[Gloriano]

Originally posted by Styxx
And who ever cared for UN resolutions? They're there now, they have the strength to control it, and that's all that matters, anything else is just whining. It's how countries grew and expanded throughout all of history, the might makes right rule has always been the only one to universally apply (types of might may vary).

If the Palestinians really want "their" land back, they should organize a rebel army and expel the Israelis by open use of force, no other means will work past this point. Political "solutions" to the problem are beyond any hope.

I agree


UN laws don't work anymore so UN need
 much stronger leadership or replacement for UN

[Styxx]

Originally posted by Gank
Amazing how the same twats who claim Israel has a right the do whatever it wants with land its captured are the first people to cry when the people whose land they're taking blow themselves up. You live by the sword you die by the sword, and Israelis are setting themselves up for a mighty fall.

And if you want to know how that fall is going to come about, read up on the worlds current oil supply.

If they want to blow themselves up, more power to them, but then they shouldn't whine when Israel retaliates by bulldozing homes and killing terrorists with missile strikes. The fact remains that suicide bombings will never change the situation, no matter how gruesome the results.

And yeah, talk about "mighty falls" all you want, your talking won't change reality: reality being that Israel has strong support from the world's most powerful nation, and that isn't about to change anytime soon. And any talk about the world's oil supply is nothing but wild speculation, seeing that we should be completely out of oil by now if we went by the eighties estimates.

[Ghostavo]

I say the UN should build an army (real one) and send it to the frontier between palestine and israel (green border, not some pretty fence)... anyone that tries to pass without autorization would be shot on site.

[Gank]

Originally posted by Styxx
If they want to blow themselves up, more power to them, but then they shouldn't whine when Israel retaliates by bulldozing homes and killing terrorists with missile strikes. The fact remains that suicide bombings will never change the situation, no matter how gruesome the results.

Ah, so you are saying the suicide bombings are justified?

Originally posted by Styxx

And yeah, talk about "mighty falls" all you want, your talking won't change reality: reality being that Israel has strong support from the world's most powerful nation, and that isn't about to change anytime soon. And any talk about the world's oil supply is nothing but wild speculation, seeing that we should be completely out of oil by now if we went by the eighties estimates.

I dont regard Israel as mighty, as a marine captain in the leb put it its a fourth rate army fighting off seventh rate armys. As for the oil, any eightys estimates I've seen give oil production hitting its peak at about 2015, which has been revised down to about 2008 now, whats you source for your statement, or are you just making it up? The reality is Israel is completely dependant on Russian oil, if and when russia finds better prices elsewhere, such as China or even the US, Israel is ****ed with a capital F. Even now Israel has had a continual energy shortage since the Iranians kicked out the Shah. Like it or no, Israels current position of dominance in unsustainable in the long run.

Btw Sandwich, if you're reading this what's your thoughts on Israels dependance on Russian oil and the Gog-Magog war?

[Styxx]

Originally posted by Gank
Ah, so you are saying the suicide bombings are justified?

No, but then, what is? If you go on that tangent, no nation in the world has a right to its own existance. Suicide bombings are the way they find to "fight back", and they have as much right to it as anyone has a right to do anything as long as they face the consequences - in this case, the retaliatory strikes, curfews, and bulldozings.

The fact that it's not helping at all never even crosses their minds.

Originally posted by Gank
I dont regard Israel as mighty, as a marine captain in the leb put it its a fourth rate army fighting off seventh rate armys. As for the oil, any eightys estimates I've seen give oil production hitting its peak at about 2015, which has been revised down to about 2008 now, whats you source for your statement, or are you just making it up? The reality is Israel is completely dependant on Russian oil, if and when russia finds better prices elsewhere, such as China or even the US, Israel is ****ed with a capital F. Even now Israel has had a continual energy shortage since the Iranians kicked out the Shah. Like it or no, Israels current position of dominance in unsustainable in the long run.

It's mighty enough, with the help of the US, to hold off any of the nations that pose a credible threat to it, and that's more than good enough. As for the oil problem, it's never gonna happen, for the same reason that military force didn't work against Israel - like it or not, they have the US behind them, and that's not likely to change.

My sources for 80s esitmates on oil are many magazine and newspaper articles I read at the time, and I can't link to them because there's no Internet archive. Alarmism in regards to oil production is just that, though - alarmism, and never went beyond that, and I'd wager that it won't for some time yet. Certainly not during our lifetimes, but that's a whole other topic.

[ionia23]

Originally posted by Styxx


No, but then, what is? If you go on that tangent, no nation in the world has a right to its own existance. Suicide bombings are the way they find to "fight back", and they have as much right to it as anyone has a right to do anything as long as they face the consequences - in this case, the retaliatory strikes, curfews, and bulldozings.

