Author Topic: Star Trek meet Savior, Savior Meet Star Trek (JMS!)  (Read 4672 times)

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Offline ZylonBane

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Star Trek meet Savior, Savior Meet Star Trek (JMS!)
Quote
Originally posted by Tiara
Ow, so now JMS is god? You guys are just full of awesome argument :rolleyes:
JMS, unlike you, was personally involved in this situation up to his neck. So pardon the rest of us for granting his words more credence than your frothing, hand-waving naysaying.
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Offline StratComm

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Star Trek meet Savior, Savior Meet Star Trek (JMS!)
The problem I've seen with this argument is that all of the similarities are rather cosmetic.  That list of so-called similarities between the pilots doesn't really make much sense to me, especially since most of those things were seen in Star Trek before DS9 was even brought to the table.  Some are forced, others are pulled out of thin air, while some are indeed legitimate.  The prosthetics (actually most heavily pioneered for Star Wars, while we're on the subject) are common to sci-fi that relies on actors rather than special effects.  There are only so many ways to do "alien" and still have a human playing them.  And truth be told, the prosthetics on the B5 trailer are a moot point anyway, since most were completely reworked for the show.  The whole ordinally-named station thing is just plain stupid, never mind that it first appeared in Star Trek way back in the TOS days anyway.  But I'm siding with the Trek argument here, and that's not what I'm trying to do.  What I really would like to point out is that the two shows - and their stories - are very different despite some apparent similarities, and I'm not about to believe that anything was copied outright (one way or the other) without more than one person's rantings who has been connected with either project.  I'm sorry, but I don't have the esteem of JMS to let his word be the basis for a crusade.  If you want to compare the shows based on their qualities, then fine.  But this is not a worthy debate since it's going the way of ATI vs NVidia, PC-Apple, etc.  My honest opinion on the original thread subject is this: JMS does not do trek.  His style wouldn't fit.  Let him do projects where he can break his own ground, it'll be more enjoyable that way.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2004, 02:27:29 pm by 570 »
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Last edited by StratComm on 08-23-2027 at 08:34 PM

 

Offline Tiara

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Star Trek meet Savior, Savior Meet Star Trek (JMS!)
Well, while I do agree that there are similarities (as in almost ANY two sci-fi shows :p) I still don't agree that the load JMS claims is copied directly from his ideas.

Anyway, this entire debate is actually bull**** because both shows are my favorite shows :D B5 was just.... epic. As was DS9. The two stories took two completely different directions. And besides certain cosmetic similarities there are virtually NONE.

In short: Both shows are excellent. :D And this entire debate was a waste of time :p
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Offline Kazan

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Star Trek meet Savior, Savior Meet Star Trek (JMS!)
We're pointing out similiarites and influence, not that one was a rip of the other, read the words before replying to them Tiara
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Offline Tiara

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Quote
Originally posted by Kazan
We're pointing out similiarites and influence, not that one was a rip of the other, read the words before replying to them Tiara

Well, the last few replies coming from you guys were just lame. Seriously. :p

Anyway,

Quote
Well, while I do agree that there are similarities (as in almost ANY two sci-fi shows ) I still don't agree that the load JMS claims is copied directly from his ideas.

Anyway, this entire debate is actually bull**** because both shows are my favorite shows  B5 was just.... epic. As was DS9. The two stories took two completely different directions. And besides certain cosmetic similarities there are virtually NONE.

In short: Both shows are excellent.  And this entire debate was a waste of time


:p
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Offline Kazan

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*Rolleyes* You seem to keep forgetting that a brief JMS submitted for the "the new" star trek series [at that time] wasn't the final approved, but did heavily influence DS9.

B5 was mostly based off that brief.
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Offline Tiara

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Originally posted by Kazan
*Rolleyes* You seem to keep forgetting that a brief JMS submitted for the "the new" star trek series [at that time] wasn't the final approved, but did heavily influence DS9.

B5 was mostly based off that brief.

Yes, the PREMISE for DS9 was based off that. I agreed to that in this very thread. But after it actually started it took a COMPLETELY different turn then B5 did. The series are completely different despite of the fact that they were based on the same premise.

That's my whole point. I'm not ignoring the fact that JMS has influenced DS9, hell I even agreed with that :p
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Offline karajorma

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Star Trek meet Savior, Savior Meet Star Trek (JMS!)
Quote
Originally posted by Tiara
Well, while I do agree that there are similarities (as in almost ANY two sci-fi shows :p) I still don't agree that the load JMS claims is copied directly from his ideas.


