings have simply got to stop.

You're talking like suicide bombing is the cause of all the problems, its not. Israel has been occuping Gaza and the West Bank since 1967, the first bombing in Israel took place in 1993, 26 years later. Sure they must stop, but the root cause of the problem must be addressed as well.

[ionia23]

Originally posted by vyper


Indeed it was, it was the SAS. If we ignore the fictional version of events in Bravo Two Zero, the majority of SAS operations were successful and saved anyone else from having to go in, and also stopped Israel sending in it's own forces to deal with the SCUDS (hence avoiding an escalation in the surrounding region). (Delta Force went in the day before the war ended unluckily for them)

I just thought I'd share that since we're blowing national trumpets here just now.

The Brits deserve a little trumpet blowing.  Indeed.

[ionia23]

Originally posted by Gank

You're talking like suicide bombing is the cause of all the problems, its not. Israel has been occuping Gaza and the West Bank since 1967, the first bombing in Israel took place in 1993, 26 years later. Sure they must stop, but the root cause of the problem must be addressed as well.

The ethnic cleansing issue doesn't even need to be addressed.  It's inflammatory at best, pure bull**** at worst.

Tell me, honestly.  If Israel were to hand over Jerusalem and withdraw it's territorial claims back to the border you propose, not to mention relocating all Israeli citizens living in the current occupied territories, do you really believe the bombings would stop?

[Rictor]

Given a few months, yes.

edit: on second thought, I'm not so sure. I really couldn't say, since almost everything I know of the Israel/Palestine issue comes from the media who I have reason to doubt, so....

[Ghostavo]

No, because Palestine would demand compensations for decades of opression, and Israel would answer with the suicide bombers which Palestine didn't control and the whole thing would blow out of proportion...

[ionia23]

There's never going to be a lasting peace there, is there....

[jdjtcagle]

2012!!!

[Ghostavo]

Correct... unless...

1)Someone decides to nuke BOTH sides... but then whoever does that will be at war with someone who will charge them with crimes against humanity

2)Israel nukes palestine, which would make the US and Israel go to war with the rest of the known universe.

3)Palestine nukes Israel (yeah right...) which would make the US really really pissed and nuke over whatever is left of Palestine.

4)I can't really think of anything more right now, although I know there are far more things that "could" happen, such as an0n's plan!! I hope you don't take this seriously...

[Gank]

Originally posted by ionia23
The ethnic cleansing issue doesn't even need to be addressed.  It's inflammatory at best, pure bull**** at worst.

You have a problem with english? Read the definition, then read the reports on Israels colonisation and explain why it doesnt fit. What Israel is doing in the west bank and gaza strip is ethnic cleansing, whether you want to address it or not.

Originally posted by ionia23
Tell me, honestly.  If Israel were to hand over Jerusalem and withdraw it's territorial claims back to the border you propose, not to mention relocating all Israeli citizens living in the current occupied territories, do you really believe the bombings would stop?

Yassin and Hamas offered a 30 year truce along with Islamic Jihad in return for this, Arafat and the PLO had already agreed to do this in the Oslo agreements. Israel killed Yassin and Arafat is a prisioner in his compound. Tell me honestly, do you think Israel has any intention of withdrawing fully from the occupied territories?

[Rictor]

whatever guys, you really have no clue. No can you possibly predict when/if/how the end to the conflict will come. Tell me, in 1970, did it look like the Cold War would ever finish without one side nuking the other? Of course there will be peace, its just a matter of when and how many people die in the meantime.