The fact that it's not helping at all never even crosses their minds.

I have to interject on this, all apologies.

You mentioned the bombings "aren't helpng at all".  Well, yes and no.

For the various "movements" hell bent on driving the Jews out of that part of the world, no, the suicide bombings don't help.  They aren't enough of them.  Israel isn't going anywhere.

For the various movements content to let Israel sit there, but want their stupid little bits of territory back, the bombings don't help there either.  Israel has more soldiers, more weaponry, more allies willing to put their money where their mouths are, etc.

For the individual who can't get a decent job to support his/her family, it does help.  It's a known fact that several of the "Martyr Brigade" movements pay some rather hefty ransoms to the families of suicide bombers.  For someone who has, in their mind, nothing to live for an an opportunity to not only go out of this life a "hero" in the eyes of their God, but to know that their family will be taken care of, it makes sense to them and probably helps...every so often.

Does that make the bombing justified?  hell no.  I think getting your home bulldozed in response is paltry by comparison.  You don't see the Israelis nerve-gassing entire camps in the Palestinian territory every single time some member of Al-Aqsa decides the best way to serve his/her country is to detonate explosives on a civilian bus.

it sounds retarded, but it would be nice if in response to these 'ransom offers', someone else could offer a greater ransom NOT to do it....

*thinks*

Oh here's a ludicrous thought.  Instead of all these tech companies in America outsourcing to Africa, India, and the Phillipines...what about outsourcing to the Palestinian territories and paying a hell of a better wage?  Give someone a reason to live and they'll stop looking for reasons to die.

(or not outsourcing at all....)

*ducks tomatoes*

[Gank]

Originally posted by Styxx
No, but then, what is? If you go on that tangent, no nation in the world has a right to its own existance. Suicide bombings are the way they find to "fight back", and they have as much right to it as anyone has a right to do anything as long as they face the consequences - in this case, the retaliatory strikes, curfews, and bulldozings.

The fact that it's not helping at all never even crosses their minds.

As has been pointed out by the few israelis on this board, it doesnt matter whether they continue the bombings or not, Israel regards their land as its own to to what it likes with, which in Israels case is ethnic cleansing and colonisation. The suicide bombings are one of the few ways of bringing the reality of the conflict to the Israeli public and as such are helping the palestinians because with or without them, Israel will still continue its actions.

Originally posted by Styxx
It's mighty enough, with the help of the US, to hold off any of the nations that pose a credible threat to it, and that's more than good enough. As for the oil problem, it's never gonna happen, for the same reason that military force didn't work against Israel - like it or not, they have the US behind them, and that's not likely to change.

The US is declining in power and influence, its economy is in a shambles and its heavily reliant on Arab oil. I wouldnt count on them backing Israel to the point where the **** themselves over.

Originally posted by Styxx
My sources for 80s esitmates on oil are many magazine and newspaper articles I read at the time, and I can't link to them because there's no Internet archive. Alarmism in regards to oil production is just that, though - alarmism, and never went beyond that, and I'd wager that it won't for some time yet. Certainly not during our lifetimes, but that's a whole other topic.

Actually even the most optimistic predictions give about 35 years, these are form the US and Saudi governments and lack figures to back them up. What you call alarmism is actually accepted fact, people are just arguing over the timing.

[Sandwich]

Originally posted by Gank
Btw Sandwich, if you're reading this what's your thoughts on Israels dependance on Russian oil and the Gog-Magog war?

Sorry, been at work for 12 hours today. Oy.

Russian oil: I don't know where we get our oil - ceeertainly didn't know it was Russian. I do know that we've found oil in the Mediterranian / Red Sea (can't recall which).

Dunno if it makes much difference, but a majority of Israel's military - at least the armored ground forces - runs off diesel, not gasoline.

Gog-Magog war: I say, bring it on. I'm getting tired of all the back-biting, accusations, international war crimes trials, threats, bombings, etc etc etc. If the Bible is true (which, as most of you know, I believe it is), then Israel is the only nation on the face of the earth with a guarantee of survival. Yeah, we'll be battered hard, but when Jesus comes back wielding the heavy end of the Hammer of God™ against all those nations who came up against Jerusalem....

...If the Bible is true. You, of course, need not subscribe.

Originally posted by Styxx
It's mighty enough, with the help of the US, to hold off any of the nations that pose a credible threat to it, and that's more than good enough.

Actually, we're "mighty" enough today to hold off any one nation that might attack us even without the help of the US, with the (obvious) exceptions of the US, China, probably Russia, and maybe India. But there's two partially-interconnected things in relation to a war that Israel cannot, under any circumstances, allow:

• A war on multiple fronts
• A battle on Israeli soil

Part of the reason Israel struck first in 67 was that first point - all her neighbors were amassing on her borders, and she cannot withstand such an assault effectively. Thus the pre-emptive strike on Egypt's (grounded and unmanned, I might add) air force.

And the second point has to do with sheer size... or rather lack thereof. Israel is so tiny that you can drive from one end of the country to the other in about 7 hours - and that's the long, north-south way. East-west, you can cross Israel by car in approx. 1 hour.

That simply leaves zero room for error.

[Gank]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A17039-2004Jun4.html

[Gank]

Originally posted by Sandwich
Russian oil: I don't know where we get our oil - ceeertainly didn't know it was Russian. I do know that we've found oil in the Mediterranian / Red Sea (can't recall which).

As of 2002 Israel imported all of its 250,000 + barrel a day needs, most of which comes from Russia. Its oil reserves were 3.8 million barrels in 2003, not sure if the mediterranian find is included in that, but with all the required industry its enough to keep yis going for 16 days

Originally posted by Sandwich
Dunno if it makes much difference, but a majority of Israel's military - at least the armored ground forces - runs off diesel, not gasoline.

Not really

Originally posted by Sandwich
Gog-Magog war: I say, bring it on. I'm getting tired of all the back-biting, accusations, international war crimes trials, threats, bombings, etc etc etc. If the Bible is true (which, as most of you know, I believe it is), then Israel is the only nation on the face of the earth with a guarantee of survival. Yeah, we'll be battered hard, but when Jesus comes back wielding the heavy end of the Hammer of God™ against all those nations who came up against Jerusalem....

But how are you going to defeat the russian horde along with the guts of the arab world if you've got no oil to run your tanks and planes? Oh yeah, god will help. Should be interesting.

Originally posted by Sandwich
Actually, we're "mighty" enough today to hold off any one nation that might attack us even without the help of the US, with the (obvious) exceptions of the US, China, probably Russia, and maybe India. But there's two partially-interconnected things in relation to a war that Israel cannot, under any circumstances, allow:

Well that 3 billion a year blank check the US keeps writing is probably the only reason you're in that position so maybe you should give them credit where its due.

Originally posted by Sandwich
Part of the reason Israel struck first in 67 was that first point - all her neighbors were amassing on her borders, and she cannot withstand such an assault effectively. Thus the pre-emptive strike on Egypt's (grounded and unmanned, I might add) air force.
 

Actually Nasser only sent two divisions into the Sinai, hardly qualifies at massing. If you want to try a realistic defense of Israels starting the war you could argue that Israel has a citizens army and couldnt keep it mobilised for ever as it cripples the economy but then as the quotes I posted earlier shows there was no real threat to Israel according to Israeli leaders at the time.

[Styxx]

Originally posted by Gank
As has been pointed out by the few israelis on this board, it doesnt matter whether they continue the bombings or not, Israel regards their land as its own to to what it likes with, which in Israels case is ethnic cleansing and colonisation. The suicide bombings are one of the few ways of bringing the reality of the conflict to the Israeli public and as such are helping the palestinians because with or without them, Israel will still continue its actions.

So, what you're saying, is that it doesn't help. The reality has been "brought to the public" many times already, and did squat. Thanks for agreeing.

Originally posted by Gank
The US is declining in power and influence, its economy is in a shambles and its heavily reliant on Arab oil. I wouldnt count on them backing Israel to the point where the **** themselves over.

Right, dream on.

Originally posted by Gank
Actually even the most optimistic predictions give about 35 years, these are form the US and Saudi governments and lack figures to back them up. What you call alarmism is actually accepted fact, people are just arguing over the timing.

Oh yeah, it's the hard and unrelenting truth when you want to keep oil prices high.

[mitac]

Originally posted by Ghostavo
I say the UN should build an army (real one) and send it to the frontier between palestine and israel (green border, not some pretty fence)... anyone that tries to pass without autorization would be shot on site.

Problem is that the UN do not have the means to do so. The UN Charter only offers military intervention through delegation to member states. But seriously : which government in which state on this planet would volunteer to do so?

[ChronoReverse]

Of course, like a lot of people, you don't realize that North America alone has enough oil reserves to fuel the oil-needs of North America (including the growth rate) for at least 50 years if all the accessible reserves were tapped.

[ionia23]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Gank
The US is declining in power and influence, its economy is in a shambles and its heavily reliant on Arab oil. I wouldnt count on them backing Israel to the point where the **** themselves over.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*laughs*

Here, let me help lift that rock you apparently seem to be living under.

[Rictor]

The Soviet Union looked like a mighty and well-oiled war machine, right up until the moment it collapsed. The US is declining in terms of power. Do you realize that if the Asian economies decided they liked the Euro better than the dollar, what a blow that would be? With (relatively) widespread opposition to globalization and neo-liberalism, a world-wide opposition to militarism and imperialsim (thank you Mr.Bush) and military overextension, I don't think its wrong to assume that its all downhill from here.

With China up and coming, the EU already strong and somewhat independent, and (I'm going to sound cliched here) the power of information via the Net (especially political weblogs and such), it would appear that the golden days of unmatched supremacy are fast winding down for the US.

...maybe I'm just an optimist...

[mitac]

I hope I get the quotes right...
---------------------------------------

Originally posted by Styxx
And who ever cared for UN resolutions?

Maybe you should have a chat with Saddam on this topic. I think he may have some experience to share.

Originally posted by karajorma
That's the irony. If everyone had come down hard on Israel the first time one was broken everyone would respect them but since Israel got away with breaking one everyone else figured they could.

It's not that simple. The average resolutions against Israel contained suggestions, appeals or, condemnations for whatever they did. Yet none of them clears the way for direct action against Israel, and you don't really believe the US as a veto power in the Security Council would have agreed to any such resolution?

Originally posted by Sandwich
...If the Bible is true. You, of course, need not subscribe.

Aye, thank god we don't.  

Originally posted by Holy Imperial Gloriano
UN laws don't work anymore so UN need
much stronger leadership or replacement for UN

I disagree. The UN law works perfectly, if the major players stick to the rules. However, it needs some corrections with regard to the votings in the Security Council, which should foremost improve the time it takes them to react to dangerous situations. Sudan or Ruanda, anyone? That's the problem with such a major organisation like the UN, respecting everybody's (= every state's) interests can be counted in deaths per minute.

[mitac]

Originally posted by Rictor
With China up and coming, the EU already strong and somewhat independent, and (I'm going to sound cliched here) the power of information via the Net (especially political weblogs and such), it would appear that the golden days of unmatched supremacy are fast winding down for the US.

Nah. I would not say the US are collapsing. While the US were the only economical superpower (fact the facts : it's all about economy) for some years after the end of the Soviet Union and the decline of Japan, there are simply some new players in the game, namely the EU and China. These to "bodies" have major differences to the SU or Japan, as the Soviets and the US sealed off their markets to each other, as did the Japanese versus the US; yet, these new parties are either deeply involved in US economy (EU) or are increasing their influence (China). It's just a new situation they - the US - need to adapt to, and I'm sure they will, though it may take them some time.

And, honestly said, they sure as hell do not need to fear Europe in its current condition, i.e. the condition of the individual member states...

[Styxx]

Originally posted by mitac
Maybe you should have a chat with Saddam on this topic. I think he may have some experience to share.

Sure, 'cause we all know that that was about UN resolutions...

[mitac]

Originally posted by Styxx


Sure, 'cause we all know that that was about UN resolutions...

Mhmm, remember Gulf War '91 (sounds almost like an album remix...)? Reading all those resolution from ~600 - ~700 is quite entertaining, they almost follow the structure of a shakesperean drama.

[Sandwich]

Originally posted by Gank
Well that 3 billion a year blank check the US keeps writing is probably the only reason you're in that position so maybe you should give them credit where its due.

Yeah, true, but I meant purely and directly military.

Originally posted by Gank
Actually Nasser only sent two divisions into the Sinai, hardly qualifies at massing. If you want to try a realistic defense of Israels starting the war you could argue that Israel has a citizens army and couldnt keep it mobilised for ever as it cripples the economy but then as the quotes I posted earlier shows there was no real threat to Israel according to Israeli leaders at the time.

Uhh.... wrong about the number of divisions... 7 to Israel's 3.

The Wikipedia is - as always - a very good read on the 6 Day War.

[q]Israeli forces concentrated on the border with Egypt included 3 divisions, which consisted of 9 brigades, of which 5 were armored; there were also three reserve brigades. The Egyptian forces consisted of 7 divisions, five of them infantry and two armored. Four infantry divisions were near the Eyptian-Israeli border in the Sinai, an infantry and an armored division in central Sinai, and a second armored division in the west. In addition, a reinforced brigade (with 200 tanks) under Colonel Shazly was deployed in the southern Sinai with orders to encircle Eilat in the case of war. Overall, Egypt had over 100,000 troops and 1000 tanks in the Sinai, backed by an appropriate number of artillery guns. This arrangement was based on the Soviet doctrine, where mobile armor units at strategic depth provide a dynamic defense while infantry units engage in defensive battles at the border.[/q]

And you seem to think that the 6 Day War was only between Egypt and Israel. It was Egypt, Jordan, Syria, and a few Iraqi forces against Israel.

Anyway, the point is, don't belligrently mass your military forces on Israel's borders, or you're gonna get yourself in a world of trouble.