You can't claim that unless you know WHAT his ideas were. What JMS pitched to paramount almost certainly wasn't B5. He was pitching the idea for a trek series. After the idea fell through he had quite a long time to alter his ideas now that he was writing his own universe and could ditch any bagage he had from TOS and TNG.

For all you know the character of Sisko could be exactly what JMS pitched to the execs. The differences that you feel are large enough to make you think that DS9 wasn't taken from B5 could be stuff that JMS added to the concept later on.

Here's a example B5 looks very different from DS9. However B5 has to rotate to provide artificial gravity. That's something that wouldn't be a consideration in a Trek series because everyone has AG. So already you can see why the two stations looking different can't be used as an arguement for why the two don't share a common ancestor. Once you decide to go for a universe in which humankind don't have AG things will start to look very different.

The other differences you point out between B5 and DS9 could very easily have evolved the same way. You only have to look at the differences between The Gathering and Midnight On The Firing Line to see how much a series can change in one year.

The point is that JMS feels that his idea was ripped off. Unless someone can produce his draft for a Trek series only himself and the execs he pitched the idea to really know what was said. Given the way both shows would mutate away from the original pitch as time passed I'm definately inclined to believe him.


Let's make this arguement clear cause it's starting to look like we're argueing at cross purposes. What I'm saying (and what Kazan and ZB are probably saying) is that DS9 is a rip-off of the ideas JMS pitched to the Paramount execs. I'm not talking about influence. Every sci-fi show has influences. I'm saying that based on what JMS said DS9 is a direct rip-off of his pitch to Paramount.

Enough of the original premise made it through into both shows to support this premise. The question is whether you agree with that statement. If you don't feel free to argue why DS9 and B5 don't share a common ancestor.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2004, 03:11:12 pm by 340 »
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Offline Tiara

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I was talking about JMS's claims stated earlier in the thread not his entire idea because we never got to see that :doubt:
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Offline karajorma

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Star Trek meet Savior, Savior Meet Star Trek (JMS!)
Well it's quite possible that in that text he quoted the stuff in his pitch that ended up in both shows. There is no point in him saying "Quantum Torpedos. They were my idea" as he has no supporting evidence but if he says "The One was my idea" and then points to Sisko and Sinclair it's a completely different point as it's no stretch to believe the two share a common ancestor.


If you pay attention to the claims posted earlier they were originally posted by JMS before The Gathering or DS9 premiered so it's obvious he wasn't saying that DS9 was a rip off of B5 since neither had aired yet.
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Offline Tiara

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Really, I don't feel like ranting all my arguments again since you still haven't disproven any of them. So let's just call it a day. It's latre over here and I'm tired.

It's not like either of us will actually change our minds because there is no solid evidence either way :p
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Offline karajorma

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I read all your arguements. They only apply to DS9 being a rip off of B5. Not to them sharing a common ancestor. I explained how a show can evolve and there is over a year between JMS's post and the first airing of either series.

Besides I don't have to disprove your arguements. You have to disprove mine since I agree with the one source we do have :p
« Last Edit: June 27, 2004, 04:48:48 pm by 340 »
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Offline Bobboau

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Star Trek meet Savior, Savior Meet Star Trek (JMS!)
the charicter for the captan of the station that JMS proposed was basicly Sinclair, his comand origonaly was going to take the whole seriese and at the end of the show he was going to acend to be the god like charicter that many believed him to be. in the end Sinclair was reworked to acend to godhood at the end of the first season, and nobody knew that he was this godlike charicter untill after he did it.
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Offline ZylonBane

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Star Trek meet Savior, Savior Meet Star Trek (JMS!)
Quote
Originally posted by Kazan
*Rolleyes* You seem to keep forgetting that a brief JMS submitted for the "the new" star trek series [at that time] wasn't the final approved, but did heavily influence DS9.
B5 was never going to be set in the Star Trek universe. There's a post in that archive I linked to that specifically refutes this notion.
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Offline Black Wolf

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Star Trek meet Savior, Savior Meet Star Trek (JMS!)
Quote
Originally posted by Tiara

It's not like either of us will actually change our minds because there is no solid evidence either way :p


Even if you accept that none of this evidence is "solid", there's still a crap load of it. One times ten is the same as ten times one.
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Offline Kosh

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But saying B5 and DS9 are really similar is just bull****


Yeah, B5 is too good to be compared with DS9. :p
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Offline Ace

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Star Trek meet Savior, Savior Meet Star Trek (JMS!)
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Originally posted by Kosh


Yeah, B5 is too good to be compared with DS9. :p


Seconded :)
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Offline Tiara

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Well, to each his own. I completely disagree with that notion.